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jimmynmu posted:Most of the ancient military history that I've read focused on commanders and the wider political and strategic scope of wars. I would like to read more about what life was like for individual rank and file soldiers, particularly Roman soldiers but I'm interested in any cultures from antiquity. Can anyone recommend some books or resources that might spark my interest? That's hard because, for the most part, rank and file didn't write anything that got around. There's bits of graffiti and letters home, but not, like, war memoirs and poo poo. Xenophon's Anabasis is pretty good, it's his personal memoirs. Although he ends up being a leader of the expedition he starts out as just a young hanger on of some of the officers, so there's good discussion of life on the march and what that was like. Also, a mercenary army like that was about as close to 'professional soldier' as the Greeks ever got, Sparta aside and that's a whole different issue.
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Mar 21, 2014 01:40
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Well, by the time Operation Typhoon began to peter out the state of German logistics can best be described as an unmitigated catastrophe. I can't figure out how the entire front didn't just collapse with an 1812 Napoleonic style retreat. I guess Hitler's stand fast order actually saved the Ostheer? I don't know. Pretty much yeah. Every history I've read that covers typhoon seemed to at least mention that hitler's standfast order was the right one.
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Mar 21, 2014 01:41
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Getting past the frontline is much easier when using air forces - Soviets didn't always have air superiority, but when possible they did use it to their advantage in support of ground operations by bombing enemy logistic centers such as rail junctions, ports, bridges or known supply depots. Standard practises, in other words.
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Mar 21, 2014 01:48
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Stalin posted:You have let down our country and our Red Army. You have the nerve not to manufacture IL-2s until now. Our Red Army now needs IL-2 aircraft like the air it breathes, like the bread it eats. Shenkman produces one IL-2 a day and Tretyakov builds one or two MiG-3s daily. It is a mockery of our country and the Red Army. I ask you not to try the government's patience, and demand that you manufacture more ILs. This is my final warning. By the end of the war they had more planes than the allies iirc
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Mar 21, 2014 02:34
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Stalin was pretty hands-on when it was time to boost production. KV hull production at Uralmash: "Today, I ask you and hope that you will complete your duty to your Motherland. In a few days, if you continue violating your duty, I will start crushing you like criminals that neglect the honour and interests of the Motherland. It is unacceptable for our frontline soldiers to suffer without tanks while you relax and laze about in the far rear." I have a few more such telegrams, but they don't really have any interesting turns of phrase in them.
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Mar 21, 2014 02:45
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Holy poo poo  Was there any human error or unplanned delay, or it was just Stalin being a dick?
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Mar 21, 2014 02:54
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jaegerx posted:By the end of the war they had more planes than the allies iirc Maybe on paper, but didn't the US spit out something like 200,000 planes alone? Granted, many of them were Catalinas and other support-type planes, but still, I can't imagine that the Soviets had more planes than the US did.
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Mar 21, 2014 02:55
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alex314 posted:Holy poo poo IIRC, Uralmash KVs were lovely enough that tankers that received them refused to get into them, demanding Kirov KVs instead. So yeah, the criticism is warranted.
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Mar 21, 2014 02:57
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sullat posted:Maybe on paper, but didn't the US spit out something like 200,000 planes alone? Granted, many of them were Catalinas and other support-type planes, but still, I can't imagine that the Soviets had more planes than the US did. I was thinking in theatre. Didn't count the pacific. I'm sure America had more overall. E: also didn't the soviets take every airplane they could from the allies. Even the obsolete ones were still flying with the red Air Force at the end of the war I thought. jaegerx fucked around with this message at 03:09 on Mar 21, 2014 |
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Mar 21, 2014 03:02
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My favorite story about the Il-2:quote:Typical of Soviet Second World War aircraft, many Il-2s were "gifts" presented to specific pilots and partially paid for by organizations like hometowns, factories or comrades of another fallen pilot.[citation needed] The most famous of these was an aircraft purchased with the savings of a seven-year-old daughter of the fallen commander of the 237th ShAP. Learning of her father's death, the girl sent 100 rubles directly to Stalin asking him to use the money for an Il-2 to avenge her father. Remarkably, Stalin actually received the letter and 237th ShAP received a new Il-2m3 with the inscription "From Lenochka for father" on the side.
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Mar 21, 2014 03:14
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Tevery Best posted:Don Gato: Do you honestly believe that the state really gave a poo poo about what those guys reported, as long as it was what the state had wanted? Soviet Union did not value truth all that much. The state figured they were doing their jobs because it had traitors to shoot. That literally what I just said, only with an example. No need to be so hostile saying the same thing. gradenko_2000 posted:My favorite story about the Il-2: Huh. So that's where that text in War Thunder comes from. It really was seem out of place next to all the other "FOR THE MOTHERLAND" type quotes.
