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Old Kentucky Shark posted:Well, one, that's a nineteen charm tree, and two, so you're agreeing with me that the baseline should be fewer than nineteen charms per artifact? Yeah, I just disagree that that's the baseline. I wouldn't expect an Evocation tree that big to be 'standard'. If it is then I'm with you that that's stupid. Plus even with the biggest trees, the tiering system there makes the amount of lateral buyin you need pretty reasonable. The actual undisputed master of whatever the hell that is isn't going to have all nineteen of those charms.
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Apr 8, 2014 22:53
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:Well, one, that's a nineteen charm tree, and two, so you're agreeing with me that the baseline should be fewer than fifteen-nineteen charms per artifact? Like maybe half as many? I don't get why it works like this at all. Why isn't it one bigass tree and every daiklave has a set path of charms that runs through it like a branch? Maybe with a unique charm here or there as needed, but not 10+ unique charms. Having it work that way would also help support people carrying two weapons from having to invest in a charm tree for each hand, if the weapons have some charm similarities.
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Apr 8, 2014 22:56
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I'm hoping there are a bunch of quick numbers modular effects you can cram together into quick Evocations. I also hope that there are some basic "This is a standard jade daiklaives" trees since you need that kind of thing, too. Frankly the thing that really makes me hesitant to run Exalted is just how much stuff there is, between charms for every Exalted type and spells and martial arts and ugh. I love that poo poo as a player, but as a ST it's just so much. I would love to see a bit somewhere about throwing together quick-and-dirty NPCs without having to drag out two more hardcovers. I'm specifically thinking about Dragonblooded here because there are a lot of them, they all have artifacts, and they all know Kung-Fu. They're a primary antagonist for Solar games and even if they aren't it's really, really easy to run across one someplace and have an unplanned fight break out. Some way to have some charm variation and flavor beyond "Use the default Air Aspect in the back of the book" would rock.
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Apr 8, 2014 22:58
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Attorney at Funk posted:Plus even with the biggest trees, the tiering system there makes the amount of lateral buyin you need pretty reasonable. The actual undisputed master of whatever the hell that is isn't going to have all nineteen of those charms. People keep saying this but that doesn't actually address the fact that one single kind of sword has 19 discrete mechanical effects attached to it. Whether you're expected to buy them all or not is irrelevant, that's still 19 charms stuck to one piece of equipment on top of however many other charms are stuck to other gear, on top of actual charms, on top of backgrounds and Martial Arts and etc. I'll be honest, I only vaguely remember hearing about Evocations being a thing where you can invest XP into making your personal equipment more awesome instead of just taking melee charms or something and I thought that was a pretty cool sounding idea, I'm a fan of legendary artifacts that get more awesome over time, but holy poo poo that chart looks like a parody of someone's Exalted homebrew.
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Apr 8, 2014 22:59
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Kai Tave posted:People keep saying this but that doesn't actually address the fact that one single kind of sword has 19 discrete mechanical effects attached to it. Whether you're expected to buy them all or not is irrelevant, that's still 19 charms stuck to one piece of equipment on top of however many other charms are stuck to other gear, on top of actual charms, on top of backgrounds and Martial Arts and etc. I don't really care how many powers there are in the compendium as long as the powers feel like powers rather than feats. There were an egregious number of total powers by the tail end of D&D 4e's lifecycle but picking powers was never the arduous part of character creation, it was assembling all the niggling little patched-in Plusdice to make the math on your character work.
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Apr 8, 2014 23:04
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No, actually picking powers in 4E became a pain in the rear end too after a while. When the game first started everybody had like four choices per level and it was a little boring, then they added some more and it was like "all right this is rad" and then they kept adding more and more and more and now a level 1 Fighter has 17 at-wills, 18 encounter powers, and 17 daily powers to sift through. Half of those powers range from mediocre to bad and good luck figuring out which is which without A). lots of actual play experience or B). something like a charop cheat-sheet. I say this as someone who likes 4E and enjoys playing it but picking powers in 4E is absolutely tedious. Exalted is already a game that's been dealing with this sort of problem for two editions, and now apparently they've decided to double-down on that with double digit charm trees for individual weapons which genuinely blows my mind.
