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Zoness posted:Hey, I've never lost to a leashed cackler because my win condition is Aetherling, but when a 1/1 is threatening to chump a 9/9 Kraken, well, bantwalkers can't use Ajani to shut it down anyway. It's MUCH better than Knight Errant's ultimate.
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Apr 9, 2014 16:32
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Entropic posted:Are people actually calling "-8: you basically cannot lose the game now" a bad do-nothing ultimate? Zoness posted:I don't think they realize that it's about as useful as Elspeth, Knight-Errant's ultimate. Maybe even better. EDIT: Elspeth's ult is largely a win more as well, since how is the opponent not dead from that many Angelic Blessings, but at least it will help you win the game instead of drawing it out. mango sentinel fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Apr 9, 2014 |
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Apr 9, 2014 16:34
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ChewyLSB posted:He actually isn't a heroic trigger. But anyways... That really is not at all the point Baron was making. This thread is "so he's bad, 100 life lol lifegain is for bads." and so on. All Baron is saying is that A. this thread is bad at recognizing the playability of new cards. B. It is fun to talk about cards, but more so in the nature of cool, what can this be used for? not "does this fit into an existing deck? gently caress it if not." That is the line of discussion that tends to happen here, and it is silly. Take a trip down memory lane and see if anyone was testing GR monsters/Jund monsters when Courser was revealed or if they were just like "oh a less good Oracle of Mul Daya" I'll save you the time: they poo poo on it as a less good Oracle. Baron took the time to look up some cards and float a few ideas for a new card and basically he gets poo poo on. This thread sucks sometimes.
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Apr 9, 2014 16:35
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Nibble posted:Yeah. Gaining life is great when you're in danger of losing the game by damage. If you're taking enough damage that you really want to gain that life, it's unlikely Ajani ever gets to 8 in the first place. I guess your opponent could be ignoring Ajani while trying to burn you down, and you somehow stop them short enough to get the -8 off, but that seems like it'd be fairly rare (and a bad play from your opponent). If you're not taking damage in the first place, then just using one of his +1s gives you more value and a better chance of maintaining control of the board than gaining an unnecessary amount of extra life. There are lots and lots of games where your opponent gets you to a low life total and forces you to act defensively or lose. You might have threats but attacking with them would mean losing on the crack back. If your life total jumps from 5 to 105 all of a sudden you don't need to worry about dying the next turn.
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Apr 9, 2014 16:36
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mango sentinel posted:Yes. How does it do anything other than guarantee a draw game unless you were already winning? Baron answered this but I'll repeat it. You are in a board stall. If you swing they'll swing back and kill you. Gain +100 life, go on the offensive. That is one way.
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Apr 9, 2014 16:36
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Any price thoughts on this JIX stuff? Godsend was just posted on TCG and it's ~15. Iroas and Keranos are around 17. Does anyone think those will hold? I don't. I'll be shocked if Ajani doesn't start at over 20 though.
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Apr 9, 2014 16:38
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jassi007 posted:That really is not at all the point Baron was making. This thread is "so he's bad, 100 life lol lifegain is for bads." and so on. All Baron is saying is that A. this thread is bad at recognizing the playability of new cards. B. It is fun to talk about cards, but more so in the nature of cool, what can this be used for? not "does this fit into an existing deck? gently caress it if not." I appreciate what baron was trying to do. I love new ideas for decks that can be used in this boring standard format that is beyond the usual 4-5 kinds of decks. MURDERGOATS was one and I think with iroas and godsend released a variant of a naya token midrange with , brimaz, precinct captain, assemble the legion, voice of resurgence, archangel of thune and the new ajani.
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Apr 9, 2014 16:39
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mango sentinel posted:Yes. How does it do anything other than guarantee a draw game unless you were already winning? By allowing you to swing for the fences without worrying about having to leave blockers.
