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dazat posted:Here's the full poll: http://dengekionline.com/elem/000/000/787/787372/index-2.html Interesting, Five is the lowest ranked sister (11) and Octa is the lowest ranked apostle (9). I'm surprised two is in tenth place, I kind of thought she would be more popular. Dazat: how do you rank the apostles in terms of likeability?
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Mar 18, 2014 01:27
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dazat posted:All this character discussion is really interesting! In terms of how sympathetic they are, I rate the sisters as follows: Two-Four-One-Five-Three. I rank Five higher than Three because she doesn't seem entirely aware of how bad what she's doing to Dito is and her treatment in the main game was pretty pitiful (like getting her body mutilated by Dito, coming back to life as a rotting corpse, etc.), whereas Three with her 'doll-making' doesn't seem like any kind of improvement over the corrupt lords the Intoners were fighting against in the first place. See, Caim was at least a half functional person at one point and his insanity can be directly traced to Brother One, by extension One and also Zero. I feel her apathy towards mass murder is worse then Caim's, because he was primarily fighting enemy combatants in a war. He's indicated to have a sort of decline, but Zero's just always been kinda rotten. I mean she's pretty sadistic about it out of no other reason then because she can be. She keeps on killing people, albiet with something of a justication in Drakengard 3 but I don't really see how she's not worse then Caim. I'm not sure if it was ever stated, but I feel like part of why the flower grew in front of her in particular was related to that, somehow. Not that we're ever really given an indication what the other five were like pre-mortem, but I'd imagine they weren't much better off the Zero was but they were at least in theory trying to make a positive change. I don't see her as morally ambiguous at all, thinking on it a bit more. I wouldn't consider Ed Gein 'morally ambiguous' if he died trying to put out a fire he started or something. She treats Mikhail pretty badly for a fair amount of time, too. I don't think she's got a genuinely sympathetic moment.
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Mar 18, 2014 01:49
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:Dazat: how do you rank the apostles in terms of likeability? I think all the Apostles are pretty likable, actually! Decad and Octa are perverts but also pretty decent and nice people. Cent can be annoying and shady but his pure love for Two is redeeming. Dito is pretty messed up but he's also a kid who's been through some awful poo poo so it's hard not to sympathize with him. Just in terms of my personal favorites, I guess it'd go like this: Decad->Dito->Octa->Cent. Anatharon posted:I don't think she's got a genuinely sympathetic moment. Well, you say insanity but I don't think Zero was ever insane. If you're going to compare someone to Ed Gein, it should be Caim since the pleasure he gets out of killing and his compulsion to do so is a lot like a serial killer. His mental decline is tragic and his hatred for the Empire is understandable, but it's pointed out again and again during the original game that his main prerogative is to get his murder jollies off, to the point that everything else, including the Union and even his sister, is secondary to him. Also like a serial killer, he has a specific type of victim, that being anyone associated with the Empire, but since they're mostly soldiers (possessed ones who don't beg for their lives like in Drakengard 3) working for an evil cause it's easier to swallow. In comparison, Zero kills indiscriminately but is driven entirely by her survival instinct. I don't agree that she's sadistic so much as severely lacking in empathy, which is something I feel is a result of the world she lives in. From the moment she was born she was continuously taken advantage of, betrayed and treated like a commodity, which in turn is how she treats the people around her. For example, she doesn't kill children because it excites her but because she believes if she lets them live they'll eventually come after her for killing their parents and that's a valid threat to her survival. I'm not trying to argue that what she did wasn't abhorrent or excusable, but you can't argue the shitsack world she lives in doesn't support her rhetoric, either. The thing about Zero is, though, that she abandons that rhetoric at the end of her short story. She finds herself deeply emphasizing with the five freedom fighters and because of them, realizes how much she actually hates the world she lives in for rewarding people like her and the corrupt Lords. I think the Flower appeared to her because of how intense her hatred was for the world in her dying moments; the Flower wants to destroy the world, their motivations match up, so perhaps that's why it considers her a viable vessel. But Zero ends up betraying the Flower's expectations, as well. It's hard to believe that the Zero from earlier in her short story, the one who'd kill anyone in order to stay alive herself, would care enough to try to destroy the Flower once she learned