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Who in the government stands to make the most from their involvement with TOCs? That will probably be the answer. First group have always been given favourable treatment by Westminster, whether it's First TPE receiving three times as much subsidy than Northern to run three times less services or their confident policy of opening new Traincrew depots and recruiting en masse despite 'uncertainty' over the franchise end in 18 months time.
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Mar 20, 2014 14:21
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Metrication posted:Who will own the IEP trains? Is it government or ROSCOs? I think they are being paid for by the taxpayer but it would seem odd to me that this government would ever let all these lucrative trains with potentially very long returns be owned by the state. Errrrr I'm not really sure, it's all very confusing thanks to the IEP being funded by Public-Private-Clusterfuck so it's loans of £1bn from the Japan Bank for International Cooperation, £1bn from commercial banks and £235million from the European Investment Bank, with the Government stumping up the extra £2.3bn and an extra £1.2bn for trains to replace the 225s on the ECML. 'Agility Trains' who are Hitachi, shitbird PFI pebbledicks John Laing plc and Barclays Private Equity is building and maintaining the trains, but they're paid by the TOC based on train availability, and the government is See the way franchising and bidding and procurement works now it's in the private sector is all very simple really and provides value to 
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Mar 20, 2014 14:30
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Mahmoud Ahmadinejad posted:Errrrr I'm not really sure, it's all very confusing thanks to the IEP being funded by Public-Private-Clusterfuck so it's loans of £1bn from the Japan Bank for International Cooperation, £1bn from commercial banks and £235million from the European Investment Bank, with the Government stumping up the extra £2.3bn and an extra £1.2bn for trains to replace the 225s on the ECML. These loans are to the government right? Not to the parties who will make the cash from the trains?
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Mar 20, 2014 14:39
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Yep!
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Mar 20, 2014 15:03
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Whats the situation with paying for a ticket with a card on the train with the conductor at the moment, some will let you some wont, its weird. I'm talking about a chip and pin one where you have to sign. Yesterday I went to the conductor a very nice lady and her thingy wouldn't work so she very nicely wrote me a note saying sell this man a ticket he came to me and tried. The next connection even after seeing the note the guy wouldn't even try saying we aren't allowed to do this anymore and rather aggressively and jobsworth'ishly practically pushed me to the office at Brighton main and then a very nice man did it. Whats the loving policy, it seems to be dependant on the mood or cuntishness of the conductor. I know for a fact they can do it, they just decide not to sometimes.
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Mar 21, 2014 07:26
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Seaside Loafer posted:Whats the loving policy, it seems to be dependant on the mood or cuntishness of the conductor. It rather depends on how much you smell like you've shat yourself, I'd imagine.
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Mar 21, 2014 08:31
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The policy is that if it is possible to buy before you board the train then you can't buy on board. Wanting to pay by cash at a station that only has a machine that takes cards counts as 'not being able to pay'. Where it gets tricky is if you arrive at a connecting station without the ticket guy getting to you in time, and whether you would be allowed to get on the second train without the ticket still. It would depend on how long your connection is and so is a bit more of a grey area, but you should never be forced to miss a connection. The short of it is that you need to pay at the first opportunity. Another grey area is how long a queue might be at a ticket office. Its completely up to a guards discretion if the queue would be deemed long enough to be a unreasonable wait at the station. Generally it would have to be abnormally long though. If youbdont have a ticket in board, technically the onus is on you to find a guard on board rather than wait for them to come to you, but this isn't always practical so it isn't often enforced (but it can be). Additionally guards will quite often let you buy on board even if you were not 'meant' to be able to, this is often the case if you leave from a small station. This is what confuses most people I think, unfortunately if a RPI happens to already be aboard your train then it is very unlikey they would be as lenient and they would penalise you. Finally if you ever want to board without a ticket at a station, and you are not sure if you are allowed, then talking to the guard before you even board and asking for permission will ensure that you almost always be allowed to buy on board once the train sets off, since its clear you are not trying to fare evade. Its never your fault if the first opportunity to pay is faulty for whatever reason nozz fucked around with this message at 10:23 on Mar 21, 2014 |
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Mar 21, 2014 09:11
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StarkingBarfish posted:It rather depends on how much you smell like you've shat yourself, I'd imagine. e: oh sorry guy above replied.
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Mar 21, 2014 10:18
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When in doubt, buy before you board. Especially if you're getting on a Northern Rail service, they've really been clamping down on it recently. If you do board a train before you buy a ticket, you are technically committing a Byelaw 18 offence and leave yourself open to prosecution; 18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas (1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel. (2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person. (3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if: (i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey; or (ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or (iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket. Hezzy fucked around with this message at 05:22 on Mar 22, 2014 |
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Mar 22, 2014 05:19
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The idea of Northern clamping down on ticket dodging given the amount of stations they operate that are exempt from Byelaw 18 is hilarious.
