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BMcDonough posted:You also don't technically need to use TAG to spot for indirect fire "Technically" nothing, you can spot for indirect LRMs without any special equipment. It also doesn't break LoS, but you can only have one unit firing for one unit spotting without penalty. I think. BMcDonough posted:(if they do, then they'd only need to get within los with their own void-sig-systems on, and you'd be pretty hosed). Good point. I don't usually do "assault the stationary target" missions, so I'm not always on the up&up about how to attack stationary things.
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Mar 27, 2014 02:45
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RIP you brave tents. 
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Mar 27, 2014 02:57
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Actually, I think you don't need LOS to target hexes, just range-to-target. As for the other bit, thanks for pointing that out. Fixed it.
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Mar 27, 2014 02:58
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I want to hear the technobabble justification for an ECM technology that can hide a 60 foot tall hunk of very hot steel running at 60 kph with an active fusion reactor inside. A 'Mech should be detectible on visual, thermals, magnetometers, gieger counters, heck they're so big and loud even a shot detector (passive sonar rig pretty much) should be able to locate them with good accuracy with just some directional microphones in a box and a microchip running halfway decent software. Just the thermal alone is silly; it's hard to hide something that is literally glowing for anything with the eyes to see it.
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Mar 27, 2014 03:23
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goatface posted:You need to set the map on fire. I don't know if the combination of "if you can't see them they won't be represented on the map" and "smoke everywhere, making it hard to see things" is the best idea.
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Mar 27, 2014 03:31
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The fluff implies seismic never picked it up... Maybe its active? MIJI tech that convinces sensors that they see nothing? No, I have no idea if that's even plausible
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Mar 27, 2014 03:39
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Arglebargle III posted:I want to hear the technobabble justification for an ECM technology that can hide a 60 foot tall hunk of very hot steel running at 60 kph with an active fusion reactor inside. Of course it's silly from a technical perspective, but it's more fun if you have invisible giant robots. Well, it's fun for the player with Void Sig, not so much for the other people. But the crazy WoB/iATM stuff aren't really meant for people to use in friendly games, it's made specifically for scenarios like this. If I remember correctly, stuff like Void Sig works by combining color-changing armor, radar absorbing materials, ECM stuff, and along with that restricting the venting of excess heat (which is why the system generates 10 heat while active). Sure, it doesn't do anything about the other ways the 'Mech would show up, but considering pilots apparently aim primarily by visual means, being effectively transparent would be pretty useful.
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Mar 27, 2014 03:43
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If you ever have a question about how Battletech works, just repeat to yourself, "It's just giant robots, I should really just relax."
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Mar 27, 2014 05:42
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How much does the refrigeration system weigh then? Because it's very hard to "restrict" heat.Dachshundofdoom posted:If you ever have a question about how Battletech works, just repeat to yourself, "It's just giant robots, I should really just relax." I just want to hear how silly it is. Also, stealth generators don't really fit the giant robot genre, especially the western giant robot genre where blatant magic is avoided. Like if it was space fighters, it would be easier to suspend disbelief but giant robots are... giant. They're huge and stompy and that's their ouvre: hugeness and stompiness. Not stealth. It's harder to plead genre convention in this case.
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Mar 27, 2014 05:56
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Void Sig is basically the Predator cloak plus a system of heat shunts that distorts your thermal signature from a robot-shaped target to a huge blob that is like five times larger than you actually are. It's not that it makes you invisible (except in double-blind rules or with hidden unit deployment) it's that it makes you a hard target.
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Mar 27, 2014 06:03
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Arglebargle III posted:How much does the refrigeration system weigh then? Because it's very hard to "restrict" heat. They're wearing giant bunny slippers.
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Mar 27, 2014 06:49
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Also, standard (non-battle armor) infantry reduce the Void Sig penalty by 1. Because they're looking at the things with their eyes, and not through an awful, horribly designed hud.
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Mar 27, 2014 07:41
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SynthOrange posted:They're wearing giant bunny slippers. But that's Clan Fluff Rabbit technology! 
Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 07:56 on Mar 27, 2014 |
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Mar 27, 2014 07:52
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Noise wouldn't be a problem. Battlefields are loud, and the pilots are in giant stompy robots of their own.
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Mar 27, 2014 08:48
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wiegieman posted:Noise wouldn't be a problem. Battlefields are loud, and the pilots are in giant stompy robots of their own. Yeah, the idea that you could somehow hear the sound of a giant stompy death robot over the racket being made by your own giant stompy death robot - not to mention the comms in your ears and the warning bleeps as you inevitably irritate four-hundred-year-old tech and the sound baffling of the cockpit - seems a little far-fetched to me. It's kind of like saying a NASCAR driver oughta be able to hear when someone is coming up behind him.
