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Zoness posted:I can't think of a real reason aside from slow play that U/W/x control should be a more egregiously slow deck than 4-color gifts (Champions Block) or U/B teachings (TSP block and TSP standard) were, especially in their respective mirrors. U/W/x control decks play like, 10 relevant cards in the mirror, tops. Okay, 36 if you count lands. I could see the games (especially game 1s) going that slow if it's specifically an Elixir mirror (where often the only way you can win is by decking the other guy naturally) and where people don't prioritize threat cards (which like you said, there are almost none of) correctly.
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Mar 24, 2014 23:20
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Attorney at Funk posted:Yeah but that's not a useful definition of the word 'mistake'. I don't think a card must be at least as abstractly and contextlessly powerful as Sphinx's Revelation for it to be better if it hadn't have been printed. True, I guess I just don't think Pack Rat is good enough that anyone would call it a mistake. An easier argument could be made that reprinting Mutavault was the real mistake, since it's a more all-encompassing card and is the only reason Pack Rat is fast enough to work in Standard.
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Mar 24, 2014 23:20
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Brownhat posted:I hate U/W control because it slows down tournaments. I was judging a Standard event where two control players couldn't finish a single game in time. 0/0/1 draws are dumb. They're especially dumb when both players can be playing at a reasonable pace and still no one wins in 50+ minutes. This is certainly a problem, but it's mostly the players (and partially certain builds of the deck). Many of these players play the game to not lose, and as such they are comfortable playing a super long game with one win condition in their deck. I'll see them draw it but refuse to take any risk in playing it even when the game is sewn up tight because if they just wait six more turns they can cast it AND have double counter backup! They also play incredibly slowly. Saturday night I played against UW and drew even though I dominated game 2 and was 2 turns short of winning game 3, because my durdle-y opponent refused to concede game 1 and took ages on every single decision. I play bant control, and the reason for that is WIN CONDITIONS! I still control the board, still have counterspells, but I have a PLAN and don't just durdle all game until I say, "OK, 15 lands is enough to make a move finally." I'm ticking up Kiora to release the kraken, I'm playing Elspeth and attacking with tokens and Mutavaults, I have a mainboard Aetherling to close out the mirror game 1, I have Mistcutters, Brimaz, and Angels in games 2 and 3. I can play the long game, but I can also take a risk and make you answer threats, then put the game out of your reach with a Revelation. UW with nothing but one Elspeth and an Elixir pisses me off to no end, though, especially online. My point being that it's the players. If not overly cautious, the majority of them are at the very least extremely slow because they're inexperienced. I think there's nothing wrong with playing control if you play regularly, practice with the deck, and can react quickly (another key is knowing every OTHER deck so you can process your options quickly after the opponent makes a play). If you just bought the deck because it did well in an event and think you know what you're doing, you're gonna have a bad time (and go to time).
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Mar 24, 2014 23:20
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Mortimer posted:Uh, I've seen mono decks in every color?  The reason why I'm excluding aggro (probably shouldn't have used the pejorative, sorry) is because people trying mono-red aggro is pretty much a gimme, likewise white; it doesn't mean they stay good against the usual barrage of multicolored goodstuff decks, brief metagame calls aside. My point was that Theros instantly spawned a bunch of mono-colored or nearly mono-colored midrange decks and that's something pretty awesome.Even if you think mono-colored decks aren't original and that there are only two of them viable currently, doesn't that at the very least maintain parity with Sphinx's Rev decks?
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Mar 24, 2014 23:30
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qbert posted:True, I guess I just don't think Pack Rat is good enough that anyone would call it a mistake. An easier argument could be made that reprinting Mutavault was the real mistake, since it's a more all-encompassing card and is the only reason Pack Rat is fast enough to work in Standard. This is why I think there's considerations besides power level to identify mistakes. Mutavault is a great card, yeah, but it's great in a good way. As a manland it lets you both have and use your mana more often, as a colorless land it creates an incentive for disciplined mana bases, as a Changeling it's got all these neat little marginal synergies... it's just good Magic. Pack Rat, though, when it's working, in Limited or Constructed, is a card that asks you to stop casting and resolving spells for the rest of the game. It has a negative, degenerate effect on gameplay - the Plan A of Monoblack Devotion for the whole season has been "I have 57 Pack Rats; I dare you to beat them". It's powerful enough to see play and the play it creates is awful. I do think there's some merit to hating on Mutavault, though, and it's this: between Thoughtseize and Mutavault, two of the linchpin cards of the format are reprints. That, I think, goes a long way towards making Standard feel a little staler than it might actually be if you were to look at the numbers.
