Ask us about Buddhism: This thread is Avici

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Popcornicus: Nov 22, 2007

Prickly Pete posted:

I think obsessing over attainments is obviously contrary to the point of reaching them, of course. But I also disagree that they serve no purpose. The Buddha said a great deal about attaining jhana, and striving toward that shouldn't be dismissed outright. I have seen this kind of reasoning before: People are obsessing over attainments, so we should instead do a complete 180 and encourage people to give them no weight or consideration whatsoever.

Maybe it is a Zen thing.

Brad's article states that awakening is like any other skill, in that awakening disappears if you don't continue to practice. This directly contradicts every extant form of Buddhism I'm aware of. It seems insane that he could make that argument without realizing that's at odds with what 'awakening' has meant throughout history. I guess it's possible he isn't aware of that background, which is scary. Then there's his claim in the non-duality interview that Eckhart Tolle could be a pratyekabuddha. A pratyekabuddha is a special type of self-awakened being that can only appear in the world when a Buddha's teaching isn't currently available. This is Buddhism 101.

Oh. Now that I've read further in the interview:

"Brad Warner posted:

As far as the 10 fetters model and a pratyekabuddha, honestly I don't pay great attention to that stuff. I only just learned what the 10 fetters model was about a month ago. I would have assumed the 10 fetters model only applied to a Buddha and not to a pratyekabuddha, anyhow. But I don't really know.

Lists like that are made by people who like to make lists. They don't really have any direct correlation to what happens in real life. It's hard for me to imagine anyone who had actually overcome the so-called 10 fetters subsequently wanting to sit down and make a list of them. For who? For other people to sit around and check them off for themselves? "It looks like I've overcome eight out of ten, only two more fetters to go!" I just can't see that happening. And wouldn't you risk fettering yourself to the list? Or to the vanity that comes from the accomplishment of having completed the list?

I'm speechless. So...Brad Warner actually knows next to nothing about Buddhism. It's likely that the Buddha himself came up with the 10-fetter model, the earliest known map of what happens when you practice a lot of Buddhist meditation. These are things I would expect a big-name Buddhist teacher to at least be aware of, even if they disagree with them. This is wacky stuff.

I agree with the criticisms of hardcore dharma and proclaiming attainments publicly (meaning outside a community of meditators) in this thread and elsewhere, but Brad Warner happens to be arguing the opposite approach (attainments don't exist) from a position of astounding ignorance.

It's taken as a given in the Theravada and in many Mahayana schools that the four classical Buddhist attainments the interviewer mentions (stream-entry, sakadagami, anagami, arahat) do exist. In the Theravada, it's practical knowledge that serious meditators commonly reach these attainments (and no, they don't go away if you stop practicing).

Popcornicus fucked around with this message at 04:29 on Mar 27, 2014

# ? Mar 27, 2014 03:39

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PrinceRandom: Feb 26, 2013

Aggh. Nevermind.

PrinceRandom fucked around with this message at 03:55 on Mar 27, 2014

# ? Mar 27, 2014 03:52

he1ixx: Aug 23, 2007; still bad at video games

Popcornicus posted:

Brad's article states that awakening is like any other skill, in that awakening disappears if you don't continue to practice. This directly contradicts every extant form of Buddhism I'm aware of. It seems insane that he could make that argument without realizing that's at odds with what 'awakening' has meant throughout history. I guess it's possible he isn't aware of that background, which is scary. Then there's his claim in the non-duality interview that Eckhart Tolle could be a pratyekabuddha. A pratyekabuddha is a special type of self-awakened being that can only appear in the world when a Buddha's teaching isn't currently available. This is Buddhism 101.

I've read a lot of books about zen buddhism and none really touch on any of the stuff you're taking as Buddhist dogma so its not really a surprise that he wouldn't be an expert on it.

Popcornicus posted:

I'm speechless. So...Brad Warner actually knows next to nothing about Buddhism. It's likely that the Buddha himself came up with the 10-fetter model, the earliest known map of what happens when you practice a lot of Buddhist meditation. These are things I would expect a big-name Buddhist teacher to at least be aware of, even if they disagree with them. This is wacky stuff.

I think he knows maybe next to nothing about Theravadan Buddhist canon maybe. Zen buddhism doesn't touch on the same models and maps that the Theravada seems pretty obsessed with defining. I don't recall coming up against the 10-fetter model in my Tibetan buddhist reading either. I think its more revealing that a "big-name" Buddhist teacher can do just fine in communicating the ideas of Buddhist thought to people without knowing anything about it.

Popcornicus posted:

I agree with the criticisms of hardcore dharma and proclaiming attainments publicly (meaning outside a community of meditators) in this thread and elsewhere, but Brad Warner happens to be arguing the opposite approach (attainments don't exist) from a position of astounding ignorance.

It's taken as a given in the Theravada and in many Mahayana schools that the four classical Buddhist attainments the interviewer mentions (stream-entry, sakadagami, anagami, arahat) do exist. In the Theravada, it's practical knowledge that serious meditators commonly reach these attainments (and no, they don't go away if you stop practicing).

I think we need to be careful with how we are talking here. It isn't "taken as a given" that these four attainments are even a thing in some branches of Buddhist thought. Because this stuff isn't fitting what you're choosing to define as Buddhist canon doesn't make it so. Your terms like "attainments", "do exist", "practical knowledge" and "serious meditators" are all things that will generally chafe with it comes to Zen Buddhism because they define boxes around things that are undefinable, unprovable and subjective. And how do you *know* they don't go away if you stop practicing? What "self" do they stick with? What if you stop practicing Buddhism? Do you still keep the anagami badge you earned when you were practicing and pick up where you left off if you pick up meditating 50 years later? You seem pretty sure about how this whole "path to enlightenment" thing works but from where from where I'm standing, all of this stuff is pretty amorphous. Interesting nonetheless.

# ? Mar 27, 2014 13:26

Ugrok: Dec 30, 2009

Hello Popcornicus !

I think the purpose of Brad is not really to deny that meditation changes things, but to question the need to name attainments and to make maps of attainments and so on. I think his point of view is that doing so only leads to categorizing experiences and creates needless concepts, and has only contrary effects concerning what meditation is about : getting free from categories, from goals, etc.

Saying that he knows nothing about buddhism is a bit severe and sad ; maybe i'm wrong, but you come out as angry to have your ideas about what buddhism should or should not be challenged, and i don't think it serves your argumentation : it shows that clinging to those attainments is not a good thing. Would you stop practicing if someone proved to you, a + b, that there are no attainments at all ? If the answer is yes, then you have a goal oriented practice, and it's a good thing to be conscious of it i think, which i hope you are - because i think that the purpose of meditation is "less goals", not "more goals" !

