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Hra Mormo posted:A couple pages late but this got me thinking, is he really? Tywin I mean. Off the top of my head I don't recall him ever being shown as a particularly savvy military leader. In the rebellion his entire plan is to wait and see who wins. In the books he commands what, Blackwater which is irrelevant because of the input of the Tyrells and Tyrion's stratagem, and that one fight where he basically falls for Robb's ruse and would've lost Casterly Rock as a direct result if not for Theon's treason. A masterful politician is a given, but does he ultimately have any aptitude for warfare? You're underestimating how good of a move retreating to Harrenhall was. It allowed him to be within a few days ride of all the major players. He also sent out the Mountain that Rapes to burn and pillage the Riverlands, something which worked extremely well since it got Robb to disperse his forces which deprived him of several thousand troops (had he kept those forces it's entirely possible that he might've been able to besiege Casterly Rock and at the very least would've been at numbers parity with the Lannisters). He also started building up another army under the command of Ser Stafford for a pincer attack on Robb. His plan only failed because of Robb's warg magic, which since it hasn't been seen in Westeros in a few centuries isn't something he could account for. Now I'm not saying he's a great general. Robb is arguably a better tactician and Tywin's strategems generally aren't very unique, but he is solid and methodical.
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Apr 4, 2014 14:02
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In the end "Kingslayer" is a pretty awesome nickname so I'm happy things occurred exactly as they did.
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Apr 4, 2014 14:32
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Tywin exterminated the Westerland's equivalent to the Boltons when he was like, 16, so he's certainly not a bad military commander,
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Apr 4, 2014 14:42
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tin can made man posted:Tywin exterminated the Westerland's equivalent to the Boltons when he was like, 16, so he's certainly not a bad military commander, He's not bad, but he doesn't have a spark of brilliance/adaptability that Robb has. What he DOES have (and it shows up in his personalty) is the ability to think long term and ruthlessly grind down his opponent.
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Apr 4, 2014 14:51
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tin can made man posted:Tywin exterminated the Westerland's equivalent to the Boltons when he was like, 16, so he's certainly not a bad military commander, I would say that's more a testament to his ruthlessness than his tactical acumen, he already had all the advantages in his dealings with the Reynes and Tarbecks. When it's the rightful Warden of the West vs two upstart rebel houses, it's no great shock when the former wins out. The Reynes and Tarbecks simply believed they wouldn't have to put up or shut up because of Tytos' weakness. Lovechop posted:so what was sex like Haven't you read these books? It involves fat pink masts and large dark nipples. Plus the glistening wetness of a Myrish swamp.
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Apr 4, 2014 14:56
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The thing is I'm not giving points for solid or not bad because you have to take into account that these people all have advisers. Robb had them, listened to them, yet his strategy was "very Robb". You wouldn't expect Robb's approach from anyone except maybe another Stark. Tyrion practically had none and he came up with good stratagems. Tywin has them, including people like Kevan, yet only manages to pull off solid and not bad. Nothing about the way he makes war could ever be described as "very Tywin" except for the part that undeniably is - He's not an idiot so he listens to his advisers for military council and plays the game of politics to get ahead. That's Tywin to me. If I had to pick one man to come up with a battle plan solo, Tywin wouldn't be particularly high on the list. As for the Reynes I never saw them depicted as a threat, just an ambitious bunch that could become a threat but had no ties that could backfire on would-be aggressors. Again, a political move and in particular one that prevents a situation where you'd need a good genereal - Very Tywin.
