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Here's a direction of play problem. To which I don't know the answer, because it's from an ongoing game I'm playing on OGS. (I've made my move, don't worry, I'm not polling the audience for help). Black has just lived in the corner with the marked move, so White has sente to play wherever he likes, pretty much. This is a great position for directional analysis, because all the shapes are tidy and tactically fairly simple, while there are plenty of appealing moves you can look at. What do you think is the biggest thing for White to do? 
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Apr 1, 2014 16:24
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Ddk answer: Q10 to take a large extension and get a double wing ( Two extensions off of a 4-4, right?) off of your 4-4 while starting to form a moyo
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Apr 1, 2014 16:39
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xopods posted:Here's a direction of play problem. To which I don't know the answer, because it's from an ongoing game I'm playing on OGS. (I've made my move, don't worry, I'm not polling the audience for help). I would claim some more space, at R11. Though solidifying my position at R15 is appealing as well. I like R11 the most though because it gives me potential for that entire corner and stakes a claim in empty territory over which I already have some influence. The other groups definitely need some more work but they don't have the point potential that the upper right corner does in my opinion.
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Apr 1, 2014 16:50
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Kheldragar posted:Ddk answer: Q10 to take a large extension and get a double wing ( Two extensions off of a 4-4, right?) off of your 4-4 while starting to form a moyo Is this a good board position to be making a big moyo, though?
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Apr 1, 2014 16:54
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I would really want to legendary macaque at c1 but something like r14 sounds like the right answer securing 4-4 kinda feels wasteful sometimes
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Apr 1, 2014 16:57
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Symbolic Butt posted:I would really want to legendary macaque at c1 but something like r14 sounds like the right answer C1 doesn't even work due to the cut at G2 and would be an endgame move if it did. R14 is what I played. I dig zhuang's suggestion of R11 as well, though I'm not so sure about R15 instead; seems too slow.
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Apr 1, 2014 17:06
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No one's thinking of F8 or N3? Or maybe D13 as a probe?
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Apr 1, 2014 17:16
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Those seem smaller than r14 to me.
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Apr 1, 2014 17:22
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Xom posted:Those seem smaller than r14 to me. They did to me too, which is why I played R14, but they both have pretty big implications for the balance of power... N3 makes Black's lower corner thin and White's group pretty much bulletproof, while F8 finishes the erasure of Black's influence from the wall below, while setting up for a later attack on Black's one-eyed group. D13 may or may not be a good preliminary move to set up F8. The logic behind it is that if B gets a chance to play B13 later, he can then answer D13 with something other than C13. Getting D13 for C13 immediately ensures that White has B reduced to one eye or maybe half an eye. EDIT: This seems like a reasonable game for White, for instance, though it's hard to say whether it's better or worse than the position after White simply plays at R14. The timing of D13 is complicated, however. B may ignore it after White has reinforced the top side with 3, and play a peep of his own with D8 or something. 
xopods fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Apr 1, 2014 |
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Apr 1, 2014 17:31
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xopods posted:They did to me too, which is why I played R14, but they both have pretty big implications for the balance of power... N3 makes Black's lower corner thin and White's group pretty much bulletproof, while F8 finishes the erasure of Black's influence from the wall below, while setting up for a later attack on Black's one-eyed group. I like the plays in the upper right corner because it's all about potential. The play N1 is solid but that shape was already pretty well set and as you play towards the center black will play towards your upper right corner and end up controlling a lot of your potential there whereas if you play down from the top you might end up controlling the bulk of that area. The plays on the upper left seem even less important to me because there is so little potential there, it seems more like end game moves where small plays are all that remain.
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Apr 1, 2014 17:59
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zhuangcg posted:I like the plays in the upper right corner because it's all about potential. The play N1 is solid but that shape was already pretty well set and as you play towards the center black will play towards your upper right corner and end up controlling a lot of your potential there whereas if you play down from the top you might end up controlling the bulk of that area. The plays on the upper left seem even less important to me because there is so little potential there, it seems more like end game moves where small plays are all that remain. You mean the 5-6 exchange, I assume, since there's nothing else being played in the top left? The meaning of that exchange is to make sure the Black group is limited to one eye, which is important for the balance of power. It's not about territory. If Black ignores it and White pushes through, then Black is going to be turned into a no-eyed dumpling, so it's important to respond and it's therefore an effective kikashi for W. The only question, like I said, is whether, if timed wrong, B can respond with something like D8 instead of connecting. Before W plays 3, his upper left group isn't totally safe yet. So maybe if you start with 5 (even before 1) it runs a stronger chance of being answered, since pushing in at D12 and then through at C13 would not only reduce Black to zero eyes, but also make White super thick. xopods fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Apr 1, 2014 |
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Apr 1, 2014 18:05
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9×9 Go Has Been Solved
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Apr 1, 2014 23:11
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April first is never funny.
