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Hypation posted:And Snowden would have leaked it. Don't some Truthers think that Snowden did leak proof of a 9/11 coverup, we just never hear about it because
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Apr 3, 2014 10:52
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This threads reminds me that I should really go to reddit/911truth and do an Ask me Anything.
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Apr 3, 2014 10:58
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/posts/SUSPICIOUS-MINDS A new Adam Curtis post about how society became post-modern. 'If one looks back now it is possible to see it as a kind of revolution in which both left and right were collaborating to overthrow an old, decayed patrician culture. And as it grew in the 1980s and 90s it would give rise to something that went beyond politics - to a general culture of suspicion and distrust of everyone in authority.' 9/11 was, as Heath Ledger Joker would put it, the last little push into madness.
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Apr 3, 2014 12:55
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Post 9-11 User posted:Paranoia and fear is what a populace to believe that jet fuel (nearly all of which exploded on impact) could cause skyscrapers to implode perfectly. People think Saddam did 9/11? Also, the buildings didn't implode. Have you seen the video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZkr0A9633Q That's an implosion. An implosion doesn't take out the entire loving area. Go jerk off to Alex Jones videos. e: Why the hell would a government inside-job group make the buildings implode into their footprints, as you claim they did? What, they want to minimize collateral damage now? It's much easier to make a building fall down if you don't give a poo poo where it lands.
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Apr 3, 2014 19:42
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SocketWrench posted:That picture is really neat. I always understood the structure, but until now I had no visual concept of what it really looked like When I was a kid I went to visit a relative who worked in the South Tower (this was about 1997 or so, and they moved buildings entirely long before 9/11). On their particular floor somewhere in the 60s or so, you could seriously see clear across the whole floor, on all sides around the elevator/stair core. Certainly an entirely different experience from later having to interview at companies in more traditional skyscrapers in midtown in my 20s. You still got a lot of open space there but nothing like the towers.
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Apr 3, 2014 22:13
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Install Windows posted:When I was a kid I went to visit a relative who worked in the South Tower (this was about 1997 or so, and they moved buildings entirely long before 9/11). On their particular floor somewhere in the 60s or so, you could seriously see clear across the whole floor, on all sides around the elevator/stair core. No you see every building ever is built the same. Wake up.
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Apr 3, 2014 22:16
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Hypation posted:And Snowden would have leaked it. That's actually a conspiracy thing now, claiming Snowden revealed files about 9/11, lizardmen, aliens, moon bases etc. A lot of them are printed in papers in Russia, then the Coast to Coast crew gets them and acts like they are real.
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Apr 3, 2014 23:05
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Conspiracy heads are best likened to zealously religious people. Rational argument doesn't work with people who operate on faith. If you believe, in the face of all evidence, that Bigfoot shot lasers from his eyes with the collaboration of Elvis to destroy the evidence of the sound stages for the moon landings at the WTC, you're just as hopeless as someone who believes that Jesus rode a dinosaur to work in Palestine, or that Muhammad flew to heaven from Jerusalem on a white horse.
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Apr 3, 2014 23:09
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twistedmentat posted:That's actually a conspiracy thing now, claiming Snowden revealed files about 9/11, lizardmen, aliens, moon bases etc. I really can't understand why people support Snowden. Lets ignore the morality and / or debate regarding leaking secret documents for a moment. Showden leaked the documents from China, and then moved to Russia. Do people honestly believe that he got nothing out of the Chinese and Russian governments in exchange for secret documents? He simply sold important information and leaked some documents to make it look like a bigger thing.
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Apr 3, 2014 23:52
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Grouchy Smurf posted:I really can't understand why people support Snowden. Lets ignore the morality and / or debate regarding leaking secret documents for a moment. Showden leaked the documents from China, and then moved to Russia. Do people honestly believe that he got nothing out of the Chinese and Russian governments in exchange for secret documents? He simply sold important information and leaked some documents to make it look like a bigger thing. Sold information about the US government actively doing evil things. Things that really needed to come to light and weren't going to otherwise. Personally, I think of the Russia/HK (and HK is different from mainland China) angle as more of an escape route. But let's suppose for a moment that it was purely a mixture of spit and profit motive. He wanted to make a buck to make the US government look bad and got paid by foreign powers to do it. Or he just straight up got paid by foreign powers to make the US government look bad. Does that in any way excuse the gross negligence/outright evil/hosed-up corruption the US government was doing? Would we be better not knowing they existed or knowing that they existed? What you are asking is, "For the moment, let's ignore the morality of doing the right thing. Given that, isn't he an rear end in a top hat for conspiring with foreign powers against our government?" That's some Red Scare level poo poo, man.
