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Yeah, it's not that self-publishing is never the way to go, I just don't really think it's nearly as broadly applicable as big self-pub advocates would like to say it is.
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Apr 1, 2014 22:40
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CB_Tube_Knight posted:The post with the genre information is kind of interesting. Thanks for that.  Or, write in this case. You'll get through the slow bits and onto the stuff you want to do eventually. Then, you can go back through and clean up the parts you had trouble with in hindsight. Hope things look up for you! And, yeah, the word count post was really helpful. I think I'm in the right range at 70-75k for a fantasy-adventure novel. I really just based it off of "Hmm, I like these authors and they're close to how I write. What are their word counts?" So, I looked up a lot of Neil Gaiman, The Hunger Games, etc. and kind of went from there. It's kind of difficult, though, because it's hard to pigeonhole some of these books. My novel is fairly similar to what Gaiman does, where it's fantasy but set in the real world with real places and situations. It just "twists" what readers know and experience. So, is that fantasy? If the characters are traveling throughout the world in the book, is it an adventure novel? Is the writing style New Adult? Young Adult? It could really fit into several genres and marketing categories. Sometimes, I think it's easy to worry too much about word counts when you should just focus on telling your story, but then you see those posts from actual agents and go "Well, poo poo. Now what?" Your Dead Gay Son posted:Can you really say you're surprised that the self publishing thread advocates self publishing? I think, for me, it's a little daunting to enter the thread because mentioning you're trying to decide between the two types will get you jumped. At least, that was my experience. Certainly, both methods have their pros and cons, but I do feel like a lot of self-publishers are advocating it as an end-all-be-all to help the downtrodden wordsmith. But, the truth is that the success stories aren't really all that much greater. It's still only, like, the top 5% of authors in either method that are making money, and that upper echelon definitely makes more on the traditional end. But, again, it's a matter of pros and cons about what's good for an individual book rather than the field as a whole, since there are definitely positives to self-publishing that might make the difference for many authors. It's just that it's very hard to get an objective look at the two sides in the self-publishing thread. A lot of the self-publishing community (not just here, but from what I've read elsewhere, too) tries to make it sound like a very cut-and-dry victory for self-made authors when it's really not remotely like that. Axel Serenity fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Apr 1, 2014 |
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Apr 1, 2014 22:49
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CB_Tube_Knight posted:The post with the genre information is kind of interesting. Thanks for that.
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Apr 1, 2014 22:53
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Axel Serenity posted:
They are already. This mother, maiden, crone thing is really a byproduct of me having distance from it. I have a hard time telling people that they have to write everyday no questions asked because sometimes distance helps. Jonked posted:Oh hey cool more talk about how you can't write, won't write, want to write, are going to write, and basically everything except giving or receiving actual advice on actual written fiction. Neat! I'll only do it if you make a post being a smart rear end.
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Apr 1, 2014 23:14
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When it comes to self versus traditional publishing, or the state of the publishing industry in general, the commentary I trust most is:  "We have some ideas, but nobody actually knows what's going on right now."
Crisco Kid fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Apr 2, 2014 |
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Apr 2, 2014 00:12
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General Battuta posted:Oh, no, definitely do as many rounds of revisions and beta readers as you want (that's what I meant by drafting). Sim subs means 'simultaneous submissions', something you're allowed to do with novels but generally not short stories: you can identify a list of agents who might be receptive, and submit to all of them at the same time. Be sure to read their submission guidelines super carefully and give them each exactly what they want. In particular, hone your query letter down to a slim, effective hook, because it's all most of them will ever look at. I was thinking of self-publishing for my novel, but this recent talk has convinced me to at least try to submit to agents/publishers first. But if I may, I'd like to pose a pie-in-the-sky hypothetical. The novel I'm writing is self-contained, but it would still be the first in an intended series. Let's say it gets published, it's a commercial failure, and the publisher isn't interested in moving forward with book two, but I'd still like to write it for self-publication (assuming that no other house would be willing to pick it up). Would I be able to do that? Or would a typical publishing deal force me to sign over the rights to my characters, thus blocking me from freely publishing future stories with them? This may be a stupid question, but I'd like to be 100% on it.