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Mar 24, 2014 23:31
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Pinwiz11 posted:I'm just sick of Control players with no personality. I get why you are playing the deck, but be more than a Magic-playing robot dammit. This sounds like an amazing gimmick. BEEP BOOP DEPLOYING AETHERLING. PASS TURN. EDIT: How did he get herrrrree? What does he waaaaaaaant? He wants Jaaaaaaaace. Boxman fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Mar 24, 2014 |
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Mar 24, 2014 23:37
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Boxman posted:This sounds like an amazing gimmick. WARNING. ASSCRACK FULLY OCCLUDED. ENGAGING EMERGENCY PROTOCOLS. ... PANTS LOWERED BY FIVE CENTIMETERS. STEREOTYPE SUCCESSFULLY RESTORED. PROCEED.
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Mar 24, 2014 23:40
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Gilg posted:Any recommendations on software to keep track of your inventory of cards? Searching reveals a lot of different options, like http://deckbox.org/ and http://www.slightlymagic.net/wiki/Magic_Album but it's hard to pick one. I personally have started using Magic Assistant to inventory my Commander Decks after I tried using Deckbox and not working the way I expected. I haven't started on my inventory of anything other than Decks yet(due to laziness), but it has worked for me so far.
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Mar 24, 2014 23:42
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Toshimo posted:Because demand increased while supply remained constant. Holy gently caress my foil Thalia is worth fifty loving dollars?!?!?!?
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Mar 24, 2014 23:53
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BaronVonVaderham posted:This is certainly a problem, but it's mostly the players (and partially certain builds of the deck). Many of these players play the game to not lose, and as such they are comfortable playing a super long game with one win condition in their deck. I'll see them draw it but refuse to take any risk in playing it even when the game is sewn up tight because if they just wait six more turns they can cast it AND have double counter backup! Bant's fine and all, it just feels clunky to me. I like how streamlined straight u/w is.I like that all my cards interact with the opponent or draw me cards save for my elixir. I run elspeth, but mostly as a way to end games in the mirror, as well as having utility in brickwalling some straggling groundpounders or as a kill spell for stormbreath.
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Mar 24, 2014 23:59
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Mezzanon posted:Holy gently caress my foil Thalia is worth fifty loving dollars?!?!?!? Because when you're able to spend hundreds of dollars on a single land, a foil copy of a widely-printed card is relatively cheap to acquire. You actually see this with most legacy staples - the "foil multiplier" on something like Deathrite Shaman is much larger than the one on, say, Stormbreath Dragon.
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Mar 25, 2014 00:01
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Jabor posted:Because when you're able to spend hundreds of dollars on a single land, a foil copy of a widely-printed card is relatively cheap to acquire. You actually see this with most legacy staples - the "foil multiplier" on something like Deathrite Shaman is much larger than the one on, say, Stormbreath Dragon. Makes sense, and I have also been doing this with abrupt decays (trading standard staples into foil abrupt decays) I just wasn't expecting Thalia. To be such a hot button card
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Mar 25, 2014 00:04
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Mezzanon posted:Holy gently caress my foil Thalia is worth fifty loving dollars?!?!?!? About as surprised as I was when I learned my foil Rhys the Redeemed is worth about the same. Thanks EDH.
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Mar 25, 2014 00:04
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As I've mentioned before, imagine how I feel to own multiple foil Wastelands that Wizards sent me for free in the days when cardboard bitcoins seemed more or less limited to the Power Nine and Mana Drain. 
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Mar 25, 2014 00:05
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Madmarker posted:Bant's fine and all, it just feels clunky to me. I like how streamlined straight u/w is.I like that all my cards interact with the opponent or draw me cards save for my elixir. I run elspeth, but mostly as a way to end games in the mirror, as well as having utility in brickwalling some straggling groundpounders or as a kill spell for stormbreath. I dunno, I feel like not having any way to win the game is ridiculous. Woo you can sit there and draw cards for 20 turns? Unless you're a complete rear end in a top hat, "win on time" shouldn't be plan A....
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Mar 25, 2014 00:06
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That's all well and good but I'd play and enjoy playing a deck where the only win-con is elixer of immortality. Maybe Psychic Spiral on backup. I am a complete rear end in a top hat so I guess you're right on that though.
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Mar 25, 2014 00:09
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I have a strong ideological opposition to ever doing things so the Elixir build appeals to me on a primal level.
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Mar 25, 2014 00:11
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I want to build a deck that doesn't even win by decking your opponent because it somehow causes them to keep shuffling their graveyard into their library. You just draw every single game.
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Mar 25, 2014 00:14
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forbidden lesbian posted:That's all well and good but I'd play and enjoy playing a deck where the only win-con is elixer of immortality. Maybe Psychic Spiral on backup. As long as you can admit you're a terrible human being for doing it, that's fair enough.