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Apr 4, 2014 00:01
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Grouchy Smurf posted:I really can't understand why people support Snowden. Lets ignore the morality and / or debate regarding leaking secret documents for a moment. Showden leaked the documents from China, and then moved to Russia. Do people honestly believe that he got nothing out of the Chinese and Russian governments in exchange for secret documents? He simply sold important information and leaked some documents to make it look like a bigger thing.
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Apr 4, 2014 00:04
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Shbobdb posted:Sold information about the US government actively doing evil things. Things that really needed to come to light and weren't going to otherwise. The leaking information part is hugely controversial. You can find people debate in favour of either side, with some pretty solid arguments. What I don't get is why Snowden is labelled as a hero. Bradley Manning is a hero. He did what he thought was right, stood up, confessed, and took the consequences like a man. Snowden was apparently fed up with the injustice in his country, leaked/sold documents, run away from justice and moved into a country that is renown for repressing its citizens. Hell, he is probably living in a house with a jacuzzi and sauna right now. I just... hate the guy. Edit: Apparently Bradley Manning is now officially known as Chelsea Elizabeth Manning. The "like a man" phase is clearly in bad taste now. Grouchy Smurf fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Apr 4, 2014 |
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Apr 4, 2014 00:19
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I'm on the same page, dude went into Rosenberg territory. Internationalism has been dead for a long while.
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Apr 4, 2014 00:23
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Snowden's permission to asylum in Russia is dependent on him not upsetting the Russians too much. But that's to be expected.
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Apr 4, 2014 00:37
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I just remembered, there was an awesome video called 'screw loose change', that took all the data the latest version of loose change had and proved how they were making poo poo up, editing video, or outright lying about information, even had a digitally done reconstruction of the plane hitting the Pentagon pointing out all of the damage done being consistent with a plane and jet engines, like the clipped generating having a rounded gouge knocked out of it due to the jet engine. I cannot find it for the sake of my life now however.
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Apr 4, 2014 00:51
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Grouchy Smurf posted:The leaking information part is hugely controversial. You can find people debate in favour of either side, with some pretty solid arguments. What I don't get is why Snowden is labelled as a hero. Bradley Manning is a hero. He did what he thought was right, stood up, confessed, and took the consequences like a man. Snowden was apparently fed up with the injustice in his country, leaked/sold documents, run away from justice and moved into a country that is renown for repressing its citizens. Hell, he is probably living in a house with a jacuzzi and sauna right now. So, what you are saying is that if you want to take a stand against injustice you have to submit yourself to that injustice? How the gently caress does that make sense? Chelsea is in solitary for what she did, and is widely mocked by the media when they talk about her at all. Snowden is sipping vodka and sampling caviar while we are still talking about him. Not only is it better for him personally, it is better for us as a whole because that kind of foreign patronage keeps him in the news. We need whistle-blower protections. Absent that, taking a sweet deal from a foreign power seems like a fantastic idea since it encourages other whistle-blowers. They know they'll have a safe haven. Martyrdom is nice and all but relying on a society built on martyrs is a piss-poor way to go about things.
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Apr 4, 2014 00:57
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Whistle-blowers change nothing. Nothing has really changed from the things we learned from Edward or Chelsea. The only difference is that Edward lives in another country and might or might not received a pay-check. He doesn't really care about you or me. He just selected the best option for him. Chelsea, also doesn't care about you or me. But she did what she thought was right, which is the reason why she is in prison. I am fairly certain she could have sold sensitive information, move to Thailand and get the hormone and surgery she wants before anyone knew what the gently caress happened. Honestly the only thing that changed from all those leaks is that the US goverment was forced to spend alot of money on damage control, and will have to spend more money in order to be more cautious during future illegal actions. Wars are still going on, Guantanamo is still running, people are still being spied upon, "things" are still getting overpaid, rich people are still able to buy everything, people are still illegally arrested. I guess Alex Jones got to right a couple of new books. The world does not need whistle-blowers. It needs good people. And good people are the selfless ones. ps: Information sucks. The public doesn't really have a use for it.
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Apr 4, 2014 01:21
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If, for the moment, we accept your assertion that both accomplished nothing then why in god's name should we venerate Chelsea? She threw away her life for nothing! I think they both accomplished a great deal, hell, the right vilifies Snowden but uses his information to drat the Obama admin all the time. Ditto with Chelsea. They also provide a context for history. Even if nothing changes now it gives future historians context and that's good. Hopefully it does more than that but gotta take what you can get. But if we assume they accomplished nothing, why venerate a senseless martyr over a savvy manipulator?