what it was, but she does. The Intoner sisters are born from Zero herself, not the freedom fighters she met, when she tries to commit suicide to eliminate the Flower (I believe she explains how the Flower created them as a survival measure in the flashback stage on Route D). They're testament to how big an impact the freedom fighters had on Zero, though, since they're inspired by them which is why the first thing they do is try and take down the evil Lords. Zero lets them do it, too; in One's short story it's mentioned she set a specific date, after their triumph over the Lords, to meet them in battle with Michael. Also remember that Zero is planning on killing herself once she finishes off her sisters, which was the real point behind recruiting a dragon. I think that's all pretty selfless for a person who was dealt an awful hand by fate. Like, again, I do like Caim a lot as a character and consider his descent into madness understandable, but up until age eighteen or so he lived a privileged life, esp by Drakengard standards. Compare that to Zero who was born at the bottom of the social ladder as a nameless (seriously, that's why she calls herself Zero) child prostitute. It's not like she asked to be possessed by the flower or give birth to the Intoners, either, I don't think you can really blame her for what happened with Brother One. Also, Zero absolutely loves Michael/Mikhail. It's a big part of her character. She is strict toward him and her language is abusive, yeah, but it's also implied that she's trying to whip him into shape as a dragon so he can survive even when she's gone; I'm pretty sure Yoko Taro once compared her to a schoolmarm in relation to him in an interview. Take how she reacts to his deaths in Ending B and C: in the former she sacrifices her mission in order to bring him back to life and in the latter losing him drives her completely insane. You don't have to actually find her sympathetic, that's a personal thing, but there's no denying the game went out of its way to emphasize their relationship. Okay, that's probably enough  for one evening, lol.
dazat fucked around with this message at 06:33 on Mar 18, 2014 |
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Mar 18, 2014 05:07
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Huh, this post definitely made me understand Zero's character better. At first I thought it was strange that Zero would suddenly want to save the world after spending most of her life killing indiscriminately. But the freedom fighters inspiring her to try to do something somewhat positive actually makes sense. One more apostle related question: Why are the apostles birds at the end? Had they always been birds? Were they turned into birds? What was up with that?
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Mar 18, 2014 10:55
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:One more apostle related question: Why are the apostles birds at the end? Had they always been birds? Were they turned into birds? What was up with that? The implication is that they're not human but artificial beings created by the power of the flower, like the Intoners themselves. I guess they were probably originally birds given human shape... the game never really explains it very well, though. The Complete Guide (something akin to Grimoire Nier) is coming out in early April, and I'm hoping that will clear up some of the vaguer elements of the story such as this one.
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Mar 18, 2014 16:21
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We'll all be relying on you to deliver us to the enlightened world of Taro Yoko's brain box!
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Mar 18, 2014 18:54
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dazat posted:The Complete Guide (something akin to Grimoire Nier) is coming out in early April, and I'm hoping that will clear up some of the vaguer elements of the story such as this one. 
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Mar 18, 2014 19:52
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I don't recall offhand but in Zero's short story doesn't she could get by just as well without murdering everyone she came across but it was mostly habit by then? This is entirely unrelated but man, Zero was always pretty nuts strong for a diseased waif. She killed the bouncers because they were half dead and the prostitutes were sleeping and probably not much stronger then her anyways, but B&E requires a little more muscle then that. dazat posted:[spoiler]Compare that to Zero who was born at the bottom of the social ladder as a nameless (seriously, that's why she calls herself Zero) child prostitute. It's not like she asked to be possessed by the flower or give birth to the Intoners, either, I don't think you can really blame her for what happened with Brother One. That's sort-of related to something I wonder if we'll ever find anything more about. How much of them was supposed to be based off of Zero? Four at the very least had a less then reliable memory. e: welp guess I accidently deleted most of my post here.
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Mar 18, 2014 20:43
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Apparently, NieR was inspired by 9-11.
