Xguard86 posted:I did but for me they're already above my range so I don't have a good number to counter with since I don't really know what's reasonable. I'll have to go over the offer in detail and see. How badly do you want the switch? It's rare, but offers do occasionally get pulled.
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# ? Mar 24, 2014 19:17 |
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# ? Jun 6, 2024 05:51 |
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Current job is ok but new one is better long term. I did notice the 401k is discretionary per year. Is it reasonable to ask for an assured match or parlay that to just more on my base pay?
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# ? Mar 24, 2014 19:24 |
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Harry posted:How badly do you want the switch? It's rare, but offers do occasionally get pulled. Do you really want to work for a company that pulled an offer because you tried to negotiate? That seems like huge red flag to me. I believe that 401k match is required by law to be consistent among employee bands . I would just ask for a larger base salary.
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# ? Mar 24, 2014 19:36 |
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spwrozek posted:Where I work if you go up a grade it is 10% that's it. A lateral is 4% max. drat. My fiancee and I both work at the same company and she got a 23% bump after going one grade level up when she transferred to current position. She didn't bother negotiating because it was well above what she was expecting. If I'm offered this position, I want to ask for more, but I figure they're just going to laugh at me and tell me it's non-negotiable.
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# ? Mar 24, 2014 19:37 |
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You'll never know if you don't ask.
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# ? Mar 24, 2014 19:44 |
asur posted:Do you really want to work for a company that pulled an offer because you tried to negotiate? That seems like huge red flag to me. I agree, but this is a significant raise and I don't think he put the jump in more defined figures. There's a difference between going from 20k to 50k and 90k to 120k.
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# ? Mar 24, 2014 19:52 |
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my bonus possibilities make it a little fuzzy but lets say low 50s now to 80 flat. That is, low 50s is assured and then best case bonus I'm mid 60's. Most likely I would end up high 50 low 60 given what I've seen before from the bonus pool but then again bonuses can be zero too. They don't do bonuses for the new position, so it would not vary. One thing I do need to ask is where I end up on the org chart and if I'm coming in closer or farther from the next level. I would, most likely, be promoted here in a year two on the outside (obviously for less money).
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# ? Mar 24, 2014 20:32 |
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I would double check how soon bonus' kick in. Is it one calendar year, plus wait till year-end for the bonus? Is it 2 years, plus the 8-month wait till year-end?
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# ? Mar 24, 2014 20:42 |
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There's literally no reason not to ask for more. If that's their opening number it's because they EXPECT you to try to pull it higher and they want to have a base to negotiate off of. Wouldn't be crazy for them to be willing to go to $90k+. 10-15% 'room' is fairly standard on an opening offer. Have you looked at external sources? They might provide you with a benchmark for the position - any evidence you can provide to support a higher number helps your case. If you're looking at a salary website, try being more and less selective on the salary comparison criteria (programmers vs say AI programmers with experience coding Skynet in QBASIC). You can be selective in your data so long as your selection is reasonably justifiable.
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# ? Mar 24, 2014 20:44 |
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Spermy Smurf posted:I would double check how soon bonus' kick in. Is it one calendar year, plus wait till year-end for the bonus? Is it 2 years, plus the 8-month wait till year-end? sorry was saying that the new job has zero bonuses, old job has more. Kalenn Istarion posted:There's literally no reason not to ask for more. If that's their opening number it's because they EXPECT you to try to pull it higher and they want to have a base to negotiate off of. Wouldn't be crazy for them to be willing to go to $90k+. 10-15% 'room' is fairly standard on an opening offer. I have and it seems like I'm pretty much in the middle of the reported salaries for the position in the company, and the field/title in general.
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# ? Mar 24, 2014 20:57 |
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Shoot for the top then! Obviously they like something about you. Hopefully you have a sense of what that was from the interview and follow-up convo. Try to focus on that and consider using some of the language from Korovyev's response above to be firm in what you want while staying positive and friendly. You'll need to change the angle a bit as they're not missing a target you have them but rather paying 'below your expectations for the job based on public an industry references' or something like that. As in Korovyev's message, include all your questions about the soft items as well as the comp package should be negotiated and clarified as a whole rather than piecemeal.