Does enlightenment go away or not ? Who cares, really. And who's to say.

PS : As helix, never did i read about attainments or fetters or anything like that in the "contemporary masters" buddhist books (outside zen in which there is absolutely nothing about this stuff, as helix correctly said) i read - mainly Trungpa and Chodron, who are from the same lineage.

Ugrok fucked around with this message at 13:50 on Mar 27, 2014

# ? Mar 27, 2014 13:44

Rhymenoceros: Nov 16, 2008; Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five?

It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will.

Why don't we all just respect that there are a lot of different takes on Buddhism?

We are all probably more wrong about the type of Buddhism we think is right, than about any other type of Buddhism. If we were totally right about the Buddhism we think is right, then we would all be enlightened anyway, right?

It's not so hard to deconstruct how defending ideas on the internet is contingent on identifying with the idea so much that criticism of the idea becomes criticism of yourself.

As an exercise, I recommend being mindful whenever you find yourself incensed by what someone else is posting. Let Ajahn Trollpost teach you the Dhamma.

# ? Mar 27, 2014 14:17

Ugrok: Dec 30, 2009

I totally agree. I think discussing on forums should be a tool for us to soften our fixed views on things...

It's not easy, though...

# ? Mar 27, 2014 15:22

Popcornicus: Nov 22, 2007

Ugrok posted:

Saying that he knows nothing about buddhism is a bit severe and sad ; maybe i'm wrong, but you come out as angry to have your ideas about what buddhism should or should not be challenged, and i don't think it serves your argumentation : it shows that clinging to those attainments is not a good thing. Would you stop practicing if someone proved to you, a + b, that there are no attainments at all ? If the answer is yes, then you have a goal oriented practice, and it's a good thing to be conscious of it i think, which i hope you are - because i think that the purpose of meditation is "less goals", not "more goals" !

Does enlightenment go away or not ? Who cares, really. And who's to say.

PS : As helix, never did i read about attainments or fetters or anything like that in the "contemporary masters" buddhist books (outside zen in which there is absolutely nothing about this stuff, as helix correctly said) i read - mainly Trungpa and Chodron, who are from the same lineage.

"Brad Warner posted:

So attainments don�t stay around by themselves. I can�t come up with a single one that does in any area of life. You have to work at all of them. Why should meditational attainments be different?

The model of spiritual attainment we have nowadays in the West (which may have its roots in the ancient east, so you can�t just blame it on us) has it that one attains certain levels of enlightenment and that this situation remains fixed forever. But that model is just weird. Nothing works that way.

I should've said "he knows nothing about the forms of Buddhism he's attempting to criticize".

The third noble truth means that there's an indestructible position of safety from suffering. In other words, once you wake up, you don't go back to sleep.

Including the fourth noble truth, that there exists an (eightfold) path to the cessation of suffering, the noble truths are a call to action and intense striving: if you have conviction they're true, you'll follow the eightfold path (including meditating a lot) to reach that unfailing place of safety. Without this possibility of permanent freedom, Buddhist meditation is just another form of stress relief like exercise or massage. On this point, Brad is really out on a limb.

Zen is the least attainment-focused collection of Buddhist schools, but since Zen is part of the Mahayana, the permanence of awakening is implicitly an element of Zen - at least historically. Dharma transmission was originally a teacher's certificate of 1) the student's attainment of an irreversible realization plus 2) the recognition that a student's understanding had matured through grueling contemplation and study. This prevented inexperienced teachers from claiming qualifications to teach. Later, the criteria for receiving dharma transmission were relaxed for various reasons - people could buy transmission or teachers would give transmission to unenlightened students to keep the lineage going - so dharma transmission lost its value as a certification system.

Books by Trungpa and Chodron are not comprehensive overviews of Tibetan Buddhism. Tibetan Buddhism generally uses its own system of 10+ bodhisattva bhumis, but these are considered parallel to (with levels equivalent to) the four paths in the 10-fetter model. It's also worth noting that all of the teachers cited in this discussion, including Trungpa, Chodron, Warner, and Ingram, have been criticized for softening or misrepresenting aspects of their traditions in their books and/or conduct. I think all of them (including Warner) offer useful instruction, but all of them are also controversial for good reason. In my last few posts I'm merely pointing out one reason Warner is controversial. He's taking Zen's typical lack of emphasis on attainments to an extreme by arguing that attainments don't exist at all.

In the Theravada, as in other schools, time spent ruminating on attainments is better spent in practice. It's fascinating that a tradition so focused on renunciation and letting go has clearly defined attainments at all. Attainments are useful for two purposes: so practitioners can evaluate whether a teacher is awake according to that teacher's conduct, and so practitioners can know in detail what it means to find the cessation from suffering. If the tradition has no recorded criteria for awakening, then you end up with teachers who claim the cessation of suffering doesn't exist, which is antithetical to (many forms of) Buddhism.

Rhymenoceros posted:

As an exercise, I recommend being mindful whenever you find yourself incensed by what someone else is posting. Let Ajahn Trollpost teach you the Dhamma.

We're all in this thread so our ideas about Buddhism can collide and come away changed. All of the posts in this discussion and generally across the thread have seemed well-intentioned, sincere, and people are engaging with each other's arguments instead of insulting each other or talking past each other. As long as these discussions don't become an obstacle to practice, there's no harm done.

Popcornicus fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Mar 27, 2014

# ? Mar 27, 2014 16:41

People Stew: Dec 5, 2003

I don't think what popcornicus said was entirely out of line. Maybe a little harsh, but it happens to the best of us.

I also think there is a fine line between openly discussing Dhamma and considering the various traditions, and having an "anything goes" attitude about interpretations of the teaching. That kind of willingness to let unorthodox interpretations of the Buddha's teaching fly by as acceptable is not, in my opinion, a good thing at all. In fact, it leads to distortions of the teachings if those interpretations are passed down as Dhamma.

In this case, you have a teacher who has a large number of students from what I gather, making declarations that fly in the face of some pretty core ideas the Buddha taught. The idea of attainments isn't some esoteric side-teaching that is particular to Theravada. It is present in Zen as well, from what I have read. I think the term kensho is probably a similar attainment to stream-entry (sotapanna in Pali). Maybe someone can correct me on that. I'm pretty sure that the Diamond Sutra also implies gradual stages of enlightenment, which seem to fall in line with the way they are outlined in the Pali suttas as well.

