|
ProfessorCirno posted:I actually thought it should recharge a bit faster then Edge, since it's far more limited. Or maybe whenever you get one edge back, you get all your pool? I'd need a name since "limit" is, er, the opposite of what it is now, hahaha.  . Although players shouting LIMIT BREAK every time would probably enjoy it.Recharge wise, I will integrate it into our current house rule of edge refresh amount = your lifestyle level. I will probably limit this to players only, so that they will have an edge over npc that pretty much have the same stat as the players in our street-level gang game. Nyaa fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Mar 16, 2014 |
#
?
Mar 16, 2014 18:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 16:05 |
|
|
I mean, keep in mind playstyle, which not everyone would be into (hilariously not plenty of people on the Shadowrun forums!). I vastly prefer a more "cinematic" style that would reward pushing your limits and getting a bit crazy with things. The way I see it, when the game is running silent, it's still got style. When it gets loud, it turns into an action movie (Hong Kong style, if adepts are involved). Fights can still be fast and messy, but that doesn't mean you can't get all Sleeping Dogs about it. You can have a plan, but if you can't think outside the plan, you're doomed if things go wrong (and things should probably go wrong, or else your team has spent far too much time planning and not enough time playing).
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2014 19:04
|
|
|
Seriously though, spoilers: a lot of Shadowrun fans apparently like their games boring and hell and banal in every way. "Limits are fine because rolling hot doesn't matter. Like what if you're jumping over a small hole? When would rolling hot help you there???" That is a literal example used. Jumping a small hole! Excitement! And if you fail, you may take a point of stun damage! Or the other example, picking a lock with no time limit! Thrilling!
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2014 19:12
|
|
|
Going by your idea, how about these limit break dices can only be accessed when a player takes a risk, pushing their luck/limit, or rp their actions in style? I think it would encourage them to work for a more visible bonus dice.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2014 19:16
|
|
|
ProfessorCirno posted:Seriously though, spoilers: a lot of Shadowrun fans apparently like their games boring and hell and banal in every way. "Limits are fine because rolling hot doesn't matter. Like what if you're jumping over a small hole? When would rolling hot help you there???" The thing is that if you didn't play SR2 or SR3, you're not really going to grasp why Limits exist and are a good idea. The problem they're intended to fix is the age-old one of characters having such extreme dice pools that they can reliably one-shot tanks with a holdout pistol on sheer average successes. I see them as much more in place as a restriction on character generation philosophy than gameplay, as they are intended to put a massive crimp on the design philosophy that says 'bigger dice pool is always better than'.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2014 20:12
|
|
|
Liquid Communism posted:The thing is that if you didn't play SR2 or SR3, you're not really going to grasp why Limits exist and are a good idea. The problem they're intended to fix is the age-old one of characters having such extreme dice pools that they can reliably one-shot tanks with a holdout pistol on sheer average successes. I see them as much more in place as a restriction on character generation philosophy than gameplay, as they are intended to put a massive crimp on the design philosophy that says 'bigger dice pool is always better than'. It's kind of a clumsy patch to try and stick on a game that explicitly rewards players for stacking massive amounts of dice in a pool, though. If you don't want people thinking "more dice equals more better" then maybe you should look into fixing the fundamental issues of a system that equates a single degree of success to three dice on average and then requires multiple degrees of success for things like "shoot and kill a man" or "hack things and not waste your turn." Like, if you want to put a restriction on character generation philosophy then just loving say "dice pools can't be bigger than X at chargen" rather than sticking some sort of passive-aggressive mechanic on top of things.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2014 00:01
|
|
|