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Mar 22, 2014 08:27
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Why are they exempt? Are there no ticket machines or something?
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Mar 22, 2014 11:23
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Metrication posted:Why are they exempt? Are there no ticket machines or something? Yeah basically, no means at the station in order to buy tickets. Either there's no machine, ticket office or the machine is broken / ticket office closed. Northern Rail covers a lot of very rural / small stations at which there is probably no electricity, let alone a ticket machine!
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Mar 22, 2014 12:50
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Hezzy posted:Yeah basically, no means at the station in order to buy tickets. Either there's no machine, ticket office or the machine is broken / ticket office closed. Northern Rail covers a lot of very rural / small stations at which there is probably no electricity, let alone a ticket machine! No kidding. I used to commute from Welham Green to Old Street, and half the time the ticket machine would be out of service.
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Mar 22, 2014 19:02
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It's worth mentioning that all ScotRail services allow you to buy a ticket on board whenever there isn't an open ticket office, and even when there is one will allow you to buy a ticket on board but won't give you any discounts (eg. off-peak returns.) This presumably applies to inter-city services that call at ScotRail stations as the signs aren't specific to one TOC. In my experience they're usually even more lenient than that. Just worth mentioning as rail folk from further south are usually pretty absolutist about this stuff but it's a bit more relaxed up here (and "RPI" is still just a measure of inflation.)
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Mar 24, 2014 20:11
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As a tourist landing in London in august and heading to Carlisle that day, what would be the best way for me to get a ticket?
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Mar 25, 2014 07:38
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Jonnty posted:It's worth mentioning that all ScotRail services allow you to buy a ticket on board whenever there isn't an open ticket office, and even when there is one will allow you to buy a ticket on board but won't give you any discounts (eg. off-peak returns.) This presumably applies to inter-city services that call at ScotRail stations as the signs aren't specific to one TOC. In my experience they're usually even more lenient than that. Just worth mentioning as rail folk from further south are usually pretty absolutist about this stuff but it's a bit more relaxed up here (and "RPI" is still just a measure of inflation.) I think that's Northern's unofficial policy too. I've only been stung once by a ticket guard, and that was on TPE when his card reader didn't work. KennyTheFish posted:As a tourist landing in London in august and heading to Carlisle that day, what would be the best way for me to get a ticket? Book online about a month in advance, and then elect to collect your ticket at the station. You'll need the credit card you booked with and the booking reference number, IIRC.
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Mar 25, 2014 08:04
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KennyTheFish posted:As a tourist landing in London in august and heading to Carlisle that day, what would be the best way for me to get a ticket? You can book tickets 13 weeks in advance, either through the train operator's website - Virgin Trains, in this case - or from an intermediary website like The Trainline. Trains go from London Euston station. Nb: Depending on your flight time, it might be quicker to get a connecting flight to Glasgow Airport and take a train from there. Possibly cheaper, too. It's definitely worth being aware that the cheapest train tickets are almost invariably the ones that require you to get a specific train and won't let you board a different service if you miss it. If I was you, I'd probably go for the connecting flight; if your inbound flight is late arriving, the airline will probably try to fit you on the next connecting flight (and it's Glasgow, so I'd imagine there'd be space) and a turn-up-on-the-day off-peak single from Glasgow to Carlisle (£23) is a gently caress-load cheaper than a similar ticket from London to Carlisle (£110).
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Mar 25, 2014 08:16
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it's an early morning arrival. Thanks for the advice.
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Mar 25, 2014 08:27
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Bozza's top tips for not getting mugged by the Revenue Protection Fascists: -Always buy a ticket when you reasonably can. If only so you can become proficient at using the ticket machines which I am sure are intentionally confusing -If it's an open station, try and find the guard or train manager as soon as you get on (before if you can). These guys are a lot more reasonable, especially if you say "ticket machine was busted mate" before you ask for it. - If its a closed station with barriers and you're running late, speak to the barrier man and get them to let you through if you're running late then do the above. This is the most risky. - If you live in an area with Driver Only Operation, for the love of god, get there early and get a ticket because these services are the hunting grounds of Revenue Protection who are terrible. -Take any "don't do it again" type claptrap on the chin If you deal with the actual operational rail staff, they are 1000x more reasonable and understanding than the other bastards who are nearly universally little Hitler's.
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Mar 25, 2014 10:27
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KennyTheFish posted:it's an early morning arrival. Thanks for the advice. Look into interrail or acprail or something like that, depending on age/days travelling/where you're going you might be able to get a ticket for £90 that covers you for far more places than carlisle.