To say I know nothing about Zen is a huge understatement, but I really wonder if this view being expressed by Brad Warner is truly in line with Zen teachings as understood by anyone in this thread.

# ? Mar 27, 2014 17:16

People Stew: Dec 5, 2003

Also, from that interview:

quote:

Lists like that are made by people who like to make lists. They don't really have any direct correlation to what happens in real life. It's hard for me to imagine anyone who had actually overcome the so-called 10 fetters subsequently wanting to sit down and make a list of them. For who? For other people to sit around and check them off for themselves?

I am not even sure how to respond to that statement. It shows a complete ignorance of the history and development of Buddhism. There is an entire Nikaya/Agama, containing several thousand suttas, that is composed of teachings that are laid out in lists or numerically. The teachings were transmitted this way as they were easier to remember during times of oral transmission. That a published author who claims some kind of authority as a teacher would make statements like this is frustrating.

# ? Mar 27, 2014 17:32

Ugrok: Dec 30, 2009

We should not, i think, throw away the fact that Brad Warner has a personality ; he's a punk, after all, ahahah... He just says what he thinks, bluntly, and with a provocative tone, always. It shakes things up a bit, which, personally, i like, but it might also be annoying for some, it is understandable.

There is kensho in zen literature, especially in Rinzai zen. In rinzai, they strive for enlightenment, and godos in the zendos can yell at you to "try harder" to "get enlightened". You have a few description and stories of kenshos in the Three Pillars of Zen. Brad talks about them as well in a few of his books. Honestly when you read the experiences of kensho, it just sounds like guys on acid having a great trip, then, well, they go back to their lives and have to live as anyone else.

In soto zen, which is Brad Warner's lineage, masters talk about kensho as well and don't deny its existence, but it's no big deal. You won't find any serious soto zen master who tells you that he achieved anything. On the contrary. Read Kodo Sawaki's "to you", he says it time after time : zazen is good for nothing, it has no purpose, it does nothing. So in this paradigm, kensho is certainly not something to strive for. It's just a state, and like any other state, it comes and goes. Soto zen is really about life as it is, in the most simple way, and does not deal with other stuff. Personnaly i think that Brad Warner, in this article, is perfectly in line with his soto zen lineage, which is Kodo Sawakis lineage.

Edit : about lists : yeah he obviously spoke too fast on this point, but at the same time, it's not because there are lists in buddhism that we should cling to lists and make them our way of life.

Edit 2 : Here is what Kodo Sawaki writes on Satori, Kensho, practice, etc. He was one of the great masters of soto zen, master of Nishijima, who was Brad's teacher.

quote:

12. To you who is wondering if your zazen has been good for something

What�s zazen good for? Absolutely nothing! This �good for nothing� has got to sink into your flesh and bones until you�re　truly practicing what�s good for nothing. Until then, your zazen is really good for nothing.

You say you want to become a better person by doing zazen. Zazen isn�t about learning how to be a person. Zazen is to stop being a person.

Zazen is unsatisfying. Unsatisfying for whom? For the ordinary person. People are never satisfied.

Isn�t it self-evident? How could that which is eternal and infinite ever satisfy human desires?

Unsatisfying: simply practicing zazen.
Unsatisfying: realizing zazen with this body.
Unsatisfying: absorbing zazen into your flesh and blood.

Being watched by zazen, cursed by zazen, blocked by zazen, dragged around by zazen, every day crying tears of blood � isn�t that the happiest form of life you can imagine?

You say �When I do zazen, I get disturbing thoughts!� Foolish! The fact is that it�s only in zazen that you�re aware of your disturbing thoughts at all. When you dance around with your disturbing thoughts, you don�t notice them at all. When a mosquito bites you during zazen, you notice it right away. But when you�re dancing and a flea bites your balls, you don�t notice it at all.

Don�t whine. Don�t stare into space. Just sit!

13. To you who says that you have attained a better state of mind through zazen

As long as you say zazen is a good thing, something isn�t quite right. Unstained zazen is absolutely nothing special. It isn�t even necessary to be grateful for it.
Wouldn�t it be strange if a baby said to its mother, �Please have understanding for the fact that I�m always making GBS threads in my diapers.�
Without knowledge, without consciousness, everything is as it should be.
Don�t stain your zazen by saying that you�ve progressed, feel better or have become more confident through zazen.

We only say, �Things are going well!� when they�re going our way.

We should simply leave the water of our original nature as it is. But instead we are constantly mucking about with our hands to find out how cold or warm it is. That�s why it gets cloudy.

There�s nothing more unpleasant than staining zazen. �Staining� means making a face like a department head, corporate boss or chairperson. Washing away the stains is what�s meant by �simplicity� [shikan].

There are bodhisattvas �without magical abilities�. These are bodhisattvas who have even entirely forgotten words like �practice� or �satori�, bodhisattvas without wonderful powers, bodhisattvas who are immeasurable, bodhisattvas who are not interested in their name and fame.

Zazen isn�t like a thermometer where the temperature slowly rises: �Just a little more � yeah � that�s it! Now, I�ve got satori!� Zazen never becomes anything special, no matter how long you practice. If it becomes something special, you must have a screw lose somewhere.

If we don�t watch out, we�ll start believing that the buddha-dharma is like climbing up a staircase. But it isn�t like this at all. This very step right now is the one practice which includes all practices, and it is all practices, contained in this one practice.

If you do something good, you can�t forget you�ve done something good. If you�ve had satori, you get stuck in the awareness of having satori. That�s why it�s better to keep your hands off good deeds and satori. You�ve got to be perfectly open and free. Don�t rest on your laurels!

Even if I say all of this about the buddha way, ordinary people will still use the buddha-dharma to try and enhance their value as humans.

14. To you who do everything you can to get satori

We don�t practice in order to get satori. It�s satori that pulls our practice. We practice, being dragged all over by satori.

You don�t seek the way. The way seeks you.

You study, you do sports, and you�re fixated on satori and illusion. So that even zazen becomes a marathon for you, with satori as the finish line. Yet because you�re trying to grab it, you�re missing it completely.
Only when you stop meddling like this does your original, cosmic nature realize itself.

You say you�re seeking the way, but what does it mean if you�re seeking the way just to satisfy yourself?

You want to become a buddha? There�s no need to become a buddha! Now is simply now. You are simply you. And tell me, since you want to leave the place where you are,where is it exactly you want to go?

Zazen means just sitting without even thinking of becoming buddha.

We don�t achieve satori through practice: practice is satori. Each and every step is the goal.

