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Discendo Vox posted:This doesn't actually disprove the social construction argument- and more importantly, the DSM doesn't rely on etiology, hence the problems of constructed, biased, and overdiagnosed mental disease, which persist into the present day. I mean, there's a reason we have the You clueless oval office. The overdiagnosis of mental illness is not about social constructions it's about laypeople misunderstanding illnesses. And as someone said, you have  because people self-diagnose without actually understanding what the criteria are for, which I already addressed.If you raised the question "are there mental illnesses which are primarily social construct" then yes, a lot of people would agree that the personality disorder spectrum is essentially a semantic line in the sand to seperate and attempt to address a grouping of developmentally caused issues with self expression and emotional regulation. How we perceive these conditions and how we treat them, as well as societies view on them, are social constructs. That they are real conditions that you can handily whip up an fMRI for and see a significant difference in normal neurological behaviour is not a matter of question, nor is it something that will change over time.
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Mar 30, 2014 20:33
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djw175 posted:We have that because idiots on the internet self diagnose. It's not about people with actual diagnosed Aspergers. And so do their parents, teachers and social workers, that's the point.
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Mar 30, 2014 20:33
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And that baby grew up to be Ray Lewis. (Seriously, that's his favorite Bible passage.)
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Mar 30, 2014 20:38
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Spangly A posted:You clueless oval office. The overdiagnosis of mental illness is not about social constructions it's about laypeople misunderstanding illnesses. And as someone said, you have I'm not arguing that there aren't etiologically valid disease definitions, but that many psychiatric diagnostic structures aren't reliant on such rigorous standards. is a great example of this- it's not just self-diagnosis, but medical diagnosis, that is problematic. The entire diagnostic structure for the autism spectrum is heavily disputed. I don't think there's been a version of the DSM that hasn't had task force members attack the entire end product immediately upon release.Separately, social construction remains the means by which a neurological abnormality is defined as a disease, even for the real concrete stuff. Please, review the earlier posts on the social construction side. Neither of us is arguing mental disease is a thing that doesn't exist. Both the social construction and the mechanistic explanations can be right. And c'mon, starting off with "clueless oval office" is just going to enflame the discourse. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Mar 30, 2014 |
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Mar 30, 2014 20:52
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Keep proving that redtext right, Vox.
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Mar 30, 2014 20:54
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Discendo Vox posted:I'm not arguing that there aren't etiologically valid disease definitions, but that many psychiatric diagnostic structures aren't reliant on such rigorous standards. My apologies, I thought you were agreeing with the poster earlier who argued that depression, bipolar and ADHD (all of which have extremely testable neurological symptoms and aren't developmental) could easily be argued to be culturally constructed, which is ridiculous and in line with "the crazy is inside the thread". Either way it was uncalled for. The DSM 5 definition for autism spectrum is extremely clear. Does the child have significant developmental delay with no obvious traumatic or genetic cause? autism. We talk about social construction being the definition but that starts to veer into territory where it's easily possible to actually pull off a rare slippery slope argument, and thus make the idea a fallacy of itself. ADHD is the body overproducing melatonin to the point where social function is not possible. The social construct is in the naming, the diagnosis, and the line we draw with "social function". But wherever you point out the socialised aspects, it's still a hormonal problem. Which makes it quite funny that "it's just hormones" is seen as not a problem to these people, I think. Also the DSM is a bit poo poo in general, I'm not totally familiar with its long line of controversy because we don't use it in Europe (for the reasons of it being poo poo and politically problematic).
