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quote:"The child's right to health is more than the rights of parents to the (wrong) choice," the court wrote in its ruling. 
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Mar 28, 2014 22:29
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CottonWolf posted:It's weird to me that you lot get the chickenpox vaccine as part of your childhood set in the US. Is that standard? It's definitely not in the childhood vaccination programme in the UK. Yeah, I don't remember ever getting a vaccine in the UK. I'm pretty sure my sister (who's 14) hasn't had one either. Then again I remember getting chicken pox as a kid and other kids being forced to hang around with me so they could get it aswell. I guess such things are frowned upon these days, and it loving sucked, but I'm glad as hell I got it then and not now when it would really gently caress me up.
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Mar 28, 2014 22:39
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CottonWolf posted:It's weird to me that you lot get the chickenpox vaccine as part of your childhood set in the US. Is that standard? It's definitely not in the childhood vaccination programme in the UK. It was introduced in 1995 in the US as part of the standard vaccination regimen. First dose is usually at 12-15 months, second dose at somewhere between 4 and 6 years old. I think probably there are a lot of people who have had it but don't know they have - 1 year and 4-6 are generally pretty vaccine-heavy visits to the doctor, and both those time frames also include MMR. I think people remember "Got MMR, DTaP andabunchofothershots". The US's rate of chickenpox cases has plummeted, from 4million per year pre-vaccine to something like around 400,000 cases a year these days.
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Mar 28, 2014 23:50
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Does American law permit the Federal gov't to legislate compulsory preventative medical treatments like vaccines?
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Mar 29, 2014 02:54
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Paper Mac posted:Does American law permit the Federal gov't to legislate compulsory preventative medical treatments like vaccines? I don't think they could on an individual scale. The best they could do is make state or local vaccination requirements a prerequisite for receiving federal money, like school funding. That said, I think most school districts already require children to be immunized before attending school... unless they have a medical or religious waiver. It's that religious (or "personal beliefs") waiver that's getting seriously abused right now.
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Mar 29, 2014 03:22
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:I don't think they could on an individual scale. The best they could do is make state or local vaccination requirements a prerequisite for receiving federal money, like school funding. Yes, in California is isn't even a religious waiver, it's just "personal beliefs". Although they did recently change the law to require that you meet with a healthcare professional (defined as an MD, nurse practitioner or physician's assistant) to be counseled on the importance of vaccines before being allowed to take the waiver, which everyone seems to believe will bring the vaccination rates in our schools up. I believe there are likely some kids in my son's school who are fully vaccinated but are listed as personal belief exempted if only because of the paperwork - when I first registered my son for school, they asked me for his immunization record (which they photocopied), and then there were no less than 4 separate forms which I was supposed to fill out that amounted to me copying his immunization record by hand onto each one. The personal belief waiver was one checkbox. So basically for the paperwork issue with schools, it was easier to just pretend you don't vax than it was to provide the documentation they required. Now that you have to go to a physician, NP, or PA and have them sign a form stating they've counselled you about it, I think people who actually did vaccinate will probably avoid the copay and hassle and instead provide their immunization records. I'm not sure how much it will affect the real rate of vaccination, but it may give us a much more accurate picture of what our vaccination rates in schools look like.
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Mar 29, 2014 03:50
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PT6A posted:How can such an utter moron have made so much money? His name became synonymous with having a lot of money so he charged people to put his name on things.
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Mar 29, 2014 06:18
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Fionnoula posted:Yes, in California is isn't even a religious waiver, it's just "personal beliefs". Although they did recently change the law to require that you meet with a healthcare professional (defined as an MD, nurse practitioner or physician's assistant) to be counseled on the importance of vaccines before being allowed to take the waiver, which everyone seems to believe will bring the vaccination rates in our schools up. I believe there are likely some kids in my son's school who are fully vaccinated but are listed as personal belief exempted if only because of the paperwork - when I first registered my son for school, they asked me for his immunization record (which they photocopied), and then there were no less than 4 separate forms which I was supposed to fill out that amounted to me copying his immunization record by hand onto each one. The personal belief waiver was one checkbox. So basically for the paperwork issue with schools, it was easier to just pretend you don't vax than it was to provide the documentation they required. Now that you have to go to a physician, NP, or PA and have them sign a form stating they've counselled you about it, I think people who actually did vaccinate will probably avoid the copay and hassle and instead provide their immunization records. I'm not sure how much it will affect the real rate of vaccination, but it may give us a much more accurate picture of what our vaccination rates in schools look like. I think this is way more common than people think. I received a menactra shot before I left for college. When I transferred to a different one the original college refused to fax my immunization records to the new one and my primary care then had gone out of business. With no way to affirmatively show that I had been immunized without getting the shot again, I ended up signing the personal belief waiver just to get the dumb process over with.
