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Ambystoma
Oct 22, 2008

At least I looked like a popular idiot.

Pendragon posted:

I had to tell her aunt to shut up because she had a "feeling"
Oh yeah, "feelings" are the best! My mother was so convinced the baby was going to be a girl I had to get really firm with her to stop her internationally posting a box of all my frilly pink baby clothes before we'd had the 20 week scan because she "just knew" :byodame:.

So, has anyone here had a stretch and sweep? I'm booked in for one at 41 weeks and I'm feeling pretty apprehensive about it. I know I'm being kind of dumb since I'm planning on a natural unmedicated birth which will obviously hurt way more, but it's just the mental idea of having stuff "done" to you that's not so great.

Ambystoma fucked around with this message at 04:58 on Mar 22, 2014

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skeetied
Mar 10, 2011

Ambystoma posted:

So, has anyone here had a stretch and sweep? I'm booked in for one at 41 weeks and I'm feeling pretty apprehensive about it. I know I'm being kind of dumb since I'm planning on a natural unmedicated birth which will obviously hurt way more, but it's just the mental idea of having stuff "done" to you that's not so great.

I had my membranes stripped (which I think is basically the same thing) on my due date with my first son and it wasn't really a big deal. It caused some cramping during it, but my midwife had me use that as an opportunity to practice some deep breathing (and she did say she was being very thorough so it was taking a little bit). I went into labor two days later. My understanding is that it may help things along if your body is ready to go, but won't do a darned thing if it's not.

bee
Dec 17, 2008


Do you often sing or whistle just for fun?
I had one done at 39 weeks, or rather, they attempted to do one. Apparently I was shut up tight down there and so it wasn't happening. It still hurt though :( From what I remember reading about them, they don't greatly increase your chances of going into labour, but I was willing to try it anyway because being pregnant was so miserable for me.

orinth
Apr 15, 2003

NFC WEST IS THE BEST

Pendragon posted:

This is excellent advice. My wife got this from family and friends frequently. I had to tell her aunt to shut up because she had a "feeling" it would come a particular week, which happened to be at 34 weeks gestation. :doh: That upset my wife to no end.

Of course, the comeuppance was great when we delivered our twins at 37.5 weeks with the scheduled c-section. :hellyeah:

Did you get weird looks when people would ask how far along your wife is and she was a lot bigger than she "should" be? I think my wife looked around full term around 20-22 weeks (somewhere around there) and people would ask how far along she was and she would reply "20 weeks" and just leave it at that. We got a few weird looks.

Personperson
Nov 3, 2012
So I've been lurking here for awhile, my goony husband and I are expecting our first child. I'm 22 weeks and trying to put together a baby registry for our baby boy. I'm having a hard time on deciding on a car seat, stroller, and wrap because I'm really not sure what to look for. Help?

With the wrap I'm just more so concerned because with him being due at the end of July we have deal with some summer heat and then move into colder weather so I dunno if it would just be better to wait on getting a wrap until it gets cooler or just put two wraps on the registry for the different seasons since I see myself using the wraps almost all the time for awhile.

skeetied
Mar 10, 2011

Personperson posted:

So I've been lurking here for awhile, my goony husband and I are expecting our first child. I'm 22 weeks and trying to put together a baby registry for our baby boy. I'm having a hard time on deciding on a car seat, stroller, and wrap because I'm really not sure what to look for. Help?


For a car seat, we love our Chicco KeyFit. It's very easy to install and use. For a first baby, I would definitely get the Caddy stroller they sell for it. It has great resale value and it makes it super fast to tote the kid and seat around. You can figure out later on what kind of "real" stroller you want (the one we got as a shower gift ended up being a bad fit for us in the future, so I wish we had waited). For a wrap, I love the Baby K'Tan for little babies and it comes in a "Breeze" model that has mesh in some places for extra airflow.

Sockmuppet
Aug 15, 2009
Don't go overboard on wraps untill you find out if your baby actually likes them. My baby hated being carried in anything except our actual arms untill she was big enough for the positions that allowed her to face outwards and look around as much as she wanted, and then only for very short walks. Thankfully we'd borrowed our wraps from friends, so we didn't waste any money.

I second the baby ktan, it was super easy and convenient to put on and put her in place when she was a newborn (not the wraps fault that she only wanted to be held by actual arms ;) ), and it's the one we're using now, for short trips around the neighborhood.

