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Basebf555 posted:He wants to permanently disfigure Verger, which I assume is why he didn't kill him. Hannibal gets off on the fact that Verger is bedridden for the rest of his life. If I remember correctly he thought he was dead when he left the house. Also he sent him to kill the whole family not just Will. If he cared about psychological he would just have them killed, not Will.
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Mar 26, 2014 19:51
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bobkatt013 posted:If I remember correctly he thought he was dead when he left the house. Also he sent him to kill the whole family not just Will. If he cared about psychological he would just have them killed, not Will. Good point. Anyway I thought it would have been an interesting discussion but apparently I had a dumbshit opinion. Oh well.
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Mar 26, 2014 19:54
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zoux posted:Then why shoot it? This is an extremely tight show that uses strong visuals and symbols to aid in storytelling, they wouldn't just throw that in there for nothing. I may be misinterpreting it myself, but it definitely means something. I think it definitely means something, but I don't think it means his decision would have been any different because of the result. I think no matter what he was going to resuscitate her because she was so comfortable with the idea of dying, especially on her own terms and by her own hand.
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Mar 26, 2014 19:55
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Parachute posted:I think it definitely means something, but I don't think it means his decision would have been any different because of the result. I think no matter what he was going to resuscitate her because she was so comfortable with the idea of dying, especially on her own terms and by her own hand. I dunno. He was faced with a decision, flips a coin, which is cultural shorthand for making a difficult decision, as well as being literally that, then he does something immediately after flipping the coin. Seems like that coin may have had something to do with making a decision.
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Mar 26, 2014 19:58
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zoux posted:I dunno. He was faced with a decision, flips a coin, which is cultural shorthand for making a difficult decision, as well as being literally that, then he does something immediately after flipping the coin. Seems like that coin may have had something to do with making a decision. Maybe he was deciding between saving her life and making her disappear. Both cause Jack to continue to suffer.
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Mar 26, 2014 20:00
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Basebf555 posted:Maybe he was deciding between saving her life and making her disappear. Both cause Jack to continue to suffer. Yeah I think that's exactly what he was deciding.
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Mar 26, 2014 20:01
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That makes a ton of sense, but I think making her disappear would force all fingers to point at him, or at least arouse some suspicion in his direction. Not to mention that by resuscitating her, he is kind of extending an olive branch to Jack and simultaneously denying Bella her chosen death. I couldn't imagine how much worse option A would be. I'm sure Hannibal would make him some fantastic meals to help console him while they search for his wife. Who knows, he could have sent Jack various appendages as presents, too.
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Mar 26, 2014 20:08
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Hannibal does not cause physical and mental pain just for the sake of causing it. He does it because he's curious about the workings of people and what exactly he can do to them, or make them do, or how hard he can push them. That's not for EVERY case, like his killings in Hannibal Rising, but for the current Hannibal of the tv series, that's how it goes. To think otherwise is naive and a gross simplification of his character and saying "lawl wut he made a dude cut off his own face" is just asinine and takes everything about Hannibal's character at face value (pun slightly intended  ).
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Mar 26, 2014 20:11
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Well, the official Hannibal twitter account just posted: quote:Hannibal @NBCHannibal 17m So, uh....there's one motivation.
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Mar 26, 2014 20:49
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Prism Mirror Lens posted:You fools, it's the suits that hold the serial killing power, obviously. Why do you think he keeps them on when he goes out murdering? If you put them on the dogs you will get lots of adorable little dog hannibals There can be only one.
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Mar 26, 2014 21:06
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Rabbit Hill posted:Well, the official Hannibal twitter account just posted: I think this seals it that Hannibal saved her to see her suffer.
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Mar 26, 2014 21:12
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Kaiser Mazoku posted:I think this seals it that Hannibal saved her to see her suffer. That's a hell of a leap to make just from Hannibal saying that he reaps benefits from both saving and ending lives.
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Mar 26, 2014 21:15
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The word "arousing", specifically. It implies that he is getting personal enjoyment out of it.
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Mar 26, 2014 21:46
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Hannibal himself didn't say it, Chilton did when he was at the witness stand.