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# ? Mar 24, 2014 21:26 |
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Ya, you're right I'll regret not asking. I've read those articles that they're invested too and I'm trying to remember that. My plan right now is to ask where I would be in the organization regarding pay bands and promotion time, and then ask to be closer to the next level. Because I don't have a real "please pay me X" I think thats a better frame and I feel more comfortable discussing that than asking straight up for more money.
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# ? Mar 24, 2014 21:37 |
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Trying to negotiate for more should always be something that you should feel comfortable doing. However, remember to never overplay your hand. Specifically: You don't have a target to go higher to. You don't have a valuation that you're trying to meet, you don't have any form of concrete goal in mind to get to. You used to, and they started off overshooting that. I cannot stress enough the importance in realizing when you've won. In light of the above it will be incredibly easy for you to come off as greedy and just trying to get more. You don't have a goal in sight, negotiating is just trying to see how much you can pump up what you're getting. Think about this. Right now I would suggest that your prior goal may be based on undervaluing yourself. You should correct your valuation with this new data, determine a new figure, and make it your new goal. Alternatively your valuation was accurate and you have found an opportunity that pays above market. If they pay above market and know they pay above market deliberately, that in itself is a good sign! If they know they pay above market, then they will probably not be inclined to wiggle much more with you. I think the most important thing you could do is have more data to inform your valuation. You certainly should understand that your stated goal is met and that you do not want to play hardball with this employer, thusly jeopardizing that goal. You very likely do not have a fully accurate valuation of your talents. I am inclined to believe this will be one of the very few times I will say something like this in this thread: You would not be foolish, XGuard86, to accept the offer you were granted without further negotiation. All that said, it never hurts to ask.
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# ? Mar 24, 2014 21:42 |
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:I am inclined to believe this will be one of the very few times I will say something like this in this thread: You would not be foolish, XGuard86, to accept the offer you were granted without further negotiation. I'm a snowflake! YES Thanks D Eisenhower, your advice as usual is really well reasoned. If its any reference, if I accept this offer as is I would be doubling my first paycheck within 4 years out of school. I don't know if that's typical, or maybe just recovering from a kind of bad start. Part of the appeal of just taking the deal is that I can meet that goal right now, versus the small risk I might lose it.
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# ? Mar 24, 2014 21:59 |
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^depends on what you started at and the industry I would guessHand of the King posted:drat. My fiancee and I both work at the same company and she got a 23% bump after going one grade level up when she transferred to current position. She didn't bother negotiating because it was well above what she was expecting. Regulated utility so.... But 10% raise is pretty sweet based on what I am paid (just got promoted in December) spwrozek fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Mar 24, 2014 |
# ? Mar 24, 2014 22:00 |
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:Trying to negotiate for more should always be something that you should feel comfortable doing. However, remember to never overplay your hand. Specifically: I'm glad to see you say that. One time I had a salary negotiation all planned out. I had low, medium and high numbers in my head, I watched videos about negotiation, etc... Heck I even had a spreadsheet open that would instantly turn any offer/counteroffer into a bunch of calculations that would tell me what the salary really meant in terms of various aspects of my life and expenses. I wanted to be ready to respond to anything since it was all going to be on the phone and I was 99.999% going to be moving forward no matter what (since I really wanted the opportunity) so it was extra important that everyone have a good experience with the negotiation since we would almost certainly be working together. And then the offer exceeded my top amount/intended counter by 10%. Not only that but it came in just a touch under the top of the pay band and about 30% higher than what I was imagining. I made the-in-the moment decision to NOT try to negotiate on salary. It was already well over what I'd been calculating in terms of living expenses and knew it couldn't go much higher anyway. But after telling them how excited I was that they wanted me to join their group I did move right on to asking for other stuff. Used all the same negotiation techniques in making the business case for additional benefits and got all those too. So if the number is something that really makes you happy already and you decide that for you the negotiations should focus on something else then that can work out very well too. No shame in that game!