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Mar 27, 2014 09:12
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Paingod556 posted:The fluff implies seismic never picked it up... I once worked on a naval base and heard a story about having to put in a change request to turn on a radar which was already installed on a ship. Had been there for years. Paperwork was a huge headache because the captain was all "but I already have this radar!" and the techs were "well yes it's on your ship but it's not doing anything, you need to press the button that turns it on." Peacetime 
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Mar 27, 2014 10:18
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:Yeah, the idea that you could somehow hear the sound of a giant stompy death robot over the racket being made by your own giant stompy death robot - not to mention the comms in your ears and the warning bleeps as you inevitably irritate four-hundred-year-old tech and the sound baffling of the cockpit - seems a little far-fetched to me. It's kind of like saying a NASCAR driver oughta be able to hear when someone is coming up behind him. You can stop. Sound contacts are a real thing in combat. Infantry can hear tanks coming. Battlefields aren't constantly loud. It would be really hard to model in tabletop rules though.
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Mar 27, 2014 11:56
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:Yeah, the idea that you could somehow hear the sound of a giant stompy death robot over the racket being made by your own giant stompy death robot - not to mention the comms in your ears and the warning bleeps as you inevitably irritate four-hundred-year-old tech and the sound baffling of the cockpit - seems a little far-fetched to me. It's kind of like saying a NASCAR driver oughta be able to hear when someone is coming up behind him. The idea that a 20 year old computer with software written by a 16 year old could triangulate gunfire to within a few dozen meters across an area of several kilometers across with nothing but some half decent directional microphones scattered around a building through all the ambient noises of a city does sound pretty far fetched. Oh wait. They did that. About 15 years ago. The idea that a giant stompy robot of death couldn't use sound triangulation to locate other giant stompy robots is pretty silly. Of course screwing that up is fairly easy as well with active noise cancellation. I don't know if BattleTech has a sonar sensor for 'mechs, but it sure as hell has a seismic sensor which works the same way as a sonar system and can be messed with the same way.
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Mar 27, 2014 13:14
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Yes, but Battletech was written ~30 years ago, so the idea of stuff like that was just too sci-fi for FASA's game of giant robot slap fights.
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Mar 27, 2014 14:17
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The whole spotting for indirect LRM fire is pretty nuts too. Hexes are what, 30 meters across? How are you going to relay position to shoot at within a few seconds to the point where you can hit a specific mech in a 30 meter space with 80s Battletech computers?
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Mar 27, 2014 14:45
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Arglebargle III posted:You can stop. Sound contacts are a real thing in combat. Infantry can hear tanks coming. Battlefields aren't constantly loud. It would be really hard to model in tabletop rules though. PoptartsNinja posted:Also, standard (non-battle armor) infantry reduce the Void Sig penalty by 1. Because they're looking at the things with their eyes, and not through an awful, horribly designed hud. Guess what the Clans don't use? VVV Also, LRMs are guided munitions. The reason why they miss so often is just because their guidance systems often mistake the ground for a valid target. PoptartsNinja fucked around with this message at 15:20 on Mar 27, 2014 |
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Mar 27, 2014 15:16
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DatonKallandor posted:The whole spotting for indirect LRM fire is pretty nuts too. Hexes are what, 30 meters across? How are you going to relay position to shoot at within a few seconds to the point where you can hit a specific mech in a 30 meter space with 80s Battletech computers? The computer triangulates the position of the target. Tag lasers do it better. Or something.
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Mar 27, 2014 15:18
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Part of why mech mortars come back in style is because the guidance system in LRMs is so crap that unguided unguided munitions can sometimes do better.
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Mar 27, 2014 15:25
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:Yeah, the idea that you could somehow hear the sound of a giant stompy death robot over the racket being made by your own giant stompy death robot - not to mention the comms in your ears and the warning bleeps as you inevitably irritate four-hundred-year-old tech and the sound baffling of the cockpit - seems a little far-fetched to me. It's kind of like saying a NASCAR driver oughta be able to hear when someone is coming up behind him. Duh, the giant stompy robot is wearing noise-cancelling headphones. Beatdowns, by Dr. Banzai.
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Mar 27, 2014 16:21
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DatonKallandor posted:The whole spotting for indirect LRM fire is pretty nuts too. Hexes are what, 30 meters across? How are you going to relay position to shoot at within a few seconds to the point where you can hit a specific mech in a 30 meter space with 80s Battletech computers? Well, yeah, but then we're getting into the kinds of issues that are best not invoked in Battletech, like 'My long range missiles go a kilometer, then fall out of the sky?'
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Mar 27, 2014 16:37
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Cruise Missiles exist, as do long-range air-to-air stuff. They just don't get used because they're either more expensive than sending a wave of infantry, or active jamming prevents real long-range guidance systems from being effective. The only time a long-range air-to-air missile is used in a novel is against a civilian airliner. With the number of reloads LRMs come with, it's completely reasonable that they have approximately five seconds of solid fuel. A kilometer or so is about as far as you can recognize a target through visual means anyway. It's just best to assume that long-range electronic detection is very iffy at best. Or, y'know, that it's a game and you should all chill and have fun.
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Mar 27, 2014 17:02
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BT has a lot of scapegoats. Not only "a space wizard did it" explains a lot, but also "everything is lovely, and everyone is lovely at his job" goes a long way.
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Mar 27, 2014 18:03
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PoptartsNinja posted:Or, y'know, that it's a game and you should all chill and have fun. Totally agree, I just didn't say it as well.