15. To you who is showing off your satori

Why don�t you simply have �I have satori!� tattooed all over your body?
If you�re not conscious of your stomach, that�s proof your stomach is healthy. If you can�t forget your satori, that�s proof that you haven�t got any.

You think that you�re something special because you�ve got satori, but you�re simply showing off your sack of flesh.

When an ordinary person has got satori, he�s called a Zen-devil . This is because he thinks he�s something special.

When people talk about satori, it usually just means that a devil has acquired magical powers.

When you know you�re doing something bad, then it isn�t so serious. But people who chat about their satori don�t even realize they�re doing something bad. That�s why they�re such helpless cases.

No illusion is as hard to cure as satori.

Don�t take pride in your practice. It�s clear that any satori you take pride in is a lie.

You�ve got it backwards if you talk about stages of practice. Practice is satori.

Satori is like a thief breaking into an empty house. He breaks in but there�s nothing to steal. No reason to flee. No one who chases him. So there�s nothing which could satisfy him either.

Ugrok fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Mar 27, 2014

# ? Mar 27, 2014 17:39

ashgromnies: Jun 19, 2004

Brad Warner's perspective(Zen) is that Kensho is an initial awakening that must be furthered after initially being reached. Buddhahood or full enlightenment is different; he was referring to kensho rather than full enlightenment when he said that it needs to be cultivated afterwards.

# ? Mar 27, 2014 17:47

Ugrok: Dec 30, 2009

ashgromnies posted:

Brad Warner's perspective(Zen) is that Kensho is an initial awakening that must be furthered after initially being reached. Buddhahood or full enlightenment is different; he was referring to kensho rather than full enlightenment when he said that it needs to be cultivated afterwards.

Really, i think his perspective is that he does not care at all about kensho or enlightenment. But we should ask him on his blog !

# ? Mar 27, 2014 17:52

People Stew: Dec 5, 2003

Ugrok posted:

We should not, i think, throw away the fact that Brad Warner has a personality ; he's a punk, after all, ahahah... He just says what he thinks, bluntly, and with a provocative tone, always. It shakes things up a bit, which, personally, i like, but it might also be annoying for some, it is understandable.

I understand. I'm not really trying to make a personal critique of him as a person. I just think he is displaying a surprising lack of knowledge about things I would expect a Buddhist teacher to be at least somewhat aware of.

Ugrok posted:

There is kensho in zen literature, especially in Rinzai zen. In rinzai, they strive for enlightenment, and godos in the zendos can yell at you to "try harder" to "get enlightened". You have a few description and stories of kenshos in the Three Pillars of Zen. Brad talks about them as well in a few of his books. Honestly when you read the experiences of kensho, it just sounds like guys on acid having a great trip, then, well, they go back to their lives and have to live as anyone else.

In soto zen, which is Brad Warner's lineage, masters talk about kensho as well and don't deny its existence, but it's no big deal. You won't find any serious soto zen master who tells you that he achieved anything. On the contrary. Read Kodo Sawaki's "to you", he says it time after time : zazen is good for nothing, it has no purpose, it does nothing. So in this paradigm, kensho is certainly not something to strive for. It's just a state, and like any other state, it comes and goes. Soto zen is really about life as it is, in the most simple way, and does not deal with other stuff. Personnaly i think that Brad Warner, in this article, is perfectly in line with his soto zen lineage, which is Kodo Sawakis lineage.

Thanks for explaining that. I really need to get my rear end in gear and do some reading on Zen. I am already about 1/4 of the way through a stack of various Buddhist books and articles that are littering my room though. Someday.

Ugrok posted:

Edit : about lists : yeah he obviously spoke too fast on this point, but at the same time, it's not because there are lists in buddhism that we should cling to lists and make them our way of life.

Of course. They are simply a vehicle for the teachings, and I think most practitioners are aware of that. I was really referring to the fact that I found it surprising that a published author and teacher would say something like "What's the deal with all these lists in Buddhism?".

# ? Mar 27, 2014 17:57

ThePriceJustWentUp: Dec 20, 2013

I want to side with everything Popcornicus is saying. Enlightenment is the dissolution of the whole structure. It does not come back. It is not a skill to be practiced, but the delusion to be eradicated. And Buddhism and so-called "harsh speech" are not at odds. When you're saying something concrete and important, I think it is important to say it strongly. Anyone who is put off by that is looking for milquetoast Buddhism, and milquetoast life, if I can use the expression in that way. You've gotta swing for the fences sometimes. However harshness for the sake of harshness is never really helpful.

# ? Mar 27, 2014 18:08

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

Zen has notions of both gradual and sudden awakening, though they aren't seen as being meaningfully different in practice or goal. Mostly Zen stays quiet about attainments because people go off the loving deep end to justify how spiritually loving attained they are. It is up to debate whether a quintessential part of the experience of being a Buddhist is the process whereby a person's illusions of "oh wow, I could really be enlightened, golly wouldn't that be great!" eventually disintegrate and they come to accept that they/we are just another human trying to do our best (hopefully) on this here planet.

It is not to say that no practice stuff matters, just that pride in practice is one of the greatest dangers of practice. Also, once you look/read into Zen you start finding a lot of stuff about how important it is to be wary of spiritual/religious teachers. Many people get way into some "Spiritual Seeker of the Truth" kinda stuff and end up completely blurring the distinction between being an easily exploited patsy and actually being an autonomously functioning individual. To be clear, that specifically isn't to say that there's no point in practicing nor to say that one shouldn't be supportive of or respectful towards practitioners (and everyone else, of course). Rather, there is some fruit of practice, it just doesn't really look like what people would expect it to. The reality is more that people learn about the real world and about people and the ways people interact. Also a bit about this weird meditative states of being stuff, too, but that is almost entirely internal experience and profoundly individual, so most of what is taken away is insight into people.

That's what I've gathered from the Zen perspectives on the subject. To be clear, there's a fairly prominent theme in Zen discourse where people turn up all wide-eyed and wanting some elaborate mystical training that they've already imagined to include a bunch of abstract things. Then the reality of cooking and cleaning and sitting sinks in and they want to leave and go find the people who will really teach them how to be elite serious meditators or whatever. So they leave, often with a few words of warning about, 'you're going to run into some frauds wearing robes along the way. Please watch out for yourself: don't take everyone at their appearance or claims.' That is to say that Zen has a strong, though not over-the-top (I don't personally think) preoccupation with how to keep people who are often trying to escape from the world from running into the worst of the worldly. This is also partly where words are seen to really fall short: people who are totally set in their own notions are almost impossible to dissuade. Often, getting into an argument with them will only strengthen their conviction that they are on a superior road to those dumb bald-headed fools or whatever.