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Mar 30, 2014 20:59
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Spangly A, you're doing it wrong. You're supposed to smugpost about my red text, not respond to the substance of my post! We're not supposed to discuss ideas and potentially come to a consensus on things, what kind of forum do you think this is?! You should study Small Frozen Thing's posts, they'll show you how things get done around here. For what it's worth, I don't think anyone was saying the diseases you mention don't physically exist, or that ADHD was a Tool of the Oppressor. Even ArchangeI's post was saying that mental illnesses are "at least in part cultural constructs". That's a much weaker claim. Where are you and what does your care system use? All I'm familiar with is the DSM, which I approach from a scientific communication standpoint, so all I see are the massive gap between the etiology and the diagnostic practice. That said, I've got it here and I think you're being too kind to the standards. Autism spectrum (though much tighter than previous definitions) still has a 5-part test, most of the elements of which require subjective evaluations. The ADHD entry includes an explicit refusal to acknowledge a single causal route: DSM posted:No biological marker is diagnostic for ADHD. As a group, compared with peers, children with ADHD display increased slow wave electroencephalograms, reduced total brain volume on magnetic resonance imaging, and possibly a delay in posterior to anterior cortical maturation, but these findings are not diagnostic. In the uncommon cases where there is a known genetic cause, the ADHD presentation should still be diagnosed. It's not that I don't think we're making progress on studying these diseases and getting the practice to match the research, but here in the states at least, there's still lightyears to go before we can move away from heavily subjective diagnostic elements (and that's not touching the  that is the entries with "gender" in the title).To move back toward the topic, I think the religious belief in an absolutely concrete diagnostic system, and an absolute rejection of mental health research, represent two common internet forward fun camps. Which group do people see more often, and which do folks find more obnoxious? Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Mar 30, 2014 |
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Mar 30, 2014 21:26
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Spangly A posted:My apologies, I thought you were agreeing with the poster earlier who argued that depression, bipolar and ADHD (all of which have extremely testable neurological symptoms and aren't developmental) could easily be argued to be culturally constructed, which is ridiculous and in line with "the crazy is inside the thread". Either way it was uncalled for. I said that these illnesses exist within a certain cultural context and are constructed to be recognizable as illnesses. You know perfectly well that what is and isn't a mental illness has changed over the years and will continue to change. These may well be based on actual observation, but that does not mean that there isn't a construction process involved in determining what is and isn't normal bodily function. If MRI scans show significant differences between the brains of homosexuals and straight people of the same gender, does that mean that homosexuality is (as it was for so long) a mental disease that people need to be cured of? Why is the notion that you have been born in the body of the wrong gender worthy of support while the notion that you were born in the body of the wrong race a sign for mental instability? In the same vein, few people die of old age nowadays, because most of what used to be called death by old age is now a heart attack or other organ failure.
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Mar 30, 2014 21:32
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SedanChair posted:Eh, teachers and social workers think they're mental health professionals because they can read the index of the DSM. It's kind of a real thing. If there is a real problem, it's either going to be the parents or the teachers who notice first. Good thing neither one can prescribe drugs, though.
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Mar 31, 2014 02:05
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Spangly A posted:That post would get you laughed out of every psychiatry department, because we can literally see the parts of the brain not working as they do in healthy persons with a direct causative effect. Please don't bring some cultural relativity bullshit argument into this, it makes you look ignorant. It would also get him laughed out of every history department, because any study of history allows for the state of science at the time. It'd get you laughed out of one deeply peculiar history department, perhaps.
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Mar 31, 2014 02:08
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VideoTapir posted:If there is a real problem, it's either going to be the parents or the teachers who notice first. Good thing neither one can prescribe drugs, though. Yeah but they can guide them towards the shittiest, most overworked community mental health clinics, where burnouts and amateurs will slowly assemble a case history to which a doctor will later refer.
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Mar 31, 2014 02:13
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SedanChair posted:Yeah but they can guide them towards the shittiest, most overworked community mental health clinics, where burnouts and amateurs will slowly assemble a case history to which a doctor will later refer. Hah...so a better-funded mental-health system could result in fewer diagnoses.
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Mar 31, 2014 03:02
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SedanChair posted:And so do their parents, teachers and social workers, that's the point. You are talking out of your rear end here. I'm sure it's different in every state, but teachers don't diagnose kids. Teachers can raise behavioral issues to parents and administrators. The parents/administrators then decide on courses of action after consulting with guidance counselors who, more and more often, have mental health training. A lot of times they will also consult with doctors and other mental health professionals. Also, are you a teacher? After working with a bunch of kids, it becomes very very easy to spot which ones have ADD versus ones who are run-of-the-mill kids. Now, you may take issue with people choosing to drug kids instead of trying to support more fluid learning styles in schools, but the diagnosis step is not actually the main problem. The main problem is lack of education funding leading to a lack of support for teachers working with students who require more human interaction/monitoring than other students. Most teachers I know don't just want to drug kids. They would like to spend more time with the kids that need it. The problem that comes up is that schools just don't have the resources to do that, and so a lot of times that decision gets tossed back to parents who also don't have the time or resources to home school their kid. So the, sometimes hasty, decision that's made is to put the kid on medication to try and force them through the same educational system as everyone else. I think the medication is good in very extreme cases, but in my own experience working with kids who have ADD, a lot of them just need a different teaching style with a teacher who understands and can sympathize with how their brain works. I would characterize ADD as being over-pathologized, but there is a very fundamental difference in how the brain works in the students that have it. I think it is worth recognizing that their brains work differently so that different teaching strategies can be used with them. If you stop diagnosing kids then it's just going to lead to kids being expelled from schools for behavioral issues that arise instead of treating those kids with respect and dignity. This horse poo poo about "back in my day kids were just kids, we didn't have any of this nonsense..." is really infuriating to me as a teacher. Those kids did exist back in your day. They were expelled from schools for behavioral issues, they may have turned to abusing drugs in order to try to manage symptoms of mental illness, may have committed suicide due to untreated mental illness, been bullied by students and teachers for being different, dropped out of school, failed out of a few years of school due to not being able to fit into an educational system not designed for them, etc. ErIog fucked around with this message at 03:30 on Mar 31, 2014 |
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Mar 31, 2014 03:23
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SedanChair posted:Yeah but they can guide them towards the shittiest, most overworked community mental health clinics, where burnouts and amateurs will slowly assemble a case history to which a doctor will later refer. Great, now I'm depressed. 
