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Konstantin posted:It's interesting, but I really think it should be uncommon rather than rare. I don't see this going anywhere near constructed play, and it's not that high a pick in Limited, especially since JIN will be opened first so you won't know if you will end up with a lot of Heroic cards. I don't think it should be uncommon since it's occasionally going to be Plague Wind and that's not good for limited.
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Apr 9, 2014 15:51
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Ajani rant time! It's been amusing watching people bitch about Ajani. The irony of complaining that 5 mana is ridiculous and far too slow but then also complaining that his ultimate is useless...  The world of MTG isn't divided into pure aggro and pure control, it's almost like there are OTHER deck styles that are currently underrepresented in Standard might want him! Am I the only person in this thread who thinks not seeing an obvious slot for a planeswalker whose abilities are pretty drat useful is a GOOD thing? I've been hating the last two sets that have basically spoon-fed a very simplistic standard to everyone (note: FLAVOR-wise, this block is amazing, just mechanically it's very uninspiring). "Look, here's a good black card, add it to mono black. Here's a good white planeswalker, play it with the good blue one in a UW control deck." Not fitting into an existing deck, and being spoiled on just day three of spoilers along with Godsend, tells me that there are likely many more tools hidden in the set that will shake things up a bit and possibly give us something to do other than mono-colored devotion/aggro decks. Someone said he's much more of a Johnny card than a Spike...and I think that's both accurate and refreshing! I don't want WotC building the entire standard meta for us. The "variety" in standard right now is false. "Do you want aggro or control? Which color?" It's like the menu at Olive Garden....sure there are 700 dishes to choose from, but they're all made from the same 12 ingredients with different names.  His utility is NOT obvious like it is for any Jace or Elspeth or something. The Kiora hate was even worse, and yet the Kraken is getting released with surprising regularity. Elspeth was laughed at as too expensive until her obvious place as a 6-mana finisher in control was realized. Ashiok is the ultimate posterchild for "goons hate all new planeswalkers until they do well on camera". In a nutshell, this thread is comically terrible at evaluating planeswalkers. I am, too, but I'm willing to give him a chance rather than proclaim on day 3 of spoiler season that he's unplayable. The double +1 loyalty thing like Elspeth KE makes me happier than it should. It's also extremely relevant to his quality, since when was the last time you were digging for NON-RANDOM card advantage (you get to choose) with a walker and GAINING loyalty (Domri only sort of counts, but it's part of why he's ridiculously good....also pretty hated in this thread when spoiled). Answer: Garruk, but that's it, and he's been hitting the classifieds pretty hard since Green Devotion declared bankruptcy (really hoping green becomes playable again with this set and he finds a new home). That's also a point in favor of his ultimate. If you're never having to use a minus ability, you'll be up in that range in no time if you protect him regardless of how he's being used. I look at it as, "Look, this is here if you need it. It's not plan A, but might come in handy if you're this far into the game." More likely I will just continue digging and pumping to try to close the game, but imagine if you're on an awkward board stall and can't afford to swing for fear of a lethal counter-attack. 100 life IS handy in that situation since you're now free to be the aggressor again. Plausible Scenario: T1 Elf, T2 Elf, T3 Ajani pump elves or dig, T4 pump again and swing for a decent chunk and have all your mana free to build the board further. Do that in Bant colors where you have access to a plethora of flash creatures and control spells and maybe Prophet of Kruphix (remember her? she's still insane) and you have yourself a scary start. Creature decks will always be weak to control, but Bant/GW do have some tools to mitigate that; hard-to-remove sources of card advantage in green can be gross. I'd actually say if I were to play him with a 6-mana walker I'd pick Garruk, but there is some obvious advantage to being able to make 3 tokens with Elspeth and immediately double their P/T. Again, he's ripe for experimentation, and I love that. I'm a Selesnya/Bant player at my core, and this card makes me happy. Bring on Selesnya/Bant midrange. This and Godsend and finding a new apartment have made my week, and it's only Wednesday morning. I'm just going to leave a few forgotten cards here at the bottom for you to contemplate, too. I'm not saying they're all GOOD, but that this is what even a cursory search of the available cards in Standard showed me might be doable. Hate on Ajani all you want, I'll be over here having fun with a new toy instead of dismissing him because he doesn't fit into an existing deck. Note: I'm a Spike, but I'm a Johnny first and foremost. I'm not saying I'm RIGHT about any of this, just offering the perspective of someone who's actually excited about this card to interrupt the stream of negativity.
