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While one can doubt the sincerity it was a good response. A weaker one and I'd have started going to Omiya. In December Zenit St Petersburg fans displayed racist banners, caused disturbances and set off fireworks. They were fined 40,000€ and had a partial stadium closure. Urawa is expected to incur costs of $1,000,000 USD. That fine against Zenit came from UEFA which is in charge of the whole of European soccer and organizes the second biggest tournament in world football. It is also being appealed as is similar behaviour by a Greek team. Urawa's management is also taking a 'voluntary' pay cut. So yeah, I think it is a big reaction against racism for Japan and also for football.
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Mar 18, 2014 12:42
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Zo posted:I hadn't seen that second quote reported. That's far less hand-wringy. I'm having a trouble understanding how this: quote:“There are various interpretations of what constitutes discrimination, but the important thing is not the intention but the way it is perceived by the victim,” said J. League chairman Mitsuru Murai. “With that in mind, this case can be considered nothing other than discrimination" is considered hand-wringy. He's saying that the intent doesn't matter, only the fact that the people who were the target of it felt offended. This prevents people from playing the "ohhhh but we didn't MEAN for it to be racist and therefore it can't be!" card. He follows it up with a very clear statement that there is no way this CAN'T be considered discrimination. He's basically saying that the supporter's excuses are pointless. That strikes me as extremely unhand-wringy.
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Mar 18, 2014 21:21
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Shinobo posted:I'm having a trouble understanding how this: Because the banner is obviously intentionally racist and that should be the point. The intent does matter and it matters a lot. Whether people get offended should be a distant second focus - recall that story of a student getting offended at a professor using the word "niggardly" for example, it's obviously NOT a case of discrimination despite some idiot getting offended. Anyway I'm happy to be wrong in this case seeing as he straight up called the banner racist, which it is.
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Mar 19, 2014 03:15
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On the other hand, the NON racist shithead population of Tokyo always does a good job of showing us that they are still in the majority.
Samurai Sanders fucked around with this message at 06:37 on Mar 19, 2014 |
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Mar 19, 2014 06:34
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Zo posted:Because the banner is obviously intentionally racist and that should be the point. The intent does matter and it matters a lot. Whether people get offended should be a distant second focus - recall that story of a student getting offended at a professor using the word "niggardly" for example, it's obviously NOT a case of discrimination despite some idiot getting offended. I think you're right about the banner being intentionally racist. That fact is obvious. I'm not so convinced that, especially in the case of Japan, intent should be primary in determining factor of whether or not someone is guilty of racism. In the case you mentioned there is no "victim" because there was no racial content to the word. It would be like someone getting mad at the word "car" for some odd reason. There was racial content in the banner and therefore the intent of the banner is irrevelant, as per Murai's comments. The intent cannot be the most important thing or else the burden of proof is removed from the accuser and placed on the victim to somehow "prove" intent. Imagine how impossible that would be in this case. The supporters could have manufactured all sorts of excuses to try and defend their actions while the loosely organized and ill defined victims would be forced to disprove any reason given as uncredible. Murai side stepped that logic trap deftly by defeating their protests before they even existed. The recent issue with ANA's stupid ad campaign is another good example of why intent cannot be a good metric I think. That was also very clearly racist, but I doubt very seriously that ANA's marketing department shares a similar worldview to those of the supporters. They didn't intend for the commercial to be insulting and idiotic, but it totally was.
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Mar 19, 2014 10:46
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At this point I think we're just arguing over nomenclature (like "victim"), and I don't actually disagree with anything you wrote, so maybe we can just wrap this up as a win and a step forward for japan.