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Apr 2, 2014 00:17
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DivisionPost posted:I was thinking of self-publishing for my novel, but this recent talk has convinced me to at least try to submit to agents/publishers first. But if I may, I'd like to pose a pie-in-the-sky hypothetical. Obviously I'm new to the realm, as well, but from what I understand it will be up to the quality of your agent more than anything. Most people I've seen as being success stories say you should submit to agents first, since larger publishing houses don't even accept unsolicited manuscripts. From there, it's all about their bargaining power and ability to work with publishers. I'd imagine, at least from what I understand from other entertainment mediums, is that the publishing house will pretty much own that first novel outright for the foreseeable future. However, an agent might be able to negotiate a release of rights for characters back to you so you can submit to other publishers if the original feels they won't be able to move on with it. It's really all about the original contract, and I'm not sure what is considered the "standard" offer nowadays with how things are changing in the digital landscape. Also, speaking of agents, what's considered the go-to for finding agents and what they accept or specialize in? Is it still that "Writer's Market" book at Barnes and Noble that issues a list once-a-year. I'm not as worried about actually landing an agent for other reasons, but it'd be nice to have a reference on how to make query letters, standard formats, etc.
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Apr 2, 2014 00:30
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Axel Serenity posted:Obviously I'm new to the realm, as well, but from what I understand it will be up to the quality of your agent more than anything. Most people I've seen as being success stories say you should submit to agents first, since larger publishing houses don't even accept unsolicited manuscripts. From there, it's all about their bargaining power and ability to work with publishers. So assuming that's the right answer, it's pretty much up to me, a man with relatively little business business acumen and an untested bullshit detector, to be able to sniff an agent out of the likely few who may be willing to represent me. Of course I'm happy to wait for information from a more seasoned source, but that's...utterly loving terrifying. No wonder people cling to self-publishing so tightly; even if you fail miserably, there's something comforting about that failure being on your own terms. (I do appreciate the two cents, though.)
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Apr 2, 2014 00:45
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DivisionPost posted:but that's...utterly loving terrifying. No wonder people cling to self-publishing so tightly; even if you fail miserably, there's something comforting about that failure being on your own terms. I don't understand this mindset at all. Go to http://agentquery.com/ and pick your genre and start sending out queries in batches of ten or so. Do some research on how to write a query; it's very important. If every single one of them says no, then your book probably sucks and you should write a better one. Here's the good part: your next one probably will be better. It's how writing works. Then, when you finally get a novel published, it's your best possible effort. blue squares fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Apr 2, 2014 |
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Apr 2, 2014 00:49
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Here are some resources that have been thrown around a few times (because they're useful): Query Shark: "How To Write Query Letters ... or, really, how to revise query letters so they actually work" Agent and Editor Wishlist Collected tweets from Agents talking about the manuscripts they're looking for Writer Beware: "Scams and Alerts for Writers" Brandon Sanderson, Lecture 15 (1/6): "What to do Next, Approaching Agents/Editors" Brandon Sanderson, Lecture 8 (from 2012): "Agents, Royalties, Contracts" Brandon Sanderson, Lecture 9: "Traditional Vs Self Publishing, Contract Law" Brandon Sanderson, Lecture 10: "Agents, Editors, the Book Market"
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Apr 2, 2014 01:15
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My thoughts on self-pub vs. publisher is similar to my thoughts about my recording career. When I was younger, I wanted a label deal and a big contract and global exposure. Now, I only want to play at two bars around the corner from my house, and self-publishing my record has worked perfectly for me. I'm not in it to become a professional musician; I just wanted my stuff out there for all of my fan. Regarding self-pub; yes, I will definitely start pitching to publishers first, but if a year goes by and it doesn't get picked up, and I still believe in it enough to promote it, I'm going self-pub to get it out to all of my waiting fan.
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Apr 2, 2014 01:27
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Crisco Kid posted:Here are some resources that have been thrown around a few times (because they're useful): I remember seeing these a while back. Could we get these in the OP or something?
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Apr 2, 2014 01:48
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CB_Tube_Knight posted:
But you are asked to post in a manner conducive to the objectives of this thread  if you don't want to do that why are you here.
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Apr 2, 2014 01:54
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CB_Tube_Knight posted:I'll only do it if you make a post being a smart rear end. He might have been a little on the nose about it, but you do treat this thread kind of like a blog. Discussion or questions about writing is good and encouraged, so maybe try to phrase your comments in that way, rather than just an update on what you're doing.