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Mar 21, 2014 03:36
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gradenko_2000 posted:My favorite story about the Il-2: That reminds me of something in an Osprey book I have about the P-39 Airacobra (P-39 Airacobra Aces of World War 2), which has a photo of the plane flown by Ivan Babak and later Grigorii Dol'nikov. On the side of it (so the photo's caption tells me) they have painted on it, "From the Schoolchildren of Mariupol". Which is pretty funny because, for anybody not familiar with planes, the P-39 is an American plane that was provided under Lend-Lease. Maybe the school got together and wrote a letter to Roosevelt? jaegerx posted:I was thinking in theatre. Didn't count the pacific. I'm sure America had more overall. They took whatever they could get initially since the Germans annihilated the Red Air Force at least as completely as the Red Army on the ground during Barbarossa, taking hammy-down Hurricanes from the RAF for instance, but they didn't take everything they could get once they had gotten past the crisis period. Several aircraft types were given to the Soviets but not used in front line service, or only used in small numbers. They were provided with Spitfires but didn't use them much because apparently ground troops mistook them for German fighters a lot, resulting in friendly-fire incidents. I believe they were also provided with P-47s but chose not to use them because they had aircraft like the IL-2 which already performed the ground attack role adequately, and had no need for high altitude air superiority fighters. On the other hand the aforementioned P-39 was a plane that the Americans and RAF pretty much could not ditch fast enough because it had short range and lovely high altitude performance, which made it pretty worthless for their needs in every theater but perhaps the Mediterranean. The Soviets though loved them because they were heavily armed, were manufactured with much higher and consistent quality than domestic aircraft, and most Eastern Front air combat was at low altitudes and fought by aircraft based very near the front lines. The Osprey book even mentions, while talking about the Tatar ace Sultan Amet-Khan, that at one point his squadron actually established a fighter base behind German lines so they could harass German transports flying aerial resupply missions 
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Mar 21, 2014 03:53
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gradenko_2000 posted:My favorite story about the Il-2: There was a similar story about a T-60 named Malyutka (Little Child) purchased with donations from children. It started with: "My name is Ada Zanegina. I am six years old, this is why I write in block letters." (no Russian adult prints, everyone writes in cursive) "Hitler chased me out of the city of Sychevka in Smolensk Oblast'. I want to go home. I am small, but I know that if you can defeat Hitler, I can come home. I saved 122 rubles and 55 kopecks for a doll. I give it to you for a tank. Dear uncle editor! Write to all children in your newspaper so that they will give you money for a tank. We will call it Malyutka. When our tank defeats Hitler, we can all go home. Ada. My mother is a doctor and my father is a tanker." More letters that came along with the money: "I want to come back to Kiev. I saved this for boots: 135 rubles, 56 kopecks to built the Malyutka tank. Alik Solodov, age 6." "Mommy wanted to buy me a new coat and saved 150 rubles. I can wear an old one. Tamara Loskutova." "Dear unknown girl Ada! I am only five, but I have lived for a year without my mother. I want to go home, and gladly give this money to build our tank. I hope it defeats the enemy quickly. Tanya Chistyakova." The children collected 160,886 rubles, which could buy a T-60 tank. The tank was sent to Stalingrad and fought alongside the 56th Tank Bridage. The tank commander survived the battle (I didn't find out if the tank did), and was allegedly nicknamed "Malyutka".
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Mar 21, 2014 04:04
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the JJ posted:That's hard because, for the most part, rank and file didn't write anything that got around. There's bits of graffiti and letters home, but not, like, war memoirs and poo poo. I've read some about the findings at vindolanda which is obviously an important record, although those soldiers seemed quite stationary and saw very little action. Have no scholars attempted a book that tries to put together what life might've been like for everyday soldiers? I know they have few written texts to work with, but we can piece together portions of what life would've been like for the rank and file through archaeological finds. Most of the modern Roman military histories I've read focused upon the generals and their grand schemes, whereas I'm more interested in learning about what hand to hand combat would've been like, what the daily routine of a legionary would consist of, how they were recruited and what kind of lifespan they might expect, what kind of medical attention they might've received, and so on. I know there has been a plethora of books written on the Roman military and I'm sure a few goons out there could recommend me something up this alley. I will read what you recommended by Xenophon though. I've only read his Apology but the Anabasis sounds fascinating. jmnmu fucked around with this message at 04:17 on Mar 21, 2014 |
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Mar 21, 2014 04:08
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Ensign Expendable posted:There was a similar story about a T-60 named Malyutka (Little Child) purchased with donations from children. It started with: Wow the soviet war machine's procurement situation must have been loving dire.
