|
Tjadeth posted:The especially fun thing about that OKCupid thread is the interlude halfway in where (exclusively) men got all snide about (mostly) women saying they wouldn't kiss on the first few dates and that the first date doesn't count as a date so much as it is a method by which to figure out if your date is a crazy person, because "does it really take you an entire date to figure out whether or not they're psycho? I'm sure random people from the internet are by-and-large safe for kissing and related activities. I mean, I've never had any problems" I was feeling bad about missing that advice, but 
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2014 05:07
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 2, 2024 10:11 |
|
|
The reason piv is the real deal as opposed to just counting catching dome is it owns a lot more.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2014 06:18
|
|
|
Ratoslov posted:I was feeling bad about missing that advice, but There was still a lot of good sense advice as far as I remember, so yes, at least the OP of this thread is a loss. I feel Tjadeth is overinflating a bad occurence. Tjadeth posted:I am an adult virgin because twenty-something men are loving morons Hard to take the post seriously with that.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2014 06:34
|
|
|
Zokalwe posted:Hard to take the post seriously with that. Oh, sorry. *Most* twenty-something men are loving morons, specifically in relation to not making any effort to understand women. And I am an adult virgin due to my own raging misanthropy. Like, I am basically joking, but if I had a quarter for every time a guy friend was like, "Hey, stand up to that guy hassling you on the subway, what's the worst that could happen?", I'd still have a lot of loving quarters. There did seem to be a lot of decent advice in that thread, though--the basics about how to pose your profile pictures, what not to say in your about me section. That part just stood out to me, given how the thread ended. Tjadeth fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Mar 16, 2014 |
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2014 15:23
|
|
|
Tjadeth posted:Oh, sorry. *Most* twenty-something men are loving morons, specifically in relation to not making any effort to understand women. And I am an adult virgin due to my own raging misanthropy. Like, I am basically joking, but if I had a quarter for every time a guy friend was like, "Hey, stand up to that guy hassling you on the subway, what's the worst that could happen?", I'd still have a lot of loving quarters. Or maybe a few assholes stand out. Or maybe you're surrounding yourselves with bad people. Most guys I know would empathize with the "guy hassling you in the subway" thing, even if of course they can't fully understand what they haven't experienced themselves. It took me some time (and some kind of first-hand experience) to apprehend how common it was and how obnoxious some guys could be in those circumstances. A lot of my female friend have no idea about what making the first move is ("oh, I'm sure I could do it if I was 100% sure he is interested") and can't fathom why it could be hard for anybody, I don't consider it makes *most* women in their 20-something morons. Hell, without even taking it to women vs men, a lot of people struggle to understand people. And, granted, some don't even try, not only 20-something men.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2014 16:33
|
|
|
Zokalwe posted:Or maybe you're surrounding yourselves with bad people. Entirely possible; I think I heard one unironically use the term "friendzone" once. Zokalwe posted:A lot of my female friend have no idea about what making the first move is ("oh, I'm sure I could do it if I was 100% sure he is interested") and can't fathom why it could be hard for anybody, I don't consider it makes *most* women in their 20-something morons. Man, but that's a lovely equivalence. Goes right back to that whole "men are afraid women will laugh at them, women are afraid men will kill them" thing. If you want to talk about advice that men and women alike could be side-eyeing as dangerous to their future and/or health, take a ride on the "lol but what's wrong with dating someone with opposing political views?" train. For every woman worried about dating a fundie who doesn't understand the concept of marital rape, there oughta be a guy worried about knocking up a pro-lifer.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2014 17:07
|
|
|
Tjadeth posted:For every woman worried about dating a fundie who doesn't understand the concept of marital rape Is this a common thing that women worry about when considering the political views of potential partners?
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2014 17:43
|
|
|
Tjadeth, have you ever considered the fact that you fear for your safety that often is unhealthy? You're kind of giving me the impression that you're scared that the world/men are out to assault/rape/kill you. Have you considered taking self defense classes to help feel confident in your ability to defend yourself?