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Mar 25, 2014 10:42
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Bozza posted:If you deal with the actual operational rail staff, they are 1000x more reasonable and understanding than the other bastards who are nearly universally little Hitler's. Probably because they usually get commission on the tickets they sell 
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Mar 25, 2014 13:35
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^^^ Really? Whats the policy on a no barrier station where it pulls up just as you get there and need to just get on it to be on time, this happens allot to me. Even if you go straight to the person some people will happily sell and some will start demanding your address and stuff, even the non-revenue dudes. There honestly just doesnt seem to be a policy, its just a what mood im in type thing. I seem to do better if im wearing my reading glasses.
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Mar 25, 2014 14:26
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Seaside Loafer posted:some will start demanding your address and stuff, even the non-revenue dudes.
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Mar 25, 2014 14:29
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Semprini posted:If they don't also ask for ID and you're genuinely not trying to dodge the fare, I'd have no qualms giving an address of 123 Fake Street (or something slightly more plausible sounding) Seaside Loafer fucked around with this message at 14:33 on Mar 25, 2014 |
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Mar 25, 2014 14:31
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If you're at a manned station, then they won't sell you a ticket on the train because they're, in effect, condoning you boarding a train without having purchased a ticket. The logic is that if you've done it once, then you've done it fifty times - and how many times out of that fifty have you travelled for free? If it's a genuine error with timing, then you should hunt down the train manager straight away and explain. Chances are, they'll accept your story much more readily and sell you a ticket if you actively seek them out. If you're routinely turning up to the station as the train is pulling up, then you need to either purchase tickets in advance, or revise your schedule.
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Mar 25, 2014 14:52
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Testro posted:If you're at a manned station, then they won't sell you a ticket on the train because they're, in effect, condoning you boarding a train without having purchased a ticket. The logic is that if you've done it once, then you've done it fifty times - and how many times out of that fifty have you travelled for free? But if you go straight to the person and ask to buy a ticket why do some say no and some say yes? e: This a narritive of what happens Most of time you walk towards front of train say "hi i just got on at blah blah, could i have a return to blah blah please" "sure here you go that will be blah blah" Rarely its hi i just got on at blah blah, could i have a return to blah blah please" "I cant do that where do you live" its hosed up, it is totally dependant on how good a morning the conductor had, maybe he/she had a good gently caress or breakfast before he/she went out, its loving mystical Seaside Loafer fucked around with this message at 15:10 on Mar 25, 2014 |
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Mar 25, 2014 14:59
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Is it a manned station? If it is, some people take their job really seriously, and have the attitude that you had the opportunity to buy a ticket and chose not to. Your narrative with them should really be more along the lines of, "Hi, I'm sorry that I jumped on without buying a ticket - *insert plausible reason why here*. Would it be possible to buy a ticket from x to y?" - they'll want you to explain yourself. Apart from that, staff talk to each other. If you're making a regular thing of it, maybe you've annoyed someone and now they're giving you less leeway?
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Mar 25, 2014 17:02
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Its rarely manned and if you re-read what I said I'm talking about the times the trains pulling up as I get there and Ive gotta get on it. My main question is why its down to the discretion of whatever individual as to whether or not just be nice and sell me my loving ticket or go into nazi mode.quote:Apart from that, staff talk to each other. If you're making a regular thing of it, maybe you've annoyed someone and now they're giving you less leeway? fucks sake if i become ruler of the uk im going to nationzlise the lot of it and put robots in charge Seaside Loafer fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Mar 25, 2014 |
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Mar 25, 2014 17:26
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Seaside Loafer posted:My main question is why its down to the discretion of whatever individual as to whether or not just be nice and sell me my loving ticket or go into nazi mode. Because some people are nice and some people are fascist shits. The policy is for them all to be fascist shits.
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Mar 25, 2014 17:32
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Seaside Loafer posted:Its rarely manned and if you re-read what I said I'm talking about the times the trains pulling up as I get there and Ive gotta get on it. My main question is why its down to the discretion of whatever individual as to whether or not just be nice and sell me my loving ticket or go into nazi mode. If there's a point where you can buy a ticket before boarding, then you should. If there isn't anywhere for you to purchase a ticket (i.e. no ticket office, no ticket machine, broken ticket machine), then you can safely board the train and realistically expect to buy one on board. Your station is either classed as manned or unmanned; there's no such thing as rarely manned. If you insist on regularly turning up for a train at the last second and you don't leave enough time to purchase a ticket, then that's your problem. Revise your schedule, or purchase a ticket in advance. You're not a special snowflake who deserves unique treatment. If you put a robot in charge, you'd find that you get charged a penalty fare each time - because you're supposed to buy a ticket before boarding from a manned station. As for your main question, I answered it with the part that you thought made even less sense. You are supposed to buy a ticket. Apparently, you are routinely boarding trains without a ticket. The staff, presumably, have some discretion as to whether they sell you a ticket or they give you a penalty fare. Their reluctance to sell you a ticket might be because they're sick of you boarding the train without a ticket, and maybe they're trying to hammer it home to you that boarding without a ticket should be a one-off and not a regular occurrence. What happens when you board a train without a ticket and nobody comes around to look at your ticket? What do you do then?