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Mar 26, 2014 21:57
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Yestermoment posted:Not to sound hostile, but did y'all not hear the quivering breathing in the basement going on that WASN'T Katz? Okay, this is the fourth time I've seen this sequence now (I rewatched a couple times before it was posted) And I don't so much hear extra breathing as I hear what sounds like a fluttering sound like from maybe insect wings? Maybe from a Moth  Basebf555 posted:Maybe he was deciding between saving her life and making her disappear. Both cause Jack to continue to suffer. I assumed he was deciding between "Safe her life and cause her more misery" or "Let her die and report it to the police and let the fallout of her death commence around me"
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Mar 26, 2014 22:49
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zoux posted:I dunno. He was faced with a decision, flips a coin, which is cultural shorthand for making a difficult decision, It's also what you do with utterly trivial decisions. "What shall we get for lunch, Chinese of Mexican? I can't decide, let's flip a coin." Bella had poured her heart out to Hannibal and chose him to be the one there with her when she died. Think for a moment just how much thought and heatbreak went into her decision to take her own life. And she chose to do it in front of him. She made him the most important person in her world. Hannibal's coin flip served to show how utterly unimportant she was to him. A gesture of total contempt.
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Mar 26, 2014 23:56
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I'm going to laugh my rear end off if we find out from a Con or behind-the-scenes that Mads totally ad-libed that coin toss and they decided to keep it.
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Mar 27, 2014 00:05
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BTW, am I the only one who would love to see a bonus on the DVD that's "cooking with Hannibal" where Mads imitates Alton Brown but with Human Meat?
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Mar 27, 2014 00:07
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Were there any cool bonuses on the S1 DVDs?
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Mar 27, 2014 00:07
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Gorilla Salad posted:It's also what you do with utterly trivial decisions. "What shall we get for lunch, Chinese of Mexican? I can't decide, let's flip a coin." I think that's half right - she's unimportant to him, but I think he respects her (as much as he can) for trying to maintain her dignity and her control over her fate.
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Mar 27, 2014 00:10
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We know that he can care about people in his own hosed up way. He likes Will and Jack, and the sense I got was that he at least admired Bella somewhat.
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Mar 27, 2014 00:12
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Hannibal doesn't care about people, he just takes an interest in them. If they are sufficiently interesting or useful he keeps them around, even if they do pose a danger to him. Bella probably stopped being interesting the moment she was about to die so he instead decided how she could be of further use to him. He particularly likes to play with Will because Will can actually see Hannibal for who he really is. If Hannibal has one human trait it's his desire to be seen by others. That's why he 'signs' his victims, actively gets involved in the investigation into his own killings and even leaves clues leading back to him.
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Mar 27, 2014 00:37
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Basebf555 posted:Good point. Anyway I thought it would have been an interesting discussion but apparently I had a dumbshit opinion. Oh well. While he's definitely a sadist, I don't think it's too far out there to say he enjoys making people suffer psychologically, gets a great deal of satisfaction out of using psychological means to achieve his serial killer goals and thinks it more elegant or whatever to do so. It is his chosen profession after all.
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Mar 27, 2014 00:46
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Rabbit Hill posted:I think that's half right - she's unimportant to him, but I think he respects her (as much as he can) for trying to maintain her dignity and her control over her fate. I think he respects her about as much as Miriam Lass. Miriam Lass actually caught up to him with very little to go on, so I think he was impressed by her and her intelligence and drive. And I think he was impressed by Bella's fearlessness in running headlong into death to avoid a life of pain. Not that he SYMPATHIZED with them at all, he's not capable of that. I think he just thought "oh, how very interesting, this person is more intelligent/courageous/whatever than most of the others, how can I manipulate the situation and their actions or benefit from them in some way? Let's see what happens if I bring Bella back to life and cause her even more pain and suffering and throw everything she just did right back in her face."
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Mar 27, 2014 02:20
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Safari Disco Lion posted:I think he respects her about as much as Miriam Lass. Miriam Lass actually caught up to him with very little to go on, so I think he was impressed by her and her intelligence and drive. And I think he was impressed by Bella's fearlessness in running headlong into death to avoid a life of pain. Not that he SYMPATHIZED with them at all, he's not capable of that. I think he just thought "oh, how very interesting, this person is more intelligent/courageous/whatever than most of the others, how can I manipulate the situation and their actions or benefit from them in some way? Let's see what happens if I bring Bella back to life and cause her even more pain and suffering and throw everything she just did right back in her face." I think it is more likely that his thought process was centered on Jack, and ensuring that Jack's sympathies/respect/trust for Hannibal grow. That makes things worse in my opinion, because it means he is using Bella as nothing more than a prop, reducing the vital importance of her life or death to a matter of how much it benefits him as a tool to use on Jack. It's something she feared re: Jack herself, that she would come to be a burden and a "thing" that he had to deal with instead of the woman he loved. She tried to take control and Hannibal took that away from her, and he didn't even do it out of any personal interest in HER, but in her husband.
