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Ddraig posted:I know her and she's a sensible girl, so chances are good she's going to get it when she's old enough to not need his consent (or maybe get it on the sly, perhaps). It' still a loving stupid reason for her to not get a vaccine which can help prevent cervical cancer because her father can't imagine her ever having sex (or simply not wanting to think about it) Is there a strict age of consent for immunization over there in the UK? A quick googling indicates that "parental involvement is preferred" which to my cynical healthcare worker POV means "try to get it so they don't sue you later". Over here in Canada it's more like if they can come to you on their own and indicate that they are making an informed decision of their own will then they count as a Mature Minor and their consent takes precedence over all others, even if it means they don't want it. You can always tell her to call a clinic herself and check to see if it works that way over there. It's her body after all and etc. you know the deal.
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Mar 30, 2014 22:29
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I have several anti-vax nutballs in my immediate family, including my mother who sent me to live in a military school dorm with 500 other people with a religious exemption from the booster. I don't know what to do when the "debate" devolves into being told ALL doctors who support vaccination are bought and not to bother talking statistics because those are always twisted by the big bad THEY. Do I give up? It feels hopeless but they have put my life at risk and now my new nephew's life and I can't stop getting real mad about it.
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Mar 31, 2014 20:12
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Yikes. My mom slammed some horror stories about going to college without being vaccinated into my head, so that makes me go a lil 
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Mar 31, 2014 20:46
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Tasty_Crayon posted:Yikes. My mom slammed some horror stories about going to college without being vaccinated into my head, so that makes me go a lil College (especially in a dorm) is a festering cesspool of disease and you'll want to get your shots.
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Mar 31, 2014 20:56
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:College (especially in a dorm) is a festering cesspool of disease and you'll want to get your shots. This is so true. Just talking about normal diseases, I've gone from being sick 4-5 times per year during university to about 1-2 now.
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Mar 31, 2014 21:06
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FadedReality posted:I have several anti-vax nutballs in my immediate family, including my mother who sent me to live in a military school dorm with 500 other people with a religious exemption from the booster. It's about Christianity rather than anti-vax, but Bertrand Russel has something to say on the subject. Bertrand Russel, "Why I am not a Christian." posted:...I have increasingly encountered Christians who accuse me to my face of being a liar, of being wicked, of not wanting to talk to God, of willfully ignoring evidence--because that is the only way they can explain my existence. I cannot be an honest, well-informed pursuer of the truth who came to a fair and reasonable decision after a thorough examination of the evidence, because no such person can exist in the Christian worldview, who does not come to Christ. Therefore, I must be a wicked liar, I must be so deluded by sin that I am all but clinically insane, an irrational madman suffering some evil psychosis. Substitute being duped by Big Pharma (or whoever) instead of being wicked and irrational and the description translates fairly well. Basically you can have a talk about what she would need to see in order for her to change her mind and vice versa. If it winds up being a nonsensical answer, then you may have to write off convincing her as a route to getting your nephew vaccinated.
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Mar 31, 2014 21:18
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Buried alive posted:It's about Christianity rather than anti-vax, but Bertrand Russel has something to say on the subject. That's an awesome quote and my mom is definitely a lost cause by now. Got into Ron Paul, moved to a small town, built a farm, bought a dozen guns and is waiting for the gubmint to collapse society. I'm counting the days until she starts advocating bitcoins on top of hoarding gold. The problem is somehow, even though my mom is legit crazy as hell, she has convinced my sister that she knows more about medicine than doctors. I hope my sister isn't a lost cause but she talks to my mom enough that a long conversation about herd immunity and how 9 kids dying from the vaccine is not as bad as having hepatitis can be completely undone with one scare mongering drunk post about toxins by my mom. Family 
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Mar 31, 2014 21:26
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FadedReality posted:Got into Ron Paul Don't you mean Dr. Paul  Sigh, I have a BIL who is a Paul-ite; I have heard all sorts of things. 
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Apr 1, 2014 00:47
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So mention was made of antivax "doctors"? http://jezebel.com/meet-the-doctor-whos-suspiciously-flexible-about-vac-1555188482/all quote:Mother Jones has been on the forefront of reporting on the spread of parents who believe that not vaccinating their children is the healthy way to go. Now they've spoken with one doctor who has built her practice on supporting that mentality. I hope the California Medical Board takes note of this. If they allow this woman to continue to hold a medical license in their state they have lost all legitimacy as the governing body of medical practitioners in that state.
