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Selesnya's been a very bad place since Theros, really, and Born just made things a lot worse. Selesnya's strengths: -Voice of Resurgence -The most efficiently costed beaters in standard. Two different Watchwolves, Smiter is a 4/4 for 3 which is still fairly nuts. Oh, and the ability to play Brimaz is always a plus. -Advent of the Wurm -Resilency to board wipes with Rootborn Defenses, Voice, and Advent coming in after the wipe. -Selesnya Charm, one of the best utility spells in Standard. Unfortunately, in practice, most of the decks in current standard run all over Selesnya, particularly anything with black in them. (Which is EVERYTHING.) At 5 mana, Ajani doesn't really play well with any of Selesnya's strengths, doesn't do much to patch the deck's weaknesses, and it feels like he'd best fit into an inferior version of GR Monsters. Sure, he's potential card advantage, but why play him when you could just play the deck that does the same thing, but gets better tools and finishers?
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Apr 9, 2014 18:13
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I think Ajani fits in Gw ramp rather than anything else. Do you have crappy ramp dudes out? He makes them non-crappy. Do you have no gas? He finds you gas. He doesn't seem great, but if he doesn't see any Standard play I'd be surprised.
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Apr 9, 2014 18:20
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I feel like a ramp deck ought to have better things to do with 5 mana than make an elf 4/4 on turn 3.
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Apr 9, 2014 18:25
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Honestly, I like Ajani in a Bant Walkers shell. Dropping him the turn after the board wipe and digging for Elspeth, Jace, Kiora etc. seems like a fairly solid game plan. Not to mention that if that kind of deck does run utility creatures, he turns them into respectable beaters really quickly. I don't know if such a deck will exist, or if anyone will play it, but if any card would create the archetype its him.
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Apr 9, 2014 18:27
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Zemyla posted:Anyways, here's the Grixis Chimera deck. Has she considered hypersonic dragon over stormbreath? Allows you to play anger, divination and dreadbore at instant speed.
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Apr 9, 2014 18:27
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Elyv posted:I think Ajani fits in Gw ramp rather than anything else. Do you have crappy ramp dudes out? He makes them non-crappy. Do you have no gas? He finds you gas. Would you rather play Ajani or Monstrous a Fleecemane Lion?
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Apr 9, 2014 18:28
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mcmagic posted:Would you rather play Ajani or Monstrous a Fleecemane Lion? I don't believe that a deck that runs Ajani should be running Fleecemane and vice versa.
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Apr 9, 2014 18:30
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I think ajani is a okay card that is getting criticism because it is not fitting into the general archetypes that are currently in standard. Perhaps when more things have been spoiled and rtr and such have rotated then we will get a better look at it. For now, in a vacuum it just doesn't look that good.
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Apr 9, 2014 18:31
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Nehru the Damaja posted:I feel like a ramp deck ought to have better things to do with 5 mana than make an elf 4/4 on turn 3. Whilst I see your point, that elf can untap and attack as a 7/7 next turn if it and Ajani live. Obviously a lot can happen to stop that, but your still forcing the opponent to find answers before he ultimates. Doesn't strictly protect itself but he can dig for answers. Enlarging last endsteps Advent Wurm seems a good entrance too.
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Apr 9, 2014 18:33
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Samael posted:I think ajani is a okay card that is getting criticism because it is not fitting into the general archetypes that are currently in standard. Perhaps when more things have been spoiled and rtr and such have rotated then we will get a better look at it. For now, in a vacuum it just doesn't look that good. People wanted the Aggro GW planeswalker, and he is a decidedly midrange card.
