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Well look at it from Sulfur's perspective. He is pretty much immortal and has a lot of life ahead of him. Here's this guy who knows what you can do and he seems pretty confident that he can kill you. I wouldn't go around risking my life in confrontations with near equals unless it was absolutely necessary.
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Mar 25, 2014 19:50
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I think Bayaz is a great illustration of just how much power charisma really has over us. He nuked a city and literally laughed about the UNLIIIIMITED POWEEEEER it gave him, and people still defend him, because treating people like ants because you find them insignificant is apparently a 'neutral' standpoint. It's kind of like how beloved Cosca was, until Red Country pointed out what a medieval mercenary captain actually did for a living (which he'd probably been doing unmentioned the whole time). If a character is likeable, people will find ways to like them no matter what they actually do.
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Mar 26, 2014 19:50
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Strategic Tea posted:If a character is likeable, people will find ways to like them no matter what they actually do. See also: Logen Ninefingers.
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Mar 26, 2014 21:27
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Strategic Tea posted:I think Bayaz is a great illustration of just how much power charisma really has over us.
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Mar 26, 2014 22:20
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docbeard posted:See also: Logen Ninefingers. What did Logen do that was bad?
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Mar 26, 2014 22:36
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Strategic Tea posted:If a character is likeable, people will find ways to like them no matter what they actually do. FMguru posted:The momentum of the trope is so strong that even when Bayaz is revealed to be something very, very different, people still try to justify his actions as if he was still the standard issue good guy advisor wizard. Or, morality in the series isn't presented in a black and white manner leaving typically "evil" characters open to more complex interpretations.
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Mar 26, 2014 22:55
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Or evil is evil and it should be called as such instead of throwing up cowardly philosophy to shield such behavior from reproach.
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Mar 26, 2014 23:23
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Oh Snapple! posted:Or evil is evil and it should be called as such instead of throwing up cowardly philosophy to shield such behavior from reproach.
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Mar 26, 2014 23:25
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Above Our Own posted:Reproach, of a fictional character. And I'm cowardly for having a different interpretation of a fantasy book. Goddamn I think you're taking this a little far Hey man, his opinion on morality being absolute is not an opinion. It is a loving fact. Xenix fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Mar 27, 2014 |
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Mar 27, 2014 02:02
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Above Our Own posted:Reproach, of a fictional character. And I'm cowardly for having a different interpretation of a fantasy book. Goddamn I think you're taking this a little far Oh, well, it's fictional. Why bother talking about it in the first place then  Personally I'm just sick to loving death of your almost obsessive-compulsive need to make sure no one dares to call a mass murdering piece of poo poo sociopath exactly what he is because of some lovely "everything is subjective, maaaaaaan" philosophy. Xenix posted:Hey man, his opinion on morality being absolute is not an opinion. It is a loving fact. When it comes to a character that commits genocide then laughs maniacally about it? Yeah, I'm pretty comfortable in saying that it is.
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Mar 27, 2014 02:45
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Get a grip dude. "Evil is a matter of where you stand" is a quote of the author about his books so you seriously need to not get angry that the morality of Bayaz, Logen, Glokta etc is a frequent discussion topic. I don't know why you're getting personal either I mean you are the one screaming NO NO, EVIL! THEY'RE ALL EVIL! like anything more nuanced is a personal offense to your views.
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Mar 27, 2014 03:14
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But I'm not saying they're all evil. I'm saying the mass murdering sociopath is. It also really doesn't loving matter what Abercrombie thinks or says. It's the actions of his characters that matter, not whatever bullshit he himself wants to attach to them from outside the story. I've already said what I think of that lovely statement, regardless. EDIT: For the record, I don't mean this to come across personally. I just don't understand why you seem so compelled to defend Bayaz on this. I see what you're talking about on a lot of other characters, but Bayaz is the single one where I just don't. He's a piece of poo poo, through and through. Oh Snapple! fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Mar 27, 2014 |
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Mar 27, 2014 03:17
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Since when is Bayaz genocidal? I don't recall him trying to wipe out an entire race of people at any point.