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Mar 29, 2014 06:38
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CottonWolf posted:It's weird to me that you lot get the chickenpox vaccine as part of your childhood set in the US. Is that standard? It's definitely not in the childhood vaccination programme in the UK. I somehow managed to whiz through all of my cousins getting chicken pox and never getting it so everyone just figured I was already immune. When I was preparing to do my hospital rotation I had to get tested and apparently I had no antibodies at all and had to get the vaccine as an adult so there are people who end up getting it as an adult too. That being said, having kids get chicken pox because it's "kind of not that bad really!" is dumb especially if it reappears as shingles later in life which is pretty miserable.
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Mar 29, 2014 09:20
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tbp posted:Shrewd business acumen The only man in history to run a casino corporation into bankruptcy.
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Mar 29, 2014 12:26
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Rhandhali posted:That's the fetal circulating DNA test. It's super expensive and not in wide use yet as far as I know; our hospital offers it but it's a send out totally out of pocket. I don't think any health plans cover it when the triple screen is so cheap. Even with a positive feta circulating DNA test they still move on to chorionic villus sampling/amniocentisis since those are considered the definitive tests. Our CIGNA plan covered it 100%.
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Mar 29, 2014 13:45
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PT6A posted:How can such an utter moron have made so much money? Intelligence is anything but a one dimensional scale.
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Mar 29, 2014 14:19
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tbp posted:Shrewd business acumen The Donald bankrupted a casino, i view all claims regarding his business acumen as suspect. Edit:so beaten andrew smash fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Mar 29, 2014 |
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Mar 29, 2014 14:44
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PT6A posted:How can such an utter moron have made so much money? He didn't, his father did and he inherited it (he was nearly bankrupt before his father passed away due to constantly failing casino businesses). Speaking of, my uncle worked for Fred Trump for a few years in the late 1950s and early 1960s and said he was pretty good guy but that Donald was, even as a teenager, a complete shitstain.
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Mar 29, 2014 15:10
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mdemone posted:The only man in history to run a casino corporation into bankruptcy. How do you do that? Its like a license to print money!
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Mar 29, 2014 15:34
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LeJackal posted:How do you do that? Its like a license to print money! Shrewd business acumen
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Mar 29, 2014 15:46
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ThirdPartyView posted:He didn't, his father did and he inherited it (he was nearly bankrupt before his father passed away due to constantly failing casino businesses). Speaking of, my uncle worked for Fred Trump for a few years in the late 1950s and early 1960s and said he was pretty good guy but that Donald was, even as a teenager, a complete shitstain. This seems to be a trend. I guess people like Fred actually appreciate the fact they may have to work, whereas their spoiled as poo poo children are so used to everything being there that they never learn that simple value.
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Mar 29, 2014 16:36
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Paper Mac posted:Does American law permit the Federal gov't to legislate compulsory preventative medical treatments like vaccines? Haha, no. The comments on that article are pretty great though: If your kid gets immunized, why do you care what MY KID does?! Don't you know all kids are able to get vaccinated without exception?!
