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I don't get it. Why are politicians so afraid of being called meanies by the right-wing press? Do left of center politicians not realize how much popularity they would gain from calling out this bullshit, getting attacked by the right wing propagandists, and having an "I welcome their hated" moment? I know a lot of the left-of-center parties are such in name only, like the democrats, the labour parties, the social democrats, and the socialists too. But I have to believe someone still has enough principle and ambition to come out and shout down the bigots and sized control of the party.
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Mar 17, 2014 21:51
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Would they really gain popularity, even if they'd be saying the right thing?
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Mar 17, 2014 21:57
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visceril posted:I don't get it. I think it's a collective trauma from the assassination of Pim Fortuyn. The left and center "demonised" him before he got killed and got the blame for his death. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4Sl4CvmjfE
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Mar 17, 2014 22:37
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"Demonizing" just being a euphemism for calling him out on his hateful, cowardly, populist bullshit. Seriously, the man had a change of heart on the JSF after a single meeting with some lobbyists (uhuh), and I still maintain that anyone who lets his entire professed worldview and ideology (dude apparently used to be a Marxist and in his Leefbaar Nederland commencement speech or w/e he literally talks about this) get shattered by 19 fundamentalists in some planes is a loving coward more than anything else. We talk on this forum sometimes about the crazy overreaction of the United States public and political class that was the Bush years. The Netherlands had the same loving overreaction to something that didn't even happen here and we are still all aboard that crazy train and it shows no signs of stopping. Collectively our conception of recent history is a direct opposite of our actual recent history. "De puinhopen van Paars", Fortuyns book about how the 'purple' (liberal and social-democrat labour coalition government that governed from the early 90s to the early 2000s) government was disastrous for the Netherlands had a massive impact, and the average man on the street now believes those were the bad old days, even though we had political stability, ran a surplus and reduced the gently caress out of the debt, had low unemployment, a decent benefits system, made big strides in social issues like gay rights, abortion rights and so on and so on. Basically whether you were center, center-left or center-right you were pretty much getting exactly what these types always profess they want. This social democratic paradise is not surprising of course, given how the wall just came down, ending the cold war and opening up a good chunk of the world for capitalist exploitation that we, members of the labour aristocracy, were all going to benefit from. By all indexes that any of these types ever profess to care about things were going really loving well, and yet now claim it was a terrible time. I think you can make a comparison to the Reagan years in terms of the discrepancy of how things actually were versus how they are remembered. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Mar 17, 2014 |
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Mar 17, 2014 23:12
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Orange Devil posted:and I still maintain that anyone who lets his entire professed worldview and ideology (dude apparently used to be a Marxist and in his Leefbaar Nederland commencement speech or w/e he literally talks about this) get shattered by 19 fundamentalists in some planes is a loving coward more than anything else. This seems to be a recurring theme with Dutch right-wing populists. Don't forget Rita Verdonk, who used to be a leftst too and ended up starting the hilariously incompetent "Proud of the Netherlands" party. quote:Verdonk was a member of the activist group Bond voor Wetsovertreders (BWO; English: Union for Lawbreakers) which had close ties with the far-left Pacifist Socialist Party. [...] ekuNNN fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Mar 17, 2014 |
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Mar 17, 2014 23:21
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ekuNNN posted:Don't forget Rita Verdonk, who used to be a leftst too and ended up starting the hilariously incompetent "Proud of the Netherlands" party. Verdonk, with her prison background, always struck me as more traditionally authoritarian (see the "rules are rules" mindset in literally everything she was involved with, ever). Not entirely surprising that she couldn't hack it as a populist firebrand.
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Mar 17, 2014 23:23
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More unashamed demagoguery by Wilders on council election night. Definitely not comparable to Hitler to stand on stage and have your audience shout that they want less Moroccans in the country... It makes me incredibly uneasy that the people that voice support for the PVV do not see the historical parallels. Or worse still, they might not care.
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Mar 19, 2014 23:19
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There were a few idiots in Ireland who went from Trotskyite to hardcore Neo-Con in a few years. Hitchens made a similar journey didn't he? I find it hard to take people like that at face value.
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Mar 22, 2014 02:28
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IIRC they were called "Neo"conservatives because they'd somewhat recently converted, mostly from being Trots.
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Mar 22, 2014 02:33
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bpower posted:There were a few idiots in Ireland who went from Trotskyite to hardcore Neo-Con in a few years. Hitchens made a similar journey didn't he? I find it hard to take people like that at face value. Wasn't this how Paul Wolfowitz became one too? (Though probably not formally a Trotskyite, given he's from the U.S.)
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Mar 22, 2014 02:35
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David Horowitz is the obvious American example that springs to my mind.
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Mar 22, 2014 02:38
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The vanguard neo-con thinkers in America were all reformed trotskyites if I remember right. Most were dead but the idea of exporting
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Mar 22, 2014 03:01
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I think I've just got my wires crossed because apparently Wolfowitz was a student of Strauss.
