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Fallorn posted:Atrons should be free from your corp. If they are not you should find a better corp. Hell even when goons were in lordless they gave out free kestrels. Its all fair game and their fault they are not able to have it through contracts or free frig programs. Well, Atrons are practically free if they cost ~1mil each, right?  Prices have come down a bit, but you still get lots and lots of people who speculate on their buyers' inexperience or dire need (no other ships available) to sell their (meta2/3 fitted) Atrons for 2mil or 3mil each via contracts. I sometimes saw Atrons for more decent prices around the 700k/800k mark, which is already "good" for Sendaya.No ships in BNI is free on a structural level, unless you happen to find somebody who will give you something. There is a channel where one might request ships, though it seems entirely dependent on players donating things and is not in any way a supported structure. Apart from Atrons, many other things get even more expensive. Maulus/Griffin are continously overpriced in various questionable fits, and I think (though I don't have any direct experience with them) Thoraxes are pretty overpriced. If you asked me to sum up the relationship between BNI's leadership (or its most vocal players) and its actual newbies, this would be my reply:  BNI for me has become an entity comprised of bad decisions, inadequate means of communication and some really bad ideas about how play this game and how to approach things. Fallorn posted:I have already just been re-listing BNI market stuff because they will pay it and its easy money. One corp mail tried to address this a while ago: http://eveskunk.com/e/336578780 The answer (by Tavaz, who runs the PI Buyback programme and a couple of other things) deserves to be quoted in full: http://eveskunk.com/e/336580914 posted:Alliance: Brave Collective I'm also not quite sure how "reshipping", i.e. paying the relisted prices for absolutely everything, hurts the resellers making money off of it, but maybe that's just my limited understanding of how economics work?
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Mar 21, 2014 15:48
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Phobophilia posted:Guy guys be really careful who you suicide gank This kinda stuff is unironically what makes Eve great. A guy gets suicide ganked, and then exacts his revenge, causing actual harm to those who wronged him. You can't do this in any other game.
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Mar 21, 2014 15:49
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The fact that BNI doesn't give out free T1 frigs is just mind boggling.
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Mar 21, 2014 16:03
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ranbo das posted:The fact that BNI doesn't give out free T1 frigs is just mind boggling. Funded by their
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Mar 21, 2014 16:05
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I think "reshipping" in the market pvp example there is more meant to be re-importing and listing for them to buy out again as he instructs previously.
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Mar 21, 2014 16:07
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Doublestep posted:https://zkillboard.com/character/935673972/ I think we have 5 of them now.  It's a pity that they are shield tanked. Aeon supremacy  .
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Mar 21, 2014 16:07
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Whats the point of having meatshields if they cannot even procure t1 frigates to protect our super important caracal backbone? I think my leadership needs to go back to the drawing board and find someone else to corrupt 
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Mar 21, 2014 16:13
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darnon posted:I think "reshipping" in the market pvp example there is more meant to be re-importing and listing for them to buy out again as he instructs previously.  "We reship, undock and get back into the fight as quick as possible. Don't roll over. Don't give up." is pretty much word-for-word BNI's dogma why welping equals fun per hour and if you lose 5 ships an hour you are clearly winning at EVE because you have five times more fun than the people who didn't get killed. I've also yet to hear reshipping in any context other than "go back to a station, get into a new ship, rejoin your fleet, continue the fight".
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Mar 21, 2014 16:27
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Yes. The eve-mail is talking about applying that concept from ship pvp to market pvp. If someone buys out your stuff that is still earning you a profit ("welping") then get more to relist and let them keep feeding you profit out of their accounts. So in the contexting you'd "reship" by choking them with more of your own orders, not as you took it to mean by just paying the jacked up price. Although people can get clever and lead you into doing this as a means to scam the inattentive. darnon fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Mar 21, 2014 |
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Mar 21, 2014 16:33
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http://eveskunk.com/e/336580914 posted:(unless you're one of those people that list your stuff under cost to "help the alliance" in which case you got exactly what you deserved). Yeah, gently caress the guys who don't want to dick over their alliance friends by spiking prices that a newbie can't afford.