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Mar 19, 2014 11:01
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Historian Hirofumi Hayashi has found proof in the form of testimony from a 1962 Ministry of Justice report that the military was involved in transporting comfort women and it paid local people to keep quiet: http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/kyodo-news-international/140322/japans-wartime-military-used-money-cover-sex-slavery-0quote:The Imperial Japanese military used money to cover up its use of sex slaves on the Indonesian island of Bali during World War II, according to a group of university researchers, citing a document found at the National Archives of Japan. mystes fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Mar 23, 2014 |
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Mar 22, 2014 23:55
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mystes posted:Historian Hirofumi Hayashi has found proof in the form of testimony from a 1962 Ministry of Justice report that the military was involved in transporting comfort women and it paid local people to keep quiet: http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/kyodo-news-international/140322/japans-wartime-military-used-money-cover-sex-slavery-0 What's the big deal, every country did it.  [/hashimoto]
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Mar 23, 2014 03:43
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Devil's advocate reply, one person's statement does not conclusive evidence make. Also: quote:A Japanese chief warrant officer stationed there during the Pacific War told a Justice Ministry investigation in August 1962 that he brought about 70 women to the military brothels and about 200 more by order of his military unit, according to the document. Sheep fucked around with this message at 14:27 on Mar 23, 2014 |
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Mar 23, 2014 14:24
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Sheep posted:Also: Hopefully they will publish the actual document. Edit: The Japan times has fairly high resolution images of the first two pages. The end of the second page has "これが効を奏したと見え、一番心配した慰安所の件は一 (end of page)". If this is the source of that line in the English version of the Kyodo newswire article, it was probably at the time he was involved that he was worried about it. 
mystes fucked around with this message at 15:07 on Mar 23, 2014 |
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Mar 23, 2014 14:52
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mystes posted:It's not very clear from the way this article is phrased, and the Japanese version is slightly different and doesn't include that line, but I think maybe they mean that he had feared it becoming known at the time he was involved, not that he feared that at the time the conducted the investigation. Its not very clear whether the hush money was for there being a "comfort station" placed near their village, or that they were taking woman from the village for the troops use. Obviously the first is pretty banal and not really telling as evidence of the abuses that happened. And if the 2nd then it's more proof for the pile of evidence supporting the Kono statement.
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Mar 23, 2014 21:53
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Oh wow there's going to be a retrial for Iwao Hakamada http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2014/03/27/national/japanese-court-decides-to-reopen-1966-murder-of-four/ Longest death row duration inmate in the world. And this is the unimaginably cruel japanese death row (which, among other things, doesn't tell you the date of your execution until the morning of, so everyday is immense psychological torture). I've been reading about his case since last year when several news sources ran a story on him. I really hope he gets out but I wonder how sane he still is. The normal Japanese prison is already often described by human rights organizations as being inhumane (for very different reasons than american prisons; this is not a contest) and this guy was on death row.
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Mar 27, 2014 06:45
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Zo posted:The normal Japanese prison is already often described by human rights organizations as being inhumane (for very different reasons than american prisons; this is not a contest) and this guy was on death row. Can you elaborate on those reasons? Not at all familiar with the Japanese prison system.
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Mar 27, 2014 07:14
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Paper Mac posted:Can you elaborate on those reasons? Not at all familiar with the Japanese prison system. Here's a good doc: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJp9nKaO7c4
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Mar 27, 2014 07:19
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Paper Mac posted:Can you elaborate on those reasons? Not at all familiar with the Japanese prison system. In summary, Japanese prisons are extremely orderly and safe, but impart severe psychological damage as a result of countless rules (many of which are entirely pointless except as show of control, down to when you can speak, move, stand, look up at the person speaking etc), eagerness to use isolation and other harsh methods of punishment at breaking any one of these rules, and total lack of transparency (and therefore accountability). The last point is particularly troublesome because most of the evidence you see in articles comes from first hand accounts which are easily denied, and unreliable state-sponsored press "tours". Death row is much worse of course. Isolation for years at a time, not knowing the time but knowing you might get called to die at literally any moment.
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Mar 27, 2014 07:40
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Thanks, appreciate the doc and summary!!
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Mar 27, 2014 07:54
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I know a dude who was tried for drug smuggling, was acquitted, was retried, and recently got his sentence of 11 years. The Japanese legal system is loving awful.
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Mar 27, 2014 08:50
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Well, if we're talking about the absence of anti-double-jeopardy laws that's hardly a Japanese thing, as evidenced by the recent trial of an American in Italy.
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Mar 27, 2014 08:56
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That and the conviction rate is ridiculous.
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Mar 27, 2014 08:59
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Dr.Radical posted:That and the conviction rate is ridiculous. The state attorneys are just very good at their jobs. Nothing to see here. Please move on.