Trip report on the pig hijack - after a lot of phone calls to contacts they flew in to Louisiana in a modified-for-distance cropduster, landed in a field and ganked a farmer for his pickup truck and rolled into Baton Rouge. Apart from some unwelcome attention from the local deputy about a human, an ork and an elf sharing a hotel room they were very private about the contents of (they successfully conned him into thinking they were just gay birdwatchers) their set-up was uneventful. They set up camp in the side of the road in preparation for the ambush with three stolen cars. The hacker spent six hours immobile while trying to hack one of the scout vehicles of the convoy remotely while it was on it's way from Miami and ended up having a colony of centipedes set up camp in his pants while he laid unconscious in their roadside campsite, but managed a success from his single dice of defaulted agility+unarmed to avoid a world of unpleasantness. That was the closest they came to disaster, since between an inside man they secured last session, a perfect T-bone from one of the stolen cars and a hell of a lot of good rolls with Ex-Ex rounds they were fortunate enough to acquire during setup, they managed to clean up all opposition within two rounds of combat, without even using their back-up plans involving detcord wrapped around roadside trees, potholes full of explosives and drones with missile launchers. But given it was four hours of preparation before a single shot was fired in anger, they earned it. Now they've got their ranged street sam camping out in the back with the drones and a whole bunch of nervous pigs, and the rigger and the melee/face adept up front. One of the scout cars has been taken by the turncoat and the other has been sent into the woods via it's hacked dogbrain and one of the stolen cars now has a mimic chip broadcasting the convoy's ID on a different route. They're planning to blaze a trail from Baton Rouge to LA via the PCC and charter or steal a boat to transport the pigs to Seattle from there. They've got a history with the LA 'runner scene (they killed a shark-themed, heavily 'wared Runner who decided against paying the bill for said 'ware) so that should be fun. Plus I've mapped out where the especially dangerous, venomous and contagious pigs are and will be keeping track of where their maneuvers take them when they start encountering go-gangs, rival runners, Lone Star and corporate retrieval squads. Next session should be eventful.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2014 00:04
|
|
|
ProfessorCirno posted:I mean, keep in mind playstyle, which not everyone would be into (hilariously not plenty of people on the Shadowrun forums!). I vastly prefer a more "cinematic" style that would reward pushing your limits and getting a bit crazy with things. The way I see it, when the game is running silent, it's still got style. When it gets loud, it turns into an action movie (Hong Kong style, if adepts are involved). Fights can still be fast and messy, but that doesn't mean you can't get all Sleeping Dogs about it. You can have a plan, but if you can't think outside the plan, you're doomed if things go wrong (and things should probably go wrong, or else your team has spent far too much time planning and not enough time playing). Man, that would be awesome. I just want fights to be like Hard Boiled and/or The Raid: Redemption.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2014 02:11
|
|
|
Kai Tave posted:It's kind of a clumsy patch to try and stick on a game that explicitly rewards players for stacking massive amounts of dice in a pool, though. If you don't want people thinking "more dice equals more better" then maybe you should look into fixing the fundamental issues of a system that equates a single degree of success to three dice on average and then requires multiple degrees of success for things like "shoot and kill a man" or "hack things and not waste your turn." Oh, I'm not going to argue with you there. It's a kludge. I generally solved the problem in my games by making a wide variety of skills necessary to succeed, so min-maxed one trick ponies didn't do well at the table.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2014 02:14
|
|
|
I would have thought that accuracy limits on guns would mean that once you're high-level, everyone ends up using the same gun - the one with most accuracy.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2014 13:12
|
|
|
Well without accuracy limits most people are going to be using the same guns anyway. Like, there's basically no reason to not use an Ares Predator if you're in the market for a heavy pistol because it has the highest ammunition capacity, the highest damage, is no less concealable than any other heavy handgun despite regularly being depicted as the length of someone's forearm, and comes with one of the best gun mods built right in. In SR5 they at least changed it so that it wasn't also one of the cheapest guns in the game but below a certain threshold the difference in price between a gun that costs $500 and one that costs $900 is so trifling as to be completely meaningless unless you're playing in some sort of extreme poverty challenge campaign or something.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2014 13:20
|
|
|
They went ahead and broke in in Gun H(e)aven 3 right after release with the Rain Forest Carbine. A long arm that does sniper rifle damage out of an assault carbine, with a legality and availability below that of an Ares Alpha. Ultimax Rain Forest Carbine (SR5) Acc 7, Dam 14P, AP -4, Mode SA, RC (1), Ammo 18©, Avail 5R, Cost 2,800 Standard Upgrades/Accessories: Imaging Scope (w/ flare compensation, image link, low-light vision), Retractable Stock Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 14:21 on Mar 17, 2014 |
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2014 14:18
|
|
|