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Mar 27, 2014 02:29
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Jerusalem posted:I think it is more likely that his thought process was centered on Jack, and ensuring that Jack's sympathies/respect/trust for Hannibal grow. That makes things worse in my opinion, because it means he is using Bella as nothing more than a prop, reducing the vital importance of her life or death to a matter of how much it benefits him as a tool to use on Jack. It's something she feared re: Jack herself, that she would come to be a burden and a "thing" that he had to deal with instead of the woman he loved. She tried to take control and Hannibal took that away from her, and he didn't even do it out of any personal interest in HER, but in her husband. Yeah, the "how can I manipulate the situation with this" bit was meant to include Hannibal's dealings with Jack. It helps that both of these women have been very closely related to him, which I think is both partially a convenient coincidence that these two strong and powerful women Hannibal comes into these situations with can also help further Hannibal's agenda with Jack and also not entirely a coincidence that Hannibal realized early on that there's potential there and groomed the situations accordingly. Really I think Hannibal is interested in Jack almost as much as Will, moreso after Will entered the picture and Hannibal is learning all these new things about how Jack functions and interacts with other people.
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Mar 27, 2014 02:36
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I think that the effect it will have on Jack is more interesting / important to Hannibal, but I do think he has an ancillary interest in watching Bella's reaction as well. It seems like he at least admires (or appreciates) her courage, though she doesn't mean anything to him as a person, so doing this is sort of an experiment to see where her willpower reaches its breaking point. After his curiosity is sated I have no doubt that he wouldn't give a single thought to what happens to her.
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Mar 27, 2014 02:45
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Someone previously mentioned, I'm sorry I forgot who, that the coin was similar to the belief of offering coins to Charon for safe passage across the river to the afterlife. A lot of religions held similar beliefs, basically offering up some sort of gift as a sign that they were ready to pass on. Hannibal basically gave Bella permission to pass on, but then either lied or changed his mind. His handing the coin back to her was a more tangible rejection of her offer. He was not going to allow her to die. If the show remains consistent, then we'll probably find out the specifics of the why later. For now it really seems like a "because I can" situation, and because Hannibal is metaphorically the Devil and won't let Bella go just yet. Because he can. In my opinion, Jack appears more as an analogue to God or some sort of blessed messenger or angel. He's kind of the opposite of Hannibal in a lot of ways, which lends itself well to the foretold showdown between them. Their dinners together are kind of hilarious in a really morbid, awful sort of way. There were a lot of allusions to this in the first season though I'd have to rewatch it to find out what in particular. This has been a long time coming, and, if Hannibal wins, then he has become one step closer to 'killing God'.
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Mar 27, 2014 02:58
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I want to feel the coin toss was very out of place, almost out of character for me regarding Hannibal. If there isn't an explanation or pursuance of his reasons for flipping that loving coin, I'm going to ignore the drat coin flip. Pissing me off for no reason.
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Mar 27, 2014 03:01
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SoroScrew
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Paradox Personified posted:I want to feel the coin toss was very out of place, almost out of character for me regarding Hannibal. If there isn't an explanation or pursuance of his reasons for flipping that loving coin, I'm going to ignore the drat coin flip. He had plenty of reasons to go for either decisions. Keep Bella alive totally loving her over but making him a hero in Jack's eyes, or let her die and crush Jack emotionally. It doesn't seem hugely out of character for him to see equal benefit for both scenarios and to also add a bit of artistic and metaphorical flair by flipping the coin she just gave him. Or maybe he flipped it because he wanted to and felt it suited him in that situation and was going to save her regardless. Quit getting mad about tv shows.
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Mar 27, 2014 03:09
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It might seem out of place if you have built up a conception of Hannibal as someone who has meticulously planned things. This is not the way Hannibal has behaved so far in the show. Hannibal treats the whole world as his playground to experiment in as he sees fit. He calls Garrett Jacob Hobbs just to see what will happen. When he does it, he has no idea what will happen and how it will affect Will. When he realizes that Will has encephalitis he leaps at the opportunity to experiment with it. Hannibal is a rich kid in a candy shop, only his candy is people. Hannibal is always just doing whatever he thinks is amusing and he can get away with. Also, in his Luciferian context, he is doing the opposite of "God does not play dice". The devil, as a fictional character archetype, is notorious for wagering and gambling with the lives/souls/salvation/damnation of people.