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Apr 4, 2014 01:27
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Because she performed a good deed by acting selflessly on what she thought was an injustice, in an attempt to help others. It makes no difference whatsoever if she succeed or not. Tank man possibly died a painful death. The "only" thing he did was delay some tanks for 60 seconds. It's not what you do, it's why you do it.
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Apr 4, 2014 01:33
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TheImmigrant posted:Conspiracy heads are best likened to zealously religious people. Rational argument doesn't work with people who operate on faith. If you believe, in the face of all evidence, that Bigfoot shot lasers from his eyes with the collaboration of Elvis to destroy the evidence of the sound stages for the moon landings at the WTC, you're just as hopeless as someone who believes that Jesus rode a dinosaur to work in Palestine, or that Muhammad flew to heaven from Jerusalem on a white horse. The best conspiracies are recursive conspiracies because it is literally impossible to get to the bottom of them which means they can never be disproven and therefore they cannot die.
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Apr 4, 2014 01:35
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Grouchy Smurf posted:Because she performed a good deed by acting selflessly on what she thought was an injustice, in an attempt to help others. It makes no difference whatsoever if she succeed or not. That is a really hosed up and ineffective moral system you've got there. Good luck with that.
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Apr 4, 2014 01:39
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Shbobdb posted:That is a really hosed up and ineffective moral system you've got there. Good luck with that. Ya I have to agree. It's a pretty bleak Shakespearean/fake Victorian moral superiority argument he's making. You should always strive to the do the right thing but if you can do the right thing and not get hosed for it of course you do that instead. Pook Good Mook fucked around with this message at 02:06 on Apr 4, 2014 |
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Apr 4, 2014 01:53
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So, you are suggesting that the circumstances do not matter. For you, it's identical if a person donates one of his kidneys to a random strange, and if he does so while receiving 10 million. For you, it's the same if you donate all your money to charity, or donate all your money to charity knowing that you will get GBE. For you, doing something "good" because you believe in it, is equivalent to doing something "good" when you know that you will be rewarded. And I am the one with the problematic moral system. I think we derailed the topic enough.
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Apr 4, 2014 01:55
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Grouchy Smurf posted:And I am the one with the problematic moral system. Look at this coward running away, trying to avoid culpability!
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Apr 4, 2014 01:56
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Grouchy Smurf posted:And I am the one with the problematic moral system. Yes. You're the one who expects people to martyr themselves.
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Apr 4, 2014 02:19
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E-Tank posted:I just remembered, there was an awesome video called 'screw loose change', that took all the data the latest version of loose change had and proved how they were making poo poo up, editing video, or outright lying about information, even had a digitally done reconstruction of the plane hitting the Pentagon pointing out all of the damage done being consistent with a plane and jet engines, like the clipped generating having a rounded gouge knocked out of it due to the jet engine. I cannot find it for the sake of my life now however. I haven't been able to find it since Google Video shut down.
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Apr 4, 2014 02:37
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Grouchy Smurf posted:The leaking information part is hugely controversial. You can find people debate in favour of either side, with some pretty solid arguments. What I don't get is why Snowden is labelled as a hero. Bradley Manning is a hero. He did what he thought was right, stood up, confessed, and took the consequences like a man. Snowden was apparently fed up with the injustice in his country, leaked/sold documents, run away from justice and moved into a country that is renown for repressing its citizens. Hell, he is probably living in a house with a jacuzzi and sauna right now
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Apr 4, 2014 03:01
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Both Manning and Snowden revealed important information about what our government was doing, that we should have known. I'm kind of uncomfortable with the amount of information that Manning revealed (I could be wrong about this, but a lot of it was just the usual US diplomatic business, and so she disrupted a lot of people's jobs and careers as an aside to the actual wrongdoing that was also exposed) and I'm kind of uncomfortable with Snowden's character, but that's not really relevant to the issues that they raised, now that the information is out there.
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Apr 4, 2014 03:23
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Yea, my only problem with Snowden is he just comes off as such a smug douchebag, but then he is a super hard core libertarian Paulite, so that is to be expected.
