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Pick posted:I generally agree with him but I agree with him in the opposite bad way. I don't think we should eat toddlers because people get very attached to their children. I also think we shouldn't eat pets. I have a simple but useful view of things.
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Mar 25, 2014 17:31
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WoodrowSkillson posted:zoos are really good and do more work for conservation of wild species then anyone else. no one should feel bad about supporting them Zoos are worse than having a world where everyone can access happy animals in their native environments. That is not the alternative to zoos in our world, however.
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Mar 25, 2014 17:32
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InvisibleMonkey posted:my home-town has a cool zoo with biodomes where small animals can roam free in a climate-controlled version of their own habitat. They have a desert one, a jungle one, and one that is a bunch of gigantor aquaria. It is the only zoo that doesn't make me sad. most zoos should not make you sad the animals are well cared for and are living a life free of constant pain and terror in the wild obviously some are better then others and any cases where this is not true i would be against and it should be fixed.
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Mar 25, 2014 17:32
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Mar 25, 2014 17:33
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Pick posted:If we knew their language and syntax. I am actually the cutting edge in animal communication science. This is how I am able to shitpost on gbs 24/7 I am actually a six year old chimpanzee. wanna go out somtime?
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Mar 25, 2014 17:33
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amarantinesky posted:I don't think we should eat toddlers because people get very attached to their children. Singer addresses these things. What if it's an orphan toddler with no attachments to anyone? Humans still will value it above, for example, a socially-integrated elephant (where elephants pass the mirror test, mourn and even cover their dead and dead of other species, and recognize friends after decades apart).
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Mar 25, 2014 17:33
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Pick posted:I generally agree with him but I agree with him in the opposite bad way. lol, I sympathize with the individualistic ethics but I lean more toward being a land ethic person
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Mar 25, 2014 17:33
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Motherfucker posted:I am actually the cutting edge in animal communication science. i am terrified of chimpanzees actually lol
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Mar 25, 2014 17:33
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please dont post me larping
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Mar 25, 2014 17:34
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That is grey and in nature, but it is not an owl. You're close though!  Pick posted:Singer addresses these things. Am I a bad person if that scenario would require a lot of clarification and probably still be very hard to choose?
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Mar 25, 2014 17:36
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gyaaaaaaaaaInvisibleMonkey posted:my home-town has a cool zoo with biodomes where small animals can roam free in a climate-controlled version of their own habitat. They have a desert one, a jungle one, and one that is a bunch of gigantor aquaria. It is the only zoo that doesn't make me sad. another zoo I went to had a huge free-flying bird house, and a separate darkened one for bats, it was pretty great Schmetterling posted:Could a dolphin use speech-to-text?
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Mar 25, 2014 17:36
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Motherfucker posted:I am actually the cutting edge in animal communication science. lol Pick posted:Singer addresses these things. ugh this is like my ethics class (nah I'm kidding but we did talk about Singer). I think it's basically just that we know toddlers are part of our tribe or whatever and will become adult humans with little effort. It's the same reason people care about fetuses except a couple of cells is pretty different than a 4 year old IMO.
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Mar 25, 2014 17:36
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Its wrong to eat animals, but I don't care and neither should you.
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Mar 25, 2014 17:36
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Pick posted:i am terrified of chimpanzees actually lol you racist
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Mar 25, 2014 17:37
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WoodrowSkillson posted:most zoos should not make you sad the animals are well cared for and are living a life free of constant pain and terror in the wild I'm friends with many zookeepers and have been behind the scenes of many zoos and breeding centers. The thing about zoos is you have to look at them from the point of view of the animal, not you if you-a-human were in their terrarium. The elephants at the National Zoo, prior to their habitat being completely redone, were languishing. That was not enough room or stimulation for an elephant, and it was unjust. However, you can put an alligator snapping turtle in a big tank with some rocks and it will sit in the corner and snap at things that come near it and it is fine. It does not need soothing jazz or a smartphone or Arby's. In the wild it sits in the mud, almost blind, and waits for poo poo to swim near it. It will move if an insufficient amount of poo poo swims by that spot. If it has food it will be fine. If it sees another turtle it will try to gently caress it. If it doesn't it will not. No major existential crises.