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Apr 2, 2014 01:59
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Sorry to sidetrack this great discussion on publishing, but I've noticed an interesting problem in my writing that never has seemed to be an issue before. Starting sentences. On average I write between 2,000-10,000 words a day, but I was looking through a lot of recent writing I've done since I started on something awful, and am feeling a bit disappointed. Pro's: Grammar has improved (A lot IMO.) Understanding of description has improved (implementation is debatable) Con's: Plots which were exciting to me before no longer are (that's not a plotisms)- How do I rescue a plot or at least attempt to write something before dismissing it as a possibility? Telegraphic writing (Then they X. X did Y. The Y responded with Z.) - A lot of my recent writing comes across as an expository how to. This is absolutely destroying my writing. I'm tired of starting sentences with 'the', and 'he', and 'him', and 'a name'. Is there any tips y'all have for me? Any lists of alternatives to break the cycle? Anyway to start thinking about the process to prevent it in the first place? elfdude fucked around with this message at 05:42 on Apr 2, 2014 |
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Apr 2, 2014 05:39
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elfdude posted:This is absolutely destroying my writing. I'm tired of starting sentences with 'the', and 'he', and 'him', and 'a name'. Is there any tips y'all have for me? Any lists of alternatives to break the cycle? Anyway to start thinking about the process to prevent it in the first place? Go open a book you like and look at the sentences in it and see how they are structured. Then do that with another book. Maybe even a third? Then edit some sentences you have written to change up sentence structure (you can post some stuff here and I/other people can take a look if you get stuck). I like doing this and I think I have a book I like around here somewhere within walking distance... Yeah, here we go. Raymond Chandler's The Big Sleep posted:It was about eleven o'clock in the morning, mid October, with the sun not shining and a look of hard wet rain in the clearness of the foothills. So, in this first example, you can see that Chandler actually uses the simple subject-verb construction most of the time. The repetition of "I was" in the first paragraph focuses in on the narrowing description: his clothes, what they meant, what he was after. Even within that repetition, you can see how he has varied the sentence length, and added subordinate clauses. The second paragraph also uses mostly the subject-verb construction, though you get an introductory clause in sentence two ("Over the entrance doors"). In this paragraph, however, the subject changes, (The main hallway, The Knight, I, He), so there is more variation at the beginning of the sentences, even though the primary structure remains the same. There are also more subordinate clauses and sentence length variation through out. The picture in the stained glass and his reaction to it is also an apt summary for the book, and once you've read it, you can see the end of it right there. That's a fine first two paragraphs, in my opinion. Neil Gaiman's Neverwhere posted:The night before he went to London, Richard Mayhew was not enjoying himself. Holy Moly, look at that second paragraph; it is all one sentence. We also see the repetition (again!) of "he had enjoyed." Within that monster sentence, you see how he uses subclauses to break up the repetition, it starts with he had enjoyed, he had enjoyed, but then which each successive pint, until now. Gaiman uses introductory clauses to give us information about time and location (the night before he went to London, Inside the pub), but other than that he also sticks to the subject-verb construction, albeit with some more changes in tense (was not enjoying, had begun by enjoying, had enjoyed). He varies the verbs themselves more, outside of the repetition of enjoy, and keeps Richard (or "he") as the subject of all but one sentence. Robin McKinley's Chalice posted:Because she was Chalice she stood at the front door with the Grand Seneschal, the Overlord's agent and the Prelate, all of whom were carefully ignoring her. Wow, that's a lot of different ways to start a sentence! Dr. Kloctopussy fucked around with this message at 07:16 on Apr 2, 2014 |
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Apr 2, 2014 05:56
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Because I am obsessed with this author right now, here's a link to a short story you can examine for this purpose! The Monsters of HeavenNathan Ballingrud posted:For a long time, Brian imagined reunions with his son. In the early days, these fantasies were defined by spectacular violence. He would find the man who stole him and open his head with a claw hammer. The more blood he spilled, the further removed he became from his own guilt. The location would often change: a roach-haunted tenement building; an abandoned warehouse along the Tchoupitoulas wharf; a pre-fab bungalow with an American flag out front and a two-door hatchback parked in the driveway. This illustrates how you can mine structure for emotional value and ways to mirror the character's mental state. The simpler sentences land like punches, followed by more complex sentences that unspool as the character elaborates his fantasies. For the reader, the interplay and contrast makes each type more effective. Note that when Ballingrud does use repetitive structure, it's very intentional: He waited, He waited, He played, He gained. When overused, this sort of trick will lose its power, but when deployed purposefully they create a sense of routine. Repeated feelings of uselessness -- the monotony of grief, failure, impotence. edit vvvvv This is just the introduction; obviously the whole work isn't like that. Later sections are more immediate and play with shifting perspective, chronology, and even verb tense, but that's far more complicated than a discussion of basic sentence structure and how to vary it. Crisco Kid fucked around with this message at 07:29 on Apr 2, 2014 |
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Apr 2, 2014 06:55
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Wow, Dr. Kloctopussy. I saw that before edit and after edit, and I have to double wow. Thank you. I might need some time to let that settle, but for now I think that will be a great starting point. My favorite book of all time is hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy(s), and that actually has quite a bit of creative prose. Out of curiosity, since I can't always devote my attention to a book, is there anything else that helps get the creative prose stewing for y'all? edit: Crisco Kid, that was pretty powerful writing, but I struggle with it from a critical perspective and I feel like it's telling me a lot. Then again, I value your opinion so I must wonder if my taste-o-meter is off? I always find it difficult to balance showing and telling. While I love the idea behind delivering well-timed repetitive nature, I get the feeling (especially for short stories) that establishing that is incredibly difficult while simultaneously accomplishing a plot. elfdude fucked around with this message at 07:11 on Apr 2, 2014 |
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Apr 2, 2014 07:06
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elfdude posted:I can't always devote my attention to a book I think if you want to write a book you should maybe work on this?