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Mar 21, 2014 16:39
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I think BNI could be successful in null with better leadership. They obviously have the numbers and the "reshipping" attitude and their enthusiasm is great if there's someone competent pointing everything in the correct direction. Blowing your ship up 5 times an hour is fine if something is getting done - even if it's just welping fleets to help develop FCs. That said, if the development of FCs ends at welping over and over, there's something wrong. I'm still pretty new to this game and there is a ton I don't know about corp and alliance management but it seems like they really underestimated the logistic and financial structure they needed to have in place to be successful as an alliance their size in null. It's pretty clear that whoever paid them took advantage of their lack of knowledge and experience; if you can't even afford to buy t1 tackle frigs for your noobs, you are being grossly underpaid. I think this falls on the leadership that agreed to the deal.
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Mar 21, 2014 16:43
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darnon posted:Yes. The eve-mail is talking about applying that concept from ship pvp to market pvp. If someone buys out your stuff that is still earning you a profit ("whelping") then get more to relist and let them keep feeding you profit out of their accounts. So in the contexting you'd "reship" by choking them with more of your own orders, not as you took it to mean by just paying the jacked up price. Yes, but how exactly does that not still result in higher prices for most? I'm sure over time this'll work out just fine for haulers, but until the relisters "stop", everybody else still ends up paying inflated prices, don't they? Isn't this another one of these things that benefits everybody but the actual newbies who are not involved in hauling, (margin) trading, relisting etc? edit: rephrased Hollow Talk fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Mar 21, 2014 |
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Mar 21, 2014 16:45
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Uba Stij posted:Yeah, gently caress the guys who don't want to dick over their alliance friends by spiking prices that a newbie can't afford. Well hold up now, pricing things under cost is a horrible mistake for most marketeers. Not only are you incredibly susceptible to both in and out of alliance manipulation, you are setting yourself up for easy burnout. No one should advise someone to sell under cost. Slim margins? Certainly possible. But you need to be able to at least keep yourself going.
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Mar 21, 2014 16:48
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Hollow Talk posted:Yes, but how exactly does that not still result in higher prices for most? I'm sure over time this'll work out just fine for haulers, but until the relisters "stop", everybody else still ends up paying inflated prices, don't they? Isn't this another one of these things that benefits everybody but the actual newbies who are not involved in hauling, (margin) trading, relisting etc? If you do it enough they eventually will stop unless they just like giving you free profit. You just have to be careful to do it in modest enough quantities so you don't get left holding the bag with an amount that you can't reasonably move when they do. Those relisters might not even be associated with HERO. It could a third party just taking advantage of you. Blowing up an enemy's market in war-time is a good tactic if you can bankroll it. darnon fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Mar 21, 2014 |
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Mar 21, 2014 16:51
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Stop spelling welp with an h, no one is birthing puppies.
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Mar 21, 2014 16:55
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I'd like to announce I have caused the best three minutes of any Eve stream ever to exist. http://www.twitch.tv/daopa/b/512736127 (skip to 5h:29m unless you really hate yourself) Party cannon Talwar supremacy.
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Mar 21, 2014 17:23
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Hollow Talk posted:I'm also not quite sure how "reshipping", i.e. paying the relisted prices for absolutely everything, hurts the resellers making money off of it, but maybe that's just my limited understanding of how economics work? Back when BoB destroyed goons in Syndicate, people were selling stuff on market. Caracals, for example. BoB would buy them and relist them at like 4 times the price. So a couple of goons started making stuff as fast as they could, using the money BoB was giving them to bring in even more stuff and kept listing it. Meanwhile they were selling stuff to goons at regular rates by just chatting in corp chat or using escrows. Some goons made tons of money off doing that.