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Mar 22, 2014 03:06
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Berke Negri posted:The vanguard neo-con thinkers in America were all reformed trotskyites if I remember right. Most were dead but the idea of exporting What?
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Mar 22, 2014 03:49
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Mans posted:What? Ironically using the word vanguard there.
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Mar 22, 2014 03:57
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Berke Negri posted:The vanguard neo-con thinkers in America were all reformed trotskyites if I remember right. Most were dead but the idea of exporting No, they weren't, the majority of them were right-wing or liberals prior to becoming neocons. The term is "Trotskyist", incidentally.
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Mar 22, 2014 10:12
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Irving Kristol, who is sort of the neoconservative grand master, was a Trotskiyst in college. I don't think he made the jump from there directly to neoconservatism, though. It's more of a gradual transition. I think Richard Perle might have been a Trot in college. I know Douglas Feith described himself as a former socialist. I don't think Wolfowitz was ever a socialist. There is an odd similarity between neoconservatism and Trotksyism, though. One of Trotksy's big arguments was that socialism could not survive unless it was exported into other countries - by force, if necessary. Neoconservatism is like that but swap out Bolshevism with American-style capitalism and liberalism. In Feith's memoirs he made the argument that it was necessary for the United States to invade and overthrow authoritarian regimes because the threat of another 9/11-style attack would lead to the public demanding the abolition of their own liberties; the creation of a domestic security state that would be much worse than the one the Bush administration created. I.E. the threat to democracy from outside would cause democracy to undo itself from within, therefore we must eliminate those outside threats. There would be some temporary reductions in liberties, but... Today, with the NSA being what it is, you could argue that Feith was either deluded or his crusade had failed. But if I was a neocon, I'd argue that Obama withdrawing U.S. forces and ceasing the democratic crusade (with the exception of Gaddafi) has led to what Feith feared. We're still fighting the war but on the defensive, and that's led to an expansion of the NSA's snooping, remote drone war, etc. The Republicans are more hawkish but the Democrats are actually the more authoritarian (and dangerous) ones... I could imagine Hitchens writing a column like that. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 11:06 on Mar 22, 2014 |
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Mar 22, 2014 10:52
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Omi-Polari posted:Irving Kristol, who is sort of the neoconservative grand master, was a Trotskiyst in college. I don't think he made the jump from there directly to neoconservatism, though. It's more of a gradual transition. I think Richard Perle might have been a Trot in college. I know Douglas Feith described himself as a former socialist. I don't think Wolfowitz was ever a socialist. I don't remember any proponent of neoliberalism stating that it can't survive without being exported to other countries. They present it as something natural and just which would succeed of its own if the evil commies/Muslims/some other enemy just gave it a chance.
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Mar 22, 2014 20:55
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Today was international antifascist and anti-racist day  Here's a list of many of the protests that brought thousands of people into the street around the world today: http://revolution-news.com/international-day-fascism-march-22nd-live-blog/ Here in the Netherlands we had a nice big march. The turnout was probably helped a lot by Wilders' recent racist remarks, as most of the signs, chants and speeches were about that. 
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Mar 22, 2014 23:30
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Gantolandon posted:I don't remember any proponent of neoliberalism stating that it can't survive without being exported to other countries. They present it as something natural and just which would succeed of its own if the evil commies/Muslims/some other enemy just gave it a chance.
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Mar 23, 2014 05:27
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Omi-Polari posted:There is an odd similarity between neoconservatism and Trotksyism, though. One of Trotksy's big arguments was that socialism could not survive unless it was exported into other countries - by force, if necessary. Neoconservatism is like that but swap out Bolshevism with American-style capitalism and liberalism. You might want to try actually reading what Trotsky wrote about the Theory of Permanent Revolution rather than presenting a caricature because it absolutely cannot be transformed into neoconservatism with a few word substitutions.
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Mar 23, 2014 10:16
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In the meantime, two members of the lower house, one member of the European Parliament, a bunch of provincial parliament and city council members all have left Wilder's PVV. In other news, this has led Wilders to cancel his visit to the Flemish fascist party. Which means he didn't have a chance to criminalize himself in Belgium. 
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Mar 23, 2014 20:07
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CSM posted:In the meantime, two members of the lower house, one member of the European Parliament, a bunch of provincial parliament and city council members all have left Wilder's PVV. In other news, this has led Wilders to cancel his visit to the Flemish fascist party. Which means he didn't have a chance to criminalize himself in Belgium. drat it, now I won't have a chance to bring Wilders up in a conversation with my friends to talk about how poo poo he is. Just kidding, any moment is a good moment to bring up how poo poo Wilders is.
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Mar 23, 2014 20:12
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Thanks Holllande, thanks center-left, what would fascism do without your heroic efforts to swim in the pools reserved for the right wing and destroy any credibility people have for actual positive change  http://guardianlv.com/2014/03/france-municipal-election-gains-for-far-right/
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Mar 24, 2014 03:38
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Kristol did go on record saying that stalinism had some pretty good ideas though, right? The hole rising surveillance state/patriot act elicited some crazy remarks from him IIRC. E:
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Mar 24, 2014 08:01
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Why is 7% supposed to be such a significant figure, didn't the FN earn almost 20% of the vote during the presidential elections in 2012?