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Mar 27, 2014 19:15
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Arglebargle III posted:You can stop. Sound contacts are a real thing in combat. Infantry can hear tanks coming. Battlefields aren't constantly loud. It would be really hard to model in tabletop rules though. You can stop, but you can't exactly roll down the window in your Atlas. It's hard to use noise to triangulate when you're inside a thing that is noisy, is my point. Even a stationary 'Mech, while powered up, makes noise. And infantry spotters aren't a thing because the only infantry the Clans use are Elementals, which have their own issues. Could a 'Mech be outfitted to do a better job of using sound to spot 'Mechs that are otherwise hidden? Sure they could! But there's never been a real need for it, in-universe, until now - because, so far as I'm aware, this is the first time we're seeing VoidSig gear deployed en masse. It certainly makes sense to me that the Clans - who are all about fighting your enemy in HONOUREABLE COMBAT, not hiding from them - just plain wouldn't think to use their sensor suites in such a fashion; they've never needed to before. ....mind you, that's just for sound. How the seismic sensors get stuffed, well, I got nothin'. 'Mech-sized bunny slippers is as good a reason as any.  It's a game, a space-wizard did it, let's get back to the explode-y bits, those are more fun than the arguing bits. 
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Mar 27, 2014 20:31
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Remember which faction has Angel ECM?
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Mar 27, 2014 20:43
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Voyager I posted:
Pretty sure that's a VSPL
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Mar 27, 2014 20:48
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PoptartsNinja posted:Remember which faction has Angel ECM? Draconis Combine. 
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Mar 27, 2014 21:21
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I've said it before, and I'll say it again; Battletech's military technology would be a much better fit for a steampunk game than it is for a far-future transgalactic science fiction setting. A total conversion has been something I've thought of, but never felt motivated to do, for a long time. Instead of tiny populations on thousands of worlds, you have reasonable populations on a half-dozen continents. Instead of ridiculously short ranges for weapons that are apparently less useful than standard WWII technology, you have steam-powered cannons, Victorian-era rocketry, and steampunk techno-wizard Tesla fantasy lightning generators. Instead of fusion power plants envisioned by people who didn't do more than an hour's reading about fusion, you have coal and steam powerplants that have good reasons to run hot, need extensive venting, and melt down when punctured. And you can reasonably keep the focus on the stompy robots without wondering what the hell happened to air superiority doctrine by converting air assets to dirigibles, biplanes, and maybe the occasional airborne fantasy-steampunk aircraft carrier held aloft by a dozen huge balloons and some whirlygig helicopter rotors or whatever. Add in the normal-for-steampunk "random glass tubes full of semi-magic green stuff" and you're there. You can even have the Inner Sphere (not-Europe) and the invasion of the mysterious clans (literal mongols?) and a communications chokehold carried out by the Trans-Continental Telegraph Company, and you don't find yourself handwaving away nuclear bombs and orbital bombardment by invoking treaties everyone adheres to despite the total absence of an entity that enforces them, or wondering how modern telecommunications infrastructure becomes lostech. I'm really not a fan of the typical steampunk aesthetic (glue nonfunctional cogs to everything) but it seems like a lot of what I read about Battletech could fit very neatly into the setting.
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Mar 28, 2014 00:10
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Battletech has a handwave about ranges being short because of omnipresent
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Mar 28, 2014 00:14
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Short ranges are an obvious consequence of wanting to design a game playable on the tabletop at a certain miniature scale, while having maximum ranges that matter. They have to be handwaved because of the futuristic setting. But it's always really transparent that it's handwaved, and you just have to suspend your disbelief so that the game can be fun.
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Mar 28, 2014 00:16
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Pretty much. Shooting blips on a radar screen doesn't make for good fiction. See also the Another Century's Episode series.
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Mar 28, 2014 00:18
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dis astranagant posted:Pretty much. Shooting blips on a radar screen doesn't make for good fiction. See also the Another Century's Episode series. I believe there's a sourcebook that flat-out says "ranges are truncated sharply for the sake of scale. If you want to play at a more 'realistic' range keep the scale the same but triple or quadruple all range brackets." Another thing is that the further you increase weapon ranges, the more you tip things towards sit-and-shoot mechs rather than mobile ones, since the movement speeds of mechs aren't increasing with it.
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Mar 28, 2014 01:16
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Pretty much. A fast battlemech would get passed on an interstate, no need to subject them to 3-4x as many turns of lrm, ppc, etc fire for something as silly as verisimilitude.
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Mar 28, 2014 01:20
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Yeah if you wanted to fight a realistic modern armored vehicle battle, your Modern warfighting can be just as interesting as pre-WWII close-quarters battles, but they don't really work for 6mm scale battlefields that fit on your tabletop.
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Mar 28, 2014 01:25
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Leperflesh posted:I've said it before, and I'll say it again; Battletech's military technology would be a much better fit for a steampunk game than it is for a far-future transgalactic science fiction setting. Counterpoint: Steampunk is poo poo.
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Mar 28, 2014 01:27
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