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Mar 21, 2014 04:36
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Ensign Expendable posted:There was a similar story about a T-60 named Malyutka (Little Child) purchased with donations from children. It started with: I'm not sure I understand how the Soviet economy worked. Why did they even need money? I figured they just told the factories what to build and the factories built it because the factories were owned by the state.
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Mar 21, 2014 04:46
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Money was very much involved. Workers want to get paid, so their factories have to get paid, so the government must pay them. Soldiers want to get paid. Of course, the soldiers' money would be deposited to a savings account, but the more money to government actually had on hand, the more cash it could hand out to the soldiers, the happier they would be. Here's how much some tanks cost, for instance. If it was true communism, then yes, they could just say "make us N tanks" and N tanks would be made, but it wasn't.
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Mar 21, 2014 04:55
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OctaviusBeaver posted:I'm not sure I understand how the Soviet economy worked. Why did they even need money? I figured they just told the factories what to build and the factories built it because the factories were owned by the state. The factories still need currency to buy the raw materials so the state owned mines can pay the miners. Now why they need donations instead of printing more rubles I have no idea. My gut says inflation concerns but I'm not sure if a command economy can even experience currency inflation.
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Mar 21, 2014 04:58
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Printing money? That wastes paper, comrade! Paper is needed for orders and telegrams. From nearly unreadable dark gray pencil on light gray cigar paper I've seen in the archives, there wasn't exactly a surplus of it.
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Mar 21, 2014 05:00
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Ensign Expendable posted:Printing money? That wastes paper, comrade! Paper is needed for orders and telegrams. From nearly unreadable dark gray pencil on light gray cigar paper I've seen in the archives, there wasn't exactly a surplus of it. From that description it sounds like the Soviets were like hoarders who saved every scrap of paper just in case it became historically useful in some future year. I'm curious though, was there ever a similar situation to normal citizens sending in money to buy tanks and other materiel in the rest of the world during this time? The Soviets were desperate at this time, but off the top of my head the only thing I remember being close to kids buying tanks is those old war-time cartoons Disney made, where they informed good citizens that X will kick Hitler's rear end, with X being everything from saving meat drippings to make explosives to not going to a casino, since those are run by Nazis and Scrooge McDuck only wants you to save for your taxes so that they can go on to buy important poo poo*. Though Donald Duck telling kids to send in their allowance to buy a new B-17 wouldn't seem that far out compared to that, and I might just have missed something like that when I was studying wartime propaganda. *These are two real Disney shorts I've seen
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Mar 21, 2014 05:27
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Weren't war bonds effectively the same thing, just less desperate, less melodramatic and more organized? That said, I never heard of German war bonds.
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Mar 21, 2014 05:37
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War bonds would be a pretty similar thing, though I doubt you could put them to a specific unit or toward a plane or whatever, instead just it being a generalized contribution to the war effort. I vaguely remember some news paper ads or propaganda posters one of my history teachers had on their class room wall advertising war bonds, pitching them like "if you buy this amount in war bonds you will pay for one of these things for our soldiers, buy war bonds today!" edit: gradenko_2000 posted:Weren't war bonds effectively the same thing, just less desperate, less melodramatic and more organized? Tooze's Wages of Destruction mentions that the Germans didn't want to issue war bonds (or, iirc, any other kind of public bonds) because if the public failed to buy them in sufficient numbers it would undermine the Nazi regime since it would be a tangible demonstration of the public's antipathy toward the government and party. Pornographic Memory fucked around with this message at 05:43 on Mar 21, 2014 |
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Mar 21, 2014 05:37
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Don Gato posted:From that description it sounds like the Soviets were like hoarders who saved every scrap of paper just in case it became historically useful in some future year. They were. The Ministry of Defense archives are unimaginably vast. Sadly, not every scrap. Kirov factory used their early Object 701 blueprints as scrap paper 
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Mar 21, 2014 05:53
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gradenko_2000 posted:Weren't war bonds effectively the same thing, just less desperate, less melodramatic and more organized? War bonds also eventually get paid back. I dunno if little Timmy ever got back his 100 rubles he sent in for the tank.