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# ? Mar 24, 2014 22:27 |
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sent a response asking for details on the 401(k), my spot on the payband and how reviews work plus a question on the laptop I'd be using (minor just kind of curious). I didn't say anything about a counter offer or requests yet since it depends on the 401(k) and pay stuff. Researching salary for the position and comparing benefits they look about standard for the position and industry. I tried to keep the tone friendly because I like the company and from what I can tell its a very fair offer.
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# ? Mar 25, 2014 02:15 |
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wow fast response from the company. 401k is good but I went ahead and asked about a little more, 84k which puts me a little above the local average per glass door. I figure thats not an insane number and if its a no then I'm ok with 80 EDIT: I'll just edit this one so I don't turn this thread into a blog. I got a solid no to more money. I'm happy at the pay with the benefits, PTO healthcare etc (and its better than what I have now too). However thanks to the thread because I feel really good that I got the nerve to ask and I will be more confident in the future. Xguard86 fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Mar 25, 2014 |
# ? Mar 25, 2014 02:37 |
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Congrats - a good outcome regardless of no bump. Doubling your pay in 4 years is a good outcome. Enjoy the new job!
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# ? Mar 25, 2014 03:11 |
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Kalenn Istarion posted:Congrats - a good outcome regardless of no bump. Doubling your pay in 4 years is a good outcome. Enjoy the new job! Thanks. My gf, of all people was like "they wouldn't go higher?" I told her that if I said they offered 75 and I got them to 80 would she be happy?She realized the point. I'm really glad I posted here and got the advice especially from Eisenhower because I could see myself having that reaction without the counsel to see a win and not over reach.
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# ? Mar 25, 2014 03:33 |
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Exactly. Very good outcome of the overall offer experience. I think that the more nuanced truth might be that the goal of a good negotiation isn't just to get the most monies (the world isn't a Donald Trump book) but rather for both parties to leave the table feel confident that they're making the right choice. A lot of times that might mean "get the most money" but it doesn't have to look exactly like that. Everyone has different situations. Happy for you.
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# ? Mar 25, 2014 08:02 |
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Xguard86 posted:Thanks. My gf, of all people was like "they wouldn't go higher?" I told her that if I said they offered 75 and I got them to 80 would she be happy?She realized the point. I'm really glad I posted here and got the advice especially from Eisenhower because I could see myself having that reaction without the counsel to see a win and not over reach. Congratulations! That's an excellent way to describe your situation; sometimes it's so easy to get caught up in the process that you forget to look hard at the outcomes. corkskroo's got it 100% right, the general tenor of this thread will tend toward telling people that they should be aggressive, that's because the general tenor of salary negotiations is an adversarial encounter where the other party is trying to screw you. Sometimes you can start off with a good proposition that makes everyone happy, and in those cases it can often be an indicator that immaterial qualities will be good too.
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# ? Mar 25, 2014 15:49 |
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Okay, so I'm at a place now that's badly underpaying me for my job. I make 60 percent of the median pay for a sales assisstant, and the thing is, I'm slumming it with this job anyway. I have a BA and did selling for two years, I basically took this job because I had been unemployed for 9 months and I needed something, anything, and they were all "yeah, you'll be promoted to a sales rep when one of them leaves". My 60 day review is coming up, and they'll be talking about a raise. I need a 25 percent raise to hit the "bottom 10 percent" line for sales assisstants, and gently caress if I'm going to be satisfied with that. I'm making less than half of what I made in my first job out of college. Right now, after taxes, I make about 350 dollars a week, so with student loans and my health insurance starting up soon (at 60 bucks a week!), I need a gigantic raise. I can't get my own place or anything on what they're paying me now. So, how do you negotiate after stupidly taking a job offer you didn't negotiate enough? Do I beat them over the head with BLS pay statistics and my credentials? Try to line something up so I can threaten to walk? Just get a job somewhere else? One bargaining chip I know they're going to bring out is the stock options. I don't see a dime of that until I've been with the company for three years, and on what they're paying me now, I can't afford to do that, so it's going to be really hard to not laugh when that comes up.