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Apr 1, 2014 23:37
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xopods posted:Here's a direction of play problem. To which I don't know the answer, because it's from an ongoing game I'm playing on OGS. (I've made my move, don't worry, I'm not polling the audience for help). I'd play r14 without a single thought. The right side is the biggest area of the board, and black has his formation closed off on the third line... there's no reason to approach him at all. That leaves r14 as the best, most obvious place to play. Black's next move after r14 has to be disappointing, as well - if he extends to n3, you can't call that sente, and if he plays on the right side too, he has nowhere attractive to play.
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Apr 2, 2014 02:44
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Under 15 posted:I'd play r14 without a single thought. The right side is the biggest area of the board, and black has his formation closed off on the third line... there's no reason to approach him at all. That leaves r14 as the best, most obvious place to play. Black's next move after r14 has to be disappointing, as well - if he extends to n3, you can't call that sente, and if he plays on the right side too, he has nowhere attractive to play. Okay, so it seems we have consensus on R14. I don't know that this means it's actually the pro move, but certainly we can agree that it's a very good move and if not the best, then not appreciably worse than the best at an amateur level. I'd be fine with calling that the solution to the problem. As for Black's response, I'm surprised you didn't mention the most obvious move, attaching at Q17, which is what he did, and what I would have done in his place. So, second direction of play problem. White's response. A, B are common responses. C is not unthinkable and has come up at least once in pro play. Which do we like? 
xopods fucked around with this message at 13:25 on Apr 2, 2014 |
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Apr 2, 2014 13:16
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xopods posted:Okay, so it seems we have consensus on R14. I don't know that this means it's actually the pro move, but certainly we can agree that it's a very good move and if not the best, then not appreciably worse than the best at an amateur level. I'd be fine with calling that the solution to the problem. I like A. It feels like it limits any expansion by Black in that corner and since it can't grow it's easier to fill any eyes that may occur.
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Apr 2, 2014 15:32
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zhuangcg posted:I like A. It feels like it limits any expansion by Black in that corner and since it can't grow it's easier to fill any eyes that may occur. What do you mean by "fill any eyes that may occur"? The standard sequence following A has Black living in the corner.
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Apr 2, 2014 15:49
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Let's look at some variations to help make our decision. If White hanes outside (A), then it's pretty common for this to happen: Diagram A1  However, Black could also make a staircase and then it probably turns out like this: Diagram A2  ------ If White hanes inside (B), then it's pretty common for this to happen: Diagram B1  However, Black could again try a staircase, but then White probably reverses course and gives him the corner after all, like this: Diagram B2a  Or maybe White wants sente and the right side: Diagram B2b  ------ So, unless someone wants to bring up a variation for one player or the other that I haven't considered in these diagrams (which is entirely possible, there are plenty of variations), the question is: Given the whole board situation... Does White prefer B2a or B2b? If A, does Black prefer A1 or A2? If B, does Black prefer B1 or {B2a|B2b} (White's choice)? Putting all this together, given Black's options, does White end up better with A or B? xopods fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Apr 2, 2014 |
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Apr 2, 2014 16:19
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xopods posted:lots of cool pictures I don't play standard variations so I would play white at P17 and then if black played R16 I would play S17. My point from the last post was that by playing A it limits black to that corner which given the limited area is easier to fight in because there are fewer plays. I like to try and force my opponent to the edges and stop them from running into open spaces so that is what my thinking is for playing at A.