Chickalicious
Apr 13, 2005

We are the ones we've been waiting for.
My last baby was born in the late fall and I used a moby and it was almost too warm with the combo of the heavy knit fabric and the postpartum hormonal sweats. It was a nice thing to have though. My next one is due in May, and I'm giving a ring sling a shot. Less fabric and easy to nurse in. I live in the Deep South though, so your climate may vary.

apathetic JAP
Dec 28, 2011

it tastes like pink.
Seconding the KeyFit with the accompanying stroller. The KeyFit is easy to install, it's relatively lightweight so it's not a pain to carry. The stroller is super easy to push, also relatively lightweight, and has a comfortable, adjustable handle. We got the Chicco Cortina Keyfit 30 Travel System in Miro.

skeetied
Mar 10, 2011
The Cortina is actually the stroller that we had that we hated because it was huge, heavy, and had a terrible sunshade. The KeyFit Caddy is a lot lighter and smaller since it's just for the carseat. We use an UPPAbaby Vista now and love it.

New Weave Wendy
Mar 11, 2007

Personperson posted:

So I've been lurking here for awhile, my goony husband and I are expecting our first child. I'm 22 weeks and trying to put together a baby registry for our baby boy. I'm having a hard time on deciding on a car seat, stroller, and wrap because I'm really not sure what to look for. Help?

With the wrap I'm just more so concerned because with him being due at the end of July we have deal with some summer heat and then move into colder weather so I dunno if it would just be better to wait on getting a wrap until it gets cooler or just put two wraps on the registry for the different seasons since I see myself using the wraps almost all the time for awhile.

The stretchy type wraps like the Moby are great for newborns but they don't do a great job of supporting the baby once they reach about 15 pounds, so after that you might want to look into a woven wrap or a soft sided carrier. I'd suggest going to wrapyourbaby.com to find a local babywearing group to try out some different carriers in person before you commit to anything on your registry, especially since there are a ton of different carriers and personal preference really comes into play. :)

The Moby really is crazy hot. Even with just a thin tank top underneath in early fall I was pretty sweaty after a short while. You're basically strapping an adorable squishy little heater to your body.

Ben Davis
Apr 17, 2003

I'm as clumsy as I am beautiful
I have an Ergo, a Beco Butterfly II, a wrap-conversion Girasol ring sling, and a bunch of Maya Wrap ring slings (I work on their Facebook page), and I'd also had and sold a Moby, a Rockin' Baby ring sling, and a Balboa "adjustable" sling (NEVER BUY IT). You'll find that everyone swears by some carriers and despises others, but it really does depend on what works for you. I loved everything for a different reason. Apart from the Moby and Balboa sling (which again, is horribly uncomfortable), none of them were oppressively hot. I took a ring sling and the BBII to Greece with me and did fine, and also wore the Ergo throughout his first summer. You do sweat, just like you would sweat holding a baby in your arms, but if it's high enough temperatures for it to be a safety concern, you really won't be outdoors that long.

I think the best carrier for a new learner is a single layer ring sling. If you like to get fancy and have more color choices, a wrap-conversion one is fun, but they do cost a little more. They all work the same. The only reason I personally recommend a single-layer over a double-layer is that the double ones (like the Rockin' Baby) are way harder to adjust. Ring slings are pretty easy to figure out, and they're FAST: slip on head, slide baby in, tighten.

edit: You can also use them throughout childhood--even though it's more weight on your shoulder as the baby grows older, after mine learned to walk, he was all about UP DOWN UP DOWN UP DOWN, so he only got carried for 10-30 minutes, really.

There's a FB group called The Babywearing Swap that's good for finding used carriers too, and they have a budget section as well.

Ben Davis fucked around with this message at 02:42 on Mar 24, 2014

Personperson
Nov 3, 2012
You guys are all awesome. The KeyFit seems to even be a hit with my husband and I'll take a look at both of the wrap site and the fb group in the next couple of days. Thanks guys.

Tourette Meltdown
Sep 11, 2001

Most people with Tourette Syndrome are able to hold jobs and lead full lives. But not you.

Personperson posted:

You guys are all awesome. The KeyFit seems to even be a hit with my husband and I'll take a look at both of the wrap site and the fb group in the next couple of days. Thanks guys.