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# ? Mar 27, 2014 02:02 |
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Ugly In The Morning posted:Just get a job somewhere else? Any of the other options could work, but realistically this is your best option.
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# ? Mar 27, 2014 02:23 |
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It's a lot easier to negotiate when you've got an alternative (called a BATNA or best alternative to a negotiated agreement). Right now your alternative to a negotiated raise is quitting. Your best tactic is to go out and look for something else before your review discussion. If that's not possible then you have to fall back on trying to use the statistics to argue your case. If they like you, then you have a bit of leverage, but the minute they push back, without that BATNA you aren't going to be able to defend your position well.
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# ? Mar 27, 2014 15:58 |
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Ugly In The Morning posted:Okay, so I'm at a place now that's badly underpaying me for my job. I make 60 percent of the median pay for a sales assisstant, and the thing is, I'm slumming it with this job anyway. I have a BA and did selling for two years, I basically took this job because I had been unemployed for 9 months and I needed something, anything, and they were all "yeah, you'll be promoted to a sales rep when one of them leaves". My 60 day review is coming up, and they'll be talking about a raise. Line something up so you can walk if they won't meet the market value. Don't make it about threatening, or loyalty, right or wrong. Make it about your time is worth something and you know that it's worth more than they're paying you. Tell them why you know that it's worth more than they're paying you, because you got an offer somewhere else. Then let them do as they will, and walk if they don't play ball. I've never seen an employee stock option plan that was worth anything significant. You might get a few thousandths of a percent ownership of a company that might be worth something at some point in time. But do you think the odds of that are good if they can't retain talent with proper compensation?
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# ? Mar 27, 2014 16:03 |
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What are good resources to check what actual market value for your skillset/what the job should be paying/company reputations etc? I know about GlassDoor.com, but I'm sure there are other useful references. What's recommended?
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# ? Mar 27, 2014 18:55 |
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Fiedler posted:A synopsis: It's me again. Here's where things stand: Company A - I declined the offer. The other offers are too compelling to work for a company whose future is, in my view, uncertain. Company B - Growing impatient. Company C - As anticipated, offered current salary plus 25%, with annual bonus between 5-15%. Also growing impatient. Company D - Offered current salary plus 51%, signing bonus of 3.5% of current salary, signing stock award of 17.5% of current salary (vesting over 5 years), annual bonus between 10-20%, and annual stock award of between 2.5% to 11.5% of current salary (vesting over 5 years), plus cost of relocation. Since this position is not local, I have to account for an increase in cost of living. Based on online listings I could find, I anticipate the cost of housing will be 2 to 2.5 times higher in this area, but I'm not certain of the best source for information on overall cost of living differences. The sources I have found seem off. Company D is aware that I have other offers, but I have not disclosed the amounts of those offers. They are aware of my current salary. I have a strong preference for Company D, and the offer seems reasonable in comparison with the others, when adjusted for cost of living. I feel like I've won and would like to accept their offer, but I keep coming back to the thought that I should counter their offer, because the worst probable response would be having to hear the word no, right? And if I were to counter, what would be a reasonable amount? Their offered base salary plus, say, 8k?
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# ? Mar 27, 2014 20:21 |
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Fiedler posted:Company D - Offered current salary plus 51%, signing bonus of 3.5% of current salary, signing stock award of 17.5% of current salary (vesting over 5 years), annual bonus between 10-20%, and annual stock award of between 2.5% to 11.5% of current salary (vesting over 5 years), plus cost of relocation. Since this position is not local, I have to account for an increase in cost of living. Based on online listings I could find, I anticipate the cost of housing will be 2 to 2.5 times higher in this area, but I'm not certain of the best source for information on overall cost of living differences. The sources I have found seem off. Company D is aware that I have other offers, but I have not disclosed the amounts of those offers. They are aware of my current salary. No, the worst response would be for them to pull the offer. It's like what was said earlier: know when you've won and accept it. Don't negotiate just to negotiate. You've got an offer from a company you want to work for, at an offer you find reasonable, with opportunities for future earnings in the form of bonuses and stock options, and they're paying for your relocation. You've not just won, you basically hit the jackpot. Accept it and be happy
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# ? Mar 27, 2014 20:27 |
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I was going say: take it from my story that you've gotten what you want, don't move the goal post just because. Also a 51% raise is enormous and the rest sounds very nice too. So its not like you're settling.
