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Someone was telling me there's a new turbo motor possibly going into the next Miata but Google isn't showing me anything.
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Mar 25, 2014 04:41
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Rhyno posted:Someone was telling me there's a new turbo motor possibly going into the next Miata but Google isn't showing me anything. Any odds of this being some low-displacement Fiat MultiAir thing from the Alfa collaboration?
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Mar 25, 2014 04:43
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Kraftwerk posted:I don't get it, why is Mazda struggling when their cars are winning all these awards? Is it the poor timing because of the new Corolla coming just after the Mazda 3? As a newly minted 2014 Mazda 3 owner this kind of worries me. Higher pricing. The CX-5 is great (for a crossover), but not $3-4k better than a Honda, and that's what I was getting on an apples-to-apples comparison. The yen - and shipping everything from Hiroshima - is loving killing them, whereas my CR-V was probably built in Ohio. In a straight up, same-cost fight, the Mazda3 stomps all over the Civic, but price-wise the Civic wins. Mazda's base prices look good but you really need to get out of the SV and into the Sport to be on par with a Honda LX package in terms of features. Also, the Mazda2 isn't doing itself any favors against the rest of the market. The Fiesta - on a closely related platform - has more power but better fuel mileage across the board. Having ~100hp is still a significant turnoff to a lot of people. IOwnCalculus fucked around with this message at 04:47 on Mar 25, 2014 |
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Mar 25, 2014 04:44
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Snowdens Secret posted:Any odds of this being some low-displacement Fiat MultiAir thing from the Alfa collaboration? Oooh, that would make sense! Isn't Mazda getting access to the 4C platform as well?
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Mar 25, 2014 04:45
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Rhyno posted:Oooh, that would make sense! Don't think so, Alfa and Mazda are (or were) supposed to be teaming up to do the next MX-5/Alfa Spider. However since Fiat's take over of Chrysler I don't know if that is still a thing.
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Mar 25, 2014 05:57
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You Am I posted:Don't think so, Alfa and Mazda are (or were) supposed to be teaming up to do the next MX-5/Alfa Spider. However since Fiat's take over of Chrysler I don't know if that is still a thing. Well poop. I'd read that supposedly there was going to be a cheaper Dodge version of the 4C but I'd love to see what Mazda could do with it.
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Mar 25, 2014 06:10
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DEUCE SLUICE posted:"If only car manufacturers would stop focusing on horsepower and just make us a simple, light RWD sports coupe." Give me six months and I might be able to make twenty-thousand or so arguments for the manufacturer to keep such a car here. Though an S2000 would be rather tempting, if I could find one for sale. I'm in one of those markets where people tend to hold onto those kinds of cars for a while, and those that don't are utter rusty crap that hasn't run in 6 years, but they still want the full Kelly Blue Book dealer pricing for the same car with half the millage, but twice the options.
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Mar 25, 2014 12:20
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Aeka 2.0 posted:I'd like to know how many people actually didn't care about power, because I test drove one and was completely turned off by the lack of torque and it's why I decided to jump from any sporty vehicle in that price range and was looking at an Optima instead. I wasn't impressed on my test drives either. I even had a deposit down on one. I changed some priorities and bought a Golf TDI instead... Figured I'd buy a responsible car and then get the fun car. Here's hoping the 4C is somewhat close to $55k  Also, if the FRZ had been $20k I'd have been in one. I didn't feel like it was really worth $25k. I get that it's a low volume car on its own platform and all, it just didn't feel like it was worth that much.
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Mar 25, 2014 14:00
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Thanks IOC for changing the toyobaru thread title, it's so accurate. Anyways, ND is going to be powered by an N/A Skyactiv motor with some extra tuning. There was apparently some focus groups done and the number being thrown around was 155hp. The original rumor was a 1.something turbo, but it looks like a 2.0 motor making somewhere between 155-170hp in a chassis with a curb weight of 2300lbs (an A package 1994 Miata has a curb of 2293lbs).