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Mar 25, 2014 18:37
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Its a 10 station trip with a connection, with barriers at the destination, and i want a weekly season, i cant possibly be blagging it and ive got a loving railcard with all my other seasons in it, just sell me my ticket! And no nobody loving knows me, its a very busy line, and even if they did it still doesnt make any sense for the make it up as you go rule.
Seaside Loafer fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Mar 25, 2014 |
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Mar 25, 2014 18:47
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I thought it was against the law to board a train without a valid ticket regardless of intent.
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Mar 25, 2014 18:50
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I give up, you guys sound like the jobsworth nazis who while having their union rights caned for a business that shouldnt be in private ownership in the first place are still happy to loving enforce the letter of the law as opposed to the spirit of the law. Enjoy your 18 grand a year i guess, sell outs.
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Mar 25, 2014 18:57
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It's not a make-it-up-as-you-go rule though. The rule is that you have to buy a ticket before boarding the train. You're not abiding by that rule, and then you're unhappy when some staff let you off and other staff give you grief. Just because the staff can apply leniency doesn't mean that they have to. Do you genuinely not understand why you're supposed to buy a ticket before you travel?
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Mar 25, 2014 19:02
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I like the way you've skimmed over why you couldn't buy a ticket somewhere that's not on the train
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Mar 25, 2014 19:04
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Seaside Loafer posted:I give up, you guys sound like the jobsworth nazis who while having their union rights caned for a business that shouldnt be in private ownership in the first place are still happy to loving enforce the letter of the law as opposed to the spirit of the law. Who here is enforcing anything? Those are the rules, whether we like them or not, whether they should be or not. At the moment we can't change the rules. If you don't want to be caught out then follow the rules as much as you can.
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Mar 25, 2014 19:06
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In my experience, TPE have always been accepting of the excuse "got on at Brighouse, guard didn't come round to me". Because that's usually what happens if I have to buy on the TPE train. Even though Brighouse stopped being an easement for Huddersfield recently.
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Mar 25, 2014 19:06
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Seaside Loafer posted:I give up, you guys sound like the jobsworth nazis who while having their union rights caned for a business that shouldnt be in private ownership in the first place are still happy to loving enforce the letter of the law as opposed to the spirit of the law. I dunno about that mate, I'm just surprised you're allowed to buy a ticket on a train. In London the only option is buy a ticket or have a valid pass before you board or they will gently caress you (it is trespassing otherwise I think). Even if it's not intentional or is an accident you can still be prosecuted because they don't have to prove intent to evade fares for one of the byelaws (I forget which it is). I can only assume Oyster killed ticket buying on trains because I don't recall ever being able to do that. It's funny because this is the place where the privately owned TOCs are guaranteed to make a massive profit, and yet are clamping down hard on fare 'evasion'. In places where taxpayer subsidy is probably the only thing keeping them afloat is where the most relaxed attitude appears to be.
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Mar 25, 2014 19:08
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MrL_JaKiri posted:I like the way you've skimmed over why you couldn't buy a ticket somewhere that's not on the train
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Mar 25, 2014 19:12
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I don't think it's against the law to board a train without a ticket regardless of intent, it is against the law to purposefully attempt to evade the fare for the journey. And if you try and short fare a journey or take the more radical step of altering your ticket with a pen then you are in fraud territory which is when a serious hard on for prosecution begins. I am a guard, I take a more relaxed approach to retail than some of my colleagues however this is because as far as I'm concerned the more and more emphasis put on safety (especially regarding operation of the doors at stations) means that it is simply impossible to get everyone and I'm not going to make myself miserable stressing out about something I can't control. I work on some rural lines, and here in the north west I'd say in my area at least you would be unlucky to meet a guard who would be funny with you for boarding at a manned station without a ticket as long as you were willing to pay. Most guards get commission on ticket sales, I don't think Retail Protection staff do however. Most Traincrew also hate retail protection staff as they are similarly arsey towards members of Traincrew from other TOCs, I heard that a Northern Driver and Guard got an early finish a while back and were booked to travel home on a Virgin service but elected to go home on the earlier service (since their train was cancelled so had no further duties) only for the Virgin RPI staff to kick them off. So I can sympathise with passengers on that front. Some people are just arseholes unfortunately, I know a guy who has stopped a train because an OAP was 20p short for her fare, there was a Virgin Train Manager who charged a Northern crew for the fare despite them being booked to travel on that service. It definitely seems to be more strict the further south you travel with regards to being in possession of a ticket prior to boarding. The Metrolink is a bastard for stinging people for fines as you can't buy a ticket on board from what I've heard.
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Mar 25, 2014 19:14
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