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Mar 25, 2014 17:37
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Schmetterling posted:That is grey and in nature, but it is not an owl. You're close though! i go against the grain
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Mar 25, 2014 17:37
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Pick posted:i am terrified of chimpanzees actually lol loving love spiders, would not like to be in the same room as a chimpanzee reason being, a spider cannot tear my face off
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Mar 25, 2014 17:37
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Schmetterling posted:Am I a bad person if that scenario would require a lot of clarification and probably still be very hard to choose? Nah, people believe different things have different values
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Mar 25, 2014 17:38
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i want to brutally murder all animals with pikes, harpoons, and swords.
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Mar 25, 2014 17:38
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amarantinesky posted:ugh this is like my ethics class (nah I'm kidding but we did talk about Singer). I think it's basically just that we know toddlers are part of our tribe or whatever and will become adult humans with little effort. It's the same reason people care about fetuses except a couple of cells is pretty different than a 4 year old IMO. Well, if we value potential humans that why do we allow fertility treatments for couples? They by necessity dump thousands of fertile eggs. And his point is kind of that, that we value tribal membership. But that itself is a morally troublesome position that has long been used to justify racism, sexism, and other mistreatment of "otherized" groups.
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Mar 25, 2014 17:39
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Pig Benis Disciple posted:i want to brutally murder all animals with pikes, harpoons, and swords. Are you Japanese?
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Mar 25, 2014 17:39
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Pig Benis Disciple posted:i want to brutally murder all animals with pikes, harpoons, and swords. you leave my owls alone you fucker i've got a loving +15 iatio come at me
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Mar 25, 2014 17:40
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vaguely posted:chimpanzees are really goddamn scary The Duke Primate Center had quite a few people who had worked with chimpanzees in the past. Some had nice stories about chimpanzees they hadn't seen in years recognizing them to get hugs. Others had stories about chimpanzees biting off fingers and raping anything they could find. 
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Mar 25, 2014 17:40
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vaguely posted:chimpanzees are really goddamn scary and even if a spider could it would at least probably eat it or make some use out of it. a chimpanzee would just toss it over its shoulder or like drape it over a rock for humans to see and be scared of
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Mar 25, 2014 17:40
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yeah, the main issue with zoos is enclosing species that generally have upwards of 100k ha home ranges to little 50x50 squares. Pig Benis Disciple posted:i want to brutally murder all animals with pikes, harpoons, and swords. please don't
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Mar 25, 2014 17:41
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Best Tasting! posted:and even if a spider could it would at least probably eat it or make some use out of it. a chimpanzee would just toss it over its shoulder or like drape it over a rock for humans to see and be scared of Chimpanzees will gladly eat the flesh of other primates, and many are active monkey hunters.
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Mar 25, 2014 17:41
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Pick posted:Well, if we value potential humans that why do we allow fertility treatments for couples? They by necessity dump thousands of fertile eggs. humans are pretty terrible and hopefully global warming wipes us all out
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Mar 25, 2014 17:41
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Best Tasting! posted:and even if a spider could it would at least probably eat it or make some use out of it. a chimpanzee would just toss it over its shoulder or like drape it over a rock for humans to see and be scared of gently caress you man, that'd be a waste of face-meat. Mostly I just leave the fingers, too bony.
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Mar 25, 2014 17:42
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WoodrowSkillson posted:humans are pretty terrible and hopefully global warming wipes us all out that would be cool except then I wouldn't get to enjoy nature
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Mar 25, 2014 17:42
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Wildlife Analysis posted:yeah, the main issue with zoos is enclosing species that generally have upwards of 100k ha home ranges to little 50x50 squares. Zoos really need to focus more on amphibians and invertebrates. I think the reason they don't tend to do so is that many of these animals are aquatic and people associate them more with aquariums, and also can't identify with them as well. But certainly zoos could stand to have more weird bugs.
