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Krypsis posted:Kind of annoyed Jasnah came back ( I kinda figured that was happening. He makes such a point of Stormlight healing terrible wounds, and the land/sea inversion in Shadesmar, that it all kind of clicked into place halfway through
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Apr 9, 2014 00:24
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I'm pretty sure most people missed it in the huge shock of the beginning of Chapter 7 but Shallan repeatedly notes that she does not see/touch Jasnah's corpse in the entire rest of the chapter, even though the assassins would have had no reason to try to move it.
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Apr 9, 2014 01:14
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The issue is that it just comes too close with howSzeth dies and is revived; this one is the big offender I think, the Jasnah survival was foreshadowed, but Szeth's resurrection was just bullshit deus ex machina. If he was to be revived so soon after he died, he shouldn't have been killed off in the first place. It really just made it feel like all the important characters in this series have plot armor, which is a big mistake and really unsatisfying. I'm absolutely convinced that the reason Sadeas died in this book as opposed to a Dalinar book was because Sanderson felt he had to have a death that stuck after pulling switcheroos with both Jasnah and Szeth
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Apr 9, 2014 02:05
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Shakugan posted:The issue is that it just comes too close with howSzeth dies and is revived; this one is the big offender I think, the Jasnah survival was foreshadowed, but Szeth's resurrection was just bullshit deus ex machina. If he was to be revived so soon after he died, he shouldn't have been killed off in the first place. It really just made it feel like all the important characters in this series have plot armor, which is a big mistake and really unsatisfying. I'm absolutely convinced that the reason Sadeas died in this book as opposed to a Dalinar book was because Sanderson felt he had to have a death that stuck after pulling switcheroos with both Jasnah and Szeth I don't really care. In storytelling terms, the death of a character is the termination of that character's storytelling potential. Sadeas's was clearly exhausted--he was defeated at every turn since the end of Way of Kings, and there was no real possibility (aside from being Borsk'd) of him being presented a viable alternative powerholder as the Final Desolation arriving has essentially declared Dalinar (even aside from him being a new Knight Radiant) the de facto winner. Such is not true of either Jasnah or Szeth. I am emphatically not a fan of authors that tend to use character deaths strictly for shock value and punctuation.
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Apr 9, 2014 02:18
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api call girl posted:I don't really care. In storytelling terms, the death of a character is the termination of that character's storytelling potential. Sadeas's was clearly exhausted--he was defeated at every turn since the end of Way of Kings, and there was no real possibility (aside from being Borsk'd) of him being presented a viable alternative powerholder as the Final Desolation arriving has essentially declared Dalinar (even aside from him being a new Knight Radiant) the de facto winner. That's true, but the point is that a death should be shocking. If you are just going to reverse it because those characters are still necessary, there must be a better way to tell the story. As it stands, those "deaths" are, in fact, just for shock value and punctuation. I would agree that this applies to Szeth more than Jasnah
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Apr 9, 2014 05:01
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Grouchy Fish posted:That's true, but the point is that a death should be shocking. If you are just going to reverse it because those characters are still necessary, there must be a better way to tell the story. As it stands, those "deaths" are, in fact, just for shock value and punctuation. I would suggest an active antagonist dying isn't really shocking, but his revival would be.
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Apr 9, 2014 05:05
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Grouchy Fish posted:That's true, but the point is that a death should be shocking. If you are just going to reverse it because those characters are still necessary, there must be a better way to tell the story. As it stands, those "deaths" are, in fact, just for shock value and punctuation. Shock and punctuation? Jasnah's death was the impetus for one of the main plots of the book. Szeth's death was character development. He's even more interesting now and the Oathstone had to be removed from the equation for his story to continue.