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Apr 1, 2014 02:16
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Idiot Dr. Kenet Lansman posted:We live in a very healthy community...The incidence of these illnesses are very low, not only here, but nationwide. Yes, the incidence of vaccine-preventable illnesses is very low nationwide. If only we could figure out the reason why vaccine-preventable illnesses are very uncommon. There must be some way to...research...the cause of vaccine-preventable illnesses being so rare. When I close my eyes I can envision a paradise, with plentiful data on immunization rates and the incidence of vaccine-preventable illnesses. Alas, we may never know the true cause of the rarity of vaccine-preventable illnesses. What a shame.
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Apr 1, 2014 02:51
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Madmarker posted:Yes, it sucks. And yes, you must. A live child raised without you is infinitely preferable to a dead one. A live child who feels insecure is infinitely preferable to a dead one. And your good feelings about being a provider, or role model, or YOUR LIFE is irrelevant. The kids come first, no matter how hard it makes your life, or unsatisfying. This paragraph could extremely easily be used by pro-lifers.
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Apr 1, 2014 03:31
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Golbez posted:This paragraph could extremely easily be used by pro-lifers. Not really, because pro-lifers don't care about live children.
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Apr 1, 2014 03:42
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Golbez posted:This paragraph could extremely easily be used by pro-lifers.
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Apr 1, 2014 04:00
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T. Bombastus posted:Seems like that would fall flat, since pro-choice people generally don't consider an embryo/fetus to be a living human (whereas just about everyone agrees that a child is alive). They generally don't, but it doesn't have to be good, it just has to be a hook. My own anti-vax story: I have never taken the flu vaccine. Now, I'm not anti-vax. Well, not now. There was that decade I spent as a hardcore libertarian... but that's not why. My grandmother was one of the few who contracted Guillain–Barré syndrome after the 1970s flu vaccinations, so I've always refused on family medical history grounds. I know, the link is weak, but I've always figured, better safe than sorry... and anyway, that's part of what mass vaccination is for, right? Herd immunity, to protect those who can't be vaccinated? I sometimes wonder if I should do it but I've never had a doctor tell me I was crazy, and that's several doctors in several states, I'm certainly not cherrypicking.
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Apr 1, 2014 04:24
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I think you could make a case that flu vaccines are sort of different since the flu is seasonal and the strain that dominates in a given year is variable, which is why flu shots generally have to be retaken every year. It's not really the same sort of persistent advanced threat as say, measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox, polio, etc., that stay in the population. I don't think anyone would really accuse you of being anti-vaccination in the "mainstream" sense for not getting a flu shot. They're also generally presented as optional since, with rare exception, the flu isn't that lethal or dangerous to the average healthy adult.
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Apr 1, 2014 04:33
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Rhandhali posted:So mention was made of antivax "doctors"? I loved that article. The lady went from a city demographically dominated by poor minorities to a county full of affluent white people and the reason for the improvement is naturopathy and not socioeconomic status.
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Apr 1, 2014 04:52
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http://www.king5.com/health/Case-of-measles-reported-in-San-Juan-County-253306451.html A man with the measles has been running around infected in one of the anti vaxxer strongholds of WA. I feel bad for the local kids. Lol - I touched the facebook poop on this because my morals won't allow idiots to go unchallenged in a public forum - Someone called me an idiot because "they are a doctor and 70% of doctors don't even vaccinate their children" - I looked at his profile and he was a mother loving chiropractor. Response "Lol you are a chiropractor" Sorry for the "lol facebook" update but I think we had this conversation just two days ago about bullshit medicine. silicone thrills fucked around with this message at 06:22 on Apr 1, 2014 |
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Apr 1, 2014 05:56
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Golbez posted:They generally don't, but it doesn't have to be good, it just has to be a hook. You know that you are more likely to get GBS with an active case of inflenza than you would be with the vaccine, yes? GBS is only an absolute contraindication within if it's happened in the past six weeks before vaccination; after that it's just a relative contraindication and there's no real evidence that you're likely to get it again. If anything you're more likely to get GBS again if you aren't vaccinated and get the flu.