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Mar 21, 2014 17:53
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kharaa posted:Looking forward to the BNI post about not selling caracals on the open market Fun fact: their overpriced market is still cheap enough to fit out ships with which to fight them while still making a profit when you die (so long as you are in Goonwaffe).
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Mar 21, 2014 17:54
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Honestly though every person who is importing ships should be selling them fit, on contract, with a reasonable markup. This allows new players to purchase ships they know are doctrine (and thus reimbursable) fit, and promotes ease of access. I love paying for convenience, and a contract doctrine ship is pretty much the height of convenience.
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Mar 21, 2014 17:58
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Deofuta posted:Honestly though every person who is importing ships should be selling them fit, on contract, with a reasonable markup. This allows new players to purchase ships they know are doctrine (and thus reimbursable) fit, and promotes ease of access. I love paying for convenience, and a contract doctrine ship is pretty much the height of convenience. Has anything been mentioned on the BNI forums proposing to encourage people doing that?
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Mar 21, 2014 18:13
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Munin posted:Has anything been mentioned on the BNI forums proposing to encourage people doing that? To be fair, they have got a "super secret contract team" who have been going around and contracting nice pre-fitted doctrine ships pretty well. But the openness of the alliance and the newishness of ordinary members means it is very easy to exploit the contract system for some quick profits. And the lack of any recruitment standards makes it very hard to deal with people who don't play fairly.
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Mar 21, 2014 18:21
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Margaret Thatcher posted:To be fair, they have got a "super secret contract team" who have been going around and contracting nice pre-fitted doctrine ships pretty well. But the openness of the alliance and the newishness of ordinary members means it is very easy to exploit the contract system for some quick profits. Are you saying that only certain folks are allowed to make these contracts? If so that may be the most retarded part of this whole leadership-being-poo poo debacle.
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Mar 21, 2014 18:33
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Beach Bum posted:Are you saying that only certain folks are allowed to make these contracts? If so that may be the most retarded part of this whole leadership-being-poo poo debacle. I don't think its even official, just a group of players trying to offer fair contracts while everybody else makes loads of profit. It's been working well so far. 
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Mar 21, 2014 18:35
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I don't think it's just "the contract" team that puts up contracts. I remember a guy getting called out in coms over his markup percentage. Actually I don't remember if he got called out for his markup or if he came in bitching about being undercut or something but yeah. If guys want to contract stuff and do the work I don't think you have to have any sort of special permission to do it.
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Mar 21, 2014 18:40
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Thaxxas posted:Actually I don't remember if he got called out for his markup or if he came in bitching about being undercut or something but yeah. Hahaha, oh man. That's rich.
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Mar 21, 2014 18:58
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darnon posted:If you do it enough they eventually will stop unless they just like giving you free profit. You just have to be careful to do it in modest enough quantities so you don't get left holding the bag with an amount that you can't reasonably move when they do. CainFortea posted:Back when BoB destroyed goons in Syndicate, people were selling stuff on market. Caracals, for example. BoB would buy them and relist them at like 4 times the price. So a couple of goons started making stuff as fast as they could, using the money BoB was giving them to bring in even more stuff and kept listing it. Meanwhile they were selling stuff to goons at regular rates by just chatting in corp chat or using escrows. Both of your explanations of course make a lot of sense! I was essentially just wondering whether this is a feasible tactic for BNI in particular, since everything you can sell (relisted or not) has to be hauled in, since JF'ing things into system risks getting your freighter (and cargo) blown up, and since Sendaya doesn't have any manufacturing facilities. This means the relisting becomes a lot more disruptive because there is only so much that can be hauled in by using Blockade Runners etc. and that means the "natural" lower boundary will be significantly above Barleguet level because everything has hauling/shipping costs added on top of its actual buying or manufacturing price. Add to that the extra margins added through relisting, and you get a significantly more expensive market that also has a lower turnover rate since it is hamstrung by the speed of hauling, not by the speed of assembly lines etc. Beach Bum posted:Are you saying that only certain folks are allowed to make these contracts? If so that may be the most retarded part of this whole leadership-being-poo poo debacle. Everybody can put up contracts. It's also great because contracts have issuer names attached, so in the case of grossly overpriced or outright scammy contracts, you at least know who's trying to screw over corporation or alliance members. That's at least better than the relisting which can happen mostly anonymously and which is much harder to see live while it is happening.