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Apr 9, 2014 15:54
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BaronVonVaderham posted:Ajani rant time! Ajani is overcosted and probably won't see play outside of bant walkers or fringy selesnya decks
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Apr 9, 2014 15:57
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Korak posted:So why are they teaching players bad habits with the +100 life thing? I'm pretty sure it is there to distract people from the relevant abilities, because it doesn't matter if you can tutor up 3 card types and make your creatures houses. Its something to do if your bored of winning and want to make your opponent feel awful after you've tutor up 2 or 3 cards and made sylvan cariyatid a 3/6 wall that tells polukranos to go gently caress himself.
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Apr 9, 2014 15:58
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Mortimer posted:Ajani is overcosted and probably won't see play outside of bant walkers or fringy selesnya decks Kind of like Elspeth, Sun's Champion, right?  It's literally been 11 hours since we found out about what this Ajani can do. Cool it.
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Apr 9, 2014 15:59
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A card that just gains life is bad (Stream of Life, Heroes Reunion). A card that does something productive and has lifegain attached to it can be quite good, depending on the quality of its effect on the game. Just because a card says 'gain life' on it doesn't make it bad.
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Apr 9, 2014 16:00
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I'm pretty sure Ashiok is still terrible even if he gets a little standard play. There is a reason it's a 6 dollar mythic rare.Count Bleck posted:Kind of like Elspeth, Sun's Champion, right? There couldn't have been people who thought Sun's Champion was bad could there? With as well as she defends herself?
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Apr 9, 2014 16:02
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jassi007 posted:I'm pretty sure it is there to distract people from the relevant abilities, because it doesn't matter if you can tutor up 3 card types and make your creatures houses. Its something to do if your bored of winning and want to make your opponent feel awful after you've tutor up 2 or 3 cards and made sylvan cariyatid a 3/6 wall that tells polukranos to go gently caress himself. Also, it will be awesome when you have a close game that you are able to win by going ult with him. Also, some kid is going to flip his poo poo at an FNM by winning a game by using Vizkopa Guildmage's Second ability and then busting Ajani's Ult. "I gain 100 and you lose 200." I don't know how good the card will be, I see it as a one or 2 of, it is to expensive to be a 4 of, and doesn't provide a boardstate the same way Elspeth does. However, the recurring card advantage and threat selection Ajani grants seems useful, especially against a deck like UW/Esper.
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Apr 9, 2014 16:02
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Mortimer posted:Ajani is overcosted and probably won't see play outside of bant walkers or fringy selesnya decks And the point of making such a snap judgment is.....? My entire point was "let's see what else we get, this could be cool", but I'm guessing you read about 3 words before forming a strong opinion (rather like deciding that this card will be unplayable after a dozen cards are spoiled...).
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Apr 9, 2014 16:03
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mcmagic posted:I'm pretty sure Ashiok is still terrible even if he gets a little standard play. There is a reason it's a 6 dollar mythic rare. Sphinx's Revelation was a 5 dollar card until Theros came out. And we all know what happened when Theros came out. Ashiok isn't a "bad" card, but more of a card with no true home at the moment. That could change from now or maybe next year. Edit: Also for gently caress sake people stop basing how good a walker is based on it's ultimate ability, thanks.