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Apr 1, 2014 06:01
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MickeyFinn posted:I loved that article. The lady went from a city demographically dominated by poor minorities to a county full of affluent white people and the reason for the improvement is naturopathy and not socioeconomic status. To me it comes off more like she's more greedy than a true believer and just wants to hoover up the money of those rich idiots who will go to whichever doctor tells them what they want to hear. I guess, much like any other profit-seeking doctor in the world.
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Apr 1, 2014 06:49
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Golbez posted:They generally don't, but it doesn't have to be good, it just has to be a hook. Most other posters have covered this, but seasonal flu is an entirely different animal than say MMR vaccines. If you stay home when you catch the flu you really aren't loving up the herd immunity all that much considering the nature of seasonal flu. When it comes to things like H1N1 back in 2009 on the other hand I have less sympathy. I caught that before the vaccine was readily available and let me tell you that was the worst four days of my adult life as far as illness is concerned.
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Apr 1, 2014 08:58
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Pohl posted:Let me be very clear here, with the rates of vaccines in the US, un-vaccinated children, teens and adults are not going to be safe for much longer. I want you to think about the fact that these diseases, which were once absent from the US, are now back and strike on a regular basis. That is not an accident, and it isn't going to get better. Get your kids vaccinated. What's the chance of seeing polio in the US again? I've been watching with some concern the reports on it's growth in Pakistan and Afghanastan, and Syria & the refugee camps are also footholds. (parts of Africa as well, but the issue there is more poverty and remoteness rather than fundamentalism and war)
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Apr 1, 2014 12:22
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Tigntink posted:http://www.king5.com/health/Case-of-measles-reported-in-San-Juan-County-253306451.html My girlfriend is going to medical school. Her mother is a doctor. Her aunts are doctors. In fact, most of her adult family is composed of doctors (or priests), and most of her adult friends are doctors. Every single one of them vaccinates their kids. Maybe they're all just part of the machine or whatever, but not vaccinating your kids is not a thing.
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Apr 1, 2014 16:16
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It probably is among chiropractors, who likely think if their kid gets spinal meningitis that a few neck adjustments would put it right again. Edit: vvvv I'm pretty sure that the American anti-vaxers couldn't care less what a bunch of Swiss doctors think. Heck, they don't even speak English over there, I bet you can just order a medical degree through the mail. vvvv mdemone fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Apr 1, 2014 |
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Apr 1, 2014 16:24
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In case anyone ever runs into "doctors don't vaccinate!" bullshit again http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16263976/ quote:
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Apr 1, 2014 16:56
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The article's not really clear on whether the contagious guy was still in public or not e: found another article, the guy went to the doctor and that's how the health department found out. quote:If you were at any of the above locations on the mentioned dates, and either don't have or are unsure if you have immunity, contact your health care provider or the San Juan County Health Department Also, "Lol you are a chiropractor" is possibly the best response to someone saying that they're qualified to speak about medical issues because they're a chiropractor.
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Apr 1, 2014 17:08
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:College (especially in a dorm) is a festering cesspool of disease and you'll want to get your shots. This is true. And meningitis can spread very, very quickly on a college campus. One of the kids in my class got meningitis and they shut down the entire campus to make sure it didn't spread. Granted, this info came out the day after finals but the college said if anyone at all was still on campus, especially in the affected dorm they had to leave within 24 hours. Bacterial meningitis will kill you. And if it doesn't kill you you have a 1 in 3 chance of deafness or serious cognitive impairment. Viral meningitis isn't as bad but it can still kill you which is why most colleges require you to have shots before you can live there.
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Apr 1, 2014 17:52
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axeil posted:This is true. And meningitis can spread very, very quickly on a college campus. One of the kids in my class got meningitis and they shut down the entire campus to make sure it didn't spread. Granted, this info came out the day after finals but the college said if anyone at all was still on campus, especially in the affected dorm they had to leave within 24 hours. I made it a point to get the meningitis vaccine before I did my first round of grad school for this very reason. Not sure why it hadn't come up when I was an undergrad, really.