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Apr 4, 2014 14:57
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I dunno about Tywin not really having strategies all his own, although you are correct in that delegation is one of them and back-alley political deals are another. The main strategy of Tywin's that comes to mind as fitting his character particularly well is psychological warfare -- popularizing The Rains Of Castamere and sending his scariest lieutenant out into the countryside to cause as much carnage as he possibly can both count. If reckless bravery is "very Robb", unorthodox outside-the-box tactics are "very Tyrion", making the best of limited resources is "very Daenerys", and diplomacy/seduction are "very all-of-the-Tyrells", then it could definitely be said that making sure your enemies are too desperate or scared to challenge you when and where it matters is "very Tywin." The character that actually seems to not really have a strategy beyond listening to his advisors is actually Stannis. The only thing he seems to do reliably is use numerical advantages when he can, and try to figure something else out when he can't. e: Also, making sure the smartest of his advisors rise to the top by constantly denying them approval unless they impress him is an aspect of the psychological warfare strategy that helps the delegation strategy. loquacius fucked around with this message at 15:20 on Apr 4, 2014 |
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Apr 4, 2014 15:14
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Tywin's strategies are actually terrible and the other characters make it clear that they could whip him over and over again. Robb had Tywin up against the wall when he got killed. The Riverlands were his, he was rampaging through the western lands, and he was putting to flight all of Tywin's best men. The only thorn in his side was Gregor and even then Gregor was getting hounded by Barric. Tywin sent his men through unfriendly territory in the middle of surging rivers that got them stuck in a quagmire fighting the Tullys and nearly cost the kingdom. He showed up at the end of the siege of King's Landing and probably would have been routed by Stannis if Tyrion didn't blow up half the fleet then win the melee outside the fortress. He smashed the Raynes early in his life but it really sounded like it was one house versus the entire Westernlands. Not exactly a battle that needed strategic cunning so much as a battle that required you killing a bunch of women and children. Tywin kinda blows at the military.
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Apr 4, 2014 15:29
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Doltos posted:Tywin kinda blows at the military.
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Apr 4, 2014 15:42
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MichiganCubbie posted:Also, cast Ray Stevenson as Victarion and Kevin McKidd as Jon Connington. Every loving time someone says cast Ray Stevenson as Victarion, I think of Ray Stevens. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=293Irm-vxtE Every. loving. Time. CapnAndy posted:Like, for a modern example, let's say the President goes bugfuck crazy, declares himself President for Life, starts inviting Governors to the White House and torturing them to death. The nation rises up in revolt, but before they can actually get to DC, one of the Secret Service just shoots the crazy loving President in the back. Basically, that guy had to go, and nobody's sorry he got killed, but... dude, your job was still to die for him and now you've cast a stain on the entire organization that'll never come out. Yeah, no. I'm pretty sure that agent would be given a loving hero's parade.
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Apr 4, 2014 15:44
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DrBouvenstein posted:Yeah, no. I'm pretty sure that agent would be given a loving hero's parade.
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Apr 4, 2014 15:51
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Toplowtech posted:Yes but not a job as bodyguard in any of the next administrations, even his own ("Protect democracy: Vote for a True Hero. Tyrantslayer 2028.") While not on the same level as killing the king/president, there was a somewhat similiar situation in college basketball a number of years ago. A Baylor player was murdered and the coach had been secretly paying his tution. After the murder, the coach told the other players to lie about the player and to say he paid his titution by dealing drugs. An assistant coach recorded these coversations and eventually the truth came out. But the assistant coach has basically been blackballed from the sport and high-profile college coaches have come out and said that they wouldn't want a guy like that on their staffs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baylor_University_basketball_scandal
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Apr 4, 2014 16:00
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Doltos posted:Tywin kinda blows at the military. Yeah, somebody who relies so much on psychological warfare -- whose main purpose is to make actual warfare unnecessary -- probably isn't gonna be the best at actual battle. But the psychological campaign was still a rousing success -- even though he had reliably been losing battles to Robb he maintained his reputation of Not Being Someone To gently caress With up until the end, and even then he only went down because of his awful parenting skills.