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Mar 27, 2014 03:38
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keiran_helcyan posted:Since when is Bayaz genocidal? I don't recall him trying to wipe out an entire race of people at any point. Got a bit ahead of myself on that one. It's the first word that comes to mind when I think of mass murder, to the point where I forget its actual definition 
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Mar 27, 2014 03:42
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People defend Bayaz in part because his motivations aren't that distinguishable from the archetype he's initially cast in. He's trying to bring order to the world and create a unified force that will be able to push back against the forces of total destruction and disorder. I can see that as a (obviously very, very simplified) description of both Bayaz and Gandalf and true as far as it goes in describing them. Of course Bayaz has the distinction that he gives no fucks about human life and clearly making things better for people isn't his goal. He utterly violates the Categorical Imperative (in it's most fundamental expression, "Never treat others as a means but as an end in themselves"). However he goes the other extreme, his anger against people who oppose him isn't personal any more than someone kicking a chair that's in their way is. It's an expression of his frustration with inconvenience and defeat rather than anger at a person for opposing his will. He comes close to amorality in the same way a kid throwing a tantrum with his toy soldiers for falling over when he poses them is. He's a tremendous rear end in a top hat and I'd say he's evil. But then my problem with Bayaz is I think there's the potential for a more nuanced and interesting (or at least tragic) character in there but Abercrombie clearly preferred just utterly inverting the archetype.
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Mar 27, 2014 15:39
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keiran_helcyan posted:Since when is Bayaz genocidal? I don't recall him trying to wipe out an entire race of people at any point. He attempted to kill all of the half demon children of Juvens, and may have succeeded. MrNemo posted:People defend Bayaz in part because his motivations aren't that distinguishable from the archetype he's initially cast in. He's trying to bring order to the world and create a unified force that will be able to push back against the forces of total destruction and disorder. He's not though. The forces of total destruction and disorder offered to completely spare the Union if they agreed to give up Byaz. They also only resorted to cannibalism because Byaz had the seed. His motivation is power, and saving his own rear end from the other people he screwed over to achieve power. He doesn't care about elevating humanity and he doesn't care about protecting the world from demons or he wouldn't have said good riddance to Ferro. adebisi lives posted:What did Logen do that was bad? I would say forcing the Northmen to come south and defend the Union under threat of death.
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Mar 28, 2014 04:02
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Blind Melon posted:He attempted to kill all of the half demon children of Juvens, and may have succeeded. A race of four? Seriously? I also don't remember him trying to do anything to the spirit-talking kid.
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Mar 28, 2014 04:58
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 They were Euz's kids, Juvens was one of them, unless you are referring to something else that I don't remembervvv Yeah was talking to the guy above you Jeffrey of YOSPOS fucked around with this message at 05:35 on Mar 28, 2014 |
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Mar 28, 2014 05:00
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I know who they were, that's just really stretching the moral content of the term 'genocide'. And he wasn't trying to kill them all from my recollection, just Kanedias and Juvens. Glustrod maybe since he was probably involved in the war, but the final kid talked to spirits and didn't get mentioned much and there's no reason to think Bayaz had any reason to kill him.
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Mar 28, 2014 05:26
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Great fan of his books. Adult fantasy i like to call it. Not quite in rank with Game of Thrones (i reckon it is better then) or Book of the Fallen. It is in league of its own. Dark, gritty, raw if you like. There is no light side here. People try to be nice, by the end of the book they are committing mass murder adding to their names (looking at you Bloody Nine). It is a collection of wonderful books and i hope we get to read many many more.