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2014 18:06
|
|
|
EN Bullshit posted:Is this a common thing that women worry about when considering the political views of potential partners? The phrasing of "marital rape" was more of a failed attempt to gloss over the whole concept of "is a conservative guy not going to agree with me that I have a right to say 'wait, stop' in the middle of sex if he feels like continuing? Is he going to believe that women aren't really supposed to enjoy sex, that it's something 'given up', so it's something he believes is owed to him after paying for a date?" Obviously there are liberal men who behave like that, and conservative men who don't, but a lot of the right-leaning men I know are kind of... lacking empathy? So I would probably have generalized, unspecific concerns to start out with, even if they weren't actually about rape. I can't say how many women DO leap right to being concerned about rape, as opposed to, like, "Is a homeschooled conservative guy going to know what a clitoris is?" Some of the women I know (mostly not virgins, and some of whom have actually faced assault) have admitted to viewing conservativism as a red flag for potential date rape-y mindsets, but a lot of my friends also have anxiety disorders and worry about goddamn everything, so I don't know if the "average" woman considers politics to be a warning sign. I also don't know how I've ended up serious-posting here. drat this honeypot of a thread.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2014 18:15
|
|
|
FoolyCharged posted:Tjadeth, have you ever considered the fact that you fear for your safety that often is unhealthy? You're kind of giving me the impression that you're scared that the world/men are out to assault/rape/kill you. Have you considered taking self defense classes to help feel confident in your ability to defend yourself? I'm pretty fine with my own safety. I do know for certain that every female friend I have ever discussed this with takes potential dangers into account when going out 1) at night, 2) alone, in underpopulated places, or 3) alone but with a male stranger. My best friend has a stabby-cat keychain. I sometimes carry pepper spray, but not often, because I don't want it to go off in my purse and then my cell phone smells like pepper for a month. I know some women who do the whole "if I don't call you by 7:00 to let you know I've made it back from my date all right, check in with me to make sure I'm not in the dude's trunk" thing, which I think is a little excessive, but I don't know their life, I guess. EDIT: When I said that twenty-something men are morons, what I meant is that it gets really tiring when my male friends don't understand that I have to take my own safety into account, or think that I'm being excessive about it. And I guess you could be right, but then my friends tell me their horror stories about being molested or raped, and I'll be sitting there thinking, "Jesus, I would never follow a guy I only kind of know back into his house," and, well. I guess I'd rather be paranoid than traumatized? It's a hard balance to strike. EDIT #2: why do I even try to explain things when the internet exists Tjadeth fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Mar 16, 2014 |
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2014 18:21
|
|
|
Tjadeth posted:I'm pretty fine with my own safety. I do know for certain that every female friend I have ever discussed this with takes potential dangers into account when going out 1) at night, 2) alone, in underpopulated places, or 3) alone but with a male stranger. My best friend has a stabby-cat keychain. I sometimes carry pepper spray, but not often, because I don't want it to go off in my purse and then my cell phone smells like pepper for a month. Fair enough, looks like I just mistook a few statements from you as the whole picture. Those are all occasions where anyone, regardless of their gender(or that of the stranger in #3), should be safety conscious.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2014 18:28
|
|
|
FoolyCharged posted:Fair enough, looks like I just mistook a few statements from you as the whole picture. Those are all occasions where anyone, regardless of their gender(or that of the stranger in #3), should be safety conscious. as i man i can honestly say that i don't carry pepper spray in case i find myself alone with a woman
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2014 18:47
|
|
|
Isotropic posted:as i man i can honestly say that i don't carry pepper spray in case i find myself alone with a woman You probably don't for a man either, but if you're in a seedy part of town a woman can pull a knife on you just as easy as a man can. e: VVVVVVVVVVVV This is getting kind of derail-y because I wasn't clear on what I was addressing. My initial concern was simply that she might have been overly defensive given that all she had said were two examples one of which didn't involve romance at all. Her response indicated that I jumped to conclusions (because I did) and that her safety concerns do not in fact rule her life other than standard run of the mill stuff that everyone should take into account. I wasn't trying to say that women aren't less capable than men at defending themselves, I was trying to say, "ok, I jumped to conclusions. You're safety mindedness doesn't seem over the top, and likely isn't the cause of that anger/irritation(towards the male 20s)". FoolyCharged fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Mar 16, 2014 |