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Mar 25, 2014 00:15
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What a Judas posted:This is the fault of the u/w players. Good players can finish games, no problem. It really is. We have one guy at our store who could probably go to goddamn time playing Naya Blitz, and he always plays UW control. I had to play him in a GPT final with no time limit and the judge haaaated us.
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Mar 25, 2014 00:15
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So I have a foil Russian Olivia Voldaren. I'm on the fence about getting it signed by Eric Deschamps, as I'm sending him a pile of promo plains and other things to get signed, but this is obviously a more expensive and way rarer card. Can anyone recommend for or against getting it signed? I'm really on the fence and cannot make up my mind. I'm unlikely to trade it at any time, and I'm also unlikely to ever see another one.
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Mar 25, 2014 00:15
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vOv posted:I want to build a deck that doesn't even win by decking your opponent because it somehow causes them to keep shuffling their graveyard into their library. You just draw every single game. I believe Primal Command and Loaming Shaman can help you with that.
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Mar 25, 2014 00:17
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BaronVonVaderham posted:I dunno, I feel like not having any way to win the game is ridiculous. Woo you can sit there and draw cards for 20 turns? Unless you're a complete rear end in a top hat, "win on time" shouldn't be plan A.... I've never won on time. I play fast, if the opponent absolutely refuses to concede, I'll win off a Jace ultimate or Elspeth tokens. However, if you play it fast enough and get to the end game, where you have obviously established dominance, most players who aren't brand new, will scoop.
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Mar 25, 2014 00:18
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Blue Sun's Zenith wasn't played because control decks weren't played when it was in Standard. Sphinx's Rev wouldn't have seen any play either. And no I am not interested in pedantic arguing over whether or not Cawblade was control, regardless of what you classify it as it wasn't ever going to run USZ and wouldn't run Rev. Blue Sun's was usually more of a kill condition anyhow.
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Mar 25, 2014 00:20
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OgreNoah posted:So I have a foil Russian Olivia Voldaren. I'm on the fence about getting it signed by Eric Deschamps, as I'm sending him a pile of promo plains and other things to get signed, but this is obviously a more expensive and way rarer card. Can anyone recommend for or against getting it signed? I'm really on the fence and cannot make up my mind. I'm unlikely to trade it at any time, and I'm also unlikely to ever see another one. Why not get it signed? If you're not gonna trade it, collector's value doesn't matter. If you're not gonna see another one, why not make yours the coolest version it can be?
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Mar 25, 2014 00:20
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rabidsquid posted:Blue Sun's Zenith wasn't played because control decks weren't played when it was in Standard. Sphinx's Rev wouldn't have seen any play either. And no I am not interested in pedantic arguing over whether or not Cawblade was control, regardless of what you classify it as it wasn't ever going to run USZ and wouldn't run Rev. Yeah, first there was caw-blade, which had no need for the large refill effect a revelation or bsz provided. After that, delver just made straight control almost unplayable.
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Mar 25, 2014 00:21
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Wasn't U/B control a thing during Delver standard? I specifically remember PV playing it at a couple of Grand Prix. These memories are before AVR, though, so if you're talking about super Delver with Resto Angel, then yeah I can see it not being a thing anymore.
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Mar 25, 2014 00:24
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JerryLee posted:Wasn't U/B control a thing during Delver standard? I specifically remember PV playing it at a couple of Grand Prix. These memories are before AVR, though, so if you're talking about super Delver with Resto Angel, then yeah I can see it not being a thing anymore. Yeah, it definitely was for a bit before Delver caught on. Mana Leak, Doom Blade/Go For the Throat, Forbidden Alchemy, Think Twice, Snapcasters, and Grave Titan as a finisher. e: Won an SCG open around this time two years ago: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=2563&d=216639&f=ST Entropic fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Mar 25, 2014 |
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Mar 25, 2014 00:31
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Zoness posted:Because Spread'em became mildly known as a hate deck I looked this up and now I really wish I'd been playing back then. What a hilarious, incredible deck (and super suited to playing against Jund).
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Mar 25, 2014 00:34
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Entropic posted:Yeah, it definitely was for a bit before Delver caught on. I guess it depends on what one defines as "before Delver caught on" because I definitely remember substantially Delver decks being all over the place by the first months of the year, even if the deck hadn't yet acquired its post-AVR refined state.