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Apr 4, 2014 04:04
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Install Windows posted:When I was a kid I went to visit a relative who worked in the South Tower (this was about 1997 or so, and they moved buildings entirely long before 9/11). On their particular floor somewhere in the 60s or so, you could seriously see clear across the whole floor, on all sides around the elevator/stair core. I found this image which really helps drive home the point.  Shbobdb posted:So, what you are saying is that if you want to take a stand against injustice you have to submit yourself to that injustice? How the gently caress does that make sense? Snowden revealed the atrocities of a government which disappears people and tortures them for years and people wonder why he ran for it? Manning's failure was in trusting a hacker who led her on, actively deceived her and then turned her in the first opportunity to make himself famous. Does an accidental martyr still count under the Grouchy Smurf rules of puritanical self immolation?
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Apr 4, 2014 04:44
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Gorilla Salad posted:Snowden revealed the atrocities of a government which disappears people and tortures them for years and people wonder why he ran for it? People are wondering why he ran for it to two countries that had been known to do that even more (and hadn't managed to plan how to get to similarly sheltering countries that did not have such blatant records, indeed why he hadn't seemed to plan at all).
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Apr 4, 2014 04:50
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Man those ceilings were claustrophobicly low in the WTC. Did that particular office just drop its suspended ceiling way too low or were they all only 8' or so? There's something about the huge wide horizontal space with a low ceiling and narrow windows that makes for a pretty horrible looking work environment. Is it even 8'?? Looks barely a few inches about a door frame on the right there.
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Apr 4, 2014 04:59
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Baronjutter posted:Man those ceilings were claustrophobicly low in the WTC. Did that particular office just drop its suspended ceiling way too low or were they all only 8' or so? There's something about the huge wide horizontal space with a low ceiling and narrow windows that makes for a pretty horrible looking work environment. Is it even 8'?? Looks barely a few inches about a door frame on the right there. I can't find that information on Wikipedia at least, but if it was 1,368 feet to the roof and 20 less to the top floor, that gives 110 sections of 12.25 feet each. Discounting about two or three feet for the floors themselves, it seems like it would be around nine or ten feet of space per floor. You might just be getting a false positive from the perspective, that camera's pretty high off the floor.
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Apr 4, 2014 05:06
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Baronjutter posted:Man those ceilings were claustrophobicly low in the WTC. Did that particular office just drop its suspended ceiling way too low or were they all only 8' or so? There's something about the huge wide horizontal space with a low ceiling and narrow windows that makes for a pretty horrible looking work environment. Is it even 8'?? Looks barely a few inches about a door frame on the right there. There was a good 11 feet between the structural floor on each level and the bottom of the floors on the next level up.
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Apr 4, 2014 05:07
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E-Tank posted:I just remembered, there was an awesome video called 'screw loose change', that took all the data the latest version of loose change had and proved how they were making poo poo up, editing video, or outright lying about information, even had a digitally done reconstruction of the plane hitting the Pentagon pointing out all of the damage done being consistent with a plane and jet engines, like the clipped generating having a rounded gouge knocked out of it due to the jet engine. I cannot find it for the sake of my life now however. It's probably been removed since it was done some time ago...I think "Hurr loose change durr" is on like its 5th remake to cover the poo poo everyone else pointed out being wrong
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Apr 4, 2014 08:35
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Thanks for this thread. It's been helping me put in perspective the poo poo my dad has been saying about "The end times" and "The New World Order" since I was a kid. This week it's Jacob Rothschild orchestrating the Malaysia 370 disappearance so he could get full control of a patent (because that's how patents work)
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Apr 4, 2014 08:50
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U.T. Raptor posted:Not to mention that if he was concerned about government corruption, he picked one hell of an ironic country to flee to! Obviously it's all part of a long con in which he ingratiates himself with the Russians, then steals intelligence and flees back to the US, trading it for immunity. It'll make for a great movie in about 15 years.
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Apr 4, 2014 15:41
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Has Snowden been holding Russia up as an exemplar of human rights and transparency? I'm ambivalent about Snowden's whistleblowing, but his choice of country for asylum is a completely separate issue.
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Apr 4, 2014 15:56
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TheImmigrant posted:Has Snowden been holding Russia up as an exemplar of human rights and transparency? I'm ambivalent about Snowden's whistleblowing, but his choice of country for asylum is a completely separate issue. Don't forget he didn't chose Russia, that's where he was when the US canceled his passport and Russia used that as an excuse to prevent him from leaving. Remember all the news media reporting from the empty seat on the flight he was supposed to be on to... Venezuela I think? He's been petitioning various European countries for asylum so he can leave Russia for awhile. He clearly would rather be somewhere else, although I'm not sure he's the type that would be happy anywhere that actually exists.
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Apr 4, 2014 16:07
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My office still has that exact same cube furniture today in 2014!
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Apr 4, 2014 16:41
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