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Apr 9, 2014 05:19
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My point is: was death/revival really the only way for the story to be told? Death should have a finality associated with it. Removing that finality lessens its impact going forward. api call girl posted:I would suggest an active antagonist dying isn't really shocking, but his revival would be. I would agree with this for Szeth. However, Jasnah's death was a pretty cheap gotcha. I should have worded my post better. Its the revivals I dislike Grouchy Fish fucked around with this message at 06:08 on Apr 9, 2014 |
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Apr 9, 2014 06:02
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Grouchy Fish posted:My point is: was death/revival really the only way for the story to be told? Death should have a finality associated with it. Removing that finality lessens its impact going forward. It's almost like Brandon's specifically putting out there "hey, themes of reincarnation and renewal definitely figure big into my world and cosmology"
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Apr 9, 2014 06:11
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api call girl posted:It's almost like Brandon's specifically putting out there "hey, themes of reincarnation and renewal definitely figure big into my world and cosmology"
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Apr 9, 2014 06:34
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syphon posted:I get a little frustrated by that as well. I've read all the books, so it's frustrating when partaking in a discussion and being told "no you're wrong, the author confirmed that at a signing/convention/card game/blog post a few years back". With the internet being a bit more... robust I guess is the word, than during Robert Jordan's writing, it doesn't bother me too much. Finding the teasers from conventions or signings is usually just a matter of typing a few words into Google. Finding that sort of thing in the mid-late 90's meant wading through a bunch of newsgroup posts.
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Apr 9, 2014 16:47
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I would have like to see Jasnah's revival as an interlude chapter immediately after her death. It would have separated the two resurrections, and let you see everyone react to her death, while knowing she survived.
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Apr 9, 2014 17:10
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There was no reason for Szeth to die if Sanderson wanted to keep using the character. Please, someone, give me any good reason for that to have happened.
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Apr 9, 2014 20:08
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The Puppy Bowl posted:There was no reason for Szeth to die if Sanderson wanted to keep using the character. Please, someone, give me any good reason for that to have happened. To demonstrate that Heralds have access to all the surges not just those of their associated Radiants. Regrowth as well and the skybreaker gravity and (?)division(?) It needed to be more than simple Stormlight could heal Rumda fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Apr 9, 2014 |
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Apr 9, 2014 20:12
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The Puppy Bowl posted:There was no reason for Szeth to die if Sanderson wanted to keep using the character. Please, someone, give me any good reason for that to have happened. It's more that he was not quite dead, rather than dead for reals. I imagine it sets up something important about how shardblades and regrowth work (establishing regrowth an ability that has a point, given that stormlight heals already), as well as giving some dramatic irony for Szeth's belief that he'll get an eternity of torture when he dies. It also sets up a parallel between Szeth and the heralds, with him serving as a twisted version of the protecting/leading Jezrian That said, Brandon was a bit on the fence about it. quote:Q: What was the tweak you wanted to put in the end?
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Apr 9, 2014 20:19
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The Puppy Bowl posted:There was no reason for Szeth to die if Sanderson wanted to keep using the character. Please, someone, give me any good reason for that to have happened. The bond Szeth had to the honorblade also had to be cut completely, and he needed to actually die to be freed from the Oathstone, too. He repeatedly says that death is the only way to get out of his situation and hates everyone who is too weak to kill him.
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Apr 9, 2014 20:22
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Xachariah posted:Yeah there was a certain element of removing the emotional impact of her death and it throws every death afterwards into doubt. However up till she appeared at the end we didn't know she was a teleporter unless you studied the magic system. So it was a sweet reveal and Shallan got her personal growth and Jasnah has cool personal development and learned important things in/about Shadesmar. Wait, wasn't it revealed that she is a teleporter toward the end of WoK, when Shallan decided to dive headfirst into Shadesmaar and Jasnah had to pull her out? Iunnrais posted:Sometimes, I wish Brandon would learn to just say RAFO. I mean, it's nice to get some fodder for speculation and discussion tossed to the fans from time to time, but I think Brandon goes a little far with the amount he drops. Things like the deleted chapter where the fool that betrayed Shai is confirmed to be Hoid? That's good tidbits to let out, since there'd be no other way to really communicate it. Things that might actually appear in future works? I think I'd rather be surprised in most cases. Agreed. It's a little annoying that he floats out reams of information about his