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Mar 25, 2014 15:03
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Cream_Filling posted:Also the endless wads of internet benchracers whining about power, many of who haven't even driven the car and probably would never buy it anyway (at least not new). I've even seen people saying that the car could have made more power without affecting price or handling but this wasn't done because ???? The jump from Miata to the Mazdaspeed Miata was a $827 36hp jump. Total price - $26,020 Link From Solstice to Solstice GXP? $2710 for 83hp jump. Total price - $25,995 Link So the FRS/BRZ has to charge $10,000 more to accomplish this because ???? Keep in mind these are convertibles which require extra chassis bracing and the fiddly convertible top to fit. Plus they had nicer double A arm suspension instead of the cheaper parts bin suspension of the BRZ/FRS. Coredump fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Mar 25, 2014 |
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Mar 25, 2014 15:36
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The toyobaru is struts in the front, double wishbone in the rear (just like the WRX) because of the packaging of the boxer. As to why BMW is struts on all 4 is basically "German Engineering" because an inline 6 doesn't really doesn't take up too much horizontal space.
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Mar 25, 2014 16:09
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Cat Terrist posted:Never understood why Mazda didnt drop a rotary into the MX5 and call it a day. ANY rotary powered MX5 is at the least a riot to drive and very quick. The lackish of torque doesnt matter due to car of light weight, you get the 40Kw the chassis screams for. Whats not to love? Reliability, fuel economy, oil consumption, cost, etc. Plus the history of the cars the MX5 was inspired by. HotCanadianChick posted:If Mazda decides they need a new halo car, they'd be much better served by taking the NC MX-5 platform, making it a hardtop, stretching the wheelbase and widening it a bit, and dropping in a tweaked MZR turbo making around 275-285 HP (a bit more than what the MS6 was making), putting in a sweet upscale interior similar to the new Mazda3's insides, and call it the MX-7, priced at $33k base, with a fully optioned car going up to ~$38k or so. Keep it light and it should easily be one of the highest performance cars in that price segment. Yup. I think making a new platform PLUS keeping the rotary flame burning would be too expensive to get anything like this on the road at a sane price point. They already have an engine that would be great. They have a platform that would be great. Stick them together.
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Mar 25, 2014 19:54
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Cost on top of cost but a hybrid rotary power train would probably do a lot to compensate for each other's weaknesses. Still I don't really know the advantage to a rotary versus a small piston engine. Why is it important for Mazda to keep rotaries around?
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Mar 25, 2014 20:34
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HotCanadianChick posted:If Mazda decides they need a new halo car, they'd be much better served by taking the NC MX-5 platform, making it a hardtop, stretching the wheelbase and widening it a bit, and dropping in a tweaked MZR turbo making around 275-285 HP (a bit more than what the MS6 was making), putting in a sweet upscale interior similar to the new Mazda3's insides, and call it the MX-7, priced at $33k base, with a fully optioned car going up to ~$38k or so. Keep it light and it should easily be one of the highest performance cars in that price segment. I agree with all of this except for the price ceiling. Seriously that would be such a sweet car. Basically a RX8 without the suicide doors and obsession with triangles. However $38k is too much to ask for something like this. I think we will need to adjust our pricing expectations for cars like this one the 900 pound gorilla that is the turbo 4 Mustang with IRS gets settled into the room. That's gonna be the benchmark that a lot of the car buying public will use just like the V6 Mustang of the current model.
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Mar 25, 2014 20:37
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Xguard86 posted:Cost on top of cost but a hybrid rotary power train would probably do a lot to compensate for each other's weaknesses. Still I don't really know the advantage to a rotary versus a small piston engine. Why is it important for Mazda to keep rotaries around? A rotary is pretty efficient (fuel and emissions wise) if you keep it at a single speed, which you could do in a hybrid setup. A rotary is lighter and smaller than a piston engine, for the same power output. A rotary also burns nearly anything - there is basically no work to convert it to hydrogen. Mazda was working on a hybrid rotary and supposedly paraded around a working prototype late last year, but I'm not finding any decent sources right now.
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Mar 25, 2014 20:46
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Brigdh posted:A rotary is pretty efficient (fuel and emissions wise) if you keep it at a single speed, which you could do in a hybrid setup. A rotary is lighter and smaller than a piston engine, for the same power output. A rotary also burns nearly anything - there is basically no work to convert it to hydrogen. hmm well then ya it sounds like hybrid + rotary is a winning combo. Too bad I'm sure its space shuttle expensive to implement.