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2014 19:09
|
|
|
Considering the statistics on the number of women murdered by current or previous partners I don't think men and women need to worry in equal amounts.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2014 19:12
|
|
|
Tjadeth posted:Entirely possible; I think I heard one unironically use the term "friendzone" once. Tjadeth posted:Man, but that's a lovely equivalence. Goes right back to that whole "men are afraid women will laugh at them, women are afraid men will kill them" thing. If you want to talk about advice that men and women alike could be side-eyeing as dangerous to their future and/or health, take a ride on the "lol but what's wrong with dating someone with opposing political views?" train. For every woman worried about dating a fundie who doesn't understand the concept of marital rape, there oughta be a guy worried about knocking up a pro-lifer. Granted, I pointed to some benign concern, but my point was more "because someone has trouble understanding your problems, does not make them total morons" (and certainly not the whole category they belong to). You gave a better example yourself. The advices that depressed people get from people who never experienced depression and have only preconceptions about it is also an example and is not gender-charged. Zokalwe fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Mar 16, 2014 |
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2014 19:41
|
|
|
Welp. Had a panic attack before the second date, but managed to make vaguely human conversation on the way to the movie, where he proceeded to drape his arm about my shoulders and want me to put my head on his shoulder, which accomplished nothing but giving me a crick in my neck. He also kept squeezing my arm with his other hand. Then we held hands for a while, but he wasn't content to just hold hands. He kept rubbing his thumb on my thumb, which I found distracting. He tried to French kiss me before I got out of his car, which made me freak out because I find the whole concept disgusting. Said goodnight, went inside, had a low-grade panic attack. Dude's a libertarian, too. I don't want to stop dating him just because of that, and as my sister said, the more I isolate myself from physical intimacy, the more I'll build it up into this horrifying and strange thing. I'm going to see a therapist on Wednesday. I hope they can help.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2014 04:43
|
|
|
Pinball posted:Welp. Had a panic attack before the second date, but managed to make vaguely human conversation on the way to the movie, where he proceeded to drape his arm about my shoulders and want me to put my head on his shoulder, which accomplished nothing but giving me a crick in my neck. He also kept squeezing my arm with his other hand. Then we held hands for a while, but he wasn't content to just hold hands. He kept rubbing his thumb on my thumb, which I found distracting. He tried to French kiss me before I got out of his car, which made me freak out because I find the whole concept disgusting. Said goodnight, went inside, had a low-grade panic attack. Dude's a libertarian, too. In this case I think ending due to libertarianism is the right course of action. (all cases of libertarianism really)
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2014 04:51
|
|
|
Pinball posted:Welp. Had a panic attack before the second date, but managed to make vaguely human conversation on the way to the movie, where he proceeded to drape his arm about my shoulders and want me to put my head on his shoulder, which accomplished nothing but giving me a crick in my neck. He also kept squeezing my arm with his other hand. Then we held hands for a while, but he wasn't content to just hold hands. He kept rubbing his thumb on my thumb, which I found distracting. He tried to French kiss me before I got out of his car, which made me freak out because I find the whole concept disgusting. Said goodnight, went inside, had a low-grade panic attack. Dude's a libertarian, too. Also, gently caress libertarians.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2014 05:09
|
|
|
Pinball posted:Welp. Had a panic attack before the second date, but managed to make vaguely human conversation on the way to the movie, where he proceeded to drape his arm about my shoulders and want me to put my head on his shoulder, which accomplished nothing but giving me a crick in my neck. He also kept squeezing my arm with his other hand. Then we held hands for a while, but he wasn't content to just hold hands. He kept rubbing his thumb on my thumb, which I found distracting. He tried to French kiss me before I got out of his car, which made me freak out because I find the whole concept disgusting. Said goodnight, went inside, had a low-grade panic attack. Dude's a libertarian, too. If you don't dig the guy it's fine to cut it off here. If you do dig the guy and it was just a panic attack then you might be able to just explain yourself (fewer words = better) but if you're not into him you shouldn't feel pressured to move on with it just because of the virgoon factor. How do you actually feel about the guy?
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2014 05:13
|
|
|
Pinball posted:He tried to French kiss me before I got out of his car, which made me freak out because I find the whole concept disgusting. Am I misreading this? This woman is disgusted by the concept of French kissing and people are thinking the dude's libertarianism is a problem?