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Apr 1, 2014 17:55
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Captain_Maclaine posted:I made it a point to get the meningitis vaccine before I did my first round of grad school for this very reason. Not sure why it hadn't come up when I was an undergrad, really. My mother is an RN. Thank god she is. I got every vaccine you could possibly get before you went off to school and she spent basically my entire childhood drilling basic medical stuff like the importance of vaccines, family histories, etc. into my head. To this day my doctors are impressed by how meticulous I am about this stuff. I missed out on the chicken pox vaccine when I was a kid and got it (along with my then 2 year old sister) and it was miserable. I hope it never comes back as shingles 
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Apr 1, 2014 18:00
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mdemone posted:It probably is among chiropractors, who likely think if their kid gets spinal meningitis that a few neck adjustments would put it right again. This is an Australian documentary regarding chiropractors and their move into wannabe doctors including their relationship to antivaccination. Chiropractors literally want to replace GPs as being the first port of call to illness. http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/3801081.htm If you want to skip to the part directly dealing with their antivaccination stance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7g93V6tw_g&t=720s quote:NARRATION Lid fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Apr 1, 2014 |
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Apr 1, 2014 18:29
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That rear end in a top hat's name cannot actually be Nimrod Weiner. I refuse to believe it. "Nimrod Weiner declined to comment" is the greatest sentence in the history of journalism and by all rights it should immediately become this thread's subtitle.
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Apr 1, 2014 19:38
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I think if you changed every chiropractor's name to Nimrod Weiner, we could get a handle on this anti-vac poo poo inside a decade. Even a vapid soccer-mom isn't going to admit that she's not vaccinating her kids because Dr. Nimrod Weiner said not to.
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Apr 1, 2014 19:44
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Lid posted:This is an Australian documentary regarding chiropractors and their move into wannabe doctors including their relationship to antivaccination. Chiropractors literally want to replace GPs as being the first port of call to illness. This is happening a lot in the US, one of the big pushers of Cannabis oil as a 'cure for cancer' in Canada is a chiropractor. I really REALLY wish the US Medical Board would step up and start squashing these idiots.
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Apr 1, 2014 19:46
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CommieGIR posted:This is happening a lot in the US, one of the big pushers of Cannabis oil as a 'cure for cancer' in Canada is a chiropractor. The it would be one big conspiracy about how the US government and AMA are trying to keep these holistic and natural remedies out of the hands of good citizens. Never look up black salve, fyi. It falls under this category.
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Apr 1, 2014 19:53
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CommieGIR posted:This is happening a lot in the US, one of the big pushers of Cannabis oil as a 'cure for cancer' in Canada is a chiropractor. Yeah I'm all for legalizing marijuana, researching it's use in medicine, and all that, but all these stories coming out now about "Crippled child who can't even blink without having a seizure now leading full life with help of special pot oil" just make my bullshit detector go off. One story detailed how they came about starting the treatment for the kid: They met with the growers and they gave the kid some pot oil and they got better. Then they made a version with low THC. Not exactly rigorously tested. If I'm wrong and real studies have been done on such a treatment I'll retract my point of view but it all screams of "But weed is the anti-bad man *tokes*". Crain fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Apr 1, 2014 |
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Apr 1, 2014 19:55
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It's doubly lovely because cannabis has multiple legitimate medical uses (anti-cachexia, anti-emetic among several others), and that gets lumped in with the goofy "my child smoked pot and now he's not autistic anymore" trash.
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Apr 1, 2014 20:07
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Crain posted:Yeah I'm all for legalizing marijuana, researching it's use in medicine, and all that, but all these stories coming out now about "Crippled child who can't even blink without having a seizure now leading full life with help of special pot oil" just make my bullshit detector go off. One story detailed how they came about starting the treatment for the kid: They met with the growers and they gave the kid some pot oil and they got better. Then they made a version with low THC. Not exactly rigorously tested. If I'm wrong and real studies have been done on such a treatment I'll retract my point of view but it all screams of "But weed is the anti-bad man *tokes*". This story was in Kentucky, where I'm from, and from what I understand they didn't go to growers but to other states where medical marijuana has been legal. The child had lots of problems with seizures and the doctors in other states recommended this treatment as a possible solution. The oil reduced the number seizures by 80%, and there was enough evidence for the Kentucky assembly to vote in favor of legalizing it (I was very surprised by this). I could be wrong, but I heard the story on NPR during my morning drive to school and it seemed legit.