Chiming in with a ~6mo boy, we have the KeyFit and Cortina and love them both - but yeah, the Cortina is huge and heavy. If you want something lighter, get the Caddy. Now that lil Meltdown is so freaking heavy (21lbs, we're not feeding him ham, wth is up with that) I usually carry him and the seat separately, but husband doesn't mind doing both. I'm just a noodle-armed lady.

Pendragon
Jun 18, 2003

HE'S WATCHING YOU

orinth posted:

Did you get weird looks when people would ask how far along your wife is and she was a lot bigger than she "should" be? I think my wife looked around full term around 20-22 weeks (somewhere around there) and people would ask how far along she was and she would reply "20 weeks" and just leave it at that. We got a few weird looks.

She was unfortunately on bedrest from week 24 until the end, so by the time she was really showing, she wasn't out enough to be seen. Plus, whenever someone asked about her pregnancy, she would always mention that she was having twins, so it kind-of headed those comments off at the pass.

Of course, then you get comments along the lines of, ":aaa: Oh my god you're having twins YOU ARE SO SCREWED you know my brother's friend's fiancee's cousin is a twin IT WILL BE SO HARD," which are always helpful.

cailleask
May 6, 2007





Has anyone had an IUD both before and after giving birth that can talk about the comparison? I had a paragard before we decided to get pregnant, and while I liked it I always had pretty bad cramping due to a little uterus. Your uterus is bigger after giving birth though, so I'm curious if I'll not have the cramping issue? Anyone have any experience with the comparison? I have 10 weeks left to decide if I want another one put back in right away!

amethystbliss
Jan 17, 2006

Third trimester ultrasound measurements tend to be really inaccurate, right? I had a scan yesterday and the tech said she already weighs 5lbs 3 oz at 31 weeks! If these measurements are right, I'm having a huge baby...

skeetied
Mar 10, 2011

amethystbliss posted:

Third trimester ultrasound measurements tend to be really inaccurate, right? I had a scan yesterday and the tech said she already weighs 5lbs 3 oz at 31 weeks! If these measurements are right, I'm having a huge baby...

Yes, they can be plus or minus two pounds. Plus, fetuses don't grow linearly, so you could have caught her in a growth spurt or just after one.

Kimmalah
Nov 14, 2005

Basically just a baby in a trenchcoat.


cailleask posted:

Has anyone had an IUD both before and after giving birth that can talk about the comparison? I had a paragard before we decided to get pregnant, and while I liked it I always had pretty bad cramping due to a little uterus. Your uterus is bigger after giving birth though, so I'm curious if I'll not have the cramping issue? Anyone have any experience with the comparison? I have 10 weeks left to decide if I want another one put back in right away!

A lot of us are childless catladies ( :v: ) but the Birth Control Megathread might be a good place to field this question. I think we've got a few mothers with IUDs in there somewhere.

Dori
Jan 14, 2005
Abducted by sheep
I had my first outing to one of the big baby stores on the weekend as I figured it'd make sense to start looking things like car seats and strollers while I am still mobile and all that and so we have an idea of what we might like in case any good second hand deals pop up.

Stroller selection here seems to be somewhat limited (thanks New Zealand) and the prices in store vs online and vs second hand vary a lot for some models and much less for others and it isn't really clear why that is or even how some strollers are different from others besides the extra $200-400 on the price tag.
I was wondering whether people would be happy to share what features they found best/most important when choosing strollers? We're quite happy to spend a little more if it means we get something that'll tick a lot of boxes and that we won't need to replace or replace lots of bits on over time. Brand recommendations are probably less useful for us than feature recommendations as many of the brands available here seem to be NZ or Australian brands. Thanks everyone for all the advice so far - lots of the recent car seat discussion has been super useful.

bee
Dec 17, 2008


Do you often sing or whistle just for fun?
Hi there, fellow antipodean :) I'm in Australia and we found that the Maclaren techno ticked a lot of our boxes. Those being a stroller that could accommodate a newborn up to toddler, was light and easily to manoeuvre and of quality construction. I also quite like that there's a window in the back of it so you can glance in and check your bub without needing to go to the front of the pram. We picked up a near-new secondhand one for $150 and we're very happy with it.

Fionnoula
May 27, 2010

Ow, quit.