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Apr 9, 2014 16:03
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e; ^^^^  Promoted Pawn posted:A card that just gains life is bad (Stream of Life, Heroes Reunion). A card that does something productive and has lifegain attached to it can be quite good, depending on the quality of its effect on the game. Just because a card says 'gain life' on it doesn't make it bad. Exactly. Sphinx's Rev is a good chunk worse without the life gain, that interction with Erebos in play comes up frequently enough that people should know this by now. Also, 100 life is a lot, in most games.
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Apr 9, 2014 16:04
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Count Bleck posted:Sphinx's Revelation was a 5 dollar card until Theros came out. And we all know what happened when Theros came out. Beat me to it. I tried Grixis for a few weeks. I'm actually excited for the UR God because it feels like the hard-to-handle finisher and card advantage engine that deck needed (Duskmantle Seer was too vulnerable). Also, yes times a million to your edit. I think Kiora and Elspeth are the only two walkers where their ultimate is the goal (unless you're playing Domri against control).
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Apr 9, 2014 16:07
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Someone's going to try and play a 4-color planeswalker control, and it might be me. The fact that Ajani fetches up his fellows, and eventually turns your 2/2 Satyrs and 1/1 Soldier tokens into game-ending threats, makes such a deck very appealing, at least to me.
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Apr 9, 2014 16:07
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Everyone seems to be slamming every card so far in this set, like someone legitimately said "well godsend is not as good as the swords or jitte so its poo poo", I mean what the gently caress! Also they said Iroas is bad because creature vs creature match ups are not happening right now in standard and there are too many ways of shutting creature decks down so therefore it is terrible. I just... I feel like I am arguing with a wall made of nostalgia and hate, do magic players understand how to actually discuss anything? Why is mtgsalvation so bad
Samael fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Apr 9, 2014 |
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Apr 9, 2014 16:07
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Count Bleck posted:Sphinx's Revelation was a 5 dollar card until Theros came out. And we all know what happened when Theros came out. http://store.tcgplayer.com/magic/return-to-ravnica/sphinxs-revelation#PriceGuide That isn't true. That effect was powerful even before Theros.
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Apr 9, 2014 16:09
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BaronVonVaderham posted:And the point of making such a snap judgment is.....? You typed a few thousand words describing combos ajani would work in, but that already are possible (and not good) in standard. Yeah he makes +1/+1 counters but so do a lot of cards. Yeah he's a heroic trigger but so are a lot of cards. Elspeth creates threats and can easily stall the board with them. Ajani does neither and requires threats to already be on board to do anything. Sure he can tutor the top four cards and pick one, but that's hardly a novel ability that's worth spending 5 mana for. Count Bleck posted:Sphinx's Revelation was a 5 dollar card until Theros came out. And we all know what happened when Theros came out. Sphinx wasn't $5 before theros, don't know what you're talking about here. If you mean RTR yeah it was undercosted but everyone kinda knew "hey this has potential we'll see if UW can pull together" not "This is overcosted and does nothing on its own" like Ajani.
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Apr 9, 2014 16:09
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Myriad Truths posted:Someone's going to try and play a 4-color planeswalker control, and it might be me. The fact that Ajani fetches up his fellows, and eventually turns your 2/2 Satyrs and 1/1 Soldier tokens into game-ending threats, makes such a deck very appealing, at least to me. I'm playing 5-color planeswalker control right now with Jace, Elspeth and Kiora because I wanted a deck that is slower to play than Esper or UW just rips those decks to shreds with control hate.
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Apr 9, 2014 16:12
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Samael posted:Everyone seems to be slamming every card so far in this set, like someone legitimately said "well godsend is not as good as the swords or jitte so its poo poo", I mean what the gently caress! Also they said Iroas is bad because decks creature vs creature match ups are not happening right now in standard so therefore it is terrible. I just... I feel like I am arguing with a wall made of nostalgia and hate, do magic players understand how actually discuss anything? Scarhide Mauler seems quite good. Ajani should find a home, as a 1 or 2 of because 5 mana IS a lot for something that doesn't win you the game. Iroas seems like it could be powerful in a r/w aggro shell, its unfortunate interaction with Boros Reckoner nonwithstanding. Keranos seems overcosted, but a fun Commander, and the cards all seem like better limited fodder than anything in Born of the Gods.