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Apr 8, 2014 23:15
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Do we still have no word on the intended opportunity cost of a charm? Confirmation or denial of universal fixed costs?
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Apr 8, 2014 23:20
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Even the mediocre powers are fine, though. Like there's very few points in 4e power selection where you're just an idiot to take one power over another. Your character's still perfectly playable either way and a lot of those mediocre to bad powers are cool. All this is not to say that I'm excited by the prospect of wading through seven hundred charms at character creation, or whatever. But at this point I've got more faith in the Exalted 3e team's ability to produce a system that's playable than I do in their ability to produce a setting that isn't embarrassing. I'm willing to interpret that chart and its implications charitably. I've also never
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Apr 8, 2014 23:20
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It really seems like this evocation model is going to heavily favor players carrying one sword, one suit of armor, and so on with whatever has evocations. Did you want to wield two one-handed swords and sometimes get a bow out? Great, pick from between 50 and 60 new evocation effects! And split your progression currency amongst them! At least, for the moment. I guess maybe the evocation progression currency is earned per individual artifact? Like "you've been carrying this daiklave around for a month, you get two daiklave dollars that can be spent on this daiklave" type thing?
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Apr 8, 2014 23:25
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Attorney at Funk posted:Even the mediocre powers are fine, though. Like there's very few points in 4e power selection where you're just an idiot to take one power over another. Your character's still perfectly playable either way and a lot of those mediocre to bad powers are cool. You can make the same argument about feats though. You don't have to go hardcore charop "gotta get all the +1s" and your 4E character won't fall into a hole or anything, but I don't hear a lot of people talking about how 4E's 5,000+ or whatever the ridiculous number actually is amount of feats is a good thing because "you don't have to take all of them." Attorney at Funk posted:But at this point I've got more faith in the Exalted 3e team's ability to produce a system that's playable than I do in their ability to produce a setting that isn't embarrassing. I'm willing to interpret that chart and its implications charitably. That chart is literally just a chart of charm names though. What is there to interpret charitably? I might have more faith in the Ex3's team to deliver on all of this if they were willing to pony up some more substantial mechanical previews so I'd have a better way to judge whether they can actually deliver on this or if it's just going to be another source of bloat for an already bloated game. This isn't me being skeptical because it's Exalted, I would be skeptical of any RPG with a history of huge lists of crunchy, fiddly stuff where the writers decided that with their new edition what they needed was even more lists of crunchy, fiddly stuff and that somehow it would all work out okay this time because.
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Apr 8, 2014 23:30
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Kai Tave posted:...but holy poo poo that chart looks like a parody of someone's Exalted homebrew. No, that's the Exigent hardcover next year.  As someone who got excited at the idea of the Dragonblooded preview's big reveal being "quintuple the Charms!*" I guess I have no grounds to complain about a nineteen Charm evocation tree for a single daiklaive. Hopefully each of them is at least concisely worded or Artifact write-ups are going to take three or four pages! *I don't like Charm bloat, but I do want to see Wood Melee, Air Ride, and Fire Occult Charms (and so on) this go around.
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Apr 8, 2014 23:35
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Attorney at Funk posted:All this is not to say that I'm excited by the prospect of wading through seven hundred charms at character creation, or whatever. I mean, this isn't the main system the way that class powers were for 4e: this is a subsystem that sits on top of the regular charm system. I just don't see how they can manage charm trees that large for all multiple different weapons without having a loving ton of mediocre charms, or a huge amount of built in redundancy, or both. I'd rather have 4-6 charms per weapon than 19 charms per weapon, because I think it'd give you a better shot at a genuinely good and unique charms for weapons, and be less of a loving chore to read.
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Apr 8, 2014 23:36
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so would you guys rather prefer a lot of charms upfront or referencing 5 to 6 different books to play a Chargen Solar? The first is what this is, the second is 2E. This thread is moving very fast so it's just what I'm wondering. Sure there's still going to be new books to reference like Arms of the Chosen, but not having to have Glories and Dawn Solution and Dreams of the First Age all to build your Solar would be pretty great.