Dori posted:

I had my first outing to one of the big baby stores on the weekend as I figured it'd make sense to start looking things like car seats and strollers while I am still mobile and all that and so we have an idea of what we might like in case any good second hand deals pop up.

Stroller selection here seems to be somewhat limited (thanks New Zealand) and the prices in store vs online and vs second hand vary a lot for some models and much less for others and it isn't really clear why that is or even how some strollers are different from others besides the extra $200-400 on the price tag.
I was wondering whether people would be happy to share what features they found best/most important when choosing strollers? We're quite happy to spend a little more if it means we get something that'll tick a lot of boxes and that we won't need to replace or replace lots of bits on over time. Brand recommendations are probably less useful for us than feature recommendations as many of the brands available here seem to be NZ or Australian brands. Thanks everyone for all the advice so far - lots of the recent car seat discussion has been super useful.

My big ones for the stroller were smooth steering, height adjustment for the parents - my husband and I are taller than average height for our country and a lot of strollers left us hunched over to reach the handle, easy to fold (we drive an SUV so we were unconcerned with how small it folded; depending on how much trunk space you're working with, you might want to keep that in mind), longevity of use, and the cargo basket being useful. A lot of the cargo baskets underneath seem quite roomy, but there's an access problem - grab a diaper bag off the shelf that's stuffed with tissue paper to make it bulky, stick your purse in the spot where the baby sits in the stroller, and then see whether you can actually get the diaper bag in and out of the cargo basket without removing the "baby" from the stroller.

As for your car seat, I would advise against buying second hand other than from a very close friend who can be trusted about whether it has been in an accident or not. And check expiration dates.

Dori
Jan 14, 2005
Abducted by sheep
Thanks. The hint re testing the storage is a supper useful idea. Lots of stores here actually have bean babies (9k baby shaped pillows - they are freaky as hell) so should be easy to test that. :)

While I am thinking of it what are peoples' thoughts re choosing a stoller which can fit the infant car seat capsule so you don't have to move baby from one to the other? All our friends here who have had little ones recently recommend hiring the capsule for the first 6 months or so as this is very affordable and it's not needed for long after that anyway so buying isn't a great deal (cheapest new is about $200 whereas hire incl 1x car base is $50/6 month). But that then does add the extra question of whether we should look at strollers which can have the capsule attachments for the commonly available brands to hire or whether it'll be easy enough to move baby between the capsule and stroller.

Fionnoula
May 27, 2010

Ow, quit.

Dori posted:

Thanks. The hint re testing the storage is a supper useful idea. Lots of stores here actually have bean babies (9k baby shaped pillows - they are freaky as hell) so should be easy to test that. :)

While I am thinking of it what are peoples' thoughts re choosing a stoller which can fit the infant car seat capsule so you don't have to move baby from one to the other? All our friends here who have had little ones recently recommend hiring the capsule for the first 6 months or so as this is very affordable and it's not needed for long after that anyway so buying isn't a great deal (cheapest new is about $200 whereas hire incl 1x car base is $50/6 month). But that then does add the extra question of whether we should look at strollers which can have the capsule attachments for the commonly available brands to hire or whether it'll be easy enough to move baby between the capsule and stroller.

We were actually gifted a stroller base that was only for use with the capsule. It was just a frame with wheels and a cargo basket (no seat at all) that the capsule snapped into. I really loved it while he was small enough for the capsule. I should have held off on buying the big stroller until he was ready for it, but my grandmother was hotshit to buy it because she considers the stroller to be HER thing to buy and she would not stop asking, so I picked one and she bought it before he was even born, then I didn't use it for the first year until he outgrew his capsule. By the time I started using it there were newer strollers on the market that better ticked all my boxes and I wished I had held out. I wasn't terribly unhappy with what I had, I just think I would have been happier with something else.

But like all things baby, people have different lifestyles and the way I did it won't have worked for others. I know people who just HATED removing the capsule from their cars and would not have been happy with the setup I had going.