Wiz, why would I ever want anything else? Why can't you get tazers as a cybergun? How the hell does bone lacing, orthoskin or dermal plates work if you have a cyber limb? Or two? Or two cyber arms, two cyber legs, a cyber skull and a cyber torso? Does the metal body lose the armor bonus since it's... weaker than the reinforced flesh? Can you coat the metal "bones" with plastic to get the +1 from bone lacing? Can you put dermal plates on your cyber body if you have synthetic limbs with the fake skin? Argh! It's all driving me crazy! Poil fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Mar 17, 2014 |
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2014 18:44
|
|
|
Poil posted:Wiz, why would I ever want anything else? Because you can get a cyber holdout with Stick & Shock ammo, I'm assuming. quote:How the hell does bone lacing, orthoskin or dermal plates work if you have a cyber limb? Or two? Or two cyber arms, two cyber legs, a cyber skull and a cyber torso? Does the metal body lose the armor bonus since it's... weaker than the reinforced flesh? Can you coat the metal "bones" with plastic to get the +1 from bone lacing? Can you put dermal plates on your cyber body if you have synthetic limbs with the fake skin? Argh! It's all driving me crazy! Dermal plates cover the torso, and attacks are assumed as aiming for center of mass by default. Cyberlimbs can't take any kind of augmentation that doesn't have a capacity cost, so if I'm not mistaken all of those are incompatible with cyberlimbs.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2014 23:52
|
|
|
The actual answer regarding 'ware is "because these rules are too loving complex and vaguely  as is, please do not them more terrible and accept the abstractions"
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2014 00:05
|
|
|
I thought it was, "These rules describe 'ware appropriate for an average human--before installing any cyberware, consult your cyberphysician." And he'd say your bones are metal, don't wrap plastic around them you dumb, let's just install these new nanoplates in your cyberlimb's circulatory system that respond to signals from the skin by quickly lining up to diffuse bullet impacts, or whatever. But then, I've always been vaguely distressed by gear porn in general.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2014 00:22
|
|
|
It's LITERALLY what I said, though, that cyberlimbs cannot hold bioware, or cyber-implants that do not have a capacity cost. Can't tell you the page number because I'm at work. Which makes sense, why would your arm that has no skin benefit from plates implanted in the skin? the whole point is thaT it's not part of your body.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2014 02:09
|
|
|
My question would be why your question, because I don't think the rules at any point interact with this. There aren't locational hits and poo poo, you just roll vs overall armor and roll overall soak. Like, "But does the arm benefit from my new bones?" literally does not come up in-game outside of one or two super niche places.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2014 03:00
|
|
|
That's what's puzzling me as well. SR5's abstractions don't break it down that far. Hence why cyberlimb armor stacks with your overall armor rating, because shot locations don't matter. The closest they get to caring is the bit about being able to apply cyberlimb strength bonuses requiring being able to use that limb for the task, but even that is explicitly a GM call that notes it should be allowed unless obviously impossible.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2014 03:20
|
|
|
Well, with cyberlimb armor, you can kinda shift a bit, even inadvertently, and a shot that is going for center of mass can hit your arm or something while you're trying to dodge. Since, unless specified with a Called Shot, they are assumed to aim for center of mass. If someone makes a Cybertech roll and sees the target's cyberarms don't have any extra plating, why not shoot at those and disable their offense? Dermal plating doesn't even go on your arms anyway, it's only on your torso.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2014 08:40
|
|
|
Personally I think the main issue with cyberlimb armor is that a) 3 is a lot (remember, full body armor helmet is 2) and b) you can get it on partial cyberlimbs.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2014 08:43
|
|
|
My gm pointed this out to me the last time I talked to him. Compare rating 3 synaptic booster and rating 3 deltaware wired reflexes. SB is 285'000 nuyen, 1,5 essence and 18 availability WR is 542'000 nuyen, 2,5 essence and 28 availability  Even if you only get wired reflexes betaware it is still more expensive and difficult to find on top of a taking a lot more essence. Wasn't bioware supposed to be the rarer one? Doc Dee posted:Because you can get a cyber holdout with Stick & Shock ammo, I'm assuming. quote:Dermal plates cover the torso, I know about the capacity/limb thing. But if my character has orthoskin, how many cyberlimbs can I get while still retaining the bonus? For example my current build has orthoskin and two cyber arms (+2 armor on the right one), does that still count? What if I get a cyber torso? The legs and head are still covered by it, right? Is there a tipping point, other than perhaps when there is no organic skin left? Or is that a torso only thing too? Sorry, I think I'm just overthinking it all. 