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Apr 9, 2014 16:13
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So will you be able to have the M14 Ajani and the JOU Ajani on the board at the same time? Was not sure how this worked if they are both the same planeswalker but different titles.
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Apr 9, 2014 16:13
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mcmagic posted:I'm pretty sure Ashiok is still terrible even if he gets a little standard play. There is a reason it's a 6 dollar mythic rare. Long term memory loss is a real bitch huh? Remember when the first SCG or GP (I can't remember which) after Theros release and someone was on camera playing Esper control with Ashiok and did well and suddenly it was $25-30 and everyone was ERMAGAHD AHSIOK IS AWESOME! It isn't a good card in this standard, but it was in a good deck and did a thing on camera and everyone went crazy, and that is all he was saying.
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Apr 9, 2014 16:13
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morning wood posted:So will you be able to have the M14 Ajani and the JOU Ajani on the board at the same time? Was not sure how this worked if they are both the same planeswalker but different titles. Their planeswalker type is both Ajani, so the planeswalker uniqueness rule will apply and force you to sacrifice one.
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Apr 9, 2014 16:14
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morning wood posted:So will you be able to have the M14 Ajani and the JOU Ajani on the board at the same time? Was not sure how this worked if they are both the same planeswalker but different titles. No. If you control two planeswalkers with the same subtype (i.e. two cards with the type line "Planeswalker - Ajani" or "Planeswalker - Jace") you have to sacrifice one of them.
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Apr 9, 2014 16:15
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I think, immediately when a card is spoiled and people are negative, its not because they genuinely believe a card to be terrible, I think they are trying to express a lack of excitement or interest. Ajani might not suck, but its also not very exciting.
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Apr 9, 2014 16:18
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So I was just re-reading the Ajani article on the mothership and noticed this particularly sloppy bit. quote:"White fur. One eye. Big axe. Who else?"
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Apr 9, 2014 16:18
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Mortimer posted:You typed a few thousand words describing combos ajani would work in, but that already are possible (and not good) in standard. Yeah he makes +1/+1 counters but so do a lot of cards. Yeah he's a heroic trigger but so are a lot of cards. Elspeth creates threats and can easily stall the board with them. Ajani does neither and requires threats to already be on board to do anything. Sure he can tutor the top four cards and pick one, but that's hardly a novel ability that's worth spending 5 mana for. He actually isn't a heroic trigger. But anyways... Sure you can say 'wait and see' but isn't the whole point of preview season to speculate on cards? Sure, maybe there'll be some absurd card that gets spoiled that breaks Ajani but does that mean that we can't talk about it until all the cards are spoiled? That seems really loving dumb. Enough planeswalkers have come out now that its fairly possible to judge planeswalkers based on existing ones and get a pretty good idea of how good they are or not. Obviously, you end up being wrong a lot of the time since planeswalkers are fairly difficult to assess, but that's the interesting part of the game, isn't it? Being able to talk about what might be good and what might not be good. Anyways, regarding Ajani, I see three really big strikes against it: 1) 5 mana is a lot for a planeswalker. Maindeckable 5 mana PW's in standard have basically just been Gideon and Tamiyo, and those are both very good. 2) Being two colors is another huge strike against it, as it severely limits the decks he can go into. 3) He doesn't help you if you're behind on the board. I do like that he does a lot to help make your mana dorks better, which is a huge problem in the RG decks that play 20 lands, 500 mana dorks, and 10 relevant cards, so I could see it going into a deck like that, except that these decks are super weak to Thoughtseize and Lifebane Zombie and Ajani doesn't really help with either of those. Right now? I don't think Ajani is playable, but that's just my first assessment of the card.