To put that a bit more concisely: Zen makes very little sense without the awareness that it is absolutely a response to extreme worldliness. A lot of people turn up thinking that they are going to escape all of the concerns of the world forever with practice and the reality of just how impossible that is tends to be a rather intense thing to run into. That has been the case since it's conception.

Have a bit of a poem by one of the Zen patriarchs, too:

Penetrate the source and travel the pathways; embrace the territories and treasure the roads.
You would do well to respect this, do not neglect it.
Natural and wondrous it is not a matter of delusion or enlightenment.
Within causes and conditions, time and season, it is serene and illuminating.
So minute it enters where there is no gap, so vast it transcends dimension.
A hairsbreadth's deviation and you are out of tune.
Now there are sudden and gradual, and teachings and approaches arise.
When teachings and approaches are distinguished, each has its standard.
Whether teachings and approaches are mastered or not, reality constantly flows.

Anyways, I'm done butchering Zen history and perspective. Sorry about all the things I probably put poorly in all of that. Hopefully it makes some sense. Hopefully it is fully clear that my bias around Buddhism is to emphasize seeing it through the worldly perspective that Buddhism co-exists with. I obviously don't think it is perfect, but I do have a lot of respect for the sincerity with which it tends to embrace the possibility of a less completely materialist perspective or worldview.

As a final note: Sudden and Gradual are euphemisms for the Rinzai and Soto schools of Zen respectively. Rinzai's tradition, at least in theory, emphasized sudden awakening, Soto Zen emphasizes a gradual approach to awakening. Neither is seen as superior, in fact they're seen as being simply two approaches that are mutually complementary. Insofar as Zen acknowledges awakening, to be seen as well-rounded it is expected to contain a bit of both. Though frankly, what awakening is or is not is pretty damned unimportant to Zen practice.

Now I'm done butchering Zen history and perspective for real, this time.

# ? Mar 27, 2014 18:15

Ugrok: Dec 30, 2009

Thank you all for the discussion, it's really great to be able to talk about this !

The Mole, i think the poem you quoted is from Dogen's Shobogenzo. Which is the best buddhist book ever. If only i could understand a tenth of it, of course...

# ? Mar 27, 2014 18:54

Rhymenoceros: Nov 16, 2008; Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five?

It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will.

ThePriceJustWentUp posted:

I want to side with everything Popcornicus is saying. Enlightenment is the dissolution of the whole structure. It does not come back. It is not a skill to be practiced, but the delusion to be eradicated. And Buddhism and so-called "harsh speech" are not at odds. When you're saying something concrete and important, I think it is important to say it strongly. Anyone who is put off by that is looking for milquetoast Buddhism, and milquetoast life, if I can use the expression in that way. You've gotta swing for the fences sometimes. However harshness for the sake of harshness is never really helpful.

I respectfully disagree! Harsh speech is exactly something to be abandoned according to the Buddha:

[AN 8.40 posted:

"Harsh speech � when indulged in, developed, & pursued � is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from harsh speech is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to unappealing sounds.

Skillful speech is an excellent way to train the mind. If there is an opportunity to incline the mind towards kindness, towards peace, then you should take it! To be a bit concrete: if you feel the need to speak harshly, there's basically a 99% probability that's just some ill will.

I mean, the situations where it's appropriate to speak harshly are pretty exceptional, and even then you could probably achieve the same thing saying it kindly anyway, as recommended by the Buddha:

AN 5.198 posted:

"Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five?

"It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will."

Why are people so attached to wrong speech anyway? If you speak softly and kindly, then your mind becomes soft and kind, which basically makes you a happier person and leads to great meditation.

# ? Mar 27, 2014 19:03

ThePriceJustWentUp: Dec 20, 2013

Rhymenoceros posted:

I respectfully disagree! Harsh speech is exactly something to be abandoned according to the Buddha:

Skillful speech is an excellent way to train the mind. If there is an opportunity to incline the mind towards kindness, towards peace, then you should take it! To be a bit concrete: if you feel the need to speak harshly, there's basically a 99% probability that's just some ill will.

I mean, the situations where it's appropriate to speak harshly are pretty exceptional, and even then you could probably achieve the same thing saying it kindly anyway, as recommended by the Buddha:

Why are people so attached to wrong speech anyway? If you speak softly and kindly, then your mind becomes soft and kind, which basically makes you a happier person and leads to great meditation.

I guess it's not worth stressing because the people who have conviction are going to speak strongly no matter what anyone says, so I guess I agree with you. I meant strongly not harshly. But let the conviction come first not the manner of speech.

# ? Mar 27, 2014 19:10

he1ixx: Aug 23, 2007; still bad at video games

ThePriceJustWentUp posted:

I want to side with everything Popcornicus is saying. Enlightenment is the dissolution of the whole structure. It does not come back. It is not a skill to be practiced, but the delusion to be eradicated. And Buddhism and so-called "harsh speech" are not at odds. When you're saying something concrete and important, I think it is important to say it strongly. Anyone who is put off by that is looking for milquetoast Buddhism, and milquetoast life, if I can use the expression in that way. You've gotta swing for the fences sometimes. However harshness for the sake of harshness is never really helpful.

I hope its not too harsh for me to speak this way but a lot of the stuff you say makes no sense -- neither from a Buddhist perspective or from a human one. There are specific mentions against "harsh speech" in Buddhist texts and someone who is such an "expert" should know that. But a lot of your recent posts are really wacky lately. Hope you're doing ok, buddy.

# ? Mar 27, 2014 20:22

ThePriceJustWentUp: Dec 20, 2013

he1ixx posted:

I hope its not too harsh for me to speak this way but a lot of the stuff you say makes no sense -- neither from a Buddhist perspective or from a human one. There are specific mentions against "harsh speech" in Buddhist texts and someone who is such an "expert" should know that. But a lot of your recent posts are really wacky lately. Hope you're doing ok, buddy.

Thanks, I'm doing fine. In Hawaii right now. Couldn't ask for much more. However I realize constantly how deluded I am and how clearly I don't see. Don't use that against me--I think barely any of you in this thread have realized this yet and still hope that Buddhism will give you something somehow if you follow all the rules. It's not that way. Take what works, make it personal, and figure out what these teachers are saying on your own. That's not a criticism, it's a difficult thing to realize until it creeps on you through fate or chance, but it's worth stressing anyway. It's meant to spur you on. To get serious. I don't know anything about anyone here, I'd say this in any (spiritual) crowd, and I generally do.