Poil fucked around with this message at 12:35 on Mar 18, 2014 |
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2014 12:30
|
|
|
Poil posted:Sorry, I think I'm just overthinking it all. You kind of are, yeah. The answer to "how many cyberlimbs can I take and still use orthoskin/dermal plating/bone lacing" is "it doesn't matter because the game doesn't care to take anything like that into account." Take one limb, take all four, the result is the same. This is frankly one bit of abstraction I'm okay with since the alternative sounds like way more annoying busywork than I generally care for.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2014 13:05
|
|
|
Kai Tave posted:Take one limb, take all four, the result is the same. You're thinking too small. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2014 13:48
|
|
|
Poil posted:My gm pointed this out to me the last time I talked to him. Compare rating 3 synaptic booster and rating 3 deltaware wired reflexes. Well, yes. You're using beta/deltaware. That's really not that great of a comparison. Compare standard to standard and you'll notice the difference drat fast. Sure, the bioware looks really nice from the essence point of view - it'll probably always be cheaper in essence then the chrome. You buy chrome because it's cheap.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2014 14:28
|
|
|
Poil posted:Sorry, I think I'm just overthinking it all. You are overthinking that poo poo by about six miles and 1,000 words. The system doesn't support the level of detail you're trying to extrapolate, that's all.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2014 14:28
|
|
|
The answer to these questions is 'ask your GM'. The rulebook doesn't and arguably shouldn't spend hundreds of pages covering every conceivable edge case because tabletop gaming means there's always an available arbiter.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2014 15:16
|
|
|
You guys are right, thanks.  I'll need to discuss it more with my gm it seems. Poil fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Mar 18, 2014 |
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2014 15:24
|
|
|
Can anyone give me some ideas for a rigger specialized towards being overwatch/get away driver? I know it's not the greatest because of no vehicle upgrades but my gm is going to work with me on those.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2014 15:47
|
|
|
TheKingslayer posted:Can anyone give me some ideas for a rigger specialized towards being overwatch/get away driver? I know it's not the greatest because of no vehicle upgrades but my gm is going to work with me on those. Purchase ice cream van. Add smuggling compartments. At least one human/elf sized. Add guns. More guns than that. Still more. Retrofit ice cream speaker to play Yakety Sax.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2014 15:52
|
|
|
Hey now I want some Doc Oct arms. Has there ever been anything like this in older editions?