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Mar 21, 2014 19:00
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My  side really wishes that BNI would dump TEST like a bad habit and join up with Fweddit. They'd have a common Reddit background and wouldn't be burdened by the shitlers in TEST. It makes me sad to think of all those cute newbies having to buy their own ships and getting gouged for it.
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Mar 21, 2014 19:11
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Huge_Midget posted:My Please God No. I don't think Fweddit could handle that influx. Also that would make them blue to the CFC which isn't really in anybodies interest.
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Mar 21, 2014 19:15
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So I did an interview with a guy who convinces carrier pilots to throw their ship away for a community event/gank and will reward the person who gets the final blow with over a billion ISK in donation. http://themittani.com/features/event-gajins-carrier This then brought someone to say "they should try this with a titan" which reminded me of Camar's game of chicken with self destruct in his Avatar. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtBB3JPqa_E If you haven't seen it, its worth watching. He aborts at 1 second left
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Mar 21, 2014 19:16
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Skuto posted:Please God No. I don't think Fweddit could handle that influx. Why not? I think it'd be great to have their numbers in our fleets especially if people can handle the factor.E: Not saying the CFC has problems getting numbers in fleet because we don't but still...
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Mar 21, 2014 19:18
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If any of you are interested, a new BNI EVE-mail was sent by Lychton Kondur about Corpmailgate It actually sounds kind of reasonable which is a surprise.
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Mar 21, 2014 19:32
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Actually yeah, Hollow Talk go join Fweddit. They give out free ships and aren't assholes about things. Plus you can fly with your Goon BFFs that you are already associated with.
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Mar 21, 2014 19:38
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Skuto posted:Please God No. I don't think Fweddit could handle that influx. I don't know, I kind of miss having a pack of completely adorable newbies around. We just need to shoot them before they become space teenagers next time.
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Mar 21, 2014 19:53
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CFC numbers would absolutely crazy with Brave Newbies though. Goonswarm is currently the largest alliance with 12k members, BRAVE following just behind with 8k members. I'm not sure whether that would be a good thing or a bad thing.
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Mar 21, 2014 20:01
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kick_the_penguin posted:If any of you are interested, a new BNI EVE-mail was sent by Lychton Kondur about Corpmailgate And it turned out to be a joke after all, who could have guessed that 
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Mar 21, 2014 20:11
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I hope every single person in BNI replied all to that mail. It is the only real fun per minute solution.
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Mar 21, 2014 20:13
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Deofuta posted:And it turned out to be a joke after all, who could have guessed that I think the joke we was talking about was this, not the over the top threats. Although I don;t think anyone has taken those threats seriously, it's hard to take anything in large red text seriously.
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Mar 21, 2014 20:23
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Yeah I knew which ones were being talked about. I assumed everyone would take the warnings as tongue in cheek, but I suppose it would offend those of a certain sensibility.
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Mar 21, 2014 20:43
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causticBeet posted:if you can't even afford to buy t1 tackle frigs for your noobs, you are being grossly underpaid. I think this falls on the leadership that agreed to the deal. It's a hell of an assumption that space libertarian redditor leadership who refuse to say how much they got paid in the first place aren't getting paid enough to give out free t1 tackle frigs.
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Mar 21, 2014 20:45
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Nietzschean posted:Fun fact: their overpriced market is still cheap enough to fit out ships with which to fight them while still making a profit when you die (so long as you are in Goonwaffe). Space Communism is superior 
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Mar 21, 2014 20:45
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!