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Apr 8, 2014 23:38
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theironjef posted:It really seems like this evocation model is going to heavily favor players carrying one sword, one suit of armor, and so on with whatever has evocations. Did you want to wield two one-handed swords and sometimes get a bow out? Great, pick from between 50 and 60 new evocation effects! And split your progression currency amongst them! Is that bad? This isn't a rhetorical question. Would it actually be a design flaw if someone carried around a pair of swords and a bow bought fewer of each weapon's charms than someone who only used one artifact or the other? What percentage of available charms do you have to be able to see yourself buying for it to be an appropriate degree of specialization? At heart I think the question Exalted 3e needs to answer is this: are you playing incorrectly if you aren't a monomaniacal specialist in whatever your particular shtick is? The answer to this question rather than the absolute number of available buyable powers is what's going to determine how much is too much, where options end and bloat begins. Things like, are we going to be expected to:
I think, for every bullet point like that that we answer 'yes', then the actual size of charm trees becomes a bigger issue because their size represents a really intense economic pressure to hyperspecialize. For every bullet point like that we can answer 'no', then there's less expectation that you'll need to buy all of a tree to feel satisfied with buying any of it. Old Kentucky Shark posted:Okay. I don't mean to pick on you, but why are you arguing in favor of it, then? Because it honestly sounds like you're in favor of smaller Evocation charm trees, except that you keep saying that you aren't. Basically for this reason: I'm not yet convinced I'll have to.
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Apr 8, 2014 23:38
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Attorney at Funk posted:Is that bad? This isn't a rhetorical question. Would it actually be a design flaw if someone carried around a pair of swords and a bow bought fewer of each weapon's charms than someone who only used one artifact or the other? What percentage of available charms do you have to be able to see yourself buying for it to be an appropriate degree of specialization? 3E charms work like this; ><, you get way more power and 'I'm awesome'ness out of the E1 and 2 Charms.
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Apr 8, 2014 23:40
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Stallion Cabana posted:so would you guys rather prefer a lot of charms upfront or referencing 5 to 6 different books to play a Chargen Solar? I'd prefer game design that doesn't make those the only two possible options.
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Apr 8, 2014 23:41
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Kai Tave posted:I'd prefer game design that doesn't make those the only two possible options. how would you do it then? I'm curious.
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Apr 8, 2014 23:42
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Stallion Cabana posted:3E charms work like this; ><, you get way more power and 'I'm awesome'ness out of the E1 and 2 Charms. Yeah if they can follow through on this (and mastery of charm design is, like I said, the one area I'm willing to trust Ex3 developers on) then I won't feel bad for dabbling in a bunch of different things that'd require a high buy-in to get all of. The ability to do that, to spread out and not feel like an idiot for doing so, is all I want out of a charmset. I don't feel innately cheated by the prospect of not being able to put everything under one heading of a spell list on my character sheet; I was taught to be wary of bloat by bad games. So in the interests of charity, I wouldn't measure the success or failure of Ex3's design by counting up how many individual powers there are, but by looking at the ratio of powers characters want to powers characters need. I wouldn't begrudge anyone for being uncharitable, though. They won't actually earn any more good will unless the book comes out and it's good.
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Apr 8, 2014 23:46
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Stallion Cabana posted:so would you guys rather prefer a lot of charms upfront or referencing 5 to 6 different books to play a Chargen Solar? That's a weird, false choice? Because you could actually fit more artifacts in the corebook if they used smaller charm trees, so you could build more types of Solar using just the core book with smaller Evocation trees.