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Mar 27, 2014 09:04
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Anyone who is interested in the legal system should watch the movie "I just didn't do it", based on a true story of a fake chikan accusation. Despite having tons of evidence to exonerate the accused, he still gets convicted for fairly arbitrary reasons. Really shows how messed up the legal system is in the country, and how the judges and prosecutors are in bed with each other, only caring about winning, with little interest in serving justice.
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Mar 27, 2014 09:19
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Original_Z posted:Anyone who is interested in the legal system should watch the movie "I just didn't do it", based on a true story of a fake chikan accusation. Despite having tons of evidence to exonerate the accused, he still gets convicted for fairly arbitrary reasons. Really shows how messed up the legal system is in the country, and how the judges and prosecutors are in bed with each other, only caring about winning, with little interest in serving justice. Seconding this. Really, this movie told me all I needed to know about the Japanese legal system. If I had to point to a single event that started me on the path from "I wouldn't mind living here until I retire" to "Only a couple more years before I move back", it would be watching this movie.
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Mar 27, 2014 09:35
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Original_Z posted:Anyone who is interested in the legal system should watch the movie "I just didn't do it", based on a true story of a fake chikan accusation. Despite having tons of evidence to exonerate the accused, he still gets convicted for fairly arbitrary reasons. Really shows how messed up the legal system is in the country, and how the judges and prosecutors are in bed with each other, only caring about winning, with little interest in serving justice.
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Mar 27, 2014 09:52
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The documentary film version of Freakonomics (which I just watched the other day) in the segment about sumo got a little bit into the issue of policing in Japan. Beyond just the massive conviction rate, apparently the police don't even take cases unless they're sure they can solve them. That also leads to an absurdly high case-solving rate that makes everyone feel good.
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Mar 27, 2014 10:08
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Bloodnose posted:The documentary film version of Freakonomics (which I just watched the other day) in the segment about sumo got a little bit into the issue of policing in Japan. Beyond just the massive conviction rate, apparently the police don't even take cases unless they're sure they can solve them. That also leads to an absurdly high case-solving rate that makes everyone feel good. Also, I remember reading that police can, in theory, lock you up for up to 28 days fairly easily while they attempt to get a confession out of you. Of course, anything with a confession will probably go through and get a conviction. EDIT: Although, a conviction isn't always that big a deal, especially if you showed remorse and never tried to obstruct the police. I was always told to plead guilty no matter what, even if I were innocent.
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Mar 27, 2014 10:19
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NeilPerry posted:EDIT: Although, a conviction isn't always that big a deal, especially if you showed remorse and never tried to obstruct the police. I was always told to plead guilty no matter what, even if I were innocent. That is terrible, dangerous advice.
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Mar 27, 2014 10:24
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LyonsLions posted:That is terrible, dangerous advice. Samurai Sanders fucked around with this message at 10:32 on Mar 27, 2014 |
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Mar 27, 2014 10:25
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NeilPerry posted:
Nah for this part it's similar america. Do not cooperate, call a lawyer, settle out of court. Police here are not out to help you in any way. http://www.japantoday.com/smartphone/view/crime/guilty-and-never-proven-innocent-every-male-train-riders-nightmare-in-japan quote:Attorney Takashi Nozawa provides the following advice to anyone who might find themselves caught up in this nightmarish, no-win situation If you give up a confession you are rightly hosed.
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Mar 27, 2014 10:31
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Zo posted:Nah for this part it's similar america. Do not cooperate, call a lawyer, settle out of court. Police here are not out to help you in any way. I wouldn't set out to do it myself, but knowing how headstrong they can be I'd be loving scared out of my mind if I were ever in that situation. I can imagine you'd keep weighing out the possible benefits of confessing for something you didn't do even more so than if you were in America.
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Mar 27, 2014 10:42
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Can't you just call a press conference and cry then everything will be forgiven?
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Mar 27, 2014 10:47
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Dr.Radical posted:That and the conviction rate is ridiculous. I liked that Phoenix Wright was apparently based slightly on actual Japanese courtrooms, especially the whole "we're trying this innovative system where the Judge doesn't literally convict someone whenever they want, it's called a jury".