I'll try to stop posting in this thread if I'm going to get a bad reception every time but I stand by everything I ever said. The path is tough and confusing. If I were done with the path, I probably wouldn't be on these forums anymore. Who knows.

# ? Mar 28, 2014 06:16

Count Freebasie: Jan 12, 2006

ThePriceJustWentUp posted:

Thanks, I'm doing fine. In Hawaii right now. Couldn't ask for much more. However I realize constantly how deluded I am and how clearly I don't see. Don't use that against me--I think barely any of you in this thread have realized this yet and still hope that Buddhism will give you something somehow if you follow all the rules. It's not that way. Take what works, make it personal, and figure out what these teachers are saying on your own. That's not a criticism, it's a difficult thing to realize until it creeps on you through fate or chance, but it's worth stressing anyway. It's meant to spur you on. To get serious. I don't know anything about anyone here, I'd say this in any (spiritual) crowd, and I generally do.

I'll try to stop posting in this thread if I'm going to get a bad reception every time but I stand by everything I ever said. The path is tough and confusing. If I were done with the path, I probably wouldn't be on these forums anymore. Who knows.

Although there are people here who certainly disagree with many of your points (I certainly do

), and we can all disagree with each other on various points/forms of Buddhism, I don't believe that anyone has ill will towards you as a person. We are all deluded, and everyone of us who is a practicing Buddhist is well aware of our condition.

Except me. I'm realized, and actually an emanation of Green Tara.

Om Freebasie Tuttare Ture Soha

# ? Mar 28, 2014 12:32

WAFFLEHOUND: Apr 26, 2007

ThePriceJustWentUp posted:

I'll try to stop posting in this thread if I'm going to get a bad reception every time

This was all any of us were asking of you. Thank you.

ThePriceJustWentUp posted:

but I stand by everything I ever said.

Pretty much everything you have said in this thread has either been word salad or more than misguided but demonstrably wrong. You've made comments about enlightenment, harsh speech, substances, seeking skillful help, etc. that run contrary to literally every school of Buddhism and disagree with the teachings themselves in totally unambiguous ways. None of us have any problem with you trying to get access to the Dharma and learn more, but most of us do have a problem with how you present your wildly crazy worldview to those who come in here asking questions on what Buddhism is. If you want to start your own thread about your own personal theology I'm sure that'd be interesting, but as it stand you're posting like someone who claims large degrees of authority and has no knowledge of what he is meant to be authoritative of.

I'm not actively trying to be a dick, but a good percentage of this thread, and certainly a majority of posters here, have asked you to stop posting here. Your behaviour both in presenting the Dharma and interacting with others has been totally inappropriate and you've already been banned once and probated twice for your content in this thread.

To provide you with some more insight beyond just making you feel unwanted (which, make no mistake, in the context of this thread you are unwanted) might I recommend listening to Urban Dharma podcasts when you're out for a drive? Possibly glance at the interpretations in the Sutras on how they are broken or upheld, or maybe some dialogues on discerning speech? If you seek out a physical Sangha you will be in a much better position to get the education you need, and maybe concede that if you're going to stand by your readily falsifiable statements that this perhaps isn't the best place to do so.

WAFFLEHOUND fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Mar 28, 2014

# ? Mar 28, 2014 16:50

ThePriceJustWentUp: Dec 20, 2013

All I can say then is that if you really think that about what I've written, you are in for one big surprise after another. Just trying to prepare you all for them in whatever way I can.

All emotions/thoughts are pain, yet getting fed up is important, in order to break away from them, to exhaust them somehow. Meeting an actual teacher is helpful too (not just the Ajahn Brahms of the world). On the other side of all this is actual freedom, and you'll never want to go back. You've got to be willing to go the distance though. Do you need to go the distance? Then you'll make it.

ThePriceJustWentUp fucked around with this message at 17:27 on Mar 28, 2014

# ? Mar 28, 2014 17:09

he1ixx: Aug 23, 2007; still bad at video games

ThePriceJustWentUp posted:

All I can say then is that if you really think that about what I've written, you are in for one big surprise after another. Just trying to prepare you all for them in whatever way I can.

All emotions/thoughts are pain, yet getting fed up is important, in order to break away from them, to exhaust them somehow. Meeting an actual teacher is helpful too (not just the Ajahn Brahms of the world). On the other side of all this is actual freedom, and you'll never want to go back. You've got to be willing to go the distance though. Do you need to go the distance? Then you'll make it.

Wafflehound hit the nail on the head. You seem to think that Buddhism is something that you use to get to a point where you can do whatever you want and say whatever you want because once you really KNOW you don't need the dharma or the "rules". This "go the distance"/"never go back" stuff sounds like complete and utter nonsense and I'm genuinely worried about you. It sounds like the writings of someone who's had some sort of mental break and is reinforcing how they feel by saying they've reached the "other side". I was serious about saying I hope you're ok and that all of this bullshit feels like a forum persona you're trying to propagate. That'd be nice. if you were really on the other side of something profound like liberation, I doubt you'd spend so much time defending your ego by posting here because the stuff you're typing isn't helping anyone.

Thanks for not posting and good luck in the future. Get better.

# ? Mar 28, 2014 17:37

ThePriceJustWentUp: Dec 20, 2013

Yup it is a mental breakdown. You got that part right. And being by the rolling waves of a tropical beach is all the help I need right now.

Also notice I never used the phrase "defending your ego". There's nothing to defend. Like an armed guard guarding an empty bank. The defenses are the only thing going on. There's nothing behind them. Why are we all defending?

# ? Mar 28, 2014 17:50

Ugrok: Dec 30, 2009

Allow me to derail !

Do any of you know of any teachings on "time" (or have anything interesting to say about it) ? I don't know if it's because of practice, but lately i am more and more disturbed by the feeling of impermanence. The fact that every second that passes is gone forever drives me really anxious (which is strange, cause it did not a few weeks ago, ahah - it's like an existential anxiety, as in "how can i live and exist if things just keep disappearing and reappearing all the time ?"), and i would like to have a wider buddhist point of view on this kind of suffering, and time in general. I know a bit of the work of Dogen, but that's it. I don't know if it's a good idea to investigate this, though, but oh well. Thanks in advance !

# ? Mar 28, 2014 19:01

ThePriceJustWentUp: Dec 20, 2013

There we go. Now thats a post i can relate to. Ill stop providing my input though. The questions are enough. Carry on

# ? Mar 28, 2014 20:29

Cumshot in the Dark: Oct 20, 2005; This is how we roll

Ugrok posted:

Allow me to derail !