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Mar 25, 2014 22:19
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Coredump posted:I agree with all of this except for the price ceiling. Seriously that would be such a sweet car. Basically a RX8 without the suicide doors and obsession with triangles. However $38k is too much to ask for something like this. I think we will need to adjust our pricing expectations for cars like this one the 900 pound gorilla that is the turbo 4 Mustang with IRS gets settled into the room. That's gonna be the benchmark that a lot of the car buying public will use just like the V6 Mustang of the current model. $38k would be fine for a top trim with leather, uprated stereo w/subs, keyless start/entry, dual zone climate, heated seats, xenons, nav, a good central control panel for nav/audio, and quality (german lux car standards) materials and finish... all of which they've already done at a lower price point on the 2014 3. A mustang will still have a Ford interior. E: also in that price range it's main competition is going to be the new BMW 2 series, not stripper mustangs. Vs. the 228i, it'd have more power with slightly lower weight, and a nicer, better equipped interior. Vs the M235i, it'd have slightly less power, but somewhat offset by less weight and better handling (the handling and brakes should be more aggressive than a Miata, as befits a halo car model - Mazda purposefully gimps the suspension on Miatas to keep them mellow and easy to drive, a spinoff chassis can be made much more hardcore), and still meet or exceed the equipment and interior of the 235 for less money (a comparably equipped M235i will be around $45-47k). Militant Lesbian fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Mar 26, 2014 |
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Mar 25, 2014 22:55
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Xguard86 posted:hmm well then ya it sounds like hybrid + rotary is a winning combo. Too bad I'm sure its space shuttle expensive to implement. I want to see a series-parallel hybrid system in an RX-7 like the McLaren P1. Make it like Aeka's FD where it makes big power with a huge turbo but complement it with a decently sized hybrid battery. Maybe 8-10 miles on the battery alone but its real purpose is to make up for the turbo lag. There are enough people that remember the Supra/RX-7/300ZX/3000GT days of the 90s. If Toyota brings back the Supra in the $60k range, I promise you there would be a market for a similarly-priced RX-7. I grew up on Japanese cars and I only switched my focus to European cars because there isn't anything terribly interesting in that price range from Japan. Is a hybrid RX-7 a pipe dream? Almost certainly, but it's fun to think about.
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Mar 26, 2014 00:41
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Zoom Zoom, motherfuckers
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Phone posted:The toyobaru is struts in the front, double wishbone in the rear (just like the WRX) because of the packaging of the boxer. The 5 and 7 series went to double wishbone for the current generation, Cadillac went from double wishbone to struts for the current ATS/CTS.
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Mar 26, 2014 01:14
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Sounds like another reason to get the CTS-V wagon. 
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Mar 26, 2014 01:22
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Pr0kjayhawk posted:There are enough people that remember the Supra/RX-7/300ZX/3000GT days of the 90s. If Toyota brings back the Supra in the $60k range, I promise you there would be a market for a similarly-priced RX-7. I grew up on Japanese cars and I only switched my focus to European cars because there isn't anything terribly interesting in that price range from Japan. I love 90s Japanese supercars as much as the next guy, but in the US, $60k can buy you a lot of car. The muscle car segment has the GT500 (or the new hellcat Challenger) and the sports car segment has the Cayman, but sitting smack-dab between those two segments is the new Corvette. If that wasn't enough, things get really messy when you consider the M4, because it is the exact Supra formula, but it is here now (well, very soon) and carries a prestigious badge. A tarted up hybrid rotary Miata probably doesn't stand a chance competing at this price point. The competition is too good and it's coming from established players in the market.
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Mar 26, 2014 02:33
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What's really making a new turbo rotary a non-starter is that Mazda is alone in trying to fund and develop any advances in rotary tech, design, and power increases, whereas piston engines can take advantage of the hundreds of millions of man-hours of R&D and design from a century+ of refinement. Modern piston engines are incredibly efficient, powerful, and reliable compared to what can be squeezed from a rotary. And saying they're smaller and lighter than an equivalent-power piston engine is both incorrect and ingenuous: they used to be such, but over the past 20 years things like variable timing, all-aluminum blocks, direct injection, improved combustion chamber and valvetrain designs, and the increasing ubiquity of turbos on engines of all sizes and configurations, means a modern rotary the size of a renesis or 13b really needs to be making over 300 HP to really be a viable alternative to something like the boosted fours in things like an STi or Evo, especially when those same boosted fours have cleaner emissions and better mileage and flatter, torquier powerbands.