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Mar 21, 2014 00:37
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That seems about right. A lot of Nier's atmosphere, and in particular the back story, always gave me 9/11 vibes. Also learning that Yoko actually does write his stories tragedies first is amusing. Anyway, I ran through Four's DLC (like I said, they're pretty short): It wasn't as interesting as the previous three, I felt. You do learn more about Four's character and sheesh, she is insufferable! The story starts with her and Decad finishing off soldiers still loyal to the corrupt Lords. Four keeps trying to dress up her killing with pretty words (this is a big habit of hers) and is constantly looking for Decad to validate what she's saying. Being her (happily) submissive Apostle, he does, but Gabriella, who was asked by One to lend Four a hand, is constantly calling Four on her poo poo. For example, Four keeps going on about how she hates fighting, but she makes sure to hunt each and every last enemy down, even if they're running away; when Gabriella accuses her of enjoying fighting, she objects, instead insisting that she's only doing so for One's sake; she demands that Gabriella and Decad refer to what they're doing not as 'killing' but as 'winning a Holy War'; and she's constantly putting down her other sisters (except for Zero and One) in comparison to herself (calling Two and Cent's love 'dirty', Three 'twisted' (well, she's right, but...) and going on and on and ooooon about what a terrible selfish disgusting person Five is, who she obviously feels the most inferior to). That's not to say she doesn't have any moments of vulnerability. When she tells Decad about how she wants to wait before they do anything so they can develop true love between them, or when she trails off about how hurt she is that One won't thank her for all her efforts, you can hear hints of what might be a sweet girl. But because she's ashamed of these parts of her being 'weak', she quickly covers them back up with her holier-than-thou attitude that drives Gabriella insane. As one of the storybook cutscene puts it: "The Dragon perceived a large hole in the Intoner's words, and in her heart. Through this hole, a bitterly cold wind was blowing, but the Dragon couldn't understand why..." In the last Verse, Four rides Gabriella out into battle pursuing Elven Air Pirates; presumably she gets the Airship she uses in the main game from them. Before the fight, Decad informs her they are running away, and doesn't think that they are threats any longer, but Four coldly insists they must be rid of them lest they bear their fangs at One again. As they're destroying ships, Gabriella is disturbed by the death wails of the Elves on board (the strange thing is that they're really high-pitched; like, I could understand if they were faeries, but aren't Elves in the Drakengard-world more or less humans with pointed ears? They sound like they've all been inhaling helium, which somehow makes their crying and screaming even more disturbing to me, but I think someone else could just as easily find them hilarious). "They're screaming! Why are we doing this? Doesn't this get to you at all?!" Gabriella asks, but Four isn't the least bit bothered. Actually, she's having the time of her life. "It's okay to kill them, Gabriella! They're evil-doers! As an Intoner, I represent justice! And besides... they're not even human! So it's okay for them to die!" Four gleefully cries out. And that's where the DLC ends. dazat fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Mar 21, 2014 |
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Mar 21, 2014 01:53
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Do these DLC campaigns have plenty of meat to them? How long do they take on average to complete, would you say?
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Mar 21, 2014 03:02
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Lunethex posted:Do these DLC campaigns have plenty of meat to them? How long do they take on average to complete, would you say? Eeeeh. Honestly they're on the short side, which is why I wish they'd have released them in pairs like they did the first week instead of stretching things out like this. Each DLC is about four Verses long (which equates to 5 or so levels I guess?), and it takes me 45 minutes to an hour to complete one. There's also some replay value if you want to take the time to level your Intoner sister up to 10, which unlocks some storyline information in the form of their 'memories' (diary-like text entries). There's a fair amount of dialogue (although it could just be me, but I felt like Four's had less than the rest) and while there are no proper cutscenes, you do get three little movies illustrated in that cute Tim Burton-esque style. After you beat the main game gold soldiers show up in every level so you can farm for gold, and you get each sister's weapon to use as Zero. So basically it comes with enough stuff that I'd call it worth the 600 yen or whatever. But plenty of meat? I don't know. They're not bare bones, but maybe more like a lean meal.
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Mar 21, 2014 04:48
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dazat posted:Anyway, I ran through Four's DLC (like I said, they're pretty short): Well, that's disappointing. In several ways. The last line is funny, though. I guess it DOES account for Four being so stupidly manipulated during her boss fight, if she really idolizes Zero and One so much. Even so, you'd think that someone who put up with Decadus' masochistic ploys would see through other ruses. The DLC also suggests why Four and Decadus are together. Both find meaning in subservience. I still pity Four the most of all the Intoners, primarily because she's the only one who doesn't get to enjoy life before Zero starts up the murderin' machine.