New Weave Wendy
Mar 11, 2007
I like the stroller we have (the Chicco Cortina if anyone is curious), and it has the ability to click the car seat into it, but I have used that feature exactly once. Since the stroller fully reclines to accommodate even the youngest of babies, I always just took my daughter out of the car seat when we had to transfer her from car to stroller. I have found it a lot more convenient to wear her when we are out and about, and mostly just use the stroller for walking around the park/neighborhood and stuff like that.

kirsty
Apr 24, 2007
Too lazy and too broke

Dori posted:

Thanks. The hint re testing the storage is a supper useful idea. Lots of stores here actually have bean babies (9k baby shaped pillows - they are freaky as hell) so should be easy to test that. :)

While I am thinking of it what are peoples' thoughts re choosing a stoller which can fit the infant car seat capsule so you don't have to move baby from one to the other? All our friends here who have had little ones recently recommend hiring the capsule for the first 6 months or so as this is very affordable and it's not needed for long after that anyway so buying isn't a great deal (cheapest new is about $200 whereas hire incl 1x car base is $50/6 month). But that then does add the extra question of whether we should look at strollers which can have the capsule attachments for the commonly available brands to hire or whether it'll be easy enough to move baby between the capsule and stroller.

Hey fellow kiwi goon!

I was completely overwhelmed by stroller options before I had my first kid - my thinking was that I had NO IDEA what life was going to be like with a baby, so how would I know what features would be more useful? For example, would I prefer something light and compact for pushing up Wellington hills, or something heavier with more storage and features for using in town? I was slightly freaked out by the decision and may have got a little hormonal and irrational about the whole thing.

So we ended up hiring a capsule and the "snap and go" wheels for about $100 for 6 months, and by the time that was up I had a much better idea of what I wanted. The capsule worked great, and we've done the same for my second baby (born last Thursday :) )

visuvius
Sep 24, 2007
sta da moor
Baby is 5 weeks old tomorrow. Momma's nipple are about to fall off.

She was hoping to breastfeed for 3 months or longer but we're realizing that might be difficult. Can we supplement the breastfeeding with formula this early or do we need to wait for at least the 2 month or preferably three month mark?

Keep in mind, she is using lanolin and trying all sorts of methods to make his latch pain free. Its not his latch so much as the little sumbitch is hungry all the time and that nipple has some serious miles on it. Also, the breastpump is out because besides being creepy, she finds it to be painful and generally difficult even at the lowest setting.

Tourette Meltdown
Sep 11, 2001

Most people with Tourette Syndrome are able to hold jobs and lead full lives. But not you.

visuvius posted:

Baby is 5 weeks old tomorrow. Momma's nipple are about to fall off.

She was hoping to breastfeed for 3 months or longer but we're realizing that might be difficult. Can we supplement the breastfeeding with formula this early or do we need to wait for at least the 2 month or preferably three month mark?

Keep in mind, she is using lanolin and trying all sorts of methods to make his latch pain free. Its not his latch so much as the little sumbitch is hungry all the time and that nipple has some serious miles on it. Also, the breastpump is out because besides being creepy, she finds it to be painful and generally difficult even at the lowest setting.

Breastfeeding was really shockingly horrible for me til about 6/7 weeks, then just slightly miserable until about 12, and now (at ~6 months), it's like second nature. It does get better! It seems like it won't ever stop hurting, but it does. It seems like your baby will always want to nurse every hour, for an hour, for the next 18 years, but it really does get better. She needs to talk to a lactation consultant if she can, multiple times if needed, til y'all figure out what's going wrong. At least talk to someone before y'all supplement, that can permanently wreck her supply. A 5-week old baby is still figuring out how to eat, so be patient just a little longer.

If she plans on returning to work/starting to work/whatever, hopefully she can come around on the pump. They're not creepy (no more than a baby is...) but they can definitely be uncomfortable in the early days and if the flange is the wrong size. Maybe look into that, too. And give her all the support she can stand! Breastfeeding is hard work.

Seven for a Secret
Apr 5, 2009

visuvius posted:

Baby is 5 weeks old tomorrow. Momma's nipple are about to fall off.

She was hoping to breastfeed for 3 months or longer but we're realizing that might be difficult. Can we supplement the breastfeeding with formula this early or do we need to wait for at least the 2 month or preferably three month mark?

Keep in mind, she is using lanolin and trying all sorts of methods to make his latch pain free. Its not his latch so much as the little sumbitch is hungry all the time and that nipple has some serious miles on it. Also, the breastpump is out because besides being creepy, she finds it to be painful and generally difficult even at the lowest setting.