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Mar 28, 2014 05:43
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Neurosis posted:I know who they were, that's just really stretching the moral content of the term 'genocide'. And he wasn't trying to kill them all from my recollection, just Kanedias and Juvens. Glustrod maybe since he was probably involved in the war, but the final kid talked to spirits and didn't get mentioned much and there's no reason to think Bayaz had any reason to kill him. He wasn't trying to kill them all, just two thirds of the ones still living after the war in which he fought to kill the last one. Not to mention spirit talker has been mysteriously absent... In all seriousness though it would not be a surprise to learn that Byaz killed spirit talker, not by a long shot. Byaz didn't exactly need a reason to kill Kinnedeas and Juvens beyond needing to be the best. Whatever happened to Euz anyways? Him and spirit talker are notably absent with no explanation.
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Mar 29, 2014 19:59
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Blind Melon posted:He wasn't trying to kill them all, just two thirds of the ones still living after the war in which he fought to kill the last one. Not to mention spirit talker has been mysteriously absent... Maybe The Bloody Nine is the spirit of the spirit talker who is possessing Logen.
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Mar 29, 2014 20:10
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HidaO-Win posted:Maybe The Bloody Nine is the spirit of the spirit talker who is possessing Logen. I have an even simpler theory. Maybe Logen is a lot older than he appears (and realizes).
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Mar 29, 2014 21:53
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docbeard posted:I have an even simpler theory. Maybe Logen is a lot older than he appears (and realizes). He appears to age normally between TFL and Red Country, though. Well, he retains seemingly nearly all his strength and stamina, but visually, at least. Logen being descended from spirit talker guy wouldn't be the biggest shock, though. Logen's father, despite being referred to constantly, is mysteriously anonymous and absent...
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Mar 30, 2014 07:43
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docbeard posted:I have an even simpler theory. Maybe Logen is a lot older than he appears (and realizes). CRAZY SPECULATION FUN TIME! So this whole time I was thinking in terms of Logen being the real man and the Bloody-Nine being the spirit/split-personality that sometimes takes control of him. But what if the Bloody Nine was the original personality of the man we know as Logen, and gradually took on the personality of Logen as he struggles to become a better man, repressing his old self? Doesnt really jive with the story from Logen's childhood, but who knows how much his memory has distorted throughout his life! ^^^^^^ What if he aged because he was distancing himself from violence and repressing the Bloody-Nine? Maybe being possessed/taken over acts as some kind of physical revitalization. Edit: I know this is all nonsense, but its fun to throw around wild speculations! Mr.48 fucked around with this message at 08:08 on Mar 30, 2014 |
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Mar 30, 2014 08:06
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Neurosis posted:He appears to age normally between TFL and Red Country, though. Well, he retains seemingly nearly all his strength and stamina, but visually, at least. Logen being descended from spirit talker guy wouldn't be the biggest shock, though. Logen's father, despite being referred to constantly, is mysteriously anonymous and absent... Shanka killed him, and the rest of Logen's family.
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Mar 30, 2014 15:20
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adebisi lives posted:What did Logen do that was bad?
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Mar 31, 2014 17:10
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coyo7e posted:Aside from being a frighteningly brutal warlord who killed friend and foe without regard or warning or remorse, for decades? He did kill that one dude's kid in a fight when he went B9 - he even got called out on it shortly thereafter, iirc. Not to mention the thing where he murdered Tul Duru.
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Mar 31, 2014 17:31
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Also the whole bit where he played the devil on his boss's shoulders, whispering in his ear that he needed to continue making war until he conquered the whole north, all to sate his own bloodlust.
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Mar 31, 2014 17:33
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Jeffrey posted:Also the whole bit where he played the devil on his boss's shoulders, whispering in his ear that he needed to continue making war until he conquered the whole north, all to sate his own bloodlust. Was he whispering in Bethod's ear, or was he just running around starting a bunch of fights Bethod had to finish?
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Mar 31, 2014 19:06
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AStrangeDuelist posted:Was he whispering in Bethod's ear, or was he just running around starting a bunch of fights Bethod had to finish? IIRC it was a little of column A, little of column B, but I'd have to read that chapter again to remember properly.