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Mar 31, 2014 03:32
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Who are you talking to? We don't seem to disagree about anything. You're describing a process by which certain kids are selected by the system for additional scrutiny. I already made reference to it.
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Mar 31, 2014 03:43
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SedanChair posted:Who are you talking to? We don't seem to disagree about anything. You're describing a process by which certain kids are selected by the system for additional scrutiny. I already made reference to it. I was talking to what you said and also responding to that dumb image. I can't really tell what your position is in detail since you've not really posted anything beyond a handful of short things. From those short posts it seemed to me like you were perpetuating some variant of "the man's just trying to drug kids with  for being kids, we're pathologizing childhood!" I readily admit that's a straw man, and I may have overreacted.I was responding to that first assertion you made of teachers overdiagnosing ADD which you pulled back from after someone else called you on it too. So in light of you pulling back from that position my post probably does seem strange, but it makes sense in the context of you making your initial assertion.
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Mar 31, 2014 04:06
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ErIog posted:
If there were systematic ways to get ADD people to use their hyper-focused moments to productive ends, I don't think we'd even need to see moderate cases of it as a problem.
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Mar 31, 2014 04:14
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CheesyDog posted:The only people who say "the flu shot gave me the flu" are people who have never had the flu and mistake their case of the sniffles for it. There's probably a huge confirmation bias and/or placebo effect happening as well.
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Mar 31, 2014 04:14
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ErIog posted:I was talking to what you said and also responding to that dumb image. I can't really tell what your position is in detail since you've not really posted anything beyond a handful of short things. From those short posts it seemed to me like you were perpetuating some variant of "the man's just trying to drug kids with My point was always "people who are not professionals will take it upon themselves to label others with a diagnosis." I can't do anything about phantasms you've conjured and attributed to me. So my "pulling back" from that imaginary position is, similarly, something you've hallucinated.
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Mar 31, 2014 04:18
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Nevvy Z posted:There's probably a huge confirmation bias and/or placebo effect happening as well. And of course, if the flu shot doesn't work, or if they'd already been exposed but just weren't showing symptoms yet, it's pretty easy to attribute that to the shot rather than to, you know, the flu going around.
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Mar 31, 2014 04:20
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SedanChair posted:My point was always "people who are not professionals will take it upon themselves to label others with a diagnosis." I can't do anything about phantasms you've conjured and attributed to me. So my "pulling back" from that imaginary position is, similarly, something you've hallucinated. Then you don't actually agree with my post since the entire point was to make clear that "people who are professionals" actually are consulted. The ideas you were spouting about teachers diagnosing kids was rightly called out, someone else pointed out the same thing I pointed out, and then you pulled back to "Well, professionals are consulted, but those professionals are overworked and so can't be trusted." Do you have evidence to back up your claim that kids are being diagnosed by people who are not professionals?
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Mar 31, 2014 04:52
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ErIog posted:Do you have evidence to back up your claim that kids are being diagnosed by people who are not professionals? You said so yourself. quote:Also, are you a teacher? After working with a bunch of kids, it becomes very very easy to spot which ones have ADD versus ones who are run-of-the-mill kids. You think you're qualified to diagnose kids as having ADD. Of course you don't think that it's a proper clinical diagnosis, and it's not; it's exactly as rigorous as shut-ins diagnosing themselves with autism by reading Wikipedia. You're the person who plants this seed, some hypothetical disorder to be confirmed by a professional at a later date. Then this happens (again, your words): quote:Most teachers I know don't just want to drug kids. They would like to spend more time with the kids that need it. The problem that comes up is that schools just don't have the resources to do that, and so a lot of times that decision gets tossed back to parents who also don't have the time or resources to home school their kid. So the, sometimes hasty, decision that's made is to put the kid on medication to try and force them through the same educational system as everyone else. I think the medication is good in very extreme cases, but in my own experience working with kids who have ADD, a lot of them just need a different teaching style with a teacher who understands and can sympathize with how their brain works. So we both seem to be describing a system in which non-professionals like you and me have undue influence on the treatment children end up receiving. Of course a doctor has to actually write the psych eval and prescribe the meds, but we both know how long that consult takes and how much control the kid's support system has over the presentation of information. You admit that kids are drugged because it is a shortcut and makes teaching easier. About what exactly do we disagree?