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Apr 8, 2014 23:48
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Attorney at Funk posted:Yeah if they can follow through on this (and mastery of charm design is, like I said, the one area I'm willing to trust Ex3 developers on) then I won't feel bad for dabbling in a bunch of different things that'd require a high buy-in to get all of. The ability to do that, to spread out and not feel like an idiot for doing so, is all I want out of a charmset. It's absolutely possible. I've yet to be disappointed with an E1 charm for being too weak. You can pick up one or two charms in an ability and go 'Yeah I'm awesome at this'. Old Kentucky Shark posted:That's a weird, false choice? Because you could actually fit more artifacts in the corebook if they used smaller charm trees, so you could build more types of Solar using just the core book with smaller Evocation trees?? But this also isn't quite true because no one is saying 'these are only for this weapon'. If you like one of the Evocations you can easily change it to something that fits a different weapon. There's no real change between this and spreading them out across a bunch of them except in this way it shows how deep these can go. If you spread them out then the thought is they can't go this deep. If you have, say, 2 Daiklaves that are this deep, you can go 'I like this power off of this one and this one off of that one, here's how I'm refluffing them for my weapon which is a little different.' Stallion Cabana fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Apr 8, 2014 |
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Apr 8, 2014 23:48
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Stallion Cabana posted:how would you do it then? I'm curious. Old Kentucky Shark posted:I'd rather have 4-6 charms per weapon than 19 charms per weapon, because I think it'd give you a better shot at a genuinely good and unique charms for weapons, and be less of a loving chore to read. "More stuff!" isn't an inherent good in and of itself, the more things you cram into your RPG (which is being made by a small number of people for mediocre pay) the less time and opportunity you have to make all of it actually decent (where decent is cool, rigorously designed, balanced, whatever works for you). Also, while 16 year old me would probably be over the moon at the idea of individual swords with 19 discrete powers to pick and choose from these days I'm less excited about long lists of stuff to wade through regardless of how many are trap options. Also I admit I'm intensely skeptical that even the best-intentioned RPG designer is going to be able to come up with 19 unique and interesting and awesome charms for this one sword and keep doing that for every major piece of magical equipment on top of all the other poo poo they have to do. So I too think shorter lists of stuff is more conducive to both quality and cutting down bloat, and would probably find it more appealing from a personal standpoint.
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Apr 8, 2014 23:52
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Attorney at Funk posted:I wouldn't measure the success or failure of Ex3's design by counting up how many individual powers there are, but by looking at the ratio of powers characters want to powers characters need. This is a good way to put it. I think 4e is a good example here - the multiplicity of powers isn't really a problem with the game. There's definitely room to condense some of them, but so long as the framework they work on is consistent it doesn't matter that there are two hundred spells you didn't choose compared to the eight that you did. Here's a line from early in the KS update: quote:Chapter Four (Traits) is being finalized across the board-- Merits are done, Attributes and Abilities are done, Caste two-page spreads are done, the Great Curse is done, etc. Is there any hope now that the implementation of Martial Arts as an Ability on your sheet isn't really dumb? I'm highly skeptical.
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Apr 9, 2014 01:42
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People keep referencing 4e like it's basically the same thing as this, but is there a plan for a character builder in Ex3? Because that's the only thing that made the 4e Powers system tolerable.
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Apr 9, 2014 02:22
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ImpactVector posted:People keep referencing 4e like it's basically the same thing as this, but is there a plan for a character builder in Ex3? Because that's the only thing that made the 4e Powers system tolerable. There is, AFAIK, though it's third-party. To be fair though building a 4e character back when all you needed was the PHB was basically fine. Like it was still a lot of paperwork compared to a streamlined system but it wasn't uniquely cumbersome.
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Apr 9, 2014 02:28
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ImpactVector posted:People keep referencing 4e like it's basically the same thing as this, but is there a plan for a character builder in Ex3? Because that's the only thing that made the 4e Powers system tolerable. Anathema was a pretty good character builder for Exalted 2e. I think one of the Kickstarter stretch goals was for trying to get Anathema support for 3e?
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Apr 9, 2014 02:48
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Ferrinus posted:Is there any hope now that the implementation of Martial Arts as an Ability on your sheet isn't really dumb? I'm highly skeptical. Holy poo poo you are monomaniacal. For what it's worth, you may or may not have missed this. Stallion Cabana posted:This is a hard question. Let me see.
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Apr 9, 2014 03:06
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Tomn posted:Holy poo poo you are monomaniacal. I know there's a Brawl charm tree.. but I also know that that might be thanks to a rule where you literally have to decide whether you have a Brawl rating or a Martial Arts rating, or divide a single pool of dots up among both skills, or something. EDIT: To be fair to my own monomania, the update also mentioned that they're finishing advancement systems and therefore the chapter, which we all know are going to be a trainwreck unless they're kidding and there's still some kind of window within which playtesters can stage a revolt. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 03:20 on Apr 9, 2014 |
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Apr 9, 2014 03:15
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Tomn posted:Holy poo poo you are monomaniacal. He's from a previous edition.
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Apr 9, 2014 03:32
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Tomn posted:Holy poo poo you are monomaniacal. Well, given that they won't actually open up the rules to be seen by backers, all we can do is hope that our pet hates don't end up enshrined in 3E.