I had this problem too (nipples were all scabby, every feeding was agonizing, and feedings were constant) and what solved it for me was getting a nipple shield. I wore it over my nipple, the baby nursed through it, and it let me heal up and stop hurting. You're supposed to try to stop using it again pretty quickly, but I used it exclusively until my baby was 6 months or so and now she can nurse with or without it easily and completely painlessly. I got mine from a lactation consultant, who helped me make sure I was using it right and my baby was getting enough milk through it.

Seven for a Secret fucked around with this message at 13:35 on Mar 31, 2014

Sockmuppet
Aug 15, 2009
You can check to see if the symptoms of thrush sounds familiar, but if it's just soreness and no latch issues or thrush, then it's really just a matter of pushing through it. It took around 1,5-2 months for us as well before my nipples grew fully accustomed to their new job, and ever since it's been easy peasy. They toughen up amazingly well.

What helped me the most was expressing a little bit of milk as an ointment after nursing, and then airdrying them whenever I could. The lanolin was great when I had cracks, but for just general soreness milk and airdrying did the trick for me. I also found that creative cursing helped with the initial toecurling latch-pain ;) Baby can't understand anyway, so go to town.

Good luck! Hopefully painfree nursing is just around the corner :)

Sockmuppet fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Mar 31, 2014

skeetied
Mar 10, 2011
Her doctor can give her a prescription for all-purpose nipple ointment as well, which worked a lot better than lanolin for me at relieving the pain. If she does want to breastfeed long-term, it's best to try to stick it out at this point because introducing a supplement could really impact her supply and her ability to breastfeed in the future. I second (third? whatever) speaking to a lactation consultant as soon as possible. Pumping shouldn't hurt, so hopefully the LC can point her in the right direction with what's going wrong there too. In my experience, a manual pump can be the gentlest option since she can completely control the amount of suction to her own comfort.

Ben Davis
Apr 17, 2003

I'm as clumsy as I am beautiful
All-purpose nipple ointment is seriously the poo poo. The pain relief was fantastic.

Ceridwen
Dec 11, 2004
Of course... If the Jell-O gets moldy, the whole thing should be set aflame.

Regarding IUD pre and post pregnancy:
I used the Mirena for 6.5 years before having my second one removed to have a baby. Got my third one inserted 6 weeks post baby.

I spotted longer with the post baby one but insertion was nothing compared to the ones before pregnancy. Generally less crampiness but it's not totally gone.

visuvius
Sep 24, 2007
sta da moor
Thanks ya'll. Went out and got a Madela nipple shield and we'll ask about the ointment.

skeetied
Mar 10, 2011

visuvius posted:

Thanks ya'll. Went out and got a Madela nipple shield and we'll ask about the ointment.

Please have your wife see a lactation consultant before using a nipple shield. Improper use can also negatively impact her milk supply, so they should ideally only be used with an LC's support and guidance.

Ambystoma
Oct 22, 2008

At least I looked like a popular idiot.
Hey guys - wow what a crazy ride the last 10 days have been! I was booked in at a family birth centre attached to a maternity hospital hoping for a drug free waterbirth but, well, the best laid schemes etc etc.

Here's my brand new goonbaby, born via emergency c-section after 7 hours oxytocin induced labour since his heart rate was slowing with the contractions (I made it for 3 hours using encouragement and a birthing ball to deal with the pain before I cracked and got the epidural) and 24 hours spotty labour before that, after my waters broke.



He was 9lbs 1oz and 54.5cm long, has a shitload of hair and is generally awesome.

Thanks so much to everyone for all the great advice so far - I'm really glad to have a resource like this.

Plus we hit this milestone the other day:
:woop: :woop:.

Ambystoma fucked around with this message at 04:49 on Apr 3, 2014

nyerf
Feb 12, 2010

An elephant never forgets...TO KILL!
What's that screencap from? Is it a breastfeeding app tracker or something?

Ambystoma
Oct 22, 2008

At least I looked like a popular idiot.
It's from Sprout - it's amazing, it tracks feeds, nappies, doctors visits - everything.

poopinmymouth
Mar 2, 2005

PROUD 2 B AMERICAN (these colors don't run)
Is the pregnancy IRC room gone? I tried connecting to #pregnancythread on synirc and was the only one there.

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bamzilla
Jan 13, 2005

All butt since 2012.


uh, I think that's been gone for years.

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