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Apr 2, 2014 08:22
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Yeah, 2k to 10k a day is an impressive amount but not as impressive as less words, more reading. I'm far from a good author but my writing improved by leaps and bounds when I started cutting back on daily word count goals to make time to read more.
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Apr 2, 2014 12:45
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I have a question about an upcoming problem I am foreseeing. I started something with the intentions of doing it as a short story, but after 3,000 words (of moving plot, not just dithering) I've only just now got the two brothers in the main predicament that they have to solve. I can't see myself wrapping this up satisfactorily and staying within the ~7,500 words that is the top-end of salable short fiction (to magazines, not on Kindle). In fact, the idea could easily support a full novel. Thing is, I already wrote one novel and while it was a great learning experience, it was a terrible finished product and I told myself I'd stick to short stories for a year or so before trying again. That was only a month ago. Should I just abandon the story and leave it to later, or just follow it into novel territory even if I don't think I'm ready? I guess it's possible I could surprise myself and write something long that's decent. Or, if I just let the story do its thing and end up with something that's 20k or so, what do I even do with that?
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Apr 2, 2014 14:08
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blue squares posted:I have a question about an upcoming problem I am foreseeing. I started something with the intentions of doing it as a short story, but after 3,000 words (of moving plot, not just dithering) I've only just now got the two brothers in the main predicament that they have to solve. I can't see myself wrapping this up satisfactorily and staying within the ~7,500 words that is the top-end of salable short fiction (to magazines, not on Kindle). In fact, the idea could easily support a full novel. Thing is, I already wrote one novel and while it was a great learning experience, it was a terrible finished product and I told myself I'd stick to short stories for a year or so before trying again. That was only a month ago. You are bound to feel differently about every piece of work you create, so I think the questions are, (1) do you feel better about this story being turned into a full-length novel; (2) are you feeling the same vibes and apprehension as when you wrote your first novel? I'm not sure you should use your experience on finishing one single novel to gauge when you should start another one. However, if you feel that this is going to be detrimental regardless, put the story aside and write something else first and come back later. You may even find that it can work as a shorter piece. I'm not familiar with the market, but 20k is a novella? It doesn't seem to have that huge a demand though.
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Apr 2, 2014 17:25
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Nobody in SF/F buys novellas except, perhaps, Giganotasaurus (or serialized installments in another magazine, but good luck with that). Don't know what genre you're writing though.
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Apr 2, 2014 17:39
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Nobody cares about novellas, turn it into a novel.
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Apr 2, 2014 18:23
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ravenkult posted:Nobody cares about novellas. edit: I should mention I write horror, but the non pulpy, Stephen Kingy type stuff, and when I say I don't like reading short stories, I mean in comparison to novels, which I love. blue squares fucked around with this message at 21:11 on Apr 2, 2014 |
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Apr 2, 2014 20:43
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Short stories are often exquisite and they're great ways to hone your prose-level writing. They don't teach some valuable skills you need for a novel, mostly regarding long-term structure. They DO teach how to open a scene, hit your beats, and get out into the next scene in a smooth, satisfying way. They're also a nice way to practice basic techniques like beats between dialog and telling details. One of the hardest things about picking up writing is that it gets less fun as you get better at it, because you become more aware of your own flaws and failings. (The sense of competence does return eventually, and it never stops feeling great to get into the zone and nail a scene.) Some of the reasons you had fun with your novel may actually be bad habits that you had room to indulge.
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Apr 2, 2014 20:55
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I really appreciate all the thoughtful replies, especially Rhino and Battuta. I think what might be best for me long term is to really think about this story and find the most concise way to tell it and try to get everything in while still keeping it a short story. Could be a very useful task for the future.