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Mar 26, 2014 03:30
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HotCanadianChick posted:What's really making a new turbo rotary a non-starter is that Mazda is alone in trying to fund and develop any advances in rotary tech, design, and power increases, whereas piston engines can take advantage of the hundreds of millions of man-hours of R&D and design from a century+ of refinement. Modern piston engines are incredibly efficient, powerful, and reliable compared to what can be squeezed from a rotary. And saying they're smaller and lighter than an equivalent-power piston engine is both incorrect and ingenuous: they used to be such, but over the past 20 years things like variable timing, all-aluminum blocks, direct injection, improved combustion chamber and valvetrain designs, and the increasing ubiquity of turbos on engines of all sizes and configurations, means a modern rotary the size of a renesis or 13b really needs to be making over 300 HP to really be a viable alternative to something like the boosted fours in things like an STi or Evo, especially when those same boosted fours have cleaner emissions and better mileage and flatter, torquier powerbands. That and also with safety standards plus all-aluminum engines becoming mroe common, the weight of the engine itself is becoming less important as a contributor to the total weight of the car, which cuts into the weight advantages of a rotary as well. Also the difficulty of sealing the thing plus emissions plus r&d pretty much negates any cost advantage in manufacturing from having fewer moving parts.
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Mar 26, 2014 03:39
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HotCanadianChick posted:What's really making a new turbo rotary a non-starter is that Mazda is alone in trying to fund and develop any advances in rotary tech, design, and power increases, whereas piston engines can take advantage of the hundreds of millions of man-hours of R&D and design from a century+ of refinement. Modern piston engines are incredibly efficient, powerful, and reliable compared to what can be squeezed from a rotary. And saying they're smaller and lighter than an equivalent-power piston engine is both incorrect and ingenuous: they used to be such, but over the past 20 years things like variable timing, all-aluminum blocks, direct injection, improved combustion chamber and valvetrain designs, and the increasing ubiquity of turbos on engines of all sizes and configurations, means a modern rotary the size of a renesis or 13b really needs to be making over 300 HP to really be a viable alternative to something like the boosted fours in things like an STi or Evo, especially when those same boosted fours have cleaner emissions and better mileage and flatter, torquier powerbands. Renesis needs to make 300hp to compete against the STI? Lets see: Wikipedia states the latest STI made 304 HP with 2.5L which works out to 121.6 HP/L Wikipedia states the RX-8 made 238 HP (revised figure) with 1.3L which works out to 183 HP/L Power per displacement figures still seem to be in favor of the Rotary Looking at stock STI torque curve vs a stock RX-8 one, the RX-8 one looks a lot flatter to me. Some of the boxers have gotten lighter using an aluminium block vs the Renesis cast block, but no figures have been released from the 16X which has been stated to use aluminium as well. Aluminium Rotary blocks already exist in the aftermarket world, so its not impossible to engineer. As far as R&D, have you factored in the aerospace industry? Yes, there are challenges, but seeing as how Mazda solved some of the original Rotary issues that were puzzling others for a decade, I think they have a chance.
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Mar 26, 2014 03:52
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Brigdh posted:Renesis needs to make 300hp to compete against the STI? Lets see: Is this a joke or are you unironically quoting power per displacement figures like they have any real-world relevance?
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Mar 26, 2014 03:54
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Power per liter only matters for size/weight of the engine, which like Cream_Filling said right over you is increasingly irrelevant for street apps as it's overwhelmed by safety structure. I -guess- you could say power per liter makes turbocharging more efficient, but turbo efficiency isn't usually brought up as a real concern, and it's moot if the rotary isn't blown anyway. I'm not sure what the aerospace industry has to do with it unless there are planes (current or potential) using rotaries, or you're suggesting apex seals benefit from jet engine tech, and that's stretching. E: dammit C_F
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Mar 26, 2014 03:59
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http://www.fuelly.com/car/gmc/sierra%202500%20hd http://www.fuelly.com/car/mazda/rx-8/2011
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Mar 26, 2014 04:08
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There's homemade/kit light aircraft that use subaru boxers, so yeah a rotary could see a market there, but unfortunately light aircraft aren't exactly a hoppin' industry with a ton of money in it. I guess drones also count though so maybe there? But even then they usually just seem to stick with conventional designs to save money. edit: btw I wasn't trying to be rude above, I just honestly couldn't tell. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 04:10 on Mar 26, 2014 |
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Mar 26, 2014 04:08
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In any case any plan involving selling a hybrid to stand above the competition in an enthusiast-dominated segment is facing an uphill battle to say the least.