Do any of you know of any teachings on "time" (or have anything interesting to say about it) ? I don't know if it's because of practice, but lately i am more and more disturbed by the feeling of impermanence. The fact that every second that passes is gone forever drives me really anxious (which is strange, cause it did not a few weeks ago, ahah - it's like an existential anxiety, as in "how can i live and exist if things just keep disappearing and reappearing all the time ?"), and i would like to have a wider buddhist point of view on this kind of suffering, and time in general. I know a bit of the work of Dogen, but that's it. I don't know if it's a good idea to investigate this, though, but oh well. Thanks in advance !

I can't give you an answer on the Buddhist conception of time, but what you feel can certainly happen at points. Really, don't worry about it, nothing has actually changed, just your awareness, and this will become perfectly natural in time. Doing samatha meditation is a great way to help yourself stay grounded.

# ? Mar 28, 2014 21:40

Rhymenoceros: Nov 16, 2008; Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five?

It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will.

Ugrok posted:

Allow me to derail !

Do any of you know of any teachings on "time" (or have anything interesting to say about it) ? I don't know if it's because of practice, but lately i am more and more disturbed by the feeling of impermanence. The fact that every second that passes is gone forever drives me really anxious (which is strange, cause it did not a few weeks ago, ahah - it's like an existential anxiety, as in "how can i live and exist if things just keep disappearing and reappearing all the time ?"), and i would like to have a wider buddhist point of view on this kind of suffering, and time in general. I know a bit of the work of Dogen, but that's it. I don't know if it's a good idea to investigate this, though, but oh well. Thanks in advance !

Well, the impermanence of things is basically what makes life inherently unsatisfactory, so I would say the first noble truth is a good place to start.

"Now this, monks, is the Noble Truth of dukkha: Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha."

I'm a little unsure with what you mean by seconds being gone forever, there's an unlimited supply of new seconds, and things aren't really gone either, there's the conservation of energy and so on. Care to elaborate?

# ? Mar 28, 2014 22:14

People Stew: Dec 5, 2003

I have had those exact same sensations when pondering or meditating on impermanence. It is kind of like staring over the edge of a building from the top floor - there is a definite sense of uneasiness involved, I think, or a feeling that you might topple into something if you consider it for too long. I had some moments during meditation where I felt that considering impermanence too heavily was taking me in a scary direction.

It is part of the path that leads to ending suffering though, as unsettling as it can be to go through this kind of thing. It teaches us not to cling to impermanent things as though they are lasting. As much as we can rationalize that in our minds in an intellectual sense, actually experiencing it, even a little bit, can be very jarring to your sense of comfort.

The Buddha talked a lot about anicca. In fact, his last words (according to the Maha-parinibbana Sutta) were about the impermanence of all things. It is part of the teaching that you have to come to terms with at some point.

Access to Insight has a kind of compilation of writings about impermanence that is a good read. This doesn't really address your question about time specifically, but the two topics are certainly related to each other in some ways.

quote:

Just as in the autumn a farmer, plowing with a large plow, cuts through all the spreading rootlets as he plows; in the same way, bhikkhus, the perceiving of impermanence, developed and frequently practiced, removes all sensual passion... removes and abolishes all conceit of "I am."

� SN 22.102

# ? Mar 28, 2014 22:16

Ugrok: Dec 30, 2009

Well, you know, it feels like every second i live is just gone and can never be lived again. It's really really sad. And there is the anxiety : where does that sense of permanence come from ? How can i be the same, moment after moment, when in fact everything that makes me is forever lost, moment after moment ? It's exactly as pricjly pete described : what the hell am i going into if nothing stays from moment to moment ?

# ? Mar 29, 2014 06:42

People Stew: Dec 5, 2003

You are directly facing the suffering that we experience based on the three marks of existence: dukkha, anicca, and anatta. It probably isn't helpful for what you are feeling, as it isn't an answer, but it is basically the exact direction you should be facing. The entire purpose of insight meditation, and the wisdom that results, is the understanding that allows you to live without suffering due to the ignorance that causes us to think that conditioned phenomenon are somehow lasting and existing with some kind of self.

There is a Pali term that describes the exact sensation you are experiencing (probably a sansrkit one also) but I can't think of it off hand. Something like the uneasiness that occurs when one starts to peel away the layers of anicca. I think meditation is the only real antidote, honestly. Even if it isn't entirely pleasant.

# ? Mar 29, 2014 07:00

Rhymenoceros: Nov 16, 2008; Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five?

It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will.

Ugrok posted:

Well, you know, it feels like every second i live is just gone and can never be lived again. It's really really sad. And there is the anxiety : where does that sense of permanence come from ? How can i be the same, moment after moment, when in fact everything that makes me is forever lost, moment after moment ? It's exactly as pricjly pete described : what the hell am i going into if nothing stays from moment to moment ?

Can you look at it from another perspective? The fact that every second is gone and can never be lived again, that's also what makes life precious. If you could have a permanent second, you wouldn't really enjoy it, you wouldn't care for it.

The fact that every thing you hold dear and love will be separated from you, is actually why you have to care about life; that loved one isn't going to be in your life forever, but that's why you care, that's why it's special, that's why we say "I'm sorry", that's why we say "I forgive you". Impermanence teaches us what's actually important in life.

This type of anxiety, in my experience, comes from not enough compassion towards oneself. It is tough being a living, conscious being, but then you have some beautiful compassion for yourself because of that.

Whenever I have suffering in my life, I look at my suffering and I say to myself "this is suffering, this is painful, this is part of life, and I cannot escape this" and then I have compassion for myself. With compassion, the pain is much less severe, it can even disappear.

'Right intention' from the noble eightfold path, is the intention to let go, to be kind and to be gentle. This means you actually make peace with life. You make peace with what life is. Part of right intention is letting go of wanting life to be something else.

Right, but you don't do this with despair or bitterness in your heart, you cultivate this beautiful kindness and gentleness towards life. If you want a concrete exercise: locate the anxiety on your body (usually the feeling comes with a tightness somewhere in the abdominal area), next time you sit down or lie down to relax, pretend that tightness is a cute little furry animal that is scared, shivering with fear.

Then you visualize that you stroke and pet that little scared animal with as much love and tenderness that you can muster. Then visualize the animal becoming more relaxed and less scared, until it's totally relaxed and happy.

This is just a way to exert right intention, try to note its effect on the anxiety.

# ? Mar 29, 2014 10:13

Red Dad Redemption: Sep 29, 2007

Ugrok posted:

Well, you know, it feels like every second i live is just gone and can never be lived again. It's really really sad. And there is the anxiety : where does that sense of permanence come from ? How can i be the same, moment after moment, when in fact everything that makes me is forever lost, moment after moment ? It's exactly as pricjly pete described : what the hell am i going into if nothing stays from moment to moment ?