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2014 05:23
|
|
|
solovyov posted:Am I misreading this? This woman is disgusted by the concept of French kissing and people are thinking the dude's libertarianism is a problem? No, you're not. I know it's a really weird issue to have and a huge problem if I ever want to have a long-term thing, which I do. I'm excruciatingly aware that my reactions aren't normal and that my level of fear isn't normal, and I want, very badly, to be normal and have a normal relationship. Of course I would like to not be freaked out by it, but unfortunately my reaction is fearful. Hopefully therapy will help! Pinball fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Mar 17, 2014 |
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2014 05:30
|
|
|
Eep, yeah. Were you enjoying yourself at all? You absolutely do not have to do anything that makes you uncomfortable!!! Seriously, no obligations. None of it should feel forced. I am just not a touchy person, and I never will be, especially in public. Trying to cuddle or hold hands or whatever in movie seats is physically uncomfortable too. If you do actually like him, let him know if he's going too fast for you. Even something as simple as "Hey, can we slow it down a bit?" And if you're not that into him, end it. You'll find someone else. It's great that you are pushing through your anxieties. I hope your next date goes better. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2014 05:30
|
|
|
It looks to my virgoon eyes that the dude tried to get too physical too fast more than anything else. What may have seemed like sweet, comforting, and romantic to him came off as creepy, grabby and off-putting to her. Plus, French kissing as a concept can seem pretty unappealing until you find the right person to do it with- and then, you really aren't thinking too much about the mechanical aspects of it. Sunshine89 fucked around with this message at 05:33 on Mar 17, 2014 |
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2014 05:31
|
|
|
Pinball posted:No, you're not. I know it's a really weird issue to have and a huge problem if I ever want to have a long-term thing, which I do. Of course I would like to not be freaked out by it, but unfortunately my reaction is fearful. Hopefully therapy will help! It's an unusual issue to have at your age, but it may not be something you can force your way through anymore than a gay guy can force himself to enjoy kissing a woman. I mean, yeah, it does sound weird to me, but I guess I hope that you're open to the idea that maybe this is just the way you are and it's not something that needs to be fixed. Yes, it will make it harder to find someone with whom to have a long-term thing, but, no, you're not doing yourself any favors trying to force yourself to engage in physical intimacy that you don't desire and might, at best, after great effort, manage to find not-panic-attack-inducing-terrible. Sunshine89 posted:Plus, French kissing as a concept can seem pretty unappealing until you find the right person to do it with- and then, you really aren't thinking too much about the mechanical aspects of it. Maybe I'm just an old whore, but French kissing as a concept stopped seeming unappealing right around puberty.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2014 05:44
|
|
|
solovyov posted:Maybe I'm just an old whore, but French kissing as a concept stopped seeming unappealing right around puberty. Same, but it may be lack of experience or an actual deep-seated issue for her, something which she would need to figure out for herself. Frankly, the panic attacks sound pretty alarming. I've dealt with anxiety, and it`s a godawful feeling, with your mind running circles trying to go over all the permutations of how something can go wrong. I`ll admit that withdrawing like I did wasn't healthy, but full-blown panic attacks over a date can't be healthy.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2014 06:37
|
|
|
It could also just be a personal turnoff. Different people like different things sometimes I hear.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2014 06:51
|
|
|
Chairchucker posted:It could also just be a personal turnoff. Different people like different things sometimes I hear. Everything about her narrative suggests that her personal turnoff is physical intimacy. If this is the case, it's not a problem that she's a virgin, it's a problem that she's trying to force herself to fit the standard narrative of what people in general want (physical intimacy) in order to get the part that she wants (emotional intimacy and support of long-term partnership). This is a recipe for disaster.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2014 07:12
|
|
|
solovyov posted:Everything about her narrative suggests that her personal turnoff is physical intimacy. If this is the case, it's not a problem that she's a virgin, it's a problem that she's trying to force herself to fit the standard narrative of what people in general want (physical intimacy) in order to get the part that she wants (emotional intimacy and support of long-term partnership). This is a recipe for disaster. This is pretty accurate but I also think she might just not be keen much on him or he may be going in ways she just doesn't like. The narrative of being so submissive about the physical part that she is allowing herself to get a hurt neck from leaning on him is telling also. Also I really like when I am holding hands with someone and they stroke my thumb but some people don't which is completely normal. I'd say it is probably mostly her fears and partially his reaction. I'm also assuming she hasn't told him about her inexperience.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2014 12:50
|
|
|