universe that isn't covered yet in any of the books. I don't really care about spoilers or anything like that, I would personally just prefer to read these tidbits as they are published rather than having them divulged on the side of other books. It just feels - not unlike the so-called 'Sanderson avalanche' - like an information dump with little subtlety or finesse. That, and as someone just stated, it ends up removing a lot of mystery or guesswork from his books when discussing them with other people. "Well in this book x did this and it was heavily implied tha- " "Yup, no, he confirmed that wasn't true and actually Y happens and...." So this thread aside, I try to stay away from interviews / other forums where his verbal confirmations/denials/explanations pop up. Shakugan posted:The issue is that it just comes too close with howSzeth dies and is revived; this one is the big offender I think, the Jasnah survival was foreshadowed, but Szeth's resurrection was just bullshit deus ex machina. If he was to be revived so soon after he died, he shouldn't have been killed off in the first place. It really just made it feel like all the important characters in this series have plot armor, which is a big mistake and really unsatisfying. I'm absolutely convinced that the reason Sadeas died in this book as opposed to a Dalinar book was because Sanderson felt he had to have a death that stuck after pulling switcheroos with both Jasnah and Szeth Rumda posted:To demonstrate that Heralds have access to all the surges not just those of their associated Radiants. Regrowth as well and the skybreaker gravity and (?)division(?) It needed to be more than simple Stormlight could heal 
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Apr 9, 2014 22:44
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Habibi posted:Wait, wasn't it revealed that she is a teleporter toward the end of WoK, when Shallan decided to dive headfirst into Shadesmaar and Jasnah had to pull her out? No. The transformation surge means "travelling" to cognitive mirror realm of Shadesmar in your mind to convince the spren/spirit that inhabits an item to change into something else (or sending your spren as an emissary). Shallan is a Lightweaver knight which means she has Transformation and Illusion surges. She can go to Shadesmar too to bargain for soul casting. Jasnah is an Elsecaller knight which means she has Transformation and Transportation surges. Lightweavers and Elsecallers share transformation surge so they can go to Shadesmar mentally. Only Elsecallers like Jasnah and the order of Willshapers can teleport physically. "You've been making quite a disturbance on the other side," Wit said. "It's been a long time since the spren had to deal with someone alive, particularly someone so demanding as yourself." Jasnah is basically a natural born world hopper. I believe that's how she was able to survive. But I could be mistaken. EDIT: Oh, speculation time, Elhokar sees a cryptic spren like Shallan used to and cryptics seem to give Shadesmar related surges. It might be that he is of the order of Willshapers. Xachariah fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Apr 9, 2014 |
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Apr 9, 2014 23:26
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Habibi posted:And again, there wasn't a better way to do that than to just out of nowhere revive someone whose death was well-earned and at least somewhat impactful? I dunno. And, because I've quoted enough, I find it interesting that one poster explained that Szeth wasn't "quite dead," while another claimed that he needed to be dead for plot purposes because that was the only way to unbond his Honorblade and Oathstone. I'm fairly certain the Oathstone is not a magical artifact. And that the only thing keeping him from disobeying the holder of said stone is his "honor". And so he killed all those people on his own, and so, I imagine Szeth dealing with that will be his arc going forward. Also Word of Brandon(sorry) Honorblades do not require a bond.
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Apr 9, 2014 23:36
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Regarding Jasnah/Shallan's shared abilities: I know we watched Shallan do it, but do they really have to travel to Shadesmar and bargain with an object every time they Soulcast something? That seems... tedious! We've seen Jasnah do it in 'real time' (she Soulcasted some stuff with Shallan in Kharbranth) so maybe time flows different in Shadesmar... or maybe she's just very persuasive! EDIT: How do people with fabrials do it? Does the captured spren do the bargaining for the person using it? syphon fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Apr 10, 2014 |
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Apr 9, 2014 23:54
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syphon posted:Regarding Jasnah/Shallan's shared abilities: I know we watched Shallan do it, but do they really have to travel to Shadesmar and bargain with an object every time they Soulcast something? That seems... tedious! We've seen Jasnah do it in 'real time' (she Soulcasted some stuff with Shallan in Kharbranth) so maybe time flows different in Shadesmar... or maybe she's just very persuasive! She's definitely the more experienced soulcaster, as she's had years to practice. She soulcast Shallan's blood without killing her. I think having a large amount of stormlight to 'bribe' with helps, and knowing what you can/can't do. (Maybe stick to fire is relatively hard, but something else (rock-fire) might be a bit easier. Mind you, wood and rock are both one of the essences, and so is fire, so it shouldn't be as difficult as mixing essences)
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Apr 10, 2014 00:04
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I'm pretty sure Shallan soulcast that pitcher into blood without going into Shadesmar and everytime Jasnah soulcast something in view of Shallan during Way of Kings she didn't disappear into Shadesmar or whatever.
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Apr 10, 2014 00:13
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Yeah that's what I'm saying. If going into Shadesmar is all in your head (and time runs differently or something), to the third party viewer, it could look like things just instantly changed. However, we just don't know if the Soulcaster has to bargain every time, or only sometimes, and when those times are (unless Brandon has already explained it all at a convention, that is).
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Apr 10, 2014 00:17
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Fezz posted:I'm pretty sure Shallan soulcast that pitcher into blood without going into Shadesmar and everytime Jasnah soulcast something in view of Shallan during Way of Kings she didn't disappear into Shadesmar or whatever. That's not how it works their mental focus can become aware of shadesmar with the transformation surge but to physically travel you'll need to use the transportation surge.
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Apr 10, 2014 00:17
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Fezz posted:
That was a bit of an Aes Sedai Long story short, it seems that the issue is that someone paraphrased it as "You can't bond an honorblade, though it can be given to you," and assumed it meant that honorblades were always unbondable, while it's more along the lines of 'heralds have first dibs, and you can't just physically steal and bond it'. Q: You mentioned that human can’t bond Honorblades, but Nalan tells Szeth that his bond with his Honorblade has been broken. Can you clear this up? A: Humans CAN bond Honorblades. There's a crucial difference between Honorblades and Shardblades. When you drop an Honorblade, it does not disappear, even if it has been bonded. A Shardblade will disappear when dropped.
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Apr 10, 2014 01:13
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Xachariah posted:No. The transformation surge means "travelling" to cognitive mirror realm of Shadesmar in your mind to convince the spren/spirit that inhabits an item to change into something else (or sending your spren as an emissary). Right, I understood that - I just got the impression from the way that scene was written that Jasnah may have travelled there using more than just the usual 'transformative' surge. Oh well. Fezz posted:[spoiler] No need to apologize.  You know, on the subject of the oathstone and crazy theories - until it was revealed that Szeth's powers [spoiler]came from the Honorblade, I'd speculated that his Oathstone was essentially an imprisoned spren or something to that effect, as that would have explained both some of his absolute devotion to it / its holders, his powers, and Syl's reaction to him. It's actually a bit disappointing if the Oathstone is just a stone and Szeths adherence to it simply a matter of honor.
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Apr 10, 2014 03:23
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Habibi posted:Right, I understood that - I just got the impression from the way that scene was written that Jasnah may have travelled there using more than just the usual 'transformative' surge. Oh well. I dunno, it's possible she was there physically while Shallan was there mentally but I doubt it. I think there's probably a division between the two realms in that sense. When Shallan turned the boat to water she went to Shadesmar to bargain with the boat and Jasnah wasn't there. So either Elsecalling can send you to a different place in Shadesmar than the real world equivalent and that's what Jasnah did (though if that's the case then how did she save Shallan the first time when she went to the same relative place?), or maybe the Soulcasting Shadesmar is different from being there in the flesh. It's all a bit vague so I suppose everything is pretty speculative.
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Apr 10, 2014 03:36
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Rumda posted:To demonstrate that Heralds have access to all the surges not just those of their associated Radiants. Regrowth as well and the skybreaker gravity and (?)division(?) It needed to be more than simple Stormlight could heal I might be misremembering but didn't Nalan use a fabrial to heal Szeth
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Apr 10, 2014 04:03
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Xachariah posted:I dunno, it's possible she was there physically while Shallan was there mentally but I doubt it. I think there's probably a division between the two realms in that sense. When Shallan turned the boat to water she went to Shadesmar to bargain with the boat and Jasnah wasn't there. Yeah, I suppose it would have been more accurate if I had said "I got the impression that she MAY have..." p
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Apr 10, 2014 04:18
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Grouchy Fish posted:I might be misremembering but didn't Nalan use a fabrial to heal Szeth That's what I remember, too.
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Apr 10, 2014 06:45
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Where did people come up with the idea that teleporting has anything to do with Shadesmar? I don't believe we've gotten anything that shows that.
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Apr 10, 2014 14:35
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EVGA Longoria posted:Where did people come up with the idea that teleporting has anything to do with Shadesmar? I don't believe we've gotten anything that shows that. Because in the last chapter wit says quote:"you've been making quite a disturbance on the other side," Wit said, "It's been a long time since the spren had to deal with someone alive, particularly someone so demanding as yourself." I'd guess that you can only teleport to Shadesmar if you're a soulcaster as well
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Apr 10, 2014 14:59
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Also, given that spren can travel back and forth between shadesmar and the real world, it would be silly if you couldn't use shadesmar as a shortcut.