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Apr 4, 2014 16:05
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Toplowtech posted:Yes, he is quite conservative and uninspired on the battlefield, so what? And Hannibal Barca and King Pyrrhus of Epirus were two of the greatest generals of the Antiquity and they clearly showed that you don't win a war just by winning battles. Jon Connington could have won a war just by setting a village on fire but he wasn't Tywin Lannister so he lost everything. Wasn't trying to infer more than that. I recognize why Tywin is still a great leader despite being lovely at the military. But if we're talking about historical stuff, I'll throw my hat in for a few points that I saw arise. Roman emperors didn't expect to get slaughtered by their Praetorian guard one after another. The Marius reforms changed the scope of the relationship between the civilian population and the army. Paying the army was the most important thing for an Emperor to keep in mind. Whole wars were fought not to expand Roman territory for the sake of conquest, but to give land and gold to the people fighting. Those wars were becoming more costly, specifically in Eurasia, which meant that the Emperors had to do some nutso taxing to keep people happy. This extended to the Praetorian guard. There are instances where someone took over as Caesar by bribing the guard then got immediately murdered by someone who bribed them a bit more. They knew they wouldn't be killed by the Praetorian guard for no reason as long as their pockets were sufficiently greased. The power struggle of late Emperors weren't rapid fire succession either. The span of years is still a long time even though it seems insignificant to us today when we see an Emperor ruling for only a couple of years. Mind you that the entire duration of the last five books happened over the course of a mere year. These Emperors were quite convinced that each of them would bring stability and a long rule that was equivalent to Marcus Aurelius. As for Pyrrhus and Barca, they are completely different stories all together. Barca did not have a Pyrrhic war with Rome. He was absolutely unstoppable when Rome went out to fight him due to his own ingenuity (the disaster at Cannae) but ultimately lost due to being outplayed in the military setting. Fabius Maximus bested him by refusing to meet him on logistics that favored the Carthaginians. He would run and give up battle but destroy any chance of foraging for Hannibal's army. Eventually, after the siege of Tarentum, Hannibal saw the writing on the wall and went home. The Fabian strategy is still famous til today. As for Pyrrhus of Epirus, he hosed it up by himself. He decided to wage a two front war against the Carthiginians and the Romans for control of Sicily. When he finally got out of the quagmire of Libyaeum he found that he was suddenly outnumbered 5 to 1 by the Romans. He lost in a military fashion. Both men didn't lose the war and win all the battles, they actually both lost quite a bit of battles. They mainly lost the war because the other side eventually stabilized, something that Tywin was praying wouldn't happen to Robb. He was saved by blind luck with Theon deciding to ravage Winterfell. No one would ever think to attack Winterfell and it was the one city that would cause Robb to turn around. Robb ain't no Pyrrhus or Barca, and neither is Tywin, and both are bad comparisons.
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Apr 4, 2014 16:28
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In It For The Tank posted:Man, the other thread couldn't even make it to premiere without someone buying the OP a spoiler avatar. How are they ever going to get through the entire season. They should leave avatars enabled and complain every time they get spoiled.
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Apr 4, 2014 16:38
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Doltos posted:Robb ain't no Pyrrhus or Barca, and neither is Tywin, and both are bad comparisons. quote:Barca did not have a Pyrrhic war with Rome. Toplowtech fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Apr 4, 2014 |
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Apr 4, 2014 16:51
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Just rewatched the red wedding. I'm going to miss Michelle Fairley. When is undead Cat supposed to show up?
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Apr 4, 2014 17:55
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Shyfted One posted:Just rewatched the red wedding. I'm going to miss Michelle Fairley. Last scene of the last episode of this season, I'm betting.
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Apr 4, 2014 17:57
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That'd be great. What's the big "episode 9" event speculated to be?
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Apr 4, 2014 18:01
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Shyfted One posted:That'd be great. Battle on the Wall -> Stannis to the rescue
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Apr 4, 2014 18:04
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Shyfted One posted:That'd be great. Mance trying to take Castle Black. I've no idea if they'll stick with the books and the wildlings over the wall try and take it before or they'll have them both attack at once.
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Apr 4, 2014 18:04
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It would make sense for Tormund/Ygritte's group to arrive earlier, that's a good opportunity for the Watch to find out Jon broke his vows, arrest him, and send him on suicide mission. Otherwise I don't see how you'd stretch out "the wildlings are going to attack" for eight whole episodes.
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Apr 4, 2014 18:15
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Well they have to do something all season. They'll probably have the Thenns attack over the wall earlier and episode 9 will be the big battle. I wonder what they're going to do with Ygritte. Her death is such a heartbreaking scene. I hope she comes in the earlier attack because putting her death in the big battle episode would probably end up being too rushed.
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Apr 4, 2014 18:16
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Shyfted One posted:That'd be great. Between everything that's happening this season we're going to have like 3 episode 9s. Off the top of my head we have the purple wedding, Tyrion's trial + Red Viper vs The Mountain, and the battle at the wall. Not to mention all the other significant events. Tysha reveal, Shae and Tywin's death, "Only Cat", and I'm sure I'm forgetting things. It's going to be an amazing season.
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Apr 4, 2014 18:25
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Episode 9 itself will be the battle at the wall.