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Apr 1, 2014 20:42
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ProfessorCurly posted:This story was in Kentucky, where I'm from, and from what I understand they didn't go to growers but to other states where medical marijuana has been legal. The child had lots of problems with seizures and the doctors in other states recommended this treatment as a possible solution. The oil reduced the number seizures by 80%, and there was enough evidence for the Kentucky assembly to vote in favor of legalizing it (I was very surprised by this). It may be one of the few legitimate cases where THC can be used to treat the siezures, but we also know that THC can inhibit brain development and cause other issues, so we'll see if it was worth it in the long run. Either way, further studies need to be published to fully vet this solution. mdemone posted:It's doubly lovely because cannabis has multiple legitimate medical uses (anti-cachexia, anti-emetic among several others), and that gets lumped in with the goofy "my child smoked pot and now he's not autistic anymore" trash. The problem is the pro-legalization crowd is too quick to take cases and use them as a progoganda tool, instead of using cautious optimism. They don't really hide the fact that they want it legalized no matter what, and use cases like this to make excuses versus 'We should legalize marijuana because its not a harmful drug, even less harmful that tobacco'
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Apr 1, 2014 20:50
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ProfessorCurly posted:This story was in Kentucky, where I'm from, and from what I understand they didn't go to growers but to other states where medical marijuana has been legal. The child had lots of problems with seizures and the doctors in other states recommended this treatment as a possible solution. The oil reduced the number seizures by 80%, and there was enough evidence for the Kentucky assembly to vote in favor of legalizing it (I was very surprised by this). That's what I'm referring to but I can't find any good links to actual research on the topic. One paper I found showed no statistical improvement for CBD use in primate test subjects. Others showed some improvement for brain damage as a result of hypoxia in piglets. But there is little actual research out there. Which makes is seem like a lucky gamble that may be a one off or not an actual treatment. The kid is so young that it's not like they can get very much info from them on just what is going on. Sure he's not seizing but god knows if it's actual treatment or just masking the seizures in some way and he still experiencing problems otherwise. Of course much of the lack of research is due to the bans in place so it will be forth coming but the practice still reeks of naturopath woo-woo.
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Apr 1, 2014 20:50
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Crain posted:Of course much of the lack of research is due to the bans in place so it will be forth coming but the practice still reeks of naturopath woo-woo. Most of what research has been done up to this point can charitably be described as "low quality". Among other things any official research had to be done using ditch-weed grade marijuana grown by the National Institute On Drug Abuse. quote:NIDA administers a contract with the University of Mississippi to grow the nation's only legal cannabis crop for medical and research purposes,[30] including the Compassionate Investigational New Drug program. A Fast Company article pointed out, "Based on the photographic evidence, NIDA's concoction of seeds, stems, and leaves more closely resembles dried cat brier than cannabis".[31] An article in Mother Jones describes their crop as "brown, stems-and-seeds-laden, low-potency pot—what's known on the streets as "schwag""aka "Bobby Brown". United States federal law currently registers cannabis as a Schedule I drug. Medical marijuana researchers typically prefer to use high-potency marijuana, but NIDA's National Advisory Council on Drug Abuse has been reluctant to provide cannabis with high THC levels, citing safety concerns:[30] They are extremely selective about what science they will allow to be done and who they will allow to do it. The science should be viewed about the same as oil industry-sponsored climate change research: tainted by obvious manipulation and conflicts of interest right from conception. That doesn't mean that we should assume that marijuana does have anti-seizure properties, etc, but you really shouldn't take negative findings as permanent and conclusive when the scientific process has been tampered with as much as it has been. The fact that some seedy brown outdoor-grown schwag doesn't seem to have the same effects as the hydroponic medical strains people are finding improves their seizures doesn't prove they're just making up "naturopath woo woo". Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Apr 1, 2014 |
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Apr 1, 2014 21:12
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To answer why chiropractic is still allowed to exist, the American chiropractic association filed a restraint of trade suit against the AMA. Until that point the AMA had an ethical principle that medicine was supposed to a scientific, evidence based field and practitioners could be sanctioned for associating with or providing referrals to members of the "unscientific cult" of chiropractic. The chiropractors sued, and won on the basis of free trade and antitrust law. It's been downhill from there. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilk_v._American_Medical_Association Rhandhali fucked around with this message at 01:04 on Apr 2, 2014 |
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Apr 1, 2014 23:19
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