TheIllestVillain fucked around with this message at 08:33 on Mar 24, 2014 |
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Mar 24, 2014 08:29
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TheIllestVillain posted:Why is 7% supposed to be such a significant figure, didn't the FN earn almost 20% of the vote during the presidential elections in 2012? It's local elections. 7% nationwide can mean taking over several cities.
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Mar 24, 2014 08:35
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They'll be in the second round in 315 municipalities next Sunday and they won at least one town in the first round. Granted, these are likely all little podunk towns that hardly matter in and of themselves, the bad part is that the FN winning elections gives them a certain legitimacy and makes them look like just another party.
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Mar 24, 2014 08:41
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So yeah, anyway to migrate to Canada before 2017?  Absention was high too, 35%
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Mar 24, 2014 08:56
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TheIllestVillain posted:Why is 7% supposed to be such a significant figure, didn't the FN earn almost 20% of the vote during the presidential elections in 2012? They only participated in 597 of the 37.000 municipalities, while getting 7% of the nationwide vote. That would indicate that not only did they pretty much won everywhere that they participated, but that they mainly participated in large cities as well. Edit: spelling Lagotto fucked around with this message at 11:47 on Mar 24, 2014 |
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Mar 24, 2014 10:27
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Looking at results in my town, the right wing mayor was reelected with 52% of the votes, not too shocking (last time he was reelected with over 60% of the votes), but the PS got 28% of the votes versus 18% for the Left Front candidate  (there was only three candidates)You'd think people would rather vote for the Left Front instead of the PS but what do I know. Also my grandma participated in the election of her small Corsican village and lost. Sorry grandma. Kurtofan fucked around with this message at 11:40 on Mar 24, 2014 |
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Mar 24, 2014 11:35
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Is this surprising given previous election results or something? You would expect the main social-democrat party to be more popular than what I assume to be an alliance of minor leftist parties. In Flanders, the far left struggles (and usually fails) to get more than 5% of the vote. The communists were elated to get 8% of the vote in Antwerp during the municipal elections of 2012.
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Mar 24, 2014 11:45
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My town used to be communist back in the eighties-early nineties. And the Left Front isn't exactly minor considering it includes the Communist Party. I don't know you'd think leftists would know better than to vote for the PS again, and there was only three candidates so it's not like they could have voted for the FN.
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Mar 24, 2014 11:51
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The FN ran for the first time here in Rennes and got 8% of the vote  The center-right managed a unified list and got 30% and the PS/UDB only managed 35% so that means they'll hopefully have to make a deal with the Left Front/EELV who got 15%. Kurtofan posted:I don't know you'd think leftists would know better than to vote for the PS again A lot of the people who vote PS aren't actually leftists.
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Mar 24, 2014 12:21
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Soviet Commubot posted:
I guess you're right God this is depressing.
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Mar 24, 2014 12:35
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Kurtofan posted:So yeah, anyway to migrate to Canada before 2017? Hahahaha, don't come here you poor soul, our government drinks the American kool-aid.
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Mar 24, 2014 17:24
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WilliamAnderson posted:Hahahaha, don't come here you poor soul, our government drinks the American kool-aid. Well that and you have a housing bubble that's worse than the US one.
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Mar 24, 2014 17:29
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WilliamAnderson posted:Hahahaha, don't come here you poor soul, our government drinks the American kool-aid. You can't escape the American kool aid and Canada is prolly one of the better options in that regard.
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Mar 24, 2014 17:30
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People won't vote on the left exactly because of PS. Center leftist parties are great at monopolizing the image of the left into themselves and the media loves to paint those parties as actualy leftist parties, which means that when they gently caress up (and they always gently caress up) people flock over to the right because clearly the far left parties will only do the same thing but worse. I've long stopped considering European center-left parties to have any worth.
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Mar 24, 2014 19:40
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computer parts posted:Well that and you have a housing bubble that's worse than the US one. No, no, don't worry, the Conference Board of Canada says the market's fine. Some of the banks say homes are overvalued but it's all good. Soft landing. Everyone should come here.  also health care, gun control, abortions, and gay marriage On the subject of Sun, I knew I remembered the name of Geert Wilders. I recall there being a kerfuffle when he came to Canada a few years back. I had no idea who he was, but apparently he spoke at the National Arts Centre in Ottawa in 2011, introduced by the main ratings-draw of Sun TV, one Ezra Levant, who introduced Wilders as the "bravest man in Europe." He never really stood out to me as anyone special. The speech was mostly about how multiculturalism is "a disaster" because it's being used to "promote Islam." I guess letting Muslim people have opinions about things is a bad idea. The Globe and Mail said the people hosting him told the NAC "a Dutch MP" was coming as "part of the Tulip Festival." This is all three year old news now, but there are at least a few hundred people willing to hear the man out in Canada, and some media partners willing to give him air time and a platform at a federally funded arts centre. I guess he's still pounding the pavement in Europe.
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