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Mar 25, 2014 17:42
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Wildlife Analysis posted:yeah, the main issue with zoos is enclosing species that generally have upwards of 100k ha home ranges to little 50x50 squares. range size is a pretty bad way of judging it though since large ranges can just be the result of the animal needing to go long ways to find its food or migrate
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Mar 25, 2014 17:42
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Nature will survive humanity so take that comforting knowledge to your cold pointless grave.
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Mar 25, 2014 17:43
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Motherfucker posted:Nature will survive humanity so take that comforting knowledge to your cold pointless grave.
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Mar 25, 2014 17:43
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Wildlife Analysis posted:yeah, the main issue with zoos is enclosing species that generally have upwards of 100k ha home ranges to little 50x50 squares. the glory of the crowd demands it, their roses land at my feet while I smile at the pretty girl in the front row. Blood is on my cape and my suit is torn, but the day is not over
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Mar 25, 2014 17:44
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Motherfucker posted:Nature will survive humanity so take that comforting knowledge to your cold pointless grave. we can't really harm nature all we can do is maybe create a mass extinction event that leads to a shakeup of the dominant species
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Mar 25, 2014 17:44
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Hey Australia's going to poo poo, our attorney General said people have a right to be bigots, and a bunch of important laws were canceled today. But! They've brought back knighthoods and damehoods (?). Who knows, if me or av become a notable Australian we could be Dames all official like. I saw a tweet I quite liked: Australia's new sport - jousting! (Knights only; Dames bring a plate)
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Mar 25, 2014 17:45
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WoodrowSkillson posted:range size is a pretty bad way of judging it though since large ranges can just be the result of the animal needing to go long ways to find its food or migrate I think often that cognitive tests combined with consultation with experts is probably the way to go. Anyone who works with elephants knows that they need a lot of space and stimulation (and actually I am a little dubious they can be kept fairly in captivity); anyone working with sloths will tell you they are indeed sad sacks of crap. Some animals also just work better with people and are less stressed by people. Wolves actually tend to do well in captivity. Jaguars are always mean as poo poo and will try to kill everything.
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Mar 25, 2014 17:46
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WoodrowSkillson posted:range size is a pretty bad way of judging it though since large ranges can just be the result of the animal needing to go long ways to find its food or migrate even if we were supposing this, it seems unlikely that an animal used to roaming potentially hundreds or thousands of miles would be content to be stuck in a small enclosure. Pick posted:Zoos really need to focus more on amphibians and invertebrates. this is what we should be doing
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Mar 25, 2014 17:48
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Pick posted:I think often that cognitive tests combined with consultation with experts is probably the way to go. Anyone who works with elephants knows that they need a lot of space and stimulation (and actually I am a little dubious they can be kept fairly in captivity); anyone working with sloths will tell you they are indeed sad sacks of crap. yeah intelligence is a good indicator because i do not think a wildebeest will bemoan the lack of a crossing rivers full of crocodiles along its migration, nor do i think the prairie dogs are all that upset about not getting shot or eaten by eagles
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Mar 25, 2014 17:48
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Pick posted:Chimpanzees will gladly eat the flesh of other primates, and many are active monkey hunters. Pick posted:Zoos really need to focus more on amphibians and invertebrates.  conservation isn't only about saving the tigers yeah animals with large ranges have trouble in zoos certainly, although the best zoos are doing their best to mitigate it by building larger mixed-species enclosures and investing heavily in enrichment activities (Colchester Zoo is a pretty good example, I think they do a fantastic job) once you've got a bloodline in captivity, you've gotta just do your best to give those animals as nice a life as you can, and if they help people to care about their wild counterparts so much the better
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Mar 25, 2014 17:49
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