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Mar 21, 2014 04:53
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dazat posted:Four's DLC On the one hand I’m disappointed that Four’s level isn’t very interesting; on the other hand it makes sense that the character with the inferiority complex has the least entertaining DLC. So on a meta-level I’m satisfied. Four is still the most interesting sister to me. She’s a sadist who doesn’t want to be a sadist, or at least she doesn’t want to ADMIT to herself she’s a sadist. In her DLC and her short story the only times she’s truly happy is when she hurting/killing someone or breaking something. If she embraced her violent side she’d basically be a female version of Caim, but she doesn’t. Instead she covers up her desires and impulses and obsessively plays the part of a “good girl”. She seems to know how a “good girl” is supposed to think and feel (kind, nonviolent, pure) and she tries to behave as if these are things that come naturally to her. Does she behave this why because her own violent nature scares her? Or does she do it because she’s desperate for people too love her, and she fears they’d be repulsed if they saw the real her? Either way she desperately wants to be validated for her behavior. She’s also obsessively irritated be people who don’t try as hard to be good as she does (Two, Three, and especially the hedonistic no-fucks-given Five). She’s probably painfully jealous that either don’t care about trying to be good (Three, Five) or because they don’t have to try to be good because the genuinely are good (Two). They’re everything she secretly wants to be, and she can’t loving stand it. It’s a shame she doesn't get more story focus or character development, but again on a meta-level that sort of suits her.
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Mar 21, 2014 08:38
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:On the one hand I’m disappointed that Four’s level isn’t very interesting; on the other hand it makes sense that the character with the inferiority complex has the least entertaining DLC. So on a meta-level I’m satisfied. Same here. I almost wish she were the main character, but I probably shouldn't say that before playing her DLC. Her sadism seems a product of her self-loathing and resentment. She can't take it out on her sisters or herself (or Decadus, because he'd enjoy it and that'd be filthy, nasty, and WRONG), so she vents it all through self-righteous bloodlust. In her short story she fumes over the ways her sisters are better than her, but later she doesn't appear to envy them for any specific traits so much as she envies them for being secure in themselves. Four's an Ego, trying to balance morality and legality (One and Two) with pure indulgence (Three and Five) and doing a pretty bad job of it. Or maybe she's just the kid who always got picked last for kickball. I dunno. I feel like I'm being pranked whenever I sympathize with any Drakengard 3 characters who aren't the adorable dragon.
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Mar 21, 2014 18:45
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It's not that she doesn't get character development, it's just that it's... negative character development. Like, maybe they were trying to counteract the fact that she came off as too sympathetic during the main storyline or something. That said, I think something to keep in mind about the Intoners too is, magical Goddess powers aside, they are basically girls in their late teens/early twenties and act like it. Taking away their more murderous impulses, I've known girls a lot like One (the comically serious over-achieving valedictorian type), Two (the sweet one whose sweetness could actually go full circle and start to get on your nerves), Three (the beautiful but intensely freaky girl who attracts men like flies in a way you can't wrap your head around) and Five (the attention-seeking girl who would never shut up about sex). I myself was probably more like Four as a teenager than I'd like to admit. To be honest, and the DLC is just reinforcing this for me, but I'm actually sort of pleasantly surprised by the way the female characters are written in Drakengard 3. Obviously they're not positive role models, but I appreciate that their flaws are unique to them as individuals and that they're not typecast in a typical misogynistic way. The main scriptwriter being a woman is maybe a factor?
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Mar 21, 2014 22:21
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Does that make Zero the weird girl who smells of something unpleasent and writes poetry on Deviantart?