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Apr 9, 2014 16:40
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Count Bleck posted:Kind of like Elspeth, Sun's Champion, right? Elspeth did exactly the kinds of things a deck willing to pay 6 for a planeswalker would want to do. Immediately affect the board defending both herself and you; get rid of problem creatures; have an ultimate that synergizes with the +1 and which will usually win you the game immediately. The only way anyone would be skeptical about Elspeth is either if they're terrible or they anticipate a context where she's not getting a good enough home. Maybe Ajani gets a context where he's good but right now there doesn't seem to be one and creating one is going to require some unexpected leaps. Things like: The development of a Bant Control deck with enough walkers, auras, or creatures to justify using Ajani almost exclusively for his dig. Or a midrange GW deck rather than a more aggressive one that just wants to end the game by this point. One that would rather slowly grind out value with a tide of mid-large dudes and doesn't simultaneously have something more impactful to play at 5. mcmagic posted:Any price thoughts on this JIX stuff? I think Keranos is good enough to justify the price but I don't think he has a home to justify it yet. Sort of brainstorming a RUG control with him and Courser but there's still a lot of unanswered questions for it. He could be okay in UW but losing the Courser makes Keranos a lot less potent -- you still draw dead if you hit two lands in a row now, and you don't have the near constant stream of bolts. Nehru the Damaja fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Apr 9, 2014 |
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Apr 9, 2014 16:42
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mcmagic posted:Any price thoughts on this JIX stuff? Ajani is a planeswalker, and may be playable, so he'll start at $25 min I'd guess. I feel like he's going to be popular overall, whether or not he find a home in a standard deck, so I'd guess pre-release price will tick up to 40ish. Keranos has real potential as a control finisher, he may very well enable UR control or UWR control in standard, so don't look for him to fall much until he's proven not good (I think he's good). Iroas may not be as likely to find a home, but people will sure try. Gruul Warchant is a similar card, and frontline medic, I'm not sure stapling the two together is good enough. I feel high devotion creatures are less likely to turn on in aggro decks, they tend to run smaller threats. A deck like Rw Devotion might want him, but that deck has to many problems in the current meta (I love big boros). Plus boros reckoner being the main devotion enabler, but synergizing terribly with Iroas is not great.
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Apr 9, 2014 16:45
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Well, for starters, 100 life is about 13 turns for an Aetherling to chip away at. That's a pretty sizeable clock. And the threat of 100 life is another turn against an Aetherling. U/W control builds aren't all about grinding their opponents out - winning at the right time with Aetherling is at least as important as coming out ahead in inevitability. mango sentinel posted:
Elspeth emblem didn't guarantee a win in the matchup where it was likely to go off since Cruel Ultimatum was a thing. The most relevant thing it could do is protect your lands from an Ajani (Vengeant) ultimate, but Ajani was going to be nuking an Elspeth that got close to that range anyway.
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Apr 9, 2014 16:46
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jassi007 posted:Baron answered this but I'll repeat it. You are in a board stall. If you swing they'll swing back and kill you. Gain +100 life, go on the offensive. That is one way. Yeah, that lifegain matters when you are in a racing situation, but can't properly attack because you will die on the swingback. HOWEVER THE LIFEGAIN IS THE LEAST IMPORTANT PART OF THE CARD The first 2 abilities are really what matter. The first ability lets you turn an Elvish Mystic into a 4/4 giving your early game accelerants late game punch. You can also distribute those counters among other creatures. This isn't great, but does show it has some use in a midrange/ramp deck of some stripe. The second ability draws you a relevant card. +1, draw a card you need. This guarantees a constant stream of threats, perhaps letting you get up on monoblacks 1 for 1 removal, or trading more effectively against control. Again, neither of these 2 abilities is jaw-droppingly amazing....but they do have potential uses against cards/strategies in the current meta. It may be to slow, 5 mana is a lot, but I could certainly see it, at minimum, as a sideboard card in Bant Walekrs/Junk Midrange. This card isn't an Ashiok or a Tybalt, its closer to a Jace, Memory Adept, an overcosted, but sometimes still decent role-player in decks.
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Apr 9, 2014 16:47
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New Ajani plus multiples of corpsejack menace  Replacement effects that read "instead of x, do 2x" stack multiplicatively, correct? quote:614.5. A replacement effect doesn't invoke itself repeatedly; it gets only one opportunity to affect an event or any modified events that may replace it.
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Apr 9, 2014 16:54
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I have no idea why bant walkers or any control shell would run this card. Ajani is a planeswalker for creature decks. The only thing his +1 can find that's relevant for a control deck is another planeswalker. Spending 5 mana for something that doesn't let you dig to that card you really need is pretty underwhelming for a control deck. For a creature deck, compare him to Garruk. He's one mana less but in two colors. Garruk is threatening against the one for one decks like mono B because he will overwhelm your resources even if you downfall him on the spot. And Garruk is not played that much, only a 1 or 2 of in Green Devotion and some monster lists. If Ajani has a home, it will be in some creature midrange deck that doesn't exist right now.