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Mar 31, 2014 19:07
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It's also Bethod trying to paint himself as the innocent farmer who just accidentally conquered half the continent because Logen made him, so we can probably take what he said with a grain of salt. But yeah, I think we can pin at least some of that on Logen (and, as a bonus, it's something that can't just be blamed on the Bloody-Nine, if you're of the mindset that they're separate individuals that just uneasily share a body). I guess in general, I don't figure Logen would try so hard at being a good person now if he didn't think he had things to make up for.
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Mar 31, 2014 19:16
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Wasn't that like a revelatory moment for Logen(and the readers), where he basically agreed with how Bethod painted him and realized he was just as culpable as him for how everything played out in the past? That's how I remember the scene, but I read that a long time ago.
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Mar 31, 2014 19:51
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savinhill posted:Wasn't that like a revelatory moment for Logen(and the readers), where he basically agreed with how Bethod painted him and realized he was just as culpable as him for how everything played out in the past? That's how I remember the scene, but I read that a long time ago. I think Logen saw that there was truth in what Bethod was saying, but I personally don't buy Bethod portraying himself as the peace loving, reluctant king there. Calder's chapters don't give me that impression. Bethod doesn't seem to have been a despotic villain as Logen and Dogman's initial chapters paint him to be, but I think we can surmise that he was opportunistic and happy to set up a ruling dynasty.
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Mar 31, 2014 20:43
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Giodo! posted:I think Logen saw that there was truth in what Bethod was saying, but I personally don't buy Bethod portraying himself as the peace loving, reluctant king there. Calder's chapters don't give me that impression. Bethod doesn't seem to have been a despotic villain as Logen and Dogman's initial chapters paint him to be, but I think we can surmise that he was opportunistic and happy to set up a ruling dynasty. Yeah, this exactly. Bethod's as complicated as anyone else in this series, basically. Also, when Black Dow of all people tells you that you're a psychopathic rear end in a top hat who ruins everything he touches, you might have to consider that you might, in fact, be a psychopathic rear end in a top hat who ruins everything he touches.
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Mar 31, 2014 20:58
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docbeard posted:Yeah, this exactly. Bethod's as complicated as anyone else in this series, basically. Yeah it's funny how it's right under your nose how bad Logen is. They separate him from his group, and make it clear that Black Dow is pretty much a psychopath, while in parallel, you're introduced to our plucky barbarian hero who has a string of bad luck. Yet, at least on the first read-through, you never think to question why Black Dow is subservient to Logen in the first place.
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Mar 31, 2014 21:22
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docbeard posted:Yeah, this exactly. Bethod's as complicated as anyone else in this series, basically. Then again, Black Dows words sound a bit hollow given that he speaks them as he is betraying the man he owes his life to. He is probably putting a certain spin on things as he is trying to justify his own actions.
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Mar 31, 2014 21:36
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Giodo! posted:I think Logen saw that there was truth in what Bethod was saying, but I personally don't buy Bethod portraying himself as the peace loving, reluctant king there. Calder's chapters don't give me that impression. Bethod doesn't seem to have been a despotic villain as Logen and Dogman's initial chapters paint him to be, but I think we can surmise that he was opportunistic and happy to set up a ruling dynasty. Oh, I didn't remember that about Bethod. I just remember him talking about how Logen was bloodthirsty and would encourage him in his conquests, I didn't know he tried to play it off like he was a benevolent, peaceful ruler before Logen's influence.
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Mar 31, 2014 22:08
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Here's something far more interesting than this never-ending debate: the first seven chapters of Half a King.
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Apr 1, 2014 02:31
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Jeffrey posted:Yeah it's funny how it's right under your nose how bad Logen is. They separate him from his group, and make it clear that Black Dow is pretty much a psychopath, while in parallel, you're introduced to our plucky barbarian hero who has a string of bad luck. Yet, at least on the first read-through, you never think to question why Black Dow is subservient to Logen in the first place. Well Black Dow was also subservient to Threetrees and he wasn't a psychopath. But maybe we'll find out Threetrees eats babies in some future flashback story.
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Apr 1, 2014 10:32
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