Pinball posted:Welp. Had a panic attack before the second date, but managed to make vaguely human conversation on the way to the movie, where he proceeded to drape his arm about my shoulders and want me to put my head on his shoulder, which accomplished nothing but giving me a crick in my neck. He also kept squeezing my arm with his other hand. Then we held hands for a while, but he wasn't content to just hold hands. He kept rubbing his thumb on my thumb, which I found distracting. He tried to French kiss me before I got out of his car, which made me freak out because I find the whole concept disgusting. Said goodnight, went inside, had a low-grade panic attack. Dude's a libertarian, too. French kissing is no more disgusting than regular kissing, or any kind of sex. I hope you can resolve your issues about that. It's okay if the guy was going too fast for you by the second date. Are you not attracted to him at all? You sound pretty repulsed by the guy. Usually, something like holding hands feels really nice if you like the other person. I really hope that the therapy will help you Pinball. Physical intimacy should be something pleasant and comforting and should not give you panic attacks.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2014 14:52
|
|
|
Sounds like guy was moving a little fast though. If you really like him I suggest telling him about these issues; though he may bail. If you're not crazy about him I'd really just break it off at this point, do a little therapy and wait till you meet someone else you like.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2014 17:38
|
|
|
Dudes probs just a bad kisser and you don't actually like him that much. I thought I didn't really like French kissing when I was younger either but when I was with someone I was actually attracted to and who didn't kiss like a washing machine then it was suddenly awesome. You shouldn't be pushing yourself just because you think its what you're supposed to do. If he isn't a massive jerkoff he'll understand and slow down a bit. My bf does the thumb-rubbing thing all the time without thinking but stops when I ask him to. Makes my skin feel weird after a while. I also went on one date with a guy who wanted to hold hands and be couple-y before it felt natural and it was really off putting for me, even if you do have real intimacy issues, what you're describing here isn't that abnormal.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2014 19:39
|
|
|
i don't care much for french kissing either but it's a good way to gauge if the person you're kissing makes you horny and happy
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2014 20:26
|
|
|
Thank you all for the advice, it's very helpful and encouraging. I think I'm going to stop dating him. It's unfair to him to be forced to deal with my freak-outs if he's expecting a normal relationship, and it's unfair to me to force myself to do something that makes me panic because I want to give him a semblance of normality. I'm going to concentrate on therapy and working to make my anxiety less overwhelming, so that if and when I meet someone I want to give it a shot with, I'm equipped to handle it better. I think part of the problem is that the whole construct of dating where you meet someone and then decide within a short time whether you want to pursue it as a long-term relationship is strange to me; the few times I've developed romantic interest in someone, it's always been after a period of friendship.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2014 20:33
|
|
|
Pinball posted:It's unfair to him to be forced to deal with my freak-outs if he's expecting a normal relationship Pinball posted:and it's unfair to me to force myself to do something that makes me panic because I want to give him a semblance of normality. I'm going to concentrate on therapy and working to make my anxiety less overwhelming, so that if and when I meet someone I want to give it a shot with, I'm equipped to handle it better. Pinball posted:I think part of the problem is that the whole construct of dating where you meet someone and then decide within a short time whether you want to pursue it as a long-term relationship is strange to me; the few times I've developed romantic interest in someone, it's always been after a period of friendship.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2014 20:44
|
|
|
Pinball posted:
Ditto. That's not weird at all. I think you're being v sensible.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2014 20:45
|
|
|
It sounds like you're doing all the right things for yourself. There's really no "right" or expected construct you need to follow. I generally try to make it known to the guy right away that I am interested in hanging out and getting to know them, and if something more comes out of it then that's great. Takes some of the pressure off. Unless there is an immediate connection, I would feel really weird cuddling or holding hands on a first date.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2014 20:52
|
|
|
Personally, I have trouble with dating as a construct because the entire format just feels dishonest. Like I (and she) are trying to sell a construct of ourselves that seems cool and likable rather than being open. For me, the stress of having to bullshit is the kind of thing I try to get away from in my personal life. While I've never been in such a bad state as to have panic attacks, I can sympathize with the general frustration you're having with the experience, Pinball.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2014 21:59
|
|
|
Some Guy TT posted:Personally, I have trouble with dating as a construct because the entire format just feels dishonest. Like I (and she) are trying to sell a construct of ourselves that seems cool and likable rather than being open. Welcome to the entirety of human communication.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2014 23:43
|
|
|
Ratoslov posted:Welcome to the entirety of human communication. Perhaps that poster does less self-monitoring than most.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2014 05:42
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 2, 2024 10:11 |
|
|
I don't know if it's a sign that I'm completely hosed in the head and it probably reads as pathetic as I feel typing it, but more than anything else, I'd love for someone to just hold me, while I hold her- and wake up the same way.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2014 07:09
|
|