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Mar 22, 2014 00:43
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dazat posted:To be honest, and the DLC is just reinforcing this for me, but I'm actually sort of pleasantly surprised by the way the female characters are written in Drakengard 3. Obviously they're not positive role models, but I appreciate that their flaws are unique to them as individuals and that they're not typecast in a typical misogynistic way. The main scriptwriter being a woman is maybe a factor? I'd argue that because they aren't perfect and are pretty screwed up, they are good role models. They're actually like people, kind of. Except for maybe Three... How many female characters, in games especially, are shown as having a personality other than a flat one sentence description? Usually, they just end up falling into a sort of "Too Perfect" or "Too Dull" Anatharon posted:Does that make Zero the weird girl who smells of something unpleasent and writes poetry on Deviantart? Wouldn't that be more Three's thing? Weird, always talking about weird stuff, etc. Zero seems more like she'd be the delinquent and Anyway, here's some of the Utahime stuff I've been slacking on, translated by me and everything else byToudou at Tumblr. Here's the prologue It's definitely a lot lighter than anything Drakengard has put out before. And then we get to Ch.1 where poo poo actually starts happening and we've got Lords making dolls out of children.CAVIA! 
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Mar 28, 2014 01:38
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They're like.. Anti-Role models. Like Duke Nukem saves the earth but I don't think he'd be a positive role model.Postal Parcel posted:
Well Three has creepy guys fawning over her and nobody like Zero.
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Mar 28, 2014 07:34
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I finished Five's DLC. There's not much to say about it story-wise. I don't mean that in a bad way, it was a lot of fun to play. I find Five to be the coolest-looking sister and her move-set/weapon is great (since spears are my favorite weapon) There just wasn't much of a story. Basically Five is dragging Dito along looking for different gourmet foods, such as legendary meat in the desert and mushrooms in the mountains. It comes out that Five tends to torture villagers to find out about these local foodstuffs (Dito says he doesn't mind some good old-fashioned torture, but he thinks most people don't do it to find out about ingredients), and there's a little subplot about Five killing a female soldier and later her little sister while scolding them for not taking better care of their appearance. "Rather than being skewered on this sword, wouldn't you prefer being skewered by a man's ***?"). Gabriel is sent to keep an eye on the pair which she does begrudgingly (she doesn't take well to being called a Grandma Dragon by Dito) and the final battle is a fun aerial battle against a giant crab wearing a ship on its head. Half-way through the fight Gabriel discovers by its smell that it's rotting, but neither Five nor Dito take issue with this; in fact it only excites them further. The DLC ends with them chomping down on icky half-rotting crab flesh. Tasty! Next week is Zero and Michael's DLC. I wish there were more! I'd like another one centering on One just to find out what happens to Gabriel, and one for Accord. dazat fucked around with this message at 02:06 on Mar 29, 2014 |
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Mar 29, 2014 02:03
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Postal Parcel posted:I'd argue that because they aren't perfect and are pretty screwed up, they are good role models. I...don't think the word "role model" should be used to describe any Drakengard character ever. They're all horrible/mentally deranged/tragically flawed people. That's not to say they aren't good characters ("good" as in "well written and developed", not "morally good"), they're just not people you want to emulate. That's some good translation work on the manga, I wish there was an official English release. The sisters story seems a lot more interesting than whatever the gently caress male one is doing in the other comic series. dazat posted:I finished Five's DLC. Five and Ditto are both gross, violent hedonists. No surprises there. Five really does have a cool design, but I like Four's look a bit better because she's wearing argyle socks which I find loving hilarious.
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Mar 29, 2014 06:00
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:I...don't think the word "role model" should be used to describe any Drakengard character ever. They're all horrible/mentally deranged/tragically flawed people. Emil is a role model to children everywhere. 
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Mar 29, 2014 06:52
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ImpAtom posted:Emil is a role model to children everywhere. Emil isn't in Drakengard, he's is Nier You're right though, he gets constantly screwed over by life yet still keeps trying his hardest  Kaine and Fyra are also good role models, but again they're Nier characters
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Mar 29, 2014 11:31
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Yeah, I think the only 'good' characters in Drakengard might just be the dragons (Angelus, Mikhail, Gabriella, not counting the Black Dragon/Legna). At the very least, they act much less monstrously than the majority of the humans.
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Mar 29, 2014 17:07
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Both Angelus and Legna were totally fine with exterminating humanity. Though seeing is this is Drakengard we're talking about, maybe it really isn't that horrible. 
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Mar 29, 2014 17:10
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Accordion Man posted:Both Angelus and Legna were totally fine with exterminating humanity. Though seeing is this is Drakengard we're talking about, maybe it really isn't that horrible. But even Angelus was like "Do you really need to kill that many?" in response to Caim's murderlust. You know you're bad when you're able to freak out an 1000+ year dragon.