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# ? Mar 27, 2014 20:30 |
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.
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# ? Mar 27, 2014 20:34 |
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Fiedler posted:I have a strong preference for Company D, and the offer seems reasonable in comparison with the others, when adjusted for cost of living. I feel like I've won and would like to accept their offer, but I keep coming back to the thought that I should counter their offer, because the worst probable response would be having to hear the word no, right? And if I were to counter, what would be a reasonable amount? Their offered base salary plus, say, 8k? Dwight Eisenhower posted:I cannot stress enough the importance in realizing when you've won. Dude everyone above me is right. That's a pretty large equity grant in my experience, with bolstering equity over time. It's a 50+% pay raise over your current salary. They want you. Compared to the market you've sampled, they're paying 11% more than the next highest data point you have in salary alone.
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# ? Mar 27, 2014 21:02 |
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Fiedler posted:
That's a winning offer right there. Be careful about countering a strong offer. We've pulled offer sheets from folks we decided were too motivated by money. It's a red flag that they won't be around for a while and it's not worth hiring them. My only concern is about moving to a high cost of living area. I live in Texas now and my household income affords me a very nice standard of living. We have an office in the Bay Area and a 50% salary increase wouldn't be worth it for me to move there. It's just too drat expensive to live there and try to have something similar to my standard of living here. Between taxes and housing costs they would have to at least double my salary for me to even consider it.
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# ? Mar 27, 2014 21:38 |
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Thanks everyone. Regarding cost of living, most cost of living calculators I've seen suggest a 20% increase. Should I assume that they're generally in the ballpark?
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# ? Mar 27, 2014 21:51 |
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My friends and I have found this calculator pretty spot on. http://money.cnn.com/calculator/pf/cost-of-living/
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# ? Mar 27, 2014 21:56 |
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skipdogg posted:That's a winning offer right there. Be careful about countering a strong offer. We've pulled offer sheets from folks we decided were too motivated by money. It's a red flag that they won't be around for a while and it's not worth hiring them. It's all about what you want out of life. I moved from a medium COL city to one of the highest. So my rent now dwarfs all my previous living expenses. My salary is much higher as well, but not enough to make up the difference. But I'm enjoying where I live so much more as well. Did I maintain my "standard of living" in terms of square footage or ability to make car payments or buying all organic produce or whatever? No. But my standard of living in many other areas (that I happen to value over those things) went up anyway. I'm a big proponent of relocating to a more lively environment but not everyone wants what I want out of life.
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# ? Mar 27, 2014 21:57 |
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Very true, excellent point. I'm a married guy in his early 30's with 2 kids, a high earning mid/late 20's person who is single would probably find my life very very boring.
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# ? Mar 27, 2014 22:02 |
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skipdogg posted:Very true, excellent point. I'm a married guy in his early 30's with 2 kids, a high earning mid/late 20's person who is single would probably find my life very very boring. I'm almost 40. It's not about boring/not boring. It's just about what you happen to value. (I know you weren't taking it that way, but I just want to reinforce that there's no one size fits all formula.)
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# ? Mar 27, 2014 22:08 |
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spwrozek posted:My friends and I have found this calculator pretty spot on. Are there any CoL calculators out there that can get the math right for living in one state and working in another?
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# ? Mar 27, 2014 22:15 |
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# ? Jun 6, 2024 05:51 |
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I asked this question in the newbies finance thread so apologies in advance if it's not appropriate for me to ask again here. Let's say I'm making 100k as a permanent employee. What salary do I need to ask for if I were to go into contracting? What does insurance and assorted overhead cost in the US?
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# ? Mar 27, 2014 23:20 |