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Mar 21, 2014 06:23
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Pornographic Memory posted:The Osprey book even mentions, while talking about the Tatar ace Sultan Amet-Khan, that at one point his squadron actually established a fighter base behind German lines so they could harass German transports flying aerial resupply missions Could you give details on how they pulled this off? Pornographic Memory posted:Tooze's Wages of Destruction mentions that the Germans didn't want to issue war bonds (or, iirc, any other kind of public bonds) because if the public failed to buy them in sufficient numbers it would undermine the Nazi regime since it would be a tangible demonstration of the public's antipathy toward the government and party. And yeesus christ the Nazis really were total fuckups weren't they? Didn't they know even the feckless jew-controlled capitalists could pull this off?
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Mar 21, 2014 06:28
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Couldn't the Nazis have just lied and said that the bond drives were huge successes?
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Mar 21, 2014 06:36
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sullat posted:War bonds also eventually get paid back. I dunno if little Timmy ever got back his 100 rubles he sent in for the tank.
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Mar 21, 2014 07:40
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Lamadrid posted:This might go outside of the military but after watching the director's cut of Kingdom of Heaven and loving it does anyone has any recommendation of books about the crusader states ? Arquinsiel posted:Back when it came out in cinemas and I loved it I was told what "the super-definitive no really" work on the crusades was, but the name of the drat book escapes me buried under the Mission Impossible "dig through weirdly old looking parts of the Lecky Library in TCD, all the while being sure I was going to get asked for my ID and the cops would be called" shenanigans I went through to get it. And then it was so dry it was the first book I ever didn't bother to finish. Amazingly they didn't even look at the ID when I checked the book out. Sadly the girl who's ID I had borrowed may want me dead, so uh... good luck? I might've missed it, but didn't see anyone else answer it. For the definitive Crusade history that you checked out, you're probably thinking of The Runciman (link is the 1st of 3). FWIW, I really liked God's War, but you may want to get a second opinion on that as I'm also an amateur and I'm not sure I'm knowledgeable enough to offer that as an alternative.
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Mar 21, 2014 08:02
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sullat posted:War bonds also eventually get paid back. I dunno if little Timmy ever got back his 100 rubles he sent in for the tank. Only if the issuer can pay it, so the war bond is partially a gauge of how much investors expect the issuing country to win the war. Of course the middle of a war is not exactly the best time for a sober assessment of one's homeland's chance of victory.
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Mar 21, 2014 08:15
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Phobophilia posted:Could you give details on how they pulled this off? You need to give the nazis more credit  (I'll try to roughly translate what the german wikipedia about Kriegsanleihen says):"Vielmehr wurden kurzfristig fällige Sparguthaben ohne Wissen und Einverständnis der Sparer mit Hilfe der Kreditinstitute beliehen, die zu Kreditsammelstellen des Staates wurden und die Gelder langfristig bei ihm anlegten. Dieser Kapitalkreislauf beruhte darauf, dass „die Einkommensempfänger die legal nicht verwendbaren Einkommensbeträge zur Bank tragen und die Kreditinstitute dieses Geld gegen die Hereinnahme von Schatzwechseln an den Finanzminister weiterreichen.“[4] Die „geräuschlose“ Umwandlung von Sparguthaben und Rentenversicherungsrücklagen in langfristige Schuldpapiere wurde ergänzt durch das „Eiserne Sparen“ und flankiert von Lohn- und Preiskontrollen (siehe auch geräuschlose Kriegsfinanzierung)." "With the aid of the credit institutes, short term savings were lent against without knowledge or consent of the depositors. These credit institutes were turned into (oh god, how do I translate Kreditsammelstellen?) credit accumulation institutions, which in turn invested the money in the long term. This circulation of capital was based upon the fact that the receivers of income carried the legaly not-usable sums of income to the banks, which in turn handed them to the minister of finance in exchange for treasury bills. This "silent" exchange of savings and pension insurance funds for long term bonds (Schuldpapiere?) was supplemented by "Eisernes Sparen" (I don't know the english analogy. Maybe "severe austerity"?) and flanked by wage- and price controlls (also see silent war funding)." Wow, that was hard. I have no clue about the correct financial vocables. Kinda explains why the capital stock was completely destroyed by the end of the war. One should also add that the nazis funneled large sums of money and materials from the occupied zones. Power Khan fucked around with this message at 08:53 on Mar 21, 2014 |
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Mar 21, 2014 08:46
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gradenko_2000 posted:Weren't war bonds effectively the same thing, just less desperate, less melodramatic and more organized? Besides war bonds Allied nations had to take measures that were pretty much identical to the Soviet funds, and at best only little bit better organized. The British and their colonies most famously established Spitfire funds that were the same thing - collecting private money to buy Spitfires. Ships and boats, too, were funded from donations, often of entire communities. In the end it doesn't matter if the economy is capitalist or communist, even on war footing you need to keep your accounts in check, and the liabilities - assets columns balanced. The Americans even had a drive to scrap and recycle automobile bumpers, but I wouldn't call their material situation dire Frostwerks posted:Wow the soviet war machine's procurement situation must have been loving dire.