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Mar 29, 2014 19:33
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dazat posted:Yeah, I think the only 'good' characters in Drakengard might just be the dragons (Angelus, Mikhail, Gabriella, not counting the Black Dragon/Legna). At the very least, they act much less monstrously than the majority of the humans. Nowe wasn't so much bad as he was just deeply, deeply stupid.
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Mar 29, 2014 19:58
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Is the novella in the collector's edition all of the short stories released before the game was released in Japan or is it something different?
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Mar 29, 2014 20:32
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ultrafilter posted:Nowe wasn't so much bad as he was just deeply, deeply stupid. I'd call a guy that sends the world into chaos, after being explicitly told not to and why, a pretty bad person. The only reason anyone likes Nowe at all is because he's the protagonist.
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Mar 29, 2014 22:53
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ultrafilter posted:Nowe wasn't so much bad as he was just deeply, deeply stupid. Nowe wasn't stupid. Nowe wasn't anything. Nowe was such a shallow, poorly written character that he just did what the plot needed him to without any personal motivation. Drakengard 2 was a mess. That said: Not all the characters in Drakengard 2 are terrible. I actually like Eris and Hanch enough that I wish they were in a better game.
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Mar 30, 2014 03:52
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Caim was the real hero of Drakengard 2.
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Mar 30, 2014 04:08
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dazat posted:Yeah, I think the only 'good' characters in Drakengard might just be the dragons (Angelus, Mikhail, Gabriella, not counting the Black Dragon/Legna). At the very least, they act much less monstrously than the majority of the humans. Legna raised a child though. And he was friends with a cool "Dragon King" guy... Then again, that child was Nowe and the guy was Nowe's "father"...
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Mar 30, 2014 04:11
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Accordion Man posted:Caim was the real hero of Drakengard 2. And Angelus. Don't you dare forget Angelus. They worked so hard to destroy the world and kill Nowe for the good of us all, but failed tragically at the last moment 
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Mar 30, 2014 06:16
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Accordion Man posted:Caim was the real hero of Drakengard 2. The cutscene where he arrives is so great. Possibly the high point of the game.
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Mar 30, 2014 07:10
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Pretty sure I've posted it before in this thread, but it's worth a repeat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlFTRLKboFo
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Mar 30, 2014 08:16
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Anatharon posted:nobody like Zero. Just extend this to everyone.
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Mar 30, 2014 08:23
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:Nowe wasn't stupid. Nowe wasn't anything. Nowe was such a shallow, poorly written character that he just did what the plot needed him to without any personal motivation. I kind of get the feeling that Nowe was intended to be a satire of the Generic jRPG Protagonist, but he kind of fell short and just ended up a Generic jRPG Protagonist. And yes, Eris and Hanch deserved a better game. Heck, everybody deserved a better game than that except Nowe and Manah (Love Interest Edition).
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Mar 30, 2014 08:48
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Ratoslov posted:I kind of get the feeling that Nowe was intended to be a satire of the Generic jRPG Protagonist, but he kind of fell short and just ended up a Generic jRPG Protagonist. Manah definitely deserved better. That may actually be one of the more frustrating things about Drakengard 2 as a whole; here's a character with an interesting background and potential for development, but who just gets shoved into the role of bland love interest to accommodate our bland hero. I think a Drakengard 2 with her as the protagonist would have been much more interesting, with her unknowingly destroying the world again. dazat fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Mar 30, 2014 |
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Mar 30, 2014 20:15
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So if anyone's still on the fence about buying Drakengard 3, Amazon's got it up for preorder if you don't want to deal with Square's lovely store. http://www.amazon.com/Drakengard-3-PlayStation/dp/B00J6DLPLK/ref=pd_ys_sf_s_468642_a2_15_p?ie=UTF8&refRID=08B11VF6YV629JCVJ5EY
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Mar 31, 2014 19:58
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I already got mine from SquareEnix's lovely store, but I can't recommend enough that people purchase the game from Amazon instead of dealing with SquareEnix's lovely store. SquareEnix's store is pretty lovely.
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Mar 31, 2014 20:05
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