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Apr 2, 2014 16:56
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zhuangcg posted:I don't play standard variations so I would play white at P17 and then if black played R16 I would play S17. My point from the last post was that by playing A it limits black to that corner which given the limited area is easier to fight in because there are fewer plays. I like to try and force my opponent to the edges and stop them from running into open spaces so that is what my thinking is for playing at A. Do I mind if I ask how strong you are? S17 seems utterly terrible to me at first glance, and it's a move I'd never have considered, but I'm playing out some variations and many of them do seem to result in Black struggling out to the centre with no eyes, with White being okay on both sides. It still feels like a trick play, mind you, and there are 0 examples of it in pro play. But I'm not entirely sure how to deal with it. I mean, here are some of the variations I've looked at. The first one is the one I think is best for Black, but it still feels like he's been tricked. The others seem even worse. http://eidogo.com/#ypOU3dMr xopods fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Apr 2, 2014 |
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Apr 2, 2014 17:30
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xopods posted:Do I mind if I ask how strong you are? S17 seems utterly terrible to me at first glance, and it's a move I'd never have considered, but I'm playing out some variations and many of them do seem to result in Black struggling out to the centre with no eyes, with White being okay on both sides. I'm not sure what you mean by trick play so that's not my intent. It just seems like a good way to stop black from having an eye there. And, I am a novice player so don't look to me for fancy moves or whatever. That being said, I'm not shy about going on record for saying what I would try in hypothetical situations and I don't mind making mistakes in the process of learning. e. I would have played S18 at move 6 instead of S16.
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Apr 2, 2014 17:57
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zhuangcg posted:e. I would have played S18 at move 6 instead of S16. Another move I wouldn't think of in a million years. How do you respond to P18, then? http://eidogo.com/#DsQFWAOG
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Apr 2, 2014 18:12
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I'd hane on the outside and put black in the corner the way A1 describes. Once you do that, you have sente to grab the ideal extension to r10 and cockblock black's two-space extension from r6. Then black's under some pressure to play n3 to secure his corner, which probably means taking gote.
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Apr 2, 2014 21:56
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Under 15 posted:I'd hane on the outside and put black in the corner the way A1 describes. Once you do that, you have sente to grab the ideal extension to r10 and cockblock black's two-space extension from r6. Then black's under some pressure to play n3 to secure his corner, which probably means taking gote. But you don't get to choose between A1 and A2; Black does. Does Black prefer A1 or A2?
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Apr 2, 2014 22:03
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xopods posted:Another move I wouldn't think of in a million years. I would connect at Q16 and then if black played O18 I would drop M18 to limit black's expansion along the bottom.
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Apr 3, 2014 05:20
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 White avoids being tricked by B 9. But what if for whatever reason Black already has the ladder?
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Apr 3, 2014 06:53
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zhuangcg posted:I would connect at Q16 and then if black played O18 I would drop M18 to limit black's expansion along the bottom. Okay, so when you say you're a novice, you mean you're a DDK, right? I couldn't decide at first if these moves were nonsense or something I just didn't understand, but M18 is clearly nonsense. If you play M18, B just captures the corner stones with S16 and is alive, and your position is in tatters.
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Apr 3, 2014 13:20
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Anyway, since there isn't much discussion going on of the actual direction problem, let me try to move things along. My opinion is that A1 is the result we want, but we can't expect Black to be obedient. If A1 is good for us, then Black will play as in A2. As for option B, I think we'd be quite happy with B2b, so Black will also not allow that to happen, and instead choose B1. So that leaves us asking whether we prefer A2 or B1. Here are the resulting board positions, which are directly comparable because White has sente in both. As you can deduce from the fact that the moves aren't numbered in that diagram, I chose A2 (and then pressed at P16 as shown in the diagram), but which do you prefer and why? 
xopods fucked around with this message at 13:38 on Apr 3, 2014 |
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Apr 3, 2014 13:35
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xopods posted:Okay, so when you say you're a novice, you mean you're a DDK, right? I couldn't decide at first if these moves were nonsense or something I just didn't understand, but M18 is clearly nonsense. I'm sorry that I confused you with my usage of the term novice; it is so much harder to understand than the acronym DDK, which practically explodes with meaning in comparison. You're, of course, correct my feeble attempts at conversation are clearly meaningless and a lowly acronym such as myself has no business attempting to speak GO with grey-haired eminences such as yourself. I'm so sorry that I wasted your valuable time with my meaningless utterances. Please have a wonderful day and thank you once again for your extremely helpful critique of my "plays".
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Apr 3, 2014 16:23
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zhuangcg posted:I'm sorry that I confused you with my usage of the term novice; it is so much harder to understand than the acronym DDK, which practically explodes with meaning in comparison. You're, of course, correct my feeble attempts at conversation are clearly meaningless and a lowly acronym such as myself has no business attempting to speak GO with grey-haired eminences such as yourself. I'm so sorry that I wasted your valuable time with my meaningless utterances. Please have a wonderful day and thank you once again for your extremely helpful critique of my "plays". This, by the way, is a lovely post. He was not criticizing you, and novice can be a large spread since it's very subjective.