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Apr 2, 2014 21:23
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Just popping in to get acquainted - I'm excited to have found a decent resource of fiction writers/readers for those tough questions, as I don't have a lot of (read: any) writers in my day-to-day life. Quick tip for anyone in the horror genre: I use http://horrortree.com to keep an eye out for submission calls and have had some success with them so far. It's a nice directory of publications seeking short stories, novellas, and novels, and it's very nicely organized.
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Apr 2, 2014 21:24
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Walamor posted:He might have been a little on the nose about it, but you do treat this thread kind of like a blog. Discussion or questions about writing is good and encouraged, so maybe try to phrase your comments in that way, rather than just an update on what you're doing. I brought up that I had figured out what I was going to do with the four horsemen. I asked a question about that before and someone mentioned some ideas. I don't see anything different with explaining where I was and then updating on the idea I decided on. What doesn't add to discussion is bitching about it. If the idea is bad or too common or good that's what the thread is for. Focusing on the part where I mentioned real life stuff just sounds like someone looking to be an rear end.
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Apr 2, 2014 23:21
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Whalley posted:Yeah, 2k to 10k a day is an impressive amount but not as impressive as less words, more reading. I'm far from a good author but my writing improved by leaps and bounds when I started cutting back on daily word count goals to make time to read more. Interesting. I can definitely say that the quality of my writing in terms of description, and voice was much more powerful when I was younger and didn't give two fucks either way. I also read a lot more. Currently, I get about one for fun book done a month which is nowhere near as much as I'd like to read. Unfortunately, most of books are fantasy like dragonlance, forgotten realms, warhammer etc. Things I inherited from my father. I have pretty much every classic book from oz on, but I'm searching for some books which deal with fantasy and sci fi well. If anyone has some ideas? blue squares posted:I have a question about an upcoming problem I am foreseeing. I started something with the intentions of doing it as a short story, but after 3,000 words (of moving plot, not just dithering) I've only just now got the two brothers in the main predicament that they have to solve. I can't see myself wrapping this up satisfactorily and staying within the ~7,500 words that is the top-end of salable short fiction (to magazines, not on Kindle). In fact, the idea could easily support a full novel. Thing is, I already wrote one novel and while it was a great learning experience, it was a terrible finished product and I told myself I'd stick to short stories for a year or so before trying again. That was only a month ago. I find that the rules I use for writing short stories and the ones I use for writing novels are quite different, it's like a marathon vs a sprint. I'm not someone who believes that stories should ever be abandoned; even stories I 'finished' years ago sometimes get complete rewrites. What I can say however is that most of my novels start with kernals of a central short story which is then rewritten to fill in the holes, expand the description, etc. So when I write a novel, my first step is to write out the general plot, any description that comes to mind, my second step is to open a new blank word document, and then rewrite every paragraph from start to finish with the first draft only serving as a rough guide or inspiration. Generally speaking each time I go through the process the story can easily double in length which moves your 20k story into 40k, another rewriting could balloon that out more. Here's an example of my process: League War - Outline: Faction brotherhood declares war on league - Perspective from the brotherhood what is the brotherhood - Roman/chinese isolationism inspired - Why are we going to war? - Border patrol caught barbarian attempting to break into territory, reveals the gap in technology is gone. A strike to eliminate the power bases of enemy is proposed to restore superiority. - How do we react to going to war? First draft - introduction. Wood chopping was never fun. Antixx worked like a machine, placing another wooden beam aside as he readied his axe to split another log. The industry of the Brotherhood needed wood perhaps most of all in the modern era. The odd thing was that the price of wood was so low that few Brothers wasted their time working it. The gods of Supply and Demand were rolling in their graves. The Brotherhood had exhausted its resources years before. Now all that remained was Antixx' tree farm growing in the shadow of the world tree. Antixx saw himself as a bit of a green thumb mixed with an inventor. It had been his ingenuity that had automated farming and largely led to the build up of the Brotherhood as a world superpower. His super-fertilizer had formed the basis of the world tree. An ancient structure the tree itself was nearly fifty feet wide at the base. The tree was his pride and joy. The sound of a firework shooting off below sent Antixx scampering for protection. Enemies weren't common in the brotherhood, not for generations, but the old councilor had been around long enough that he still remembered that they were. He quickly grabbed his shovel and shield that he had buried in his tree farm and left to meet the intruder. As he peeked over the cliffside he saw the telltale symbol of the Templar below them. Antixx tightened his grip on his shovel before he spoke, "Who goes there?" The wide smile of Celoxia