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Mar 31, 2014 05:20
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Nevvy Z posted:There's probably a huge confirmation bias and/or placebo effect happening as well. As much as I could see it as being a placebo, it could also just have been side effects of the vaccine. This blog post has some good details on the flu vaccine and is geared to address myths and does touch on that issue. On top of the possibility that they were already sick when they got the vaccine, they may have also just gotten a strain they vaccine was not geared against or just had crap luck and got one they were vaccinated against anyway. I wish that vaccines were 100% effective, but they are not and some people just have poo poo luck.
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Mar 31, 2014 05:44
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SedanChair posted:About what exactly do we disagree? While I do not think teachers are qualified to make official diagnoses and recommend courses of treatment, I do think they know quite a lot about the children they're teaching. You seem to think their input is not worthwhile somehow, and you're painting this picture of teachers railroading kids towards drugs that you actually have not given any evidence for. It runs counter to what I know of the system from my own experience seeing and hearing about many qualified professionals being involved along with the parents. You are the one that is making the claim that teachers are railroading kids towards ADD drugs. Do you have evidence that documents a process similar to what you're describing? Also, you seem to be reacting really really strongly to the idea that anyone is making any kind of judgement calls at all about student behavior. I will reiterate that I think diagnosis of things like this is an important part of making sure these kids don't fall through the cracks. We both agree that medication shouldn't always be the answer, but you seem to disagree with the idea of any kind of diagnosis at all. My point is that without some kind of diagnosis there can be no real forward movement on helping those kids. As a society we spent many years not diagnosing those kids. Those kids weren't better for it. They were mostly treated very poorly by an educational system designed very aggressively for people who are not like them. Diagnosis, the recognition that there are kids with brains that work differently, is the first step toward a real solution. The point where our opinions deviate is that I think diagnosis is necessary and the current processes for it are mostly okay, but I disagree with some of the current solutions that are widely in use today. You seem to think that the diagnosis itself is the problem. You're equating an ADD diagnosis with having pills prescribed when that's not the only solution available and not necessarily used in every case. ErIog fucked around with this message at 05:49 on Mar 31, 2014 |
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Mar 31, 2014 05:47
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SedanChair posted:So we both seem to be describing a system in which non-professionals like you and me have undue influence on the treatment children end up receiving. Of course a doctor has to actually write the psych eval and prescribe the meds, but we both know how long that consult takes and how much control the kid's support system has over the presentation of information. You admit that kids are drugged because it is a shortcut and makes teaching easier. About what exactly do we disagree? But here is the question. Do we ignore mental health issues by calling them fake as that stupid infographic you seem to be half-supporting argues? No one is going to argue that our mental health system is perfect or even approaches good for the poor, but the answer cannot just be to just call them "childhood." If anything, we have a significant under diagnosis of pretty much all mental health disorders more serious than ADD/ADHD. I've worked with a lot of social workers, not a single one of them has "diagnosed" anyone with anything. They send them to psychiatrists who do the diagnosis. There is nothing wrong with that. Yes, the system they get referred into sucks, that is a real issue. The solution is to fix the mental health care system, not just ignore possible mental health symptoms.
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Mar 31, 2014 06:15
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nm posted:But here is the question. Do we ignore mental health issues by calling them fake as that stupid infographic you seem to be half-supporting argues? Strudel Man fucked around with this message at 08:42 on Mar 31, 2014 |
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Mar 31, 2014 08:39
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Strudel Man posted:I think a big part of the answer probably should be to allow children to develop without chemical intervention except in cases where it's clearly necessary. I think it's very unlikely that 10% of male children are mentally ill enough to require amphetamines. Yes, I agree we should do necessary things when they are necessary *nods sagely* I'm going to go even farther out on a limb here and say good things are good, and bad things are bad. We should do more of the good things and less of the bad things. Discuss.