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Apr 4, 2014 18:28
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Mortabis posted:Episode 9 itself will be the battle at the wall. And they've brought back the Blackwater director, Neil Marshal for it. No idea how he's going to work in all the musical numbers, but I'm optimistic that we'll have one or two.
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Apr 4, 2014 18:32
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Strom Cuzewon posted:And they've brought back the Blackwater director, Neil Marshal for it. No idea how he's going to work in all the musical numbers, but I'm optimistic that we'll have one or two. Instead of taking Sansa to the Eyrie, Littlefinger brings her to the wall so she can finish her drat rendition of "Gentle Mother, Font of Mercy" already.
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Apr 4, 2014 18:35
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Strom Cuzewon posted:No idea how he's going to work in all the musical numbers, but I'm optimistic that we'll have one or two. I heard they're bringing in Robert Lopez and Kristen Anderson-Lopez to help write Bran's storyline. Not sure why.
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Apr 4, 2014 18:38
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I wonder if they have a 'money shot' this time around. The old green explosion from series 2 is one of the most memorable TV shots in a good while. I also wonder if they'll have enough battle content to devote a whole episode to it like they did with Blackwater. It'd certainly be nice.
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Apr 4, 2014 18:40
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In It For The Tank posted:Man, the other thread couldn't even make it to premiere without someone buying the OP a spoiler avatar. How are they ever going to get through the entire season. It was pretty much guaranteed to happen once the page 2 "talk about spoilers like soldiers sharing war stories" poo poo started. Don't they realize they are just asking for trouble by being so utterly obsessed with the subject? The guy crying about "punishing people who buy spoiler avatars" probably was the straw that broke the camels back.
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Apr 4, 2014 18:45
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Steve2911 posted:I wonder if they have a 'money shot' this time around. The old green explosion from series 2 is one of the most memorable TV shots in a good while. Last year's money shot should have been a montage of Cat getting dumped into the river over and over from different angles.
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Apr 4, 2014 18:46
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Toplowtech posted:He somewhat did. After Cannae, he no longer had the troops to take over the city of Rome despite having totaly crushed its army. Spent the next 10 years pillaging the countryside in a war of attrition he lost. He didn't have the troops to take Rome before Cannae either.
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Apr 4, 2014 18:48
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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I forgot how much they had to cover in this season. Every episode should be pretty great.
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Apr 4, 2014 18:51
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PittTheElder posted:He didn't have the troops to take Rome before Cannae either. Yes and Hannibal only killed two legions at Cannae. The Romans were panicking over the huge loss of life for just one battle, but they weren't panicking because that huge loss of life left them with nothing to defend with. The real skill that Fabius Maximus brought to the table was to not throw away lives willy nilly. Rome was never in any real trouble of totally capitulating to Carthage.
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Apr 4, 2014 18:55
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Doltos posted:Last year's money shot should have been a montage of Cat getting dumped into the river over and over from different angles. On this note, I thought it was a little weird that they never mentioned this happening at all in Episode 10 last season. They talk about Robb Wind obviously, but no one who discusses the wedding (Walder Frey, the soldiers that Arya and the Hound kill, Tywin, Joffrey, etc.) mentioned Cat getting dumped in the river (which is obviously crucial to her getting resurrected). I saw a preview of this week's episode though and apparently it comes up in a conversation between Tyrion and Sansa. I wonder if the writers held off on mentioning it until they were sure that Michelle Fairley would be back this season.
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Apr 4, 2014 19:05
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Promethium posted:It would make sense for Tormund/Ygritte's group to arrive earlier, that's a good opportunity for the Watch to find out Jon broke his vows, arrest him, and send him on suicide mission. Otherwise I don't see how you'd stretch out "the wildlings are going to attack" for eight whole episodes.
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Apr 4, 2014 19:32
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They better not loving kill Tormund Giantsbane
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Apr 4, 2014 19:38
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Jon has to be elected Lord Commander sometime before the battle starts, right?
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Apr 4, 2014 19:38
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loquacius posted:Jon has to be elected Lord Commander sometime before the battle starts, right? Nah, that's afterward. jsoh posted:They better not loving kill Tormund Giantsbane Tormund is one of my favorite characters. HAR!
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Apr 4, 2014 19:40
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If they ruin Only Cat I will probably stop watching
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Apr 4, 2014 19:41
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