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Apr 9, 2014 16:58
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Zoness posted:Hey, I've never lost to a leashed cackler because my win condition is Aetherling, but when a 1/1 is threatening to chump a 9/9 Kraken, well, bantwalkers can't use Ajani to shut it down anyway. No this is wrong. Elspeth KE makes everything indestructible. Therefore you can just start swinging away with no fear of your creatures dying. Gaining 100 life doesn't prevent your creatures from dying...you can still lose the war of attrition with Ajani. I don't think his -8 is a Win-Con quite like some other PWs are. I think it is more of a stall to just cause aggrevation.
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Apr 9, 2014 16:59
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OssiansFolly posted:No this is wrong. Elspeth KE makes everything indestructible. Therefore you can just start swinging away with no fear of your creatures dying. Gaining 100 life doesn't prevent your creatures from dying...you can still lose the war of attrition with Ajani. Have you ever played with Elspeth, Knight-Errant outside of EDH or MMA/Alara limited? By the time you hit +8 on her, actually getting the emblem is completely irrelevant, barring a durdle match against Ajani Vengeant. Zoness fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Apr 9, 2014 |
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Apr 9, 2014 17:01
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+1/+1 counters stay on a Mutavault after it ceases becoming a creature right?
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Apr 9, 2014 17:02
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Bosushi! posted:+1/+1 counters stay on a Mutavault after it ceases becoming a creature right? Yes.
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Apr 9, 2014 17:04
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Bosushi! posted:+1/+1 counters stay on a Mutavault after it ceases becoming a creature right? Yes. See also: Raging Ravine.
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Apr 9, 2014 17:04
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Zoness posted:Well, for starters, 100 life is about 13 turns for an Aetherling to chip away at. That's a pretty sizeable clock. if aetherling is out he could probably spare an unblockable swing at ajani for a turn and nuke him before he ults ajani is cool though and honestly what else is green/white running that costs 5 with thragtusk no longer here? possibly archangel of thune, possibly arbor colossus. otherwise there is nothing in that slot and does a lot more than either the turn it comes into play with either +1  worlds dopest edit to save this post before trolls pwn it: i forgot kalonian hydra but i still think ajani is better than it on the curve starbarry clock fucked around with this message at 17:13 on Apr 9, 2014 |
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Apr 9, 2014 17:06
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jassi007 posted:That really is not at all the point Baron was making. This thread is "so he's bad, 100 life lol lifegain is for bads." and so on. All Baron is saying is that A. this thread is bad at recognizing the playability of new cards. B. It is fun to talk about cards, but more so in the nature of cool, what can this be used for? not "does this fit into an existing deck? gently caress it if not."  Pretty much. I've said over and over I could be horribly wrong, but it's way more fun to speculate and explore the card than to say, "I'm clever because I said this sucked immediately and turned out to be right." What's the point of this GAME otherwise? (emphasis added, because even I forget that sometimes)jassi007 posted:Baron answered this but I'll repeat it. You are in a board stall. If you swing they'll swing back and kill you. Gain +100 life, go on the offensive. That is one way. Madmarker posted:Yeah, that lifegain matters when you are in a racing situation, but can't properly attack because you will die on the swingback. It's just a bonus. It's a distraction people are fixating on as the primary measure of this card's worth for some reason. Just like Elspeth KE, the ultimate is rarely used and really reads, "I am doing this because I am either already winning and have nothing else to do OR it's one of those rare cases where it's very relevant and tips the balance on a close game." I agree with whoever said this ultimate is BETTER than Elspeth's emblem, in that it immediately affects the game's balance. It's by far the LEAST important feature of this card. I even ignore DOMRI'S ultimate in evaluating him. Planeswalker ultimates, aside from Kiora and Elspeth SC, are almost never something you actively work toward in a Standard deck, at least if you're playing seriously. How many times has anyone seen or played Jace AOT's -8? How often do we make a bunch of kitties with 3 mana Ajani? The ultimate is always a bonus that you only reach if, A) You're hard up and it's all you have to work with (hand is empty, walker down with a little protection, try to ultimate before you die as a last resort), or B) You're already SO ahead that it just seals the game up (if you protected Jace to get him to 8+ loyalty, you already have the game in a stranglehold). Even the weird case of Kiora isn't set in stone. I often minus her for advantage knowing she's going to die. I only plus her on a board where I know I have a decent chance at defending her to 5. Even when that fails, she NEVER fails to soak up a removal spell or a few attacks. There's a more subtle, hidden value to planeswalkers in how their presence on the board affects your opponent's decision tree in addition to the direct advantage you get from the abilities. If you saw Ajani come down across the table on turn 3 or 4 and start making huge elves or drawing extra cards and just ignore it? The ultimate's not 100% irrelevant, but I'd say it's 98%. Try this: Cover up the ultimate and play the card that way. Are either of those abilities something you never want to do? Will they never help you on even a fringe case board configuration? You will get value for playing him, be it in card draw or turning a 1/1 into a 4/4. He can tip board stalls, he can power through sweepers by drawing you cards (including more planeswalkers)....the more I have to defend him the more I'm seeing how drat useful he can be. He just needs some support, and I hope the rest of spoiler season shows him some love. Devor posted:New Ajani plus multiples of corpsejack menace Yes. Junk big stuff. Now toss in Kalonian Hydra and get poo poo done 
BaronVonVaderham fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Apr 9, 2014 |
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Apr 9, 2014 17:08
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Keranos is awesome but r/u sucks right now so I'm hoping he drops a little. Curious to see if there is anything else in this set to bump izzet up some more. Keranos may have been the late game answer izzet needed, which would be cool. None of the playable god cards have kept that high a price though, even though some started up there.