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Apr 3, 2014 16:32
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silvergoose posted:This, by the way, is a lovely post. He was not criticizing you, and novice can be a large spread since it's very subjective. As I stated in my earlier posts, I am a novice or a beginner and I fully expect to make mistakes and by publishing those mistakes in a public forum I will naturally embarrass myself to some extent. But dismissing my words as meaningless is a criticism and then asking me to agree to being some jargon-y acronym which means nothing to me is a further twist of the rhetorical knife and is clearly meant to belittle or demean.
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Apr 3, 2014 16:51
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zhuangcg posted:As I stated in my earlier posts, I am a novice or a beginner and I fully expect to make mistakes and by publishing those mistakes in a public forum I will naturally embarrass myself to some extent. But dismissing my words as meaningless is a criticism and then asking me to agree to being some jargon-y acronym which means nothing to me is a further twist of the rhetorical knife and is clearly meant to belittle or demean. Saying your move is nonsense is a criticism of your play, not of you. DDK = double digit kyu, i.e. in the first twenty levels of rank (30 down to 10).
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Apr 3, 2014 17:06
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A seems clearly less comfortable for Black?
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Apr 3, 2014 18:08
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Sigh. Look, as silvergoose points out, I wasn't belittling you personally, I was saying that it had become apparent that the line of play you were proposing has no merit. This was meant to be a discussion of direction of play, not a play-by-post contact fight between a mid dan and a total beginner. That's why I asked how strong you were. If you were 6 dan or something, then I would ask you to post the full sequence you're imagining to show why White can do better in the game than in the diagrams I posted. But it's not worth having a multi-page argument with you to prove why your weak moves are in fact weak. That wasn't the point of the problem. Go is a complicated game. There are lots of moves and lots of options at each move. We could have gone on forever with me showing some variation that doesn't work and you saying "no, wait, I would play move 5 here instead," and then I show you why that doesn't work, and then you say "no, move 7 should be here," and so on until we reach the end of the game. xopods fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Apr 3, 2014 |
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Apr 3, 2014 18:10
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Xom posted:A seems clearly less comfortable for Black? I agree. Also, White has a lot more territory in the corner. That's why I chose the line I did. And I think that's the answer to the problem. That hane outside is better only if Black goes along with your wishes, but if he's going to insist on establishing a position on the top side one way or another, you're better off taking the corner territory and undermining his position, even if it means giving him better access to the centre and more potential against your top side group. Note that on an empty board B would be better because White can attach at N16 to build a powerful wall... but there's little potential for that because Black is low and strong-ish in the lower right and has thickness everywhere. There's no moyo to be had, really. (That's also why Khel's proposal of Q10 in the first problem is probably wrong. Black's power in the lower right is such that White will never make anything in the centre.)
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Apr 3, 2014 18:15
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Anyway... if anyone's interested, here's my commentary on a three-stone game I played with Xom over the weekend. It was kind of back and forth. I felt I was doing well, destroying his moyo by living everywhere, but then he found some moves I hadn't noticed to make a new central territory that I wasn't able to erase due to my own weaknesses. That put him a bit in the lead, but then I clawed my way back in during the late endgame. Then he committed a couple of blunders and had to resign, but my best guess is that if he hadn't it still would have been W+0.5 Also, I think I screwed up and left him the potential to kill one of my groups in the top right corner, but he didn't capitalize. http://eidogo.com/#1QaWC3pcw
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Apr 3, 2014 18:17
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zhuangcg posted:I'm sorry that I confused you with my usage of the term novice
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Apr 3, 2014 18:20
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Xom posted:The problem is that "I don't play standard variations / I am a novice" is something a strong player who feels like being obtuse might say. Yes, exactly this. I took "novice" as you evading the question, because it could mean you're actually a total beginner, but I've equally heard lots of very strong players describe themselves as "novices" out of (IMO fake) humility simply because they aren't professionals.
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Apr 3, 2014 18:29
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Lots of people have the opinion that if you aren't 1p+, your go opinion is invalid.
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Apr 3, 2014 18:32
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xopods posted:Anyway... if anyone's interested, here's my commentary on a three-stone game I played with Xom over the weekend.  Why doesn't White just extend to B in this variation?
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Apr 3, 2014 19:11
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