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Apr 9, 2014 03:39
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My big experience with Exalted was joining a game from the official forums, and finding that two of the characters in said game had Laughing Wounds style and were really creepy spergs who had to take every social charm and sleep with every woman, including other PCs. And another was a lunar whose motivation was 'breed up my own nation rivaling the scarlet empire'. Then quitting the game. Any chance 3e is gonna turn down the creepy sex charms and abilities? I haven't followed it at all, due to the bad experience sort of turning me off the game completely.
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Apr 9, 2014 04:05
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KittyEmpress posted:My big experience with Exalted was joining a game from the official forums, and finding that two of the characters in said game had Laughing Wounds style and were really creepy spergs who had to take every social charm and sleep with every woman, including other PCs. And another was a lunar whose motivation was 'breed up my own nation rivaling the scarlet empire'. Then quitting the game. Good question. Good... good question. 
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Apr 9, 2014 04:24
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KittyEmpress posted:Any chance 3e is gonna turn down the creepy sex charms and abilities? Probably not, no.
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Apr 9, 2014 05:41
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I thought I was pushing it when I was building Evocation trees to be around 6-12 Charms. Especially with how closely intertwined all that stuff looks, I don't think you can sustain really creative, interesting Charms all the way through a tree like that. To be fair, by my lights nowadays Wulin has barely tolerable levels of fiddly crap. Still, it's hard to expect any tree like this won't contain Fireball I and its intensely interesting follow-up Fireball II. I'll speculate a little like an rear end in a top hat before disappearing back into my hell prison. I think this is something you're going to have to just accept if you want a system of moderate-to-high complexity from John. He likes fiddly specifics. Even after all the trouble of making the core system a bit more streamlined for normal humans. One of the first times he ever solicited my input was for some Solar Hero Charm. It knocked a foe around in an incredibly specific way—not mechanically fiddly in comparison to other Knockbacks, just a very particular visual flair. I thought vague-ing it up a bit and making the original visual an example option would be better, but welp. Considering the system it was for, that level of specificity wasn't a big deal at all. I just wouldn't want to set a precedent like that if I had the chance to rebuild everything. Not even back when I was poorly rewriting Sidereals the first time. Despite all the passion and energy someone might muster, this is a property with a years of content ahead of it. You're going to see one or two flawless executions of trees like that, and then either more underwhelming ones or just no more at all. It's unsustainable. I'm sure it'll be a pretty great system for the kind of mechanics wonk I was five years ago!  (I was the one who chuckled smugly in Skype when John talked about the likelihood the team would look completely different by the time anyone ever got to plan the next five years.  In my defense, my enthusiasm for Exalted had remained consistently high for nearly a whole decade. For some reason I just suddenly and catastrophically burned out!  )(PS Ferrinus, please shut the gently caress up about the martial arts thing already. At least until there's something new to talk about. It's even worse when one plows through a bunch of pages.) (PPS I don't mind people asking me questions or linking me Exalted stuff—someone on 4chan wagging their finger at me was hilarious—but this is about the extent of the input you can expect from me. So it might not be worth your time or interest!)
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Apr 9, 2014 07:13
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Uuuuugh. That's less than encouraging. It's doubly unencouraging because that love of fiddly specificity is the same thing they used to rationalize the sex ghost charms. The alternative would be "antiseptic and dull". God drat it.