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Apr 9, 2014 17:12
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Ajani chat: I agree w/ baron. Having two +1 options is very nice. The first lets you strengthen your board presence and the second is a good alternative to Garruk's + ability, in order to create a board presence if it's not there already. I'm a bad player and I approve this card.
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Apr 9, 2014 17:14
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I'm surprised they costed Ajani at the exact same cost as Karametra, which makes me wonder if one of those was set at 2GW initially but turned out to be way too strong. I'm a lot more hopeful about this set making some new deck archetypes viable so far than I was about Born of the Gods.
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Apr 9, 2014 17:15
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Patrick Sullivan @BasicMountain 2m Of all the Planeswalker ultimates that add a lot of splash to the text box without adding much actual power, Ajani might score the highest.
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Apr 9, 2014 17:15
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Fingers McLongDong posted:Keranos is awesome but r/u sucks right now so I'm hoping he drops a little. Curious to see if there is anything else in this set to bump izzet up some more. Keranos may have been the late game answer izzet needed, which would be cool. None of the playable god cards have kept that high a price though, even though some started up there. The thing is I think that the combination of a scry land and Keranos is enough to make UR not suck anymore. My izzet control juices are flowing hard. I want to build that deck so very much.
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Apr 9, 2014 17:16
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jassi007 posted:That is the line of discussion that tends to happen here, and it is silly. Take a trip down memory lane and see if anyone was testing GR monsters/Jund monsters when Courser was revealed or if they were just like "oh a less good Oracle of Mul Daya" I'll save you the time: they poo poo on it as a less good Oracle. Hey now, let's not channel Worldwake with our Selective Memories: Lord Of Texas posted:This guy is good. Doesn't ramp like Oracle (although it can if your hand is landless), but it exists in a set with plentiful Scry, and the 2 extra toughness + 1 less CMC is huge. This can effectively draw you a bunch of cards over the course of a game and block like a boss. I can definitely see this being played in Standard or Block. If you have a well-formed positive opinion of a card, post it. If you have a well-formed negative opinion of a card, post it. The only useless posts are the ones that have no content, whether positive or negative.
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Apr 9, 2014 17:16
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Kinda wanna build Bant just to get Master Biomancer and Brimaz out together. Getting 3/3+ cats would be pretty silly.
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Apr 9, 2014 17:17
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PhyrexianLibrarian posted:I'm a lot more hopeful about this set making some new deck archetypes viable so far than I was about Born of the Gods. Agreed. I fell out of love with Standard during BOTG spoilers, and I know it's only 3 days into this set....but I have a little hope that things will get better  .Mikujin posted:Kinda wanna build Bant just to get Master Biomancer and Brimaz out together. Getting 3/3+ cats would be pretty silly. A guy at my store built Bant with Elspeth and Master Biomancer. He's not a great deckbuilder, so it wasn't consistent and lacked a lot of necessary tools, but it was a cool idea I've been toying with. I think Master Biomancer is a great card that might see some more play, the same with many Simic cards from RTR block that have fallen into obscurity. Non-Ajani Chat Edit: This just reminded me of a cool combo a friend of mine has been trying to make work. Horizon Chimera + Archangel of Thune + Fathom Mage. It sets off a loop of potentially infinite life gain, creature growth, and card draw (one of them is a "may" or else you'd kill yourself as soon as you tipped the first domino). It's a little fragile, but I'm excited to see new things being tried. BaronVonVaderham fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Apr 9, 2014 |
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Apr 9, 2014 17:20
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jassi007 posted:The thing is I think that the combination of a scry land and Keranos is enough to make UR not suck anymore. My izzet control juices are flowing hard. I want to build that deck so very much. Oh I'll be doing my best to get probably 3 copies of keranos and a set of the izzet scrylands to build a new deck asap. Izzet has neat control stuff between a big suite of counters and red board wipers. Keranos + prognostic sphinx and maybe an aetherling as the late game wincons seems fun enough.