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Mar 21, 2014 08:59
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jimmynmu posted:I've read some about the findings at vindolanda which is obviously an important record, although those soldiers seemed quite stationary and saw very little action. Have no scholars attempted a book that tries to put together what life might've been like for everyday soldiers? I know they have few written texts to work with, but we can piece together portions of what life would've been like for the rank and file through archaeological finds. Most of the modern Roman military histories I've read focused upon the generals and their grand schemes, whereas I'm more interested in learning about what hand to hand combat would've been like, what the daily routine of a legionary would consist of, how they were recruited and what kind of lifespan they might expect, what kind of medical attention they might've received, and so on. I know there has been a plethora of books written on the Roman military and I'm sure a few goons out there could recommend me something up this alley. Going outside of the purely historical and including narrative , you can take a look at the books of Eagle Series.They are your usual military history books but I found them entertaining. You could also take a look at GiP and translate back everything 2000 years : "So we were in the siege tower and this guy suddenly starts screaming:"I need to go to the bathroom Optio!" , so everybody starts looking at him and then it happens.poo poo.poo poo everywhere.poo poo in the caligulae.poo poo in the helmet.poo poo in the lorica.Scutum.poo poo was everywhere. We assaulted the city and killed a bunch of who-knows-what but that fucker had to force his new slaves to clean the loving tower instead of raping them.Gods that was hilarious" "So I got really drunk with cheap wine , like really poo poo.When I woke up I have a tattoo in my chest and I am married to nabathean prostitute, I even had more money in my purse than at the start of the night" "Private Licinius did you buy a racing carriage?" hump day bitches! fucked around with this message at 09:14 on Mar 21, 2014 |
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Mar 21, 2014 09:07
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Lamadrid posted:You could also take a look at GiP and translate back everything 2000 years : quote:Floronius, privileged soldier of the 7th legion, was here. The women did not know of his presence. Only six women came to know, too few for such a stallion.
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Mar 21, 2014 09:23
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jimmynmu posted:I've read some about the findings at vindolanda which is obviously an important record, although those soldiers seemed quite stationary and saw very little action. Have no scholars attempted a book that tries to put together what life might've been like for everyday soldiers? I know they have few written texts to work with, but we can piece together portions of what life would've been like for the rank and file through archaeological finds. Most of the modern Roman military histories I've read focused upon the generals and their grand schemes, whereas I'm more interested in learning about what hand to hand combat would've been like, what the daily routine of a legionary would consist of, how they were recruited and what kind of lifespan they might expect, what kind of medical attention they might've received, and so on. I know there has been a plethora of books written on the Roman military and I'm sure a few goons out there could recommend me something up this alley. I recommend you check out the Ancient Warfare Magazine podcast. They talk about these issues in several episodes (I don't remember which exactly though) and it's free.
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Mar 21, 2014 09:32
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We've had this in the Rome thread, but the number of people who complain about the fact that somebody shat against the wall of their house is amusing. "“Secundus defecated here” three time on one wall."
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Mar 21, 2014 09:42
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JaucheCharly posted:We've had this in the Rome thread, but the number of people who complain about the fact that somebody shat against the wall of their house is amusing. "On April 19th, I made bread." Good for you, bro. "The man I am having dinner with is a barbarian." ...Literally?
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Mar 21, 2014 09:45
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WEEDLORDBONERHEGEL posted:"On April 19th, I made bread." Good for you, bro. This is the precursor of the kind of person that posts everything they do on social media. "I just showered." or "Mhmm coffee"
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Mar 21, 2014 10:00
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quote:II.3.10 (Pottery Shop or Bar of Nicanor; right of the door); 10070: Lesbianus, you defecate and you write, ‘Hello, everyone!’ 
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Mar 21, 2014 10:46
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JaucheCharly posted:This is the precursor of the kind of person that posts everything they do on social media. "I just showered." or "Mhmm coffee" VI.14.20 (House of Orpheus); 4523: "I have buggered men."
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Mar 21, 2014 10:49
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WEEDLORDBONERHEGEL posted:"The man I am having dinner with is a barbarian." ...Literally? Literally, barbarian means a babbler. Sounds plausible...
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Mar 21, 2014 10:55
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