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Apr 9, 2014 07:23
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Plague of Hats posted:I'll speculate a little like an rear end in a top hat before disappearing back into my hell prison. I think this is something you're going to have to just accept if you want a system of moderate-to-high complexity from John. He likes fiddly specifics. Even after all the trouble of making the core system a bit more streamlined for normal humans. One of the first times he ever solicited my input was for some Solar Hero Charm. It knocked a foe around in an incredibly specific way—not mechanically fiddly in comparison to other Knockbacks, just a very particular visual flair. I thought vague-ing it up a bit and making the original visual an example option would be better, but welp. This is something I've noticed throughout the mechanical snippets and preview stuff that we have seen so far, running all the way from rapeghosts to Bigger Dog Methodology, which is that the people writing this stuff seem really, really married to specifics...this charm about obsession only works with sex, this charm right here makes your familiar bigger in 20% increments, etc...rather than leaving things more open-ended which seems like it would be a vast improvement. Re: large numbers of fiddly charms and comparisons to 4E, I think there's a substantial difference between "Large numbers of powers and feats didn't make 4E as bad as they could have" and "large numbers of powers and feats made 4E a better game for having them." I'm honestly kind of impressed that 4E is still as decent and fun a game as it is despite drowning in feats and large numbers of powers for each class. Yes, some of those powers are really, really awesome and fun, but for every "chokeslam a dragon" there are a half-dozen easily forgettable powers. It's not so much "ew, these are trap choices" so much as "these all blend together and don't really add much to the game, and the time spent writing all of these could have been spent on other stuff." If the Exalted 3E writers manage to give every piece of magical equipment 19 individual powers, all of which are really interesting and cool and useful, then I will be incredibly impressed and publicly admit it, but that's a huge "if."
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Apr 9, 2014 07:30
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Kai Tave posted:If the Exalted 3E writers manage to give every piece of magical equipment 19 individual powers, all of which are really interesting and cool and useful, then I will be incredibly impressed and publicly admit it, but that's a huge "if." I doubt the plan is to sling around these giant Charm trees for most artifacts. But unless there's only a tiny handful of them for years to come it's probably setting a counter-productive standard.
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Apr 9, 2014 07:35
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Kai Tave posted:This is something I've noticed throughout the mechanical snippets and preview stuff that we have seen so far, running all the way from rapeghosts to Bigger Dog Methodology, which is that the people writing this stuff seem really, really married to specifics...this charm about obsession only works with sex, this charm right here makes your familiar bigger in 20% increments, etc...rather than leaving things more open-ended which seems like it would be a vast improvement. Serious question: What would you do instead of making powers for 4e, or Charms for Exalted? They're the mechanical bedrock of the system. If you're not going to put in the bulk of your man-hours into the thing the system runs on (besides core mechanics, of course)...what else will you focus on?
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Apr 9, 2014 07:36
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^^^There's a vast gulf of difference between "this thing is kind of an important part of how characters operate" and "therefore a level 1 Fighter needs 52 powers to choose from." Seriously, Exalted already has a bunch of discrete and fiddly powers for everybody to sift through, they're called Charms. Fine, that's cool. Now apparently on top of regular Charms they're also adding an entire extra layer of charms tagged to magical equipment. I think that's taking the lily and tossing it into a vat of molten gold. Yes, I think the idea that you can sink some XP into learning the secrets of the Green Destiny daiklave is cool, no I don't think you need 19 loving daiklave charms to accomplish that.Plague of Hats posted:I doubt the plan is to sling around these giant Charm trees for most artifacts. But unless there's only a tiny handful of them for years to come it's probably setting a counter-productive standard. Well I don't know man, they're planning on making nearly 20 powers for one single type of magical sword in a setting with at least four or five types of magical swords along with magical every other weapon including esoteric martial arts weapons plus armor plus giant robot suits plus whatever else. Maybe the plan is "oh these are all generic Equipment Charms and so you'll see redundancies all over the place so it's not actually that many" or something but all those Evocations have pretty specific-sounding names to me. And if the plan is that someone who invests heavily in Evocations is on par with someone who invests heavily in regular Charms then Evocations probably aren't going to be short little "+1 to Accuracy and Damage" things either. Kai Tave fucked around with this message at 07:44 on Apr 9, 2014 |
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Apr 9, 2014 07:39
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Transient People posted:Serious question: What would you do instead of making powers for 4e, or Charms for Exalted? They're the mechanical bedrock of the system. If you're not going to put in the bulk of your man-hours into the thing the system runs on (besides core mechanics, of course)...what else will you focus on?
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Apr 9, 2014 07:42
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Kai Tave posted:Well I don't know man, they're planning on making nearly 20 powers for one single type of magical sword in a setting with at least four or five types of magical swords along with magical every other weapon including esoteric martial arts weapons plus armor plus giant robot suits plus whatever else. The plan, as I recall, is that regular Charms and Evocations have precisely zero overlap. You buy Evocations from the same pool that buys you Sorceries and MArts, not your splat charms. So...we can't really tell either way, I think?
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Apr 9, 2014 07:42
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