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Mar 25, 2014 00:37
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OgreNoah posted:So I have a foil Russian Olivia Voldaren. I'm on the fence about getting it signed by Eric Deschamps, as I'm sending him a pile of promo plains and other things to get signed, but this is obviously a more expensive and way rarer card. Can anyone recommend for or against getting it signed? I'm really on the fence and cannot make up my mind. I'm unlikely to trade it at any time, and I'm also unlikely to ever see another one. If you never hope to sell it, by all means. But I've gotten tired of signed cards, personally. That said, sell it to me.
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Mar 25, 2014 00:38
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JerryLee posted:Wasn't U/B control a thing during Delver standard? I specifically remember PV playing it at a couple of Grand Prix. These memories are before AVR, though, so if you're talking about super Delver with Resto Angel, then yeah I can see it not being a thing anymore. I remember that U/B was the control deck before Caw first came together. It was kills spells, counters, 1-2 grave titans, 3-4 sea gate oracles, and Jaces. And looking through the tcgplayer deck listings for Grave Titan, it saw play in Solar Flare decks, and a bunch of Esper/Grixis control decks. It has this deck as well, http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1033212 but I cant really remember a u/b deck tearing it up when delver was first starting up. e - I guess it was a thing after all. Tcgplayer isn't going back far enough, that why I couldn't find it. Bugsy fucked around with this message at 00:47 on Mar 25, 2014 |
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Mar 25, 2014 00:41
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JerryLee posted:I guess it depends on what one defines as "before Delver caught on" because I definitely remember substantially Delver decks being all over the place by the first months of the year, even if the deck hadn't yet acquired its post-AVR refined state. It was after Dark Ascension that Delver really took off as a deck, evolving out of that post-M12-Standard Illusion Tribal Aggro-Tempo deck that used Lord of the Unreal, Phantasmal Image, Phantasmal Bear, and all the Mana Leak / Vapor Snag / Ponder tempo stuff that made it into the final Delver deck. UB Control was definitely a thing between Innistrad and Dark Ascension.
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Mar 25, 2014 00:43
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Entropic posted:It was after Dark Ascension that Delver really took off as a deck, evolving out of that post-M12-Standard Illusion Tribal Aggro-Tempo deck that used Lord of the Unreal, Phantasmal Image, Phantasmal Bear, and all the Mana Leak / Vapor Snag / Ponder tempo stuff that made it into the final Delver deck. UB Control was definitely a thing between Innistrad and Dark Ascension. Oh it definitely was a thing, I tried to run it for a while, but once I started losing to Delver over and over again, I had to put my Zenith's away and sleeve up some delver's, geists and resto's
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Mar 25, 2014 00:48
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All this talk about oppressive control decks has me feeling nostalgic for the rear end in a top hat monoblue control deck the guys at my local shop helped me build in middle school. It was something like ~25 lands(including Faerie Conclave and Stalking Stones) 20something counters(Counterspell, Force Spike, Rewind, Dismiss, Forbid and Mana Leak) Some number of Capsizes and Whispers of the Muse The deck was supposed to have 4 Morphlings in it too, but each one cost a week of allowance so I had to wait until my birthday to get them.
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Mar 25, 2014 00:50
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Entropic posted:I want to hear the goddamn fall set announcement already, I'm bored of Theros and want something new to speculate wildly about. I'm excited for the new set just because unlike Dragon's Maze the gods seem to be a bit better overall than a lot of the guild champions ended up. Maybe WotC can sort of break the 'third set is weakest' streak.
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Mar 25, 2014 01:23
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I'm just hoping if there's a GB God in Journey that it'll fit with Dredge.
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Mar 25, 2014 02:07
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I just 0-4'd in a Standard tournament at my LCS. I may never have an original thought about decks ever again. Played a Bant... thing. Attempted to spew out using Prophet to vomit out Epharas, Thunes, Polus, basically big rear end things that do poo poo, with Jace and Kiora holding down the defensive fort with my Caryatids and Coursers. Round 1 vs U/W Control: 0-2 Round 2 vs Mono Black: 0-2 Round 3 vs BIOVISIONARY. 0-2 Round 4 vs RG Monsters: 0-2 I don't think I've ever wanted to shelf a deck so fast.
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Mar 25, 2014 02:19
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Pack Rat was undeniably the coolest card to come out of the shitpile that was RtR block (honorable mention to Rakdos' Return, if only for the windmill slam). If you don't like Pack Rat, you aren't fit to play Magic: The Wizard Pokering in the Year of Our Lord Two Thousand and Fourteen.
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Mar 25, 2014 02:23
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To the person that wanted to watch Pod, the GP Richmond winner is streaming pod right now Monday 9:33pm EST, he's been playing Kiki Pod for about 3-4 years so he knows the deck well. http://www.twitch.tv/ryzaru/popout
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Mar 25, 2014 02:33
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