grinned up at him. Antixx felt his blood run cold. Of all of the templar he was the worse. "Why hey there elfy, how goes the gardening?" Antixx didn't respond. The glass bottle strapped to his belt brought little comfort. With The Sons of the Brotherhood gone, and their citadel falling into ruin the nearest reinforcements were days away. Antixx calculated his odds, but even with the high ground and a spare resistance potion, his calculating mind still told him that he was unlikely to win this fight. He shrugged and shouldered his shovel. Jumping from the cliff-side to the ground below. It was Brotherhood law that tresspasser's die and Antixx had no intention of arguing it, not for Celoxia. The momentum of the fall carried through the shovel which upturned the concrete street as though it were topsoil, throwing Celoxia off his balance. He rolled away as the heavy block of concrete crashed down where he had been standing. He laughed, "Come on, you can do better than that." With a motion a gyser of Lava erupted from the hole singeing Antixx's eyebrows. He stepped away and placed the potion to his lips. Casually he strode across the lava and felled a part of the cliff with another swing from his shovel. His skin radiated heated the excess heat shining like red-hot steel. "Your tricks won't work on me this time." Celoxia laughed for half a second before turning to run. Antixx snarled, guessing the intention of the raider. The potion's influence would only protect him from the pain and heat for so long and chasing a Lava Mage through a thick forest was not what Antixx had in mind for the day. Still, there were Brotherhood traditions to worry about. Antixx reached under his white robes and pulled a leather tie tighter before giving chase. Rewrite: Wood chopping was never fun. Antixx worked like a machine, placing another wooden beam aside as he readied his axe to split another log. The motion seemed to occur like clockwork. Smells of freshly split evergreen filled the air as he busied himself in his workshop. The tree farm Antixx had created was built upon the side of a mountain. Which to most seemed an odd place to build a tree farm, but for the Brotherhood the spot had sacred significance. The terraced farms in the mountains surrounded a central harbor like an amphitheater, the sounds of crashing waves and seabirds echoed endlessly. In the center of the semicircular cove stood the trunk of an enormous tree poking through the salty sea-water. Called the Mothertree, the Brotherhood founders had planted her on a sand bar hundreds of years before. Now the tree had swallowed up its miniature island. Enormous tangled roots looped around themselves and plunged into the oceanic waters at odd intervals. Each root was thicker than a man was tall and some were bigger still. The trunk then stretched into the sky and above the clouds. At least the view from his Workshop was breathtaking. Antixx's problems were more mundane, the simple problem of coin plagued him continuously. He had created the tree farm to bring in some much needed coin to the citizens who called the Mothertree their home. It was a good idea in Antixx's mind, the industry of the Brotherhood needed wood perhaps most of all. The odd thing was that the price of wood was so low that few Brothers wasted their time working it. Antixx imagined gods of Supply and Demand were rolling in their graves. The Brotherhood had exhausted its resources years before. Now all that remained was Antixx's tree farm growing in the shadow of the world tree. Antixx saw himself as a bit of a green thumb mixed with an inventor. His white Councilor robes were stained with mud and green smears. He half-heartedly brushed some dirt off of his thighs, but only succeeded in smearing it further. He laughed, and reminded himself to wash them before the next councilor meeting. Making a mental note to make a motion for darker councilor robes, as well. It had been largely his ingenuity that had automated farming, and led to the build up of the Brotherhood as a world superpower. His super-fertilizer had formed the basis of the tree farm, and his automated harvester brought the empire thousands of tons of excess food. If he couldn't have brown robes then the rest of the council would have to deal with his stained ones instead. The sound of a firework shooting off below sent Antixx running. Another of Antixx's ideas, the fireworks had been given to the citizens living around the tree to quickly warn Antixx. He was almost excited to see it in action, but his concern put his excitement on hold. Powerful and direct, his strides carried him to a small dirt mound in the middle of his artificial forest. Enemies weren't common in the Brotherhood's lands, not for generations, but the old councilor had been around long enough that he still remembered when they were. Pushing aside the dirt he uncovered his treasure. At first glance the box glittered with wealth and Antixx was half tempted to take an extra potion to sell for his workshop. The warbox was something given to each brother and contained their weapons, accessories and armor. Making his decision he grabbed a shield and a shovel from the chest. He grinned at the gleaming shovel which made short work of covering back up his stash. As he peeked over the cliffside to the street below, he saw the telltale symbol of the Templar on their armor below him. Antixx tightened his grip on his shovel before he spoke, "Who goes there?" The intruder looked calmly up at the Brother. His oiled black armor dripped with the blood of a civilian. The wide smile of Celoxia grinned up at him. Antixx felt his blood run cold as he wondered which of his abbots had fallen prey to the glorified murderer. Of all of the Templar, Antixx considered him the worse. "Why hey there elfy, how goes the gardening? Can you believe that a child spotted me and tried to alert you with those little firestick things?" He sighed. "Ohwell, I haven't had an honest fight in quite some