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Apr 9, 2014 17:22
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Fingers McLongDong posted:Oh I'll be doing my best to get probably 3 copies of keranos and a set of the izzet scrylands to build a new deck asap. Izzet has neat control stuff between a big suite of counters and red board wipers. Keranos + prognostic sphinx and maybe an aetherling as the late game wincons seems fun enough. I really wish spellheart chimera was a little more viable. I love the idea of holding them off, removing their dudes, and beating them with a guy powered by the remnants of my spells that shattered their gameplan.
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Apr 9, 2014 17:28
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Goons are loving terrible at evaluating cards.
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Apr 9, 2014 17:36
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I'm playing Izzet Spellheart right now and it's not bad at all. Look at some of the recent Brewhaus thread pages for more details. Turn/Burn is amazing, Steam Augury works with Spellheart, you get Cyclonic Rift and Anger of the Gods in the same 75, Young Pyromancer too. I think the deck will be quite strong with Temple of Epiphany and Keranos.
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Apr 9, 2014 17:38
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Lord Of Texas posted:Hey now, let's not channel Worldwake with our Selective Memories: Yeah I recall posting about how cool I thought Courser was too! Also I called Ephara being playable in sweet midrange UW! I am also certain I defended Tibalt as playable in some vague and undefined scenario  I would argue that another useless post is one saying "this thread has bad card evaluations so of course you all hate everything" because that is a statement that swings both ways, so saying it without any self awareness is sort of funny. Boco_T posted:I'm playing Izzet Spellheart right now and it's not bad at all. Look at some of the recent Brewhaus thread pages for more details. Turn/Burn is amazing, Steam Augury works with Spellheart, you get Cyclonic Rift and Anger of the Gods in the same 75, Young Pyromancer too. I think the deck will be quite strong with Temple of Epiphany and Keranos. With all of the 4 toughness things kicking around this Standard you'd think they were going to print Lightning Bolt in the core set. I wish Anger of the Gods hit more stuff or overloaded Mortars wasn't six. It sucks that URs only solutions to Desecration Demon are Turn/Burn and countering it. rabidsquid fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Apr 9, 2014 |
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Apr 9, 2014 17:39
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Boco_T posted:I'm playing Izzet Spellheart right now and it's not bad at all. Look at some of the recent Brewhaus thread pages for more details. Turn/Burn is amazing, Steam Augury works with Spellheart, you get Cyclonic Rift and Anger of the Gods in the same 75, Young Pyromancer too. I think the deck will be quite strong with Temple of Epiphany and Keranos. Ive got most of the pieces for this but I was waiting for JOU to see what keranos or other options would pop up. If spellheart could survive an anger of the gods he would be amazing.
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Apr 9, 2014 17:43
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^^^ Yeah that 3 toughness is holding chimera back right now. If only there were ways to pump it and provide a benefit to the graveyard...mcmagic posted:Any price thoughts on this JIX stuff?
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Apr 9, 2014 17:46
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rabidsquid posted:With all of the 4 toughness things kicking around this Standard you'd think they were going to print Lightning Bolt in the core set. I wish Anger of the Gods hit more stuff or overloaded Mortars wasn't six. It sucks that URs only solutions to Desecration Demon are Turn/Burn and countering it.
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Apr 9, 2014 17:56
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mcmagic posted:I'm pretty sure Ashiok is still terrible even if he gets a little standard play. There is a reason it's a 6 dollar mythic rare. People thought Elspeth would see no play because she was too expensive and didnt "do much".
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Apr 9, 2014 17:58
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Konstantin posted:It's interesting, but I really think it should be uncommon rather than rare. I don't see this going anywhere near constructed play, and it's not that high a pick in Limited, especially since JIN will be opened first so you won't know if you will end up with a lot of Heroic cards. I'm considering trying a Modern Fight Club deck with Obliterators, so it's on my radar. Idea probably won't work though.
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Apr 9, 2014 17:59
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Anyways, here's the Grixis Chimera deck. http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-izzetgoyf-demands-sacrifice/ She's interested in feedback on it.
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Apr 9, 2014 18:08
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