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Apr 9, 2014 18:34
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Samael posted:I think ajani is a okay card that is getting criticism because it is not fitting into the general archetypes that are currently in standard. Perhaps when more things have been spoiled and rtr and such have rotated then we will get a better look at it. For now, in a vacuum it just doesn't look that good. It basically needs a GW midrange deck without more explosive options at 5 and which is either resilient to one-for-ones and sweeps or which exists in an environment where removal drops dramatically. I guess bestow helps with the resilience but I don't know that Boon Satyr and Eidolon are enough or even coexist in the same kind of deck. Voice obviously helps too but his days are numbered. Nehru the Damaja fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Apr 9, 2014 |
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Apr 9, 2014 18:35
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Samael posted:I think ajani is a okay card that is getting criticism because it is not fitting into the general archetypes that are currently in standard. Perhaps when more things have been spoiled and rtr and such have rotated then we will get a better look at it. For now, in a vacuum it just doesn't look that good. That is another option to consider: I'm hopeful that the rest of the spoilers open up a GW/Bant deck this season, but it's entirely possible that it will just sit in binders until the core set is out this summer or even the next block starts in October. It's happened before... But even if it fails horribly, at least it's a fun toy to play with...way more fun than playing mono black until the end of time. Nehru the Damaja posted:It basically needs a GW midrange deck without more explosive options at 5 and which is either resilient to one-for-ones and sweeps or which exists in an environment where removal drops dramatically. I guess bestow helps with the resilience but I don't know that Boon Satyr and Eidolon are enough or even coexist in the same kind of deck. I actually think he's best in a flash style bant deck, which would be very resilient against both aggro and control. Surprise blockers against an alpha strike, flash in at EOT after a sweeper (with things like Voice that are resilient already), Mistcutter Hydra is still a thing....it's a way to more readily get value out of his counter ability without an existing board presence. That ability also helps vs control in that you don't need to overextend to make a worthwhile attack and keep your clock in the low single digits. +3/+3 for no mana (once he's down) is way better than committing even another 2/2 to the board and risking a wrath...and even better if that thing has haste or pseudo-haste thanks to flash. BaronVonVaderham fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Apr 9, 2014 |
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Apr 9, 2014 18:35
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Samael posted:Has she considered hypersonic dragon over stormbreath? Allows you to play anger, divination and dreadbore at instant speed. I'm pretty sure the ability to play any of those at instant speed is outright irrelevant compared to pro-white and the monstrosity ability.
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Apr 9, 2014 18:38
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Most backbreaking Hypersonic play I ever saw was in limited. Instant speed Threaten effect on a lethal swing to blunt two attacks and two-for-one me. I lost shortly thereafter.
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Apr 9, 2014 18:40
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Elyv posted:I don't believe that a deck that runs Ajani should be running Fleecemane and vice versa. I disagree. Fleeceman is a good early threat for a midrange deck that can end the game if its needs to and Ajani is a good in a creature heavy midrange deck. Yeah, 3 +1/+1 counters every turn probably for multiple turns AND card draw without losing loyalty is a good you guys are all nuts if you think thats bad. Don't play more than 2 of him in your deck and don't play him to an empty board. Not everything can be Jace the Mindsculplor.
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Apr 9, 2014 18:41
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I'm playing a Bant control deck, and as much as I would like to utilize the new Ajani, he won't fetch me my spells. I might give him a play test with a more creature heavy deck and see how it goes though. I could see him being played in a bigger Selesnya deck that ramps. Buff up your rampers, fetch threats, get killed by Hero's downfall instead of one my threatening dudes.
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Apr 9, 2014 18:45
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legoman727 posted:Selesnya's been a very bad place since Theros, really, and Born just made things a lot worse.
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Apr 9, 2014 18:46
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Zorak posted:People thought Elspeth would see no play because she was too expensive and didnt "do much". Sure, but that was an objectively poor assessment. Anyone can see how valuable Elspeth is.
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Apr 9, 2014 18:49
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What a Judas posted:Goons are loving terrible at evaluating cards. This. Reminder that RtR spoilers involved people talking up Dryad Militant as an eternal all-star, crowning Vraska "the second-best planeswalker ever printed," and writing off Abrupt Decay.
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Apr 9, 2014 18:49
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Deckit posted:I'm playing a Bant control deck, and as much as I would like to utilize the new Ajani, he won't fetch me my spells. I might give him a play test with a more creature heavy deck and see how it goes though. I play Bant control too, and he is NOT meant for a control deck. He can be in a superfriends deck, MAYBE, since he fetches walkers, but he's a midrange planeswalker that plays well with creatures, and that fetch clause is a nice bonus if you run another midrange walker like Garruk with him. That clause really fetches creatures and enchantments (read: auras for said creatures), but it's probably nice to also not miss that Garruk you really needed sometimes. Because he can get enchantments, I can see a Big Fatass Voltron Hexproof deck trying him, but really the only relevant enchantment that came to mind reading that line was Primeval Bounty. Again, he screams midrange.
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Apr 9, 2014 18:49
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BaronVonVaderham posted:That is another option to consider: I'm hopeful that the rest of the spoilers open up a GW/Bant deck this season, but it's entirely possible that it will just sit in binders until the core set is out this summer or even the next block starts in October. It's happened before... Well, I am looking at a mainly green with bant colour superfriends with elspeth, ajani, kiora and ephara but I could be completely wrong and bad. 4x Slyvan Caraytid 4x Voice of Resurgence 3x Courser of Kruphix 3x Brimaz, Kitty King 3x Polukranos 2x Kiora 2x Ajani 2x Elspeth 2x Ephara 4x Sphinx Rev 3x Det Spheres 3x Rootborn Defenses Lands and stuff
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Apr 9, 2014 18:50
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His ultimate doesn't involve flipping multiple coins. Ajani is THE WORST PLANESWALKER.