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Apr 9, 2014 16:19
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Promoted Pawn posted:So I was just re-reading the Ajani article on the mothership and noticed this particularly sloppy bit. Don't blame Wizards, blame Ajani's phantom eye.
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Apr 9, 2014 16:20
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Promoted Pawn posted:So I was just re-reading the Ajani article on the mothership and noticed this particularly sloppy bit. It reads better then "he rubbed his eye and the space where his eye used to be"
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Apr 9, 2014 16:20
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Mortimer posted:You typed a few thousand words describing combos ajani would work in, but that already are possible (and not good) in standard. Yeah he makes +1/+1 counters but so do a lot of cards. Yeah he's a heroic trigger but so are a lot of cards. Elspeth creates threats and can easily stall the board with them. Ajani does neither and requires threats to already be on board to do anything. Sure he can tutor the top four cards and pick one, but that's hardly a novel ability that's worth spending 5 mana for. Whatever you say dude, you're clearly incapable of looking past whatever is stuck up your rear end. I'm never going to convince you of anything, nor am I even claiming that I'm right. All I'm saying is it's PROBABLY more fun to speculate about and discuss a card's uses than to declare that everything is poo poo and life is terrible. Like, I genuinely don't see the point of a post that just says, "No, you're wrong, this card is awful."....or rather 50 of those posts because everyone wants to be right in a few weeks? I don't get it. At all. jassi007 posted:Long term memory loss is a real bitch huh? Remember when the first SCG or GP (I can't remember which) after Theros release and someone was on camera playing Esper control with Ashiok and did well and suddenly it was $25-30 and everyone was ERMAGAHD AHSIOK IS AWESOME! It isn't a good card in this standard, but it was in a good deck and did a thing on camera and everyone went crazy, and that is all he was saying. Pretty much. That's my go-to example when talking about people being unable to judge a card on their own and just following what they see on camera. It's pretty funny to watch, if a little sad.  I guess I'm a freak for having more fun tinkering with the cards than having someone else do it for me.
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Apr 9, 2014 16:20
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I'm not gonna assess whether new Ajani is a good card overall. I am gonna say his ultimate is garbage. PW ults should be giving you a huge push to end the game. Gaining 100 life in most circumstances is either a pointless win more or reads "end this game with in draw." I'm sure all the Johnnys out there with their Felidar Sovereign decks are excited, but that's a pretty awful ult.
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Apr 9, 2014 16:21
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I think people should playtest with the cards and what's known will be in standard before passing snap judgments  . I think at the very least it's neat to point out that he can come out, dig for more dudes, and be fairly threatening as long as you already have a semblance of board presence. Personally, I think Ajani has a lot of possibilities. It sucks that he doesn't immediately protect himself but 5 starting loyalty is pretty cool at least. I just wish there weren't a target restriction on the first ability because being able to shut off unleash (Cackler, Thrill-Kill, and Exava, I guess?) dudes from blocking your dudes would be sweet. Zoness fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Apr 9, 2014 |
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Apr 9, 2014 16:21
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BaronVonVaderham posted:Pretty much. That's my go-to example when talking about people being unable to judge a card on their own and just following what they see on camera. It's pretty funny to watch, if a little sad. I honestly don't get how people can't do this with cards sometimes. There was that wonderful little hour long stint of Chandra, Pyromaster being about 50 bucks on Starcity, and I had just finished trading for my playset because I love me some redwalkers (that aren't Tibalt). The fact it took several red decks running and winning with Chandra, Advantagemaster to get them to realise "Hey, that's actually a GOOD Chandra card!" is kind of sad.  Wizards please reprint Pyromaster in M15 
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Apr 9, 2014 16:24
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If your opponent isn't unleashing their creatures you're probably winning already anyway.
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Apr 9, 2014 16:24
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Are people actually calling "-8: you basically cannot lose the game now" a bad do-nothing ultimate?