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Mar 27, 2014 04:22
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Paradox Personified posted:I want to feel the coin toss was very out of place, almost out of character for me regarding Hannibal. If there isn't an explanation or pursuance of his reasons for flipping that loving coin, I'm going to ignore the drat coin flip. I don't know, I enjoy the idea that Hannibal is just playing around a bit and is at the mercy of his own whims as well. Makes him feel slightly more flawed than him having everything figured out and planned in advance. EDIT: Also, as for whether or not Hannibal likes Jack and Will, I think he's convinced he does. Except, you know, it means something else for him than it does for normal people.
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Mar 27, 2014 05:04
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Yeah, I always got the impression that for all his meticulousness, Hannibal invites chaos simply because it's interesting. I think he enjoys making risky decisions because it allows him the opportunity to test himself against whatever follows. He revels in being able to out-think and out-maneuver others, which wouldn't be as compelling if he only played safe.
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Mar 27, 2014 05:11
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NeilPerry posted:I don't know, I enjoy the idea that Hannibal is just playing around a bit and is at the mercy of his own whims as well. Makes him feel slightly more flawed than him having everything figured out and planned in advance. quote:
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Mar 27, 2014 06:40
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R-Type posted:I'm going to laugh my rear end off if we find out from a Con or behind-the-scenes that Mads totally ad-libed that coin toss and they decided to keep it. Unlikely, considering the effort for the cgi coin toss shot from above his head...
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Mar 27, 2014 11:31
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...and it was a major turning point in the plot...
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Mar 27, 2014 13:06
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It seems like Hannibal has an honest curiosity about the concept of friendship. Every time he brings it up, like in his sessions with Du Maurier, it always seems like he wants her to confirm that yes, Hannibal, you do in fact have a real friend. She never allows him that delusion though, or any delusions at all, which is why she is such a great character.
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Mar 27, 2014 14:31
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I was convinced when Bella showed up uninvited at Hannibal's wanting to commit suicide that he was going to lock her up and send love letters from the Ripper to Jack. Maybe feed Jack bits of Bella and send him some recorded phone calls of her in the painful final stages of her life, unable to have Jack there by her side, something like that. I doubt the symbolism and "poetry" of her giving him the coin and then him flipping it to decide her fate is lost on Hannibal. He perverts the idea of giving the ferry man a coin (surrendering to death) by instead turning it into a coin flip of whether to let her live or do something else I'm sure equally horrible. Edit: the coin flip doesn't actually need to be a gamble, either. It could be purely symbolic. Bella is putting her trust in Hannibal and telling him she's decided to die, he is taking that choice away and the coin flip represents that HE is the one deciding her fate. I'm ready to die, here's my fancy coin for the ferry man. I OD'd on my pain pills. *passes out* Heh, you thought YOU were going to make that decision? *flips coin* 
Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 16:08 on Mar 27, 2014 |
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Mar 27, 2014 16:00
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savinhill posted:While he's definitely a sadist, I don't think it's too far out there to say he enjoys making people suffer psychologically, gets a great deal of satisfaction out of using psychological means to achieve his serial killer goals and thinks it more elegant or whatever to do so. It is his chosen profession after all. It's a little deeper than that, if you take the books into account, but even without them. The definitive Hannibal kill, that shows his motivations/reactions/pleasure is (HANNIBAL THE BOOK AND MOVIE SPOILERS AHEAD) detective Pazzi. In that, he kills him (a) because he wouldn't leave well enough alone, was being an idiot, and put him in danger, and (b) in a way that would be hugely theatrical and artistic. He kills for a purpose. For "science" or to make "art." He's not a "sadist," as he's not doing it for the pleasure of pain - he's killing to make art, make an artistic point, or to experiment with the human mind. That's how the books were, that's how the movies were. Even stupid Hannibal Rising gets the point that he stages his initial killings in ways to evoke the initial crime in which he felt they were guilty. If you're someone he respects or just incidental, he will kill you painlessly, but if he's actually trying to make some grand point, you might be hosed.
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Mar 27, 2014 20:25
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Darko posted:It's a little deeper than that, if you take the books into account, but even without them. Was that the guy who [spoilers]was hanging by his intestines in Italy? The one moment of the movie Hannibal that I remember.[/spoiler] Also, I never thought Hannibal would abduct Bella. He's too smart for that. If she disappeared from his office, and Jack started getting messages from her, the finger would point straight at Hannibal. Bella very likely left a suicide note that said where she was going. And if she didn't, you know. Cameras. Her car (or her driver). Hannibal isn't that sloppy. This isn't Dexter, you guys. (Thank gently caress)
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Mar 27, 2014 21:00
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