This reminded me of a passage from Suzuki that I thought you might appreciate:

D T Suzuki, Essays in Zen Buddhism, vol. 1 posted:

Life delineates itself on the canvas called time, and time never repeats; once gone, forever gone; and so is an act once done, it is never undone. Life is a sumiye-painting which must be executed once and for all time and without hesitation, without intellection, and no corrections are permissible or possible. Life is not like an oil painting, which can be rubbed out and done over time and again until the artist is satisfied. With a sumiye-painting any brush stroke painted over a second time results in a smudge; the life has left it. All corrections show when the ink dries. So is life. We can never retract what we have committed to deeds; Zen therefore ought to be caught while the thing is going, neither before nor after. It is an act of one instant. This fleeting, unrepeatable and ungraspable character of life is delineated graphically by Zen masters who have compared it to lightning or sparks produced by percussion of stones.

The idea of direct method appealed to by masters is to get hold of this fleeting life as it flees and not after it has flown.

Separately, I was thinking about picking up a copy of Opening the Hand of Thought, having seen it recommended in a few places. Would you happen to have read it, and if yes, any impressions?

# ? Mar 29, 2014 16:24

Ugrok: Dec 30, 2009

Thanks a lot for all you wrote, guys.

I feel exactly what DT Suzuki says, in zazen : sometimes, you are just with the flow, and things are okay. I think it is really when you somehow get out of it, because of mental chatter or of overconceptualization, that you suffer.

I read "opening the hand of thought", and i loved it. It emphasizes a really simple practice, without "toys", as Uchiyama says. Uchiyama was a disciple of Kodo Sawaki, and this is my favorite lineage. It's a good read.

# ? Mar 29, 2014 18:06

Mr. Mambold: Feb 13, 2011; Aha. Nice post.

Ugrok posted:

Allow me to derail !

Do any of you know of any teachings on "time" (or have anything interesting to say about it) ? I don't know if it's because of practice, but lately i am more and more disturbed by the feeling of impermanence. The fact that every second that passes is gone forever drives me really anxious (which is strange, cause it did not a few weeks ago, ahah - it's like an existential anxiety, as in "how can i live and exist if things just keep disappearing and reappearing all the time ?"), and i would like to have a wider buddhist point of view on this kind of suffering, and time in general. I know a bit of the work of Dogen, but that's it. I don't know if it's a good idea to investigate this, though, but oh well. Thanks in advance !

I think your angst about it is great, and I wouldn't call it suffering, I'd call it true perception, and would encourage you to embrace it without getting caught up by it. Prickly Pete sums it up nicely.

I don't know of teachings about time other than what I've experienced. I know we experience time with our brains, seemingly slowly in childhood, faster as we age; but, when we sleep or go off in meditation, we don't experience it the same way, if at all. So it's tied to our experience in this world. But that's not all we are.

I've seen it as a plastic sort of flow that interweaves karma, that in this world we think we're on a 1-way street of event-causality or something, but a part of us that plays as us- call it buddha nature or diamond body, is "above" time and owns it.
I "saw" it as the dual helix like the dna model coming down into my head, but with energy flowing "up and down, in and out, birthing and dying" into my brain, like Jacob's Ladder in the O.T. We're burning karma, and creating karma. We burn time and create time.
Then I thought about the umbilical cord looking like that too, and I was a bit floored. I know that's totally mystical and non-buddhist, but it's what it was.

# ? Mar 30, 2014 03:21

Shnooks: Mar 24, 2007; I'M BEING BORN D:

I'm looking at changing my sangha and there's one with more convenient times for me that's affiliated with Boundless Way Zen. Does anyone know much about them? I'm really afraid I'll be caught up in a cult or something. It seems like BWZ is trying to establish Zen sanghas in the west, which I can get behind.

# ? Mar 30, 2014 23:41

reversefungi: Nov 27, 2003; Master of the high hat!

Are you in Boston? I was attending Boundless Way Zen for a month or two back in October before I decided that Zen wasn't for me, but it had nothing to do with their sangha. They are really small but seem like a very solid community. Definitely not a cult or anything, all their teachers have legitimate dharma transmissions, and their heads come from several different schools (Soto, Rinzai, Kwan Um) which makes for a necessary amount of diversity. They have monthly sesshins which are a suggested donation but you can come for free, they offer dokusan every other week, and they offer instruction in both Koans and Shikantaza. Definitely check it out!

# ? Mar 31, 2014 01:23

Shnooks: Mar 24, 2007; I'M BEING BORN D:

The Dark Wind posted:

Are you in Boston? I was attending Boundless Way Zen for a month or two back in October before I decided that Zen wasn't for me, but it had nothing to do with their sangha. They are really small but seem like a very solid community. Definitely not a cult or anything, all their teachers have legitimate dharma transmissions, and their heads come from several different schools (Soto, Rinzai, Kwan Um) which makes for a necessary amount of diversity. They have monthly sesshins which are a suggested donation but you can come for free, they offer dokusan every other week, and they offer instruction in both Koans and Shikantaza. Definitely check it out!

I am in Boston! Do I know you? I was attending Boston Old Path meetings but their times are inconvenient and/or the meetings were entirely retired people in their 60s. I've been looking for another sangha that has better times to meet. Do you have any other recommendations?

# ? Mar 31, 2014 01:34

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# ? May 15, 2024 12:07

reversefungi: Nov 27, 2003; Master of the high hat!

Shnooks posted:

I am in Boston! Do I know you? I was attending Boston Old Path meetings but their times are inconvenient and/or the meetings were entirely retired people in their 60s. I've been looking for another sangha that has better times to meet. Do you have any other recommendations?

I don't think we've met, but I know that they're generally based in the MA area so I just made an assumption! Are you in the Cambridge/Somerville area? I personally attend the Shambhala Boston center since they have a real sizeable community of younger practitioners. While their center is in Brookline, they have a smaller meetup group on Wednesday nights out at the Armory as well. If you're only interested in Zen then they're not the right group for you, but if you're more open to Tibetan Buddhism and the Shambhala flavor they're definitely worth checking out. Other big sanghas in the area are the Cambridge Zen Center which practices Kwan Um Zen, and the Cambridge Insight Meditation Center which I believe has a group for young people as well. There are probably a couple of other smaller groups too but I'm not too aware of them.

# ? Mar 31, 2014 02:50

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Ask us about Buddhism: This thread is Avici

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