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Apr 9, 2014 18:52
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tzirean posted:This. Reminder that RtR spoilers involved people talking up Dryad Militant as an eternal all-star, crowning Vraska "the second-best planeswalker ever printed," and writing off Abrupt Decay. Some guys at my LGS were saying Vraska was "better than Mind Sculptor." There's a chance they meant Architect, where they'd still be wrong but at least they'd be in good company because it took a while for Jace to come into his own and to my knowledge there weren't many walkers where you planned to just minus them twice for card advantage and be satisfied with it. edit: One thing I do like about Ajani not from a power level perspective but a design one is that the only enchants he can dig up are auras, but because Bestow is a creature in its main form, he can still dig those up to be used like auras. Good way to keep him focused on creature stuff without accidentally excluding bestows.
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Apr 9, 2014 18:54
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Ajani is a good card, it's merely up to us to find the deck that makes the most use of him.
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Apr 9, 2014 18:54
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Sorry to keep up the Lifecat chat, but since my pet deck is monsters, my head went to Naya monsters right away. I'm pretty bad at theory building; is there an obvious reason that wouldn't work? You get pretty good removal with chained to the rocks, and Ajani seems better than the odd Pyromaster the deck was running before. Does Chained just stretch the manabase a little too far? Is the loss of walker removal too damaging to make up for the increased ability to find gas? Or is this just a "I'll have to test it" sorta situation? EDIT: also, random question - why is sacred foundry so much more expensive than the other shocks? I feel like it's been that way since before Boros burn was a thing. Boxman fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Apr 9, 2014 |
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Apr 9, 2014 18:55
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Selesnya Ajani could be used in the hexproof deck, straight GW or Naya. The 1st ability is a bit like the Gavony Township effect GW has been lacking since last October, and the 2nd ability looks good for finding combo pieces at it's most basic level. I'd be open to playtest it.
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Apr 9, 2014 18:57
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Boxman posted:Sorry to keep up the Lifecat chat, but since my pet deck is monsters, my head went to Naya monsters right away. Is there a reason that wouldn't work? You get pretty good removal with chained to the rocks, and Ajani seems better than the odd Pyromaster the deck was running before. Does Chained just stretch the manabase a little too far? Is the loss of walker removal too damaging to make up for the increased ability to find gas? Iroas in a naya monsters deck would be quite fun to see, the synergy between domri, courser and ajani looks very good. With stomping ground and sacred foundries it shouldn't be hard to find a land for chained to target.
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Apr 9, 2014 18:58
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Samael posted:Well, I am looking at a mainly green with bant colour superfriends with elspeth, ajani, kiora and ephara but I could be completely wrong and bad. I had two lines of thought running. The first was a similar superfriends build, though Ephara is an interesting addition I hadn't considered. The other was more flash creatures: 4x Voice of Resurgence 4x Shambleshark 4x Horizon Chimera 4x Boon Satyr 4x Skylasher 4x Mistcutter Hydra 4x Selsyna Charm 4x Advent of the Wurm 3x Rootborn Defenses 3x Ajani Very rough sketch. Maybe some Simic Charms, maybe Chimera doesn't make the final cut in favor of some mana dorks for consistency/speed, but you get the general idea: play everything on the opponent's turn, Ajani is there to buff before battle or dig for more. I'm more intrigued by abusing things like Fathom Mage and Master Biomancer, but I'll have to get back to you on that after I've given it some real thought rather than the half-assed idea above.
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Apr 9, 2014 18:59
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BaronVonVaderham posted:I had two lines of thought running. The first was a similar superfriends build, though Ephara is an interesting addition I hadn't considered. The other was more flash creatures: Yeah mine was completely on the spot too, but the base idea has been brewing in my head for some time. I like that rootborn defenses and ephara would work well together and with brimaz, elspeth, ajani and all the planeswalkers running around she could get turned on as a creature and start swinging in. Gum up the ground with recurring creatures and tokens with voice, brimaz and win through sheer numbers, pumped up creatures through ajani or simply resolving kiora's or elspeth's ultimate.