time." Antixx didn't respond. Checking that the glass bottle was strapped to his belt brought little comfort. With The Sons of the Brotherhood gone, and their citadel falling into ruin the nearest reinforcements were days away. Antixx calculated his odds, but even with the high ground and a spare resistance potion, his mind still told him that he was unlikely to win this fight. He shrugged and shouldered his shovel. Jumping from the cliff-side to the ground below. It was Brotherhood law that trespasser's die, and Antixx had no intention of arguing it, not for Celoxia at least. The momentum of the fall carried through the shovel which upturned the concrete street as though it were topsoil, throwing Celoxia off his balance. He rolled away as the heavy block of concrete crashed down where he had been standing. He laughed, "Come on, you can do better than that." With a motion of his black gauntlets, a gyser of Lava erupted from the hole nearly swallowing Antixx. Antixx roared in frustration. Stepping away, he placed the potion to his lips and then casually, he strode across the lava and swung again. Rocks fell as part of the cliff crumpled to the vorpal shovel. His skin unnaturally radiated heat, the excess heat shining like red-hot steel. "Your tricks won't work on me this time." Celoxia laughed for half a second before turning to run. Antixx snarled, guessing the intention of the raider. The potion's influence would only protect him from the heat for so long, and chasing a Lava Mage through a thick forest was not what Antixx had in mind for the day. Still, there were Brotherhood traditions to worry about. Antixx reached under his white robes and pulled a leather tie tighter on his armor before giving chase. ------- Then etc. As you can see a lot of errors are fixed in the first rewrite, and descriptions begin to make a lot more sense as you have an idea of which descriptions are more important now that you have which pieces you interact with written out. Generally speaking by the third or forth pass I have a pretty passable chapter starting with only a single page or two of original writing. However this exact strategy sucks horribly with short stories or I haven't figured out how to adapt it for them. I only spent an hour to write that up so don't expect it to be gold I just wanted to illustrate my process. elfdude fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Apr 2, 2014 |
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Apr 2, 2014 23:28
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gameplusmeagan posted:Just popping in to get acquainted - I'm excited to have found a decent resource of fiction writers/readers for those tough questions, as I don't have a lot of (read: any) writers in my day-to-day life. Welcome! blue squares posted:Exactly. What's the opinion of this thread on short stories as the building blocks of writing? I don't particularly enjoy reading most short stories, nor do I get as much fun out of writing them as I did when I worked on my novel (and then 60 pages of the next one before I decided it wasn't the right story for me). Despite my preference for longer form, conventional writing wisdom says to work on short stories and get better before you go to novels. I accept that I don't have to always like it; after all, I doubt professional athletes always liked the hundreds of hours of drills they did, but those drills are why they became successful.
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Apr 2, 2014 23:38
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Here is the problem people have with your posts:CB_Tube_Knight posted:The post with the genre information is kind of interesting. Thanks for that. All but one of these sentences is an "I" statement: what you're doing, what you're thinking, what you want or need or feel. This is what Walamor meant by treating this place like your personal blog. The way you phrase things makes a huge impression on people, especially when your written words are the only thing people have to go on. "I" "I'm" "I've" phrasing, used so frequently, comes across as "me" "my" "mine." In a word: self-centered. If you don't want to come across that way, you have to break this habit. There's an unspoken expectation here that general discussion and advice means talking about things that are of general benefit to the majority of people participating. But you're asking questions that are so specific to what you're doing that I totally get why people are starting to feel like you're wasting their time. You don't ask enough open questions or leave much space for people to comment on what you're posting with anything more than, "Good for you." You really need to find another space to talk about your ideas and progress. Start a blog, or a writer's group where people trade time to blab about their in-progress stories. Find places where people specifically discuss mythology or whatever else you're researching at the time. Save this place for discussing the actual writing part, or post writing you want critiqued in the Fiction Farm or your own thread. That's what we're here for. We're not Ask/Tell so we can't help much with questions about mythology or guns (from another derail that went bad ages ago) or whatever. Posts about being stuck on your writing don't go down well around here either, unless you're looking for constructive advice rather than sympathy. And don't think I'm just picking on you, CG_Tube_Knight. This has been a derailing issue before, so I'm hoping to clear things up before another massive flaming dogpile ensues. Stuporstar fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Apr 3, 2014 |
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Apr 3, 2014 00:47
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Advice for Tube Knight: Worry way more about plot before you try to cram biblical symbolism and world building in. It's so easy to have a cool world and a tacked-on plot, I've done it in a 50,000 word novel. Oops!