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Mar 29, 2014 17:32
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This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
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Fun fact: the character in The Godfather that Fredo was working with on the casino was based on Donald Trump
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Mar 29, 2014 17:38
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Speaking of school exemptions, here in PA the exemptions are medical, religious, and "philosophical/strong moral ethical conviction". We have a local "Wellness provider" who is a Chiropractor who also pays for a radio show on several of the local AM stations. I listen to his show sometimes when I am working and it is appalling. He is on 30 hours a week and begins every show telling parents that vaccines are not required, that they do more harm than good, that they are actually responsible for spreading these diseases, and that they contain dangerous ingredients including-mercury, formaldehyde, nail polish remover, and cells from aborted fetuses (among others, he rattles them off so fast, I did not catch them all). His entire show is woo, he has a remedy for every ailment that you can think of, and it is meant to peddle vitamins and supplements only available at his "Wellness Center" of course. But seriously, check this out http://www.painreleaseclinic.com/children.html "Vaccination Hazard Contrary to popular myth, the incredible proliferation of vaccines is not only not safe, but probably one of the great health hazards facing children. Just a generation ago, only a few vaccines were routinely given to children. Now up to twenty are injected before the age of two, and up to twenty-six by the time kids enter kindergarten. Children's immune systems are totally unprepared for the onslaught of organisms and dangerous excipients such as mercury that are injected into the bloodstream. Often multiple different shots are given simultaneously, posing an insurmountable assault on the defenseless immune system of a child, starting with the totally unnecessary and unjustifiable Hepatitis B shot given within hours to several days after birth. The incredible parallel meteoric rise in childhood autism, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), asthma, rheumatoid arthritis, Tourette syndrome, depression, antisocial behavior, psoriasis, eczema, colic, neurological disease such as multiple sclerosis, and diabetes with the proliferation of vaccinations is more than coincidental. We suggest that you become informed by reading literature such as the Vaccine book we have available in our office, as well as contacting national organizations such as the National Vaccine Information Center. Their phone number is 1-800-909-SHOT or check out their website at http://www.909shot.com The organization was founded by Barbara Loe Fisher, author of DPT: A Shot in the Dark, written to tell the story of how her son was permanently brain-damaged by the DPT vaccine. Children living in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania can be exempted from ALL vaccinations by merely having a parent or a guardian write a note stating that they object and refuse to have their child vaccinated according to their right as provided by Pennsylvania law for religious, or moral, or ethical reasons. The child will then be able to go to school hassle-free without ever being forced into having any vaccinations." e: Ah, here is the list of what is in a vaccine. This is what he rattles off at the beginning of the show (from his Facebook https://www.facebook.com/WinerWellnessCenter):  Sorry for the very long post. This guy in particular really irks me because he goes on and on about 'research' and that he is a 'doctor'. usbombshell fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Mar 29, 2014 |
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Mar 29, 2014 18:31
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The Anti-vaccination movement: Measles ripped my flesh
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Mar 29, 2014 18:54
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MisterBadIdea posted:The Anti-vaccination movement: Measles ripped my flesh  This anti-vaccine thing is even spreading to animals. There are now people who do not get their dogs vaccinated intentionally (not just due to money). Agggg.
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Mar 29, 2014 20:49
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Silver Nitrate posted:
This is almost as bad as people who try feeding their (carnivorous) pets vegan diets, or give them homeopathic "medicines".
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Mar 29, 2014 20:54
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usbombshell posted:We have a local "Wellness provider" who is a Chiropractor who also pays for a radio show on several of the local AM stations. I listen to his show sometimes when I am working and it is appalling. Why don't more chiropractors lose their licenses for practicing outside their area or expertise? My wife's boss is an anti-vaxxer, and has a child with autism, who is being "treated" by a snake oil chiropractor by using anti-chelation agents. The chiropractor doesn't actually provide the chemicals, but encourages the naive father to order them online. This sounds like a severe ethical violation.
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Mar 29, 2014 21:30
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sleepingbuddha posted:Why don't more chiropractors lose their licenses for practicing outside their area or expertise? My wife's boss is an anti-vaxxer, and has a child with autism, who is being "treated" by a snake oil chiropractor by using anti-chelation agents. The chiropractor doesn't actually provide the chemicals, but encourages the naive father to order them online. This sounds like a severe ethical violation. It all has to do with semantics. Any idiot off the street can create a "wellness center" and as long as they don't say things like "I am a doctor" it's perfectly legal. Herbal supplements aren't regulated. There's a gently caress ton of "alternative medicine" and "natural remedies" that have zero regulation on them. Being something like a chiropractor gives it a sense of legitimacy because of a logical fallacy whose name I forget right now. Short of it is people tend to assume that an expert on one thing is an expert on everything but there's a major failing on that. Somebody with a PhD in physics can most definitely be expected to give you good answers on physics but is not guaranteed to know anything at all about Australian spiders. The alternative medicine craze and all of this talk of "BUT ARE FREEDUMZ!!!" has let all manner of snake oil salesmen gently caress up the health of a lot of people.
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Mar 29, 2014 21:34
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Yeah, but I'm a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and could be penalized or even have my license taken away for practicing outside of my expertise. It seems like there should be more enforcement with quacks like this. Couldn't a legit MD be sanctioned for telling a patient to take something with no known benefit and a high likelihood of negative side effects? It seems like a chiropractor should be held to similar standards. I'm not antichiropractor, but there seems to be an awful lot of them that push unscientific, potentially dangerous "treatments".
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Mar 29, 2014 21:44
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I argued for anti-vax on this forum a couple of years ago. Tell the truth my wife made the decision and I trusted her on it and didn't research it heavily myself. As a result the only material I was exposed to was her sources, which gives you a very skewed viewpoint. After I argued my case on an internet forum you can imagine how much push back I received, and set about rebuilding my beliefs from the ground up. I believed in the scientific method, but if a belief or idea gets there first and can be very hard to shake, especially when you have someone you trust implicitly reinforcing it. That said, I moved on from that, but it left me at a difficult position. My kids are still unvaccinated. I've confronted my wife about it and it didn't go well, I've done as much as I can to argue for the evidence, and tried to get her to read Ben Goldacre's stuff as well, but its difficult to educate someone who doesn't want to get educated. When it came to a head a couple of years ago it got pretty heated, and basically the evident options were that she would leave me and take the kids if I tried to go over her head on it. We haven't revisited it for 2 years. It leaves me torn. There's no evidence supporting us holding off on vaccinations, but by the same token if I force the issue I could tear our family apart, which will bring considerable harm as well. I'm not really bringing this up for E/N woe is me stuff, but to paint how difficult it can be to overcome the idea of anti-vax. It endures because it strikes at the heart of that which we hold dear, and as a result successfully arguing for and convincing people of an evidence based approach has been muddied up with decades of emotional propaganda. Tbh I'll probably edit this out in a couple of days because its pretty private I guess, but I think its important to know what the inside looks like, with families that are locked into this path due to the persistence of just one half.
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Mar 29, 2014 21:47
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Maluco Marinero posted:I argued for anti-vax on this forum a couple of years ago. Tell the truth my wife made the decision and I trusted her on it and didn't research it heavily myself. As a result the only material I was exposed to was her sources, which gives you a very skewed viewpoint. After I argued my case on an internet forum you can imagine how much push back I received, and set about rebuilding my beliefs from the ground up. I believed in the scientific method, but if a belief or idea gets there first and can be very hard to shake, especially when you have someone you trust implicitly reinforcing it. Is being married more important to you than your kids staying alive? If you don't get them vaccinated you are a child murderer. I don't care how "difficult" a position you are in, you now know the correct choice to keep your children alive and you are to pussy to do anything about it because you will lose your wife and access to your children. Their survival is more important than your access to them or your marriage.
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Mar 29, 2014 22:06
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Madmarker posted:Is being married more important to you than your kids staying alive? If you don't get them vaccinated you are a child murderer. This is not true and not helpful.
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Mar 29, 2014 22:09
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sleepingbuddha posted:This is not true and not helpful. Bullshit. He puts not only his children, but other children at an increased risk of death by not giving them vaccinations.
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Mar 29, 2014 22:10
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Maluco Marinero posted:
You want healthy, not-dead children, no matter where they are. Make the right choice and get them vaccinated. Deal with the fallout of making the right decision afterwards, like you would with any morally correct course of action.
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Mar 29, 2014 22:12
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sleepingbuddha posted:Yeah, but I'm a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and could be penalized or even have my license taken away for practicing outside of my expertise. It seems like there should be more enforcement with quacks like this. Couldn't a legit MD be sanctioned for telling a patient to take something with no known benefit and a high likelihood of negative side effects? It seems like a chiropractor should be held to similar standards. You're right, there should be standards for things like "wellness centers" and stuff. The simple fact is that there isn't. That's how people get away with this stuff.
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Mar 29, 2014 22:14
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Madmarker posted:Bullshit. He puts not only his children, but other children at an increased risk of death by not giving them vaccinations. Risk, yes, but to call someone a child murderer is Godwin level of hyperbole. This goon certainly should stand up for getting this kids vaccinated, but calling him a murderer is not helpful.