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Apr 9, 2014 19:03
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Angry Grimace posted:Sure, but that was an objectively poor assessment. Anyone can see how valuable Elspeth is.  Zoness posted:I'm pretty sure the ability to play any of those at instant speed is outright irrelevant compared to pro-white and the monstrosity ability. She says Hypersonic Dragon is strictly cooler, though.
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Apr 9, 2014 19:05
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Madmarker posted:People wanted the Aggro GW planeswalker, and he is a decidedly midrange card. You are probably right but it isnt logical to expect an aggro ajani when we already have one, the m14 ajani is most certainly the aggro ajani.
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Apr 9, 2014 19:08
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Ajani seems pretty good in Theros block constructed, the Naya midrange deck would love a way to dig for Elspeth and Stormbreath Dragons. It gets to 5 loyalty the turn you play it to get out of Stormbreath Dragon range and can sit behind your Sylvan Caryatids. Even the ultimate isn't bad, with 100 extra life the Theros block control deck cannot kill you if you are able to deal with their 4 Elspeths, and the aggro decks probably cannot overcome it. I don't think it will see serious Standard play until rotation but it's not a bad planeswalker at all.
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Apr 9, 2014 19:20
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4x mana dork 4x sylvan caryatid 4x courser of kruphix 4x polukranos ajani add other cards as you feel fit.
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Apr 9, 2014 19:21
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Ajani is, I believe, the only conditional dig effect that hits walkers. FoF and the like still do, but of the "reveal X cards, pick a _____ from among them and put it in your hand" he's the only one who grabs walkers. Which is kind of a big deal? The traditional evaluation for walkers (which I disagree with) is "does it protect itself/can it eventually end the game?" Whereas I think a more important metric is "Does it replace itself/is it a must answer threat immediately?" And Ajani is yes to both, leaving him on board for more than a turn will lead you just getting swamped in CA and pumped dudes.
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Apr 9, 2014 19:25
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:Ajani is, I believe, the only conditional dig effect that hits walkers. FoF and the like still do, but of the "reveal X cards, pick a _____ from among them and put it in your hand" he's the only one who grabs walkers. Which is kind of a big deal? The traditional evaluation for walkers (which I disagree with) is "does it protect itself/can it eventually end the game?" Whereas I think a more important metric is "Does it replace itself/is it a must answer threat immediately?" And Ajani is yes to both, leaving him on board for more than a turn will lead you just getting swamped in CA and pumped dudes. The search ability being a plus rather than a minus (protecting himself in a way) is a big deal. He's also in colors that are able to put the opponent on the back foot quickly, or at least achieve parity with a line of dorks. Ajani makes sure that your line of dorks will quickly, if not immediately, outclass the opponent's. If the opponent sweeps, Ajani ensures that you will be refilling quickly. Elvish Mystic into Sylvan Caryatid into Ajani Turn 3 is a really strong opener.
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Apr 9, 2014 19:38
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Any ramp to Ajani with another creature besides the dork dropped as well will be really powerful. If turn 3 polukranos, turn 4 stormbreath is a thing right now in r/g monsters, I don't know why turn 3 polukranos, turn 4 ajani wouldn't be just as good.
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Apr 9, 2014 19:40
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uggy posted:4x mana dork With Super Standard this could easily be 8x mana dork, can't wait to see what kind of ridiculous green decks we can make.
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Apr 9, 2014 19:42
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rabidsquid posted:With Super Standard this could easily be 8x mana dork, can't wait to see what kind of ridiculous green decks we can make.  (also Lightning Bolt)
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Apr 9, 2014 19:54
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Bant Walkers is probably the best build for Ajani, as someone mentioned earlier. Caryatid and Mystic for ramp, Ajani and Jace for digging, and Kiora for wincon. Usually UW accouterments like D-Sphere and Sphinx's Rev, and there you go.
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Apr 9, 2014 19:54
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Konstantin posted:It's interesting, but I really think it should be uncommon rather than rare. I don't see this going anywhere near constructed play, and it's not that high a pick in Limited, especially since JIN will be opened first so you won't know if you will end up with a lot of Heroic cards. It's really drat good in limited, I think I'd happily first pick it in a full block draft. You don't need Heroic for it, you just need guys. The potential for big swing, 2 for 1 or better from it is pretty big, and the only requirement really is that you have some guys on board. It has near Plague Wind level potential if the board is even, because the small boost puts your guys just that one bit over the top so you can snap up the now smaller opponent creatures. Or just trade up at your leisure. And as you're likely green with it, you're likely to have bigger guys than the other player anyway. That it targets several guys mitigates a lot of the risk inherent with the single target fight spells, and it's Instant to boot.
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Apr 9, 2014 19:57
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