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Mar 27, 2014 12:21
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Zo posted:If you are taken into custody on charges of groping, the first thing you need to do is call a lawyer. The lawyer can then call your family to inform them of the situation, and then a family member can call your employer and tell them you have suddenly taken ill and need a few days off. If someone from the company says they would like to visit you at the hospital, the family member can provide evasive answers and say something like the doctor has ordered “quiet rest” with no visitation allowed. Am I to take away from this that my impression that in Japan "X has been arrested" is seen as equivalent to "X is a criminal" is broadly accurate?
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Mar 27, 2014 12:45
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Renaissance Robot posted:Am I to take away from this that my impression that in Japan "X has been arrested" is seen as equivalent to "X is a criminal" is broadly accurate? Yes, people do lose their jobs for this.
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Mar 27, 2014 12:49
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NeilPerry posted:Also, I remember reading that police can, in theory, lock you up for up to 28 days fairly easily while they attempt to get a confession out of you. Of course, anything with a confession will probably go through and get a conviction. It's not a theory, it's a regular thing they do often - none of the process is required to be recorded, and the police often refuse food, water, medical treatment, and even sleep during this period. They don't even have to bring charges against you during this period, it's basically a way of going "confess or we're going to ruin your life for 3-28 days". I know I sure couldn't afford to miss up to four weeks of work, and the second your Japanese employer gets word that you've been arrested you're basically hosed anyways. On the upside if you have cash, the blood money concept is alive and well in Japan. Just keep about 100 man on hand at all times in case you hit someone while riding your bike or something. quote:But under the Supreme Court's interpretation of the Code of Criminal Procedure, suspects cannot end the interview—which is to say, the suspect cannot choose to leave the daiyō kangoku until the interview is concluded. Then you've got this to contend with if you're a suspected yakuza or foreigner. quote:「ヤクザと外国人に人権はないと教えられた」「検事が勝手に自白をしゃべって、それを被疑者に署名させるよう指導された」[...]『外国人は日本語が分からないから、日本語であればどんなに罵倒してもいい』 Sheep fucked around with this message at 13:02 on Mar 27, 2014 |
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Mar 27, 2014 12:52
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computer parts posted:I liked that Phoenix Wright was apparently based slightly on actual Japanese courtrooms, especially the whole "we're trying this innovative system where the Judge doesn't literally convict someone whenever they want, it's called a jury". There are a bunch of countries that don't have the jury system without becoming police states like Japan. I think there was a case a while ago where the police forced a confession out of someone they grabbed, and he was only released when the real criminal contacted the police and said "you got the wrong guy, but keep looking!" Seriously, the Japanese police is inept on a level that is almost unimaginable. They have low murder rates because apparently they treat a dead body found in a ditch as "unlawful dumping of a corpse" instead of murder.
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Mar 27, 2014 17:26
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How does the average Japanese person see the police and the judicial system?
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Mar 27, 2014 17:40
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:How does the average Japanese person see the police and the judicial system? edit: especially about the death penalty where the few people I talked to had righter-wing opinions on it than the rightest wing Americans I had ever heard. Samurai Sanders fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Mar 27, 2014 |
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Mar 27, 2014 17:47
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Samurai Sanders posted:I've only talked about it a bit with Japanese people, but they thought people caught by the police were bad guys by definition and gave them credit for Japan having so little crime. Going any more in-depth caused problems, so I gave up. That's pretty sad. You can't fight problems you don't even acknowledge.
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Mar 27, 2014 17:49
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:That's pretty sad. You can't fight problems you don't even acknowledge. New thread title right here.
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Mar 27, 2014 17:51
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Samurai Sanders posted:I've only talked about it a bit with Japanese people, but they thought people caught by the police were bad guys by definition and gave them credit for Japan having so little crime. Going any more in-depth caused problems, so I gave up. Yeah, even right wingers in America would acknowledge that the system sometimes messes up. The justice system in Japan is "foolproof", as evidenced by the near 100% conviction rate. Ergo, no one is executed unjustly. Ipso Facto and checkmate.  Talking about the death penalty with a Japanese people was the weirdest conversation I have ever had. I guess wrongly convicting people is just something lazy Canadian and Americans do.
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Mar 27, 2014 18:46
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