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Apr 3, 2014 01:32
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blue squares posted:I don't understand this mindset at all. Go to http://agentquery.com/ and pick your genre and start sending out queries in batches of ten or so. Do some research on how to write a query; it's very important. If every single one of them says no, then your book probably sucks and you should write a better one. Here's the good part: your next one probably will be better. It's how writing works. Then, when you finally get a novel published, it's your best possible effort. Thanks a ton for this link. I had no idea there was an online resource for listings, so the $30 I would have spent buying Writer's Market can go towards submissions. When do you guys typically start to send out your submissions, anyway? After the first draft? After a couple passes? And do you typically include the SASE and all that fun stuff with your queries, as well? Just based off the expectations of what I'm looking for with my book, it seems like traditional publishing may be the best option for me, assuming I can maybe wrangle a lower advance for the first book in order to better meet that number and ensure the next books get published, too. But, if I'm gonna do it, I want to do it right. Crisco Kid posted:Here are some resources that have been thrown around a few times (because they're useful): These are also all really great, though I haven't had a chance to watch too much of the lectures yet. Thanks for the help! 
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Apr 3, 2014 02:44
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Axel Serenity posted:
quote:And do you typically include the SASE and all that fun stuff with your queries, as well? quote:
You're not going to be wrangling anything. That's your agent's job. Listen to them.
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Apr 3, 2014 02:48
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blue squares posted:Jesus Christ, no. No one's first draft should be seen by other eyes.
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Apr 3, 2014 02:53
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Stuporstar posted:Here is the problem people have with your posts: Well don't think it hasn't helped, that's not what I'm about to say at all. But there needs to be a clearer idea that what you're wanting to do here needs to be for the wider benefit of all and not just the kind of thing where people can bounce ideas off one another and the like. That's how I've been treating the thread because that's how most threads like this I've seen operate. I wasn't trying to be the selfish rear end in a top hat, but I wasn't going to ask questions about the things I didn't need help with or that I could easily Google search the answer for. I just won't bother unless I have an actual question about writing. But thanks for taking the time to say that in a manner that didn't read like you were trying to be so edgy. I didn't honestly know that the thread was for another thing. systran posted:Advice for Tube Knight: Worry way more about plot before you try to cram biblical symbolism and world building in. It's so easy to have a cool world and a tacked-on plot, I've done it in a 50,000 word novel. Oops! I kind of think that the best plots and world-building are the kind that link together and share close knit themes. It's always been a bother to read things where the plot doesn't seem to take into consideration the world they live in or vice versa.
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Apr 3, 2014 02:54
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If you don't have a good story/plot it doesn't matter how great your premise is.Axel Serenity posted:When do you guys typically start to send out your submissions, anyway? After the first draft? After a couple passes? Never send your first draft unless you want to get  ed out by the agent/publisher/editor. Give it at least two to three passes first. You can do it by yourself first to spot really dumb errors you don't want people to see (stuff like "the cold clamness in his eyes") (yes I seriously wrote that recently, ugggghhh), then go through with other people WITHOUT telling them your plot/message and see what they get / do not get. In reviewing alone, I've found printing out the draft and sitting down with a red pen to be immensely useful, because what is familiar to you onscreen becomes a new beast on paper. It's sorta like how artists when drawing portraits sometimes flip the pictures horizontally to see it from a new perspective. If it's inconvenient, changing the whole thing to a different font is also supposed to help. E: CB_Tube_Knight posted:But there needs to be a clearer idea that what you're wanting to do here needs to be for the wider benefit of all and not just the kind of thing where people can bounce ideas off one another and the like. I just read your post in full and noticed this. It reads like you are blaming the thread for performing the function it's designated for, whereas you alone remain the individual person who has confused it for something completely different. I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to say here, but perhaps you should take up the advice of looking for another place online for the activity you would like to most indulge in. The Saddest Rhino fucked around with this message at 03:21 on Apr 3, 2014 |
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Apr 3, 2014 03:12
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Axel Serenity posted:Thanks a ton for this link. I had no idea there was an online resource for listings, so the $30 I would have spent buying Writer's Market can go towards submissions. Don't pay for submissions! Unless you mean postage or whatever. Money moves from the publisher/agent to the author, not the other way around.
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Apr 3, 2014 03:17
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General Battuta posted:Don't pay for submissions! Unless you mean postage or whatever. Money moves from the publisher/agent to the author, not the other way around. I've heard that this isn't always the case for contests, including some reputable ones. No? Agents and magazines shouldn't charge though.
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Apr 3, 2014 06:15
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