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Mar 29, 2014 22:15
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Madmarker posted:Bullshit. He puts not only his children, but other children at an increased risk of death by not giving them vaccinations. To make sure I've got this right, I must destroy my family's sense of security, my ability to be a role model for my kids, my ability to support my wife in caring for those kids, and essentially remodel my entire life. Great plan. Edit: and to be clear, I don't think I'm on some sort of moral high ground here, but it is naive in the least to say that this is a decision that doesn't have the potential to completely change my family's life for the worse. Calling me a baby murderer is not going to effectively nullify that fact. Maluco Marinero fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Mar 29, 2014 |
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Mar 29, 2014 22:16
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Maluco Marinero posted:To make sure I've got this right, I must destroy my family's sense of security, my ability to be a role model for my kids, my ability to support my wife in caring for those kids, and essentially remodel my entire life. Every single one of these will be hosed if you kids get one of these diseases, anyway. Personally, I'd consider the parent who did whatever they could to safeguard the health of their children to be the morally superior one and greater role model than one who artibrarily puts them, and everyone else at risk out of faulty premises. "Why did my father not do anything to stop me getting this horrible disease?" is a much more difficult question to answer than "Why do my parents not get along anymore?", assuming they'd even be alive to ask it.
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Mar 29, 2014 22:24
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Maluco Marinero posted:To make sure I've got this right, I must destroy my family's sense of security, my ability to be a role model for my kids, my ability to support my wife in caring for those kids, and essentially remodel my entire life. Ddraig posted:Every single one of these will be hosed if you kids get one of these diseases, anyway. Wow, this was a lot better than my response. Listen to this. It seems like the real problem is that your wife is holding the entire family hostage, essentially saying 'let me potentially murder our children, or I'll divorce you and murder them personally at a later date (with homeopathy).' Don't negotiate with a terrorist, dude. LeJackal fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Mar 29, 2014 |
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Mar 29, 2014 22:25
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Consider getting them vaccinated on the sly, if you can - at least against the major stuff, especially if you live an area like Orange County where they aren't being proected by herd immunity anymore and they are at significantly higher risk.
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Mar 29, 2014 22:25
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Madmarker posted:Is being married more important to you than your kids staying alive? If you don't get them vaccinated you are a child murderer. I don't care how "difficult" a position you are in, you now know the correct choice to keep your children alive and you are to pussy to do anything about it because you will lose your wife and access to your children. Their survival is more important than your access to them or your marriage. If his wife is antivax, then there's a good chance she listens to other "alternative medicine" bullshit, too. If she leaves and takes the kids and what I just said is true, then the kids are in an even worse situation. e: I doubt a judge will give custody to the person who is endangering her children
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Mar 29, 2014 22:26
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Maluco Marinero posted:To make sure I've got this right, I must destroy my family's sense of security, my ability to be a role model for my kids, my ability to support my wife in caring for those kids, and essentially remodel my entire life. Yes, it sucks. And yes, you must. A live child raised without you is infinitely preferable to a dead one. A live child who feels insecure is infinitely preferable to a dead one. And your good feelings about being a provider, or role model, or YOUR LIFE is irrelevant. The kids come first, no matter how hard it makes your life, or unsatisfying. sleepingbuddha posted:Risk, yes, but to call someone a child murderer is Godwin level of hyperbole. This goon certainly should stand up for getting this kids vaccinated, but calling him a murderer is not helpful. Perhaps my language is strong, but I'd rather be called a hyperbolic jackass than leave any wiggle room in this about what the correct decision is. When he was ignorant, his choice was defendable, albeit incorrect. Now that he is aware of what the consequences can be of not vaccinating, he is at best being HIGHLY negligent and selfish. I consider someone willing to actively risk the life of a child because it makes them more comfortable no better than a murderer. Moatman posted:If his wife is antivax, then there's a good chance she listens to other "alternative medicine" bullshit, too. If she leaves and takes the kids and what I just said is true, then the kids are in an even worse situation. True, but vaccines are the best preventative medicine we have ever invented. Alternative health may kill them, but they will certainly have a better life with vaccines. Madmarker fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Mar 29, 2014 |
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Mar 29, 2014 22:26
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sleepingbuddha posted:I'm not antichiropractor, but there seems to be an awful lot of them that push unscientific, potentially dangerous "treatments". You absolutely should be; the existence of chiropractic as a profession as a blight on the medical landscape. sleepingbuddha posted:This is not true and not helpful.
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Mar 29, 2014 22:35
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