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Apr 9, 2014 16:25
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Entropic posted:If your opponent isn't unleashing their creatures you're probably winning already anyway. Hey, I've never lost to a leashed cackler because my win condition is Aetherling, but when a 1/1 is threatening to chump a 9/9 Kraken, well, bantwalkers can't use Ajani to shut it down anyway. Entropic posted:Are people actually calling "-8: you basically cannot lose the game now" a bad do-nothing ultimate? I don't think they realize that it's about as useful as Elspeth, Knight-Errant's ultimate. Maybe even better. ChewyLSB posted:1) 5 mana is a lot for a planeswalker. Maindeckable 5 mana PW's in standard have basically just been Gideon and Tamiyo, and those are both very good. These are definitely real concerns for Ajani's viability. Zoness fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Apr 9, 2014 |
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Apr 9, 2014 16:26
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ChewyLSB posted:He actually isn't a heroic trigger. But anyways... I think that's the biggest point in his favor. At 5 mana, he obviously doesn't fit in an aggressive build, but more likely a mid-range-y shell that will require 500 mana dorks. In Garruk decks, drawing 3 elves off him was disappointing. With Ajani down, those are potential 2/2s instead, which is a little better, and accelerating into him means you actually have a board after you untap and have two pump activations resolved before you go to combat. I'm not saying he's amazing, but that there's enough potential here to not need to immediately count him out. Also, you forgot M13 Garruk on point 1, and he's even GGG. He was the reason Jund was disgusting last year, and a great example of Green planeswalker card draw is sick.
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Apr 9, 2014 16:27
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Mortimer posted:You typed a few thousand words describing combos ajani would work in, but that already are possible (and not good) in standard. Yeah he makes +1/+1 counters but so do a lot of cards. Yeah he's a heroic trigger but so are a lot of cards. Elspeth creates threats and can easily stall the board with them. Ajani does neither and requires threats to already be on board to do anything. Sure he can tutor the top four cards and pick one, but that's hardly a novel ability that's worth spending 5 mana for. Heroic doesn't work that way. Domri's Ultimate is amazing because it turns all your fatties into must-answer threats - Ajani does something similar for all your creatures (mana dorks, 1-drops, whatever), and gains loyalty in the process. And he draws cards better than Domri, and arguably better than Jace, in a colour combination that's overall lacking in card draw. And his ultimate basically wins the game against any deck that's trying to race you. If GW is a deck, Ajani will likely be in it.
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Apr 9, 2014 16:27
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Zoness posted:Hey, I've never lost to a leashed cackler because my win condition is Aetherling, but when a 1/1 is threatening to chump a 9/9 Kraken, well, bantwalkers can't use Ajani to shut it down anyway. 
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Apr 9, 2014 16:28
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Entropic posted:So you've ultimated Kiora vs Rakdos Aggro but still somehow aren't winning yet? Look, I just think they're missing out on some cool design space here.
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Apr 9, 2014 16:30
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mango sentinel posted:I'm not gonna assess whether new Ajani is a good card overall. I am gonna say his ultimate is garbage. PW ults should be giving you a huge push to end the game. Gaining 100 life in most circumstances is either a pointless win more or reads "end this game with in draw." I'm sure all the Johnnys out there with their Felidar Sovereign decks are excited, but that's a pretty awful ult. Yeah. Gaining life is great when you're in danger of losing the game by damage. If you're taking enough damage that you really want to gain that life, it's unlikely Ajani ever gets to 8 in the first place. I guess your opponent could be ignoring Ajani while trying to burn you down, and you somehow stop them short enough to get the -8 off, but that seems like it'd be fairly rare (and a bad play from your opponent). If you're not taking damage in the first place, then just using one of his +1s gives you more value and a better chance of maintaining control of the board than gaining an unnecessary amount of extra life.
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Apr 9, 2014 16:32
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I would love to see the version of this thread when Sphinx's Revelation got spoiled. This thread has been hilariously bad at evaluating spoilers.
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Apr 9, 2014 16:32
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