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Mar 26, 2014 04:08
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Snowdens Secret posted:Power per liter only matters for size/weight of the engine, which like Cream_Filling said right over you is increasingly irrelevant for street apps as it's overwhelmed by safety structure. I -guess- you could say power per liter makes turbocharging more efficient, but turbo efficiency isn't usually brought up as a real concern, and it's moot if the rotary isn't blown anyway. Power per liter was the topic being debated. Whether or not it is relevant for a street application is a different debatable topic. However, I'm not entirely convinced that the weight from safety structure requirements negates engine optimizations. I'd be fired if I told my boss that we should just give up optimizing in one area because another one is overshadowing the gains. Hell, I've seen the lack of a spare tire attributed to weight savings. The rotary is being explored in many aerospace applications, which means more folks than just Mazda are doing R&D in the engine. Its not necessarily equal to that of past or current piston research, but its certainly more than just Mazda. As an engineer, I like the rotary for many reasons, but I'm not blind to the fact that isn't universally viable, and may never reappear. Besides, its not like you are legally prohibited from enjoying your favorite piston based car because the rotary exists. Did Felix Wankel personally offend you somehow? 
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Mar 26, 2014 04:15
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Well, he was a Nazi sympathizer.
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Mar 26, 2014 04:17
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Brigdh posted:Power per liter was the topic being debated. Whether or not it is relevant for a street application is a different debatable topic. However, I'm not entirely convinced that the weight from safety structure requirements negates engine optimizations. I'd be fired if I told my boss that we should just give up optimizing in one area because another one is overshadowing the gains. Hell, I've seen the lack of a spare tire attributed to weight savings. Power per weight matters. Power per dollar matters. Power per liter is irrelevant to pretty much everyone except in places taxed on displacement since engine displacement has only the loosest relation to numbers people actually care about like weight, volume, etc. I find it strange that an engineer doesn't get this.
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Mar 26, 2014 04:23
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Cream_Filling posted:Power per weight matters. Power per dollar matters. Power per liter is irrelevant to pretty much everyone except in places taxed on displacement since engine displacement has only the loosest relation to numbers people actually care about like weight, volume, etc. You assume too much. Phone posted:Well, he was a Nazi sympathizer. Excellent answer  So, I don't think I see any news on this page, so I'll try to contribute: http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1091053_could-future-mazda-engines-emit-less-co2-than-electric-cars Mazda is claiming its future SkyActiv engines will produce less CO2 emissions than an electric car. I'd be interested to see Elon Musk's reaction to this
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Mar 26, 2014 04:23
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Brigdh posted:Power per liter was the topic being debated. No it really wasn't, though I did enjoy the suggestion that Rotaries are fuel efficient. 
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Mar 26, 2014 04:24
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Brigdh posted:Besides, its not like you are legally prohibited from enjoying your favorite piston based car because the rotary exists. Did Felix Wankel personally offend you somehow? Actually until all the reliability/longevity issues with the Renesis cropped up, a 2005 Shinka RX-8 was going to be the car I was going to get. I'd also love me an '86 GSL-SE too. The fact remains that piston engines are quickly surpassing the power-to-weight* ratio of rotaries, and doing so with better economy and efficiency. I'd love it if we someday saw a production hydrogen rotary though. HP per liter is completely irrelevant when discussing rotaries, especially since there's no real consensus as to how to measure rotary displacement. What matters is power to weight, and when the only currently available production rotary (renesis) is nearly the weight of an all-aluminum Chevy LS3 that makes double the power and nearly triple the torque, and gets better mileage to boot? Wankels don't look too promising right now.
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Mar 26, 2014 04:33
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*1984-85 GSL-SE
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Mar 26, 2014 04:35
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Cream_Filling posted:There's homemade/kit light aircraft that use subaru boxers, so yeah a rotary could see a market there, but unfortunately light aircraft aren't exactly a hoppin' industry with a ton of money in it. Aircraft engines also have the pesky need of reliability. making GBS threads out apex seals every couple hundred hours won't quite cut it.
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Mar 26, 2014 05:11
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fknlo posted:Aircraft engines also have the pesky need of reliability. making GBS threads out apex seals every couple hundred hours won't quite cut it. Rotary engines work quite well for a long time in that kind of environment.
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Mar 26, 2014 05:15
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the spyder posted:*1984-85 GSL-SE I knew I was gonna get the year wrong from memory, doh!
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Mar 26, 2014 05:33
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The fact remains, if rotories were to disappear tomorrow, the only group that would likely know or care are rotary enthusiasts. Mazda realizes this.
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Mar 26, 2014 14:27
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