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2014 15:52
|
|
|
Not really hard to justify 3 armor on a cyberlimb. It's not the equivilent of armor clothes over your arm, it's a mostly small arms proof arm you can hold in front of your body. Arms cover a lot of where people are aiming, and legs are like half of your silhoette. Cybertorsos and heads clearly can't pack in as much armor, as they have to keep your organs intact inside them.* Partial limbs are a little silly, I feel, as is folding them in with fill cyberlimb rules. Hands should just be like cybereyes, a thing to stuff goodies in, rather than having their own stats and such, and partial limbs should just be a cyberlimb, and not something separate. But, gearporn. *Justifications sourced from my rear end. TheKingslayer posted:Can anyone give me some ideas for a rigger specialized towards being overwatch/get away driver? I know it's not the greatest because of no vehicle upgrades but my gm is going to work with me on those. Get a black van full of commgear and spy equipment that launches spy drones disguised as pidgeons out of the roof. Your poo poo hits the fan combat drones should also be pidgeons, but far more poorly disguised. Bonus points for giving them all the ability to drop tracking devices in the form of a chip in white glue. You could also go for maximum pidgeon with a pidgeon themed callsign and bird puns until your group threatens to hit you. I don't know how this idea got here, but I think it went a good place.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2014 16:12
|
|
|
TheKingslayer posted:Can anyone give me some ideas for a rigger specialized towards being overwatch/get away driver? I know it's not the greatest because of no vehicle upgrades but my gm is going to work with me on those. Assuming you're just gonna adapt the stuff from 4th, van with chameleon coating is king. Corporate logos in good neighbourhoods, Nabo album cover mural in bad ones. If you're in a coastal town, amphibious operation and life support combined make for an expensive but incredibly handy extra set of options for your mothership.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2014 16:33
|
|
|
bunnielab posted:Hey now I want some Doc Oct arms. Has there ever been anything like this in older editions? Only thing I can think of is maybe the cardgame (there was a cardgame back in the day??), I've seen a picture of a card for Hatchetman that says "ignore number of limbs restriction for cyberware" or something similar. Because I guess your Essence automatically rejects any limbs outside of the standard configuration? EDIT: Found it. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2014 16:37
|
|
|
Deviant posted:Purchase ice cream van. You don't know how bad I want to play Sweet Tooth in the year of our cyber lord 2072. Chameleon van sounds like a good start though. Buying gear and cyber is what I'm not totally sure on. I know a control rig is happening.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2014 16:41
|
|
|
TheKingslayer posted:You don't know how bad I want to play Sweet Tooth in the year of our cyber lord 207 Fixed that. Also, probably Reaction Enhancers (or Wired Reflexes if you're also planning on COMBAT), and Cerebral Boosters since apparently it's still not clear if shooting while jumped in uses Agility or Logic, and it'd be good to be safe. If you're controlling a drone with remote control, then it's definitely Logic.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2014 17:23
|
|
|
bunnielab posted:Hey now I want some Doc Oct arms. Has there ever been anything like this in older editions? Now that I think of it, nothing in the rules say that when you buy a cyberlimb you have to chop off the old one first. And it's not like allowing you to have three or more arms would impact game balance much, since with the way the action economy is set up triple/quad wielding would require you to split your pools just like dual wielding. At most you'd save a bit on simple actions when doing miscellaneous stuff like opening doors or juggling specialist equipment due to having more hands to to do stuff with without requiring you to shuffle your gear around.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2014 19:21
|
|
|
Fourth edition Runners Companion have rules for the SURGE (don't ask, I'm not entirely sure) stuff and one of the bonuses you can pick is Shiva Arms, up to two extra pairs. You could use that and replace all with cyber arms.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2014 19:59
|
|
|
bunnielab posted:Hey now I want some Doc Oct arms. Has there ever been anything like this in older editions? You need a VCR, then. Build the arms as drones with dog brains, operate in captain's seat all the time. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2014 21:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 16:05 |
|
|
bunnielab posted:Hey now I want some Doc Oct arms. Has there ever been anything like this in older editions? Third edition (when they first introduced Hatchetman as the first Cyberzombie) introduced gun mounts that were basically arms that had a gun mounted on the end. There was no hard limit to how many you could install, and if you slapped a tactical computer, mapsoft, and a GPS (high tech at the time) in your cyborg along with a dozen or so sensory enhancements like low light vision and super taste, you could walk into a room and instantly murder everyone in it with your ten spider arm mounted assault rifles. It was a better use for a cyberzombie than stacking strength, certainly. Poil posted:Fourth edition Runners Companion have rules for the SURGE (don't ask, I'm not entirely sure) Sudden Unexplained Regressive Genetic Expression Basically you turn, partially or fully, into some obscure Earthdawn monster because of a comet.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2014 22:07
|
|