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Mar 31, 2014 08:44
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VitalSigns posted:Yes, I agree we should do necessary things when they are necessary *nods sagely* So many of the signs of ADHD sound like children reacting to an increasingly routinized and joyless process of schooling, particularly as we seem to be in the process of cutting out arts and music and even sports to better focus the 'educational essentials.' I have three younger brothers, and the workload that I've seen them given just in grade school fairly stuns me. I'll admit that it bothers me that we are tending to view it as a problem in the child when they don't deal well with that system, rather than a problem in the system itself. Maybe that's me being foolish and sentimental, I don't know. Strudel Man fucked around with this message at 09:02 on Mar 31, 2014 |
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Mar 31, 2014 08:57
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Strudel Man posted:So many of the signs of ADHD sound like children reacting to an increasingly routinized and joyless process of schooling, particularly as we seem to be in the process of cutting out arts and music and even sports to better focus the 'educational essentials.' As someone who's had ADD my entire life but only got it treated in adulthood, are you stupid? Arts, music, and sports are all terrible subjects for a ADD sufferer, because they all require lots of focused practice.
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Mar 31, 2014 09:40
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Ratoslov posted:As someone who's had ADD my entire life but only got it treated in adulthood, are you stupid? Arts, music, and sports are all terrible subjects for a ADD sufferer, because they all require lots of focused practice. If that's true, why have so many professional baseball players been diagnosed with ADD?
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Mar 31, 2014 10:17
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Interpreting the cause of ADD/ADHD is so incredibly difficult because of how many incorrect diagnosis exist. I feel like too many people who jump to the "ADD is just kids being kids!" only hear about the incorrect diagnosis. And then in turn people accuse them of claiming ADD doesn't exist, which wasn't the intent.
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Mar 31, 2014 10:18
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:If that's true, why have so many professional baseball players been diagnosed with ADD? This is a joke post, right? Or are you actually searching for an answer? \/ what he's getting at is that MLB players are purposely misdiagnosed so they can take Adderall aBagorn fucked around with this message at 11:43 on Mar 31, 2014 |
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Mar 31, 2014 11:20
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:If that's true, why have so many professional baseball players been diagnosed with ADD?  All I know is, any time I tried to settle down and practice, I got distracted and frustrated and couldn't focus.
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Mar 31, 2014 11:20
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aBagorn posted:This is a joke post, right? Or are you actually searching for an answer? It's meant as a joke. I did find some articles that tried to explain that it's not actually higher than the average. I find that explanation a little suspect as I don't expect professional athletes to be a microcosm of the greater population. For example, I'm guessing that paraplegics are underrepresented in most sports, similarly, in a sport that requires a lot of focus and attention, I'd expect to see few people with ADHD. Prior to these athletes getting medication, how often were they missing a catch because they were distracted by a butterfly or an unusual looking cloud? But seriously, I'm not at all qualified to make a judgment, I definitely may not understand the big picture. Ratoslov posted:
I'm glad to hear that you've had good results with medication as an adult. I had a friend who was a very bad fit in the Navy, after getting out he was diagnosed with ADD. He's still struggling to get his life on course but now he knows that he didn't struggle with the Navy because he was a "shitbag," he struggled because of an undiagnosed medical issue. What I'm trying to say is, I'm sorry if my joke came across as a put-down. A mental health issue isn't a moral failure.
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Mar 31, 2014 11:50
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If baseball players aren't short, why are so many of them prescribed Human Growth Hormone?
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Mar 31, 2014 13:27
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Ratoslov posted:As someone who's had ADD my entire life but only got it treated in adulthood, are you stupid? Arts, music, and sports are all terrible subjects for a ADD sufferer, because they all require lots of focused practice. I'll agree that those subjects as they get taught in school are useless for anyone with ADD, but finding a hobby from that group that the child enjoys can actually help them to apply focus in other areas. It's not a panacea but it's seen good use.
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Mar 31, 2014 14:42
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nm posted:But here is the question. Do we ignore mental health issues by calling them fake as that stupid infographic you seem to be half-supporting argues? The infographic is dumb, but it's also dumb to behave as though there's something worth saving in the dregs of clinical psychiatric practice. It's profoundly unethical to prescribe mind-altering medications to kids who in many cases are reacting in perfectly healthy ways to real changes in their lives (abuse, neglect, homelessness, LGBT targeting etc). It's dumb to call mental health issues "childhood" but it in many cases is equally dumb to call them disorders.
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Mar 31, 2014 17:23
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Seriously? You're gonna argue that all psychiatric medication is useless or unethical? VVV "It's also dumb to behave as though there's something worth saving in the dregs of clinical psychiatric practice." Sort of implies he thinks all psychiatric practices are bad in some way. RagnarokAngel fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Mar 31, 2014 |
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Mar 31, 2014 17:33
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I don't think anyone is making categorical claims here- on both sides folks are being careful to use "in most cases" or " often at least partly". When you rush to angerpost dear goons, please be sure you know what you're angryposting about.
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Mar 31, 2014 17:36
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Can somebody find a dumb email forward or post to end this nonsense?
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