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Apr 10, 2014 16:22
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I think moving back and forth between Shadesmar (which can be viewed as teleporting) isn't the same thing as Jasnah's Elsecalling ability (which we haven't actually seen in use yet). At the end of WoR when Jasnah suddenly appears in front of Hoid, that could be her coming back from Shadesmar (just like Shallan can and has done) or using her Elsecaller abilities. I don't think we know which one it was. I interpreted Hoid's comment as talking about her wandering around Shadesmar, which could be a use of either surge. syphon fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Apr 10, 2014 |
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Apr 10, 2014 19:57
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Xachariah posted:I dunno, it's possible she was there physically while Shallan was there mentally but I doubt it. I think there's probably a division between the two realms in that sense. When Shallan turned the boat to water she went to Shadesmar to bargain with the boat and Jasnah wasn't there. that's easily explained: Jasnah hadn't called over yet and was still on the boat, she probably wasn't expecting Shallan to turn the boat to water, but used it as a decent excuse to fake her death. Seems to me (guessing) this is how the Lightweaver/Elsecaller/Willshaper powers work out in regards to Shadesmar Lightweavers: can soulcast and visit Shadesmar mentally to communicate with the Spren/alter their physical nature. This is done at the "speed of thought" and therefore seems to be instantaneous to outside observers. I'm curious if Soulcasters (the ardents) experience this. This seems pretty clear After the ship 'sinks' and Shallan tries to light the stick on fire. She hangs between the two worlds for a bit to prevent 'drowning' (mentally I suppose) Elsecallers: can soulcast in the same manner as Lightweavers. Their Travel ability allows them to travel to shadesmar in the flesh. Perhaps, the combination allows them to change the 'physical' nature of things in Shadesmar. "Masters" of Shadesmar due to the double affinity of having two surges related to the cognitive realm Willshapers: Cohesion/Travel - guessing they can travel in the flesh to Shadesmar, and can use cohesion to actually *create* things (rather than simply changing their nature)?
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Apr 10, 2014 20:28
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treeboy posted:that's easily explained: Jasnah hadn't called over yet and was still on the boat, she probably wasn't expecting Shallan to turn the boat to water, but used it as a decent excuse to fake her death. The soulcasting Ardents get physically transformed by using soulcasters, and their eyes become gemstones. Also, I think that at least some part of the Ardents, probably the super secretive soulcasters, know of Shadesmar
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Apr 10, 2014 20:35
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Lobsterpillar posted:The soulcasting Ardents get physically transformed by using soulcasters, and their eyes become gemstones. Also, I think that at least some part of the Ardents, probably the super secretive soulcasters, know of Shadesmar right i'd just love to see one of their POV's. I'm curious if the soulcaster fabrials were only ever actually inteded for use by Radiants and that's why the Ardents get super creepy
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Apr 10, 2014 20:57
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Lobsterpillar posted:The soulcasting Ardents get physically transformed by using soulcasters, and their eyes become gemstones. Also, I think that at least some part of the Ardents, probably the super secretive soulcasters, know of Shadesmar I don't remember that at all. What's the source for this?
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Apr 11, 2014 00:06
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syphon posted:I think moving back and forth between Shadesmar (which can be viewed as teleporting) isn't the same thing as Jasnah's Elsecalling ability (which we haven't actually seen in use yet). No, Hoid specifically asked something to the effect of "Why did you Elsecall to such a remote place?" Then dropped his comment about her being alive in the spren cognitive realm. Elsecalling appears to be physically going to Shadesmar while Soulcasting is mentally going to Shadesmar to negotiate. If Shallan could physically go to Shadesmar that would make her a world hopper but her surge is only Transformation. There's a clue there in the name, casting your soul out.
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Apr 11, 2014 00:25
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Ithaqua posted:I don't remember that at all. What's the source for this? When Adolin goes and watches the soulcasters when they are setting up a windbreak. The soulcasters have gems for eyes and (I think) red skin. That is partly why they always do it in secrecy, but Adolin is a prince so they can't stop him from watching.
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Apr 11, 2014 00:50
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