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Bovril Delight posted:I agree. The van is also in the intersection first, so they're in control of it regardless of the light. Oh ok so if I turn left in front of someone and they hit me, it's their fault because I was in the intersection first.
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Apr 12, 2014 08:18
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What are the rules for emergency vehicles in the relevant US state? Because around here, an emergency vehicle will be 100% at fault if they're involved in an accident while they're crossing an intersection in a manner that is not normally legal, or in any other situation where they're operating outside of normal traffic laws. They are disturbing the normal flow of traffic and are responsible for ensuring that they do so as safely as possible.
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Apr 12, 2014 09:26
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That van isn't an emergency vehicle in any way. It's just a transport vehicle, and really shouldn't be operating with lights while driving. Blue/white lights aren't generally recognized as an emergency vehicle light combo in the US. The US Border Patrol does have plenty of emergency vehicles; they're outfitted with the normal blue/red lights that you'd see on a police car anywhere else in the US, and also equipped with sirens. But those are typically Suburbans, Tahoes, etc. Typically, you need to be running both lights and sirens before you can start disregarding traffic laws. Late hours or inclement weather may give an exception to the use of sirens, depending on what kind of vehicle is responding. I often see fire trucks run with only lights late at night, same with ambulances. Clear sunny day means lights and sirens if you're going to make illegal turns or run lights/stops - and emergency vehicles are still required to make sure the intersection is clear (even when running lights/sirens) before proceeding through it. jamal posted:Oh ok so if I turn left in front of someone and they hit me, it's their fault because I was in the intersection first. Makes total sense. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go play real-life Frogger.  edit: this reddit conversation seems relevant randomidiot fucked around with this message at 09:50 on Apr 12, 2014 |
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Apr 12, 2014 09:46
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some texas redneck posted:emergency vehicles are still required to make sure the intersection is clear (even when running lights/sirens) before proceeding through it. Exactly. The border patrol agent failed to do this.
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Apr 12, 2014 10:37
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Chinatown posted:Exactly. The border patrol agent failed to do this. Assuming it was an emergency vehicle to begin with. And it wasn't. I can't say one way or the other if that lightbar also had a siren, but I can say they weren't using the siren. some texas redneck posted:That van isn't an emergency vehicle in any way. It's just a transport vehicle Specifically, that's a transport vehicle for detainees. To be more specific, it's likely an E-250 or E-350 passenger van that's been modified for jail transport (you really don't see an E-150 used for passengers). Had it been an emergency vehicle (for the Border Patrol), it would have been outfitted with a siren, and whatever lights would be appropriate for a police car in that area (generally red/blue in most, but not all, of the US). randomidiot fucked around with this message at 11:17 on Apr 12, 2014 |
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Apr 12, 2014 11:15
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N is for Nipples posted:I guess there's just slightly too much police dickwaving and way too much driver absentmindedness. In my experience of formerly working for a federal gov't/military contractor and currently working for the state government of a border state, never ever underestimate the volume and quality of dickwaving from any governmental agency. Dickwaving is their true profession, everything else is secondary. The guy did share some fault there, but not in the legal sense imo.
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Apr 12, 2014 16:01
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Krakkles posted:... because he maintained his speed past stopped/stopping traffic. That's like teenager level amateur mistake.
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Apr 12, 2014 16:15
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some texas redneck posted:That van isn't an emergency vehicle in any way. It's just a transport vehicle, and really shouldn't be operating with lights while driving. Blue/white lights aren't generally recognized as an emergency vehicle light combo in the US. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_vehicle_lighting Furthermore, in every state, lights only is sufficient to dictate that other road users yield right of way. Whether or not they had the siren on (doesn't seem so from the video), or if they had sufficient precedent to be rolling with lights (none of us have any idea), or they should have exercised more caution (absolutely), the driver who posted the video did something both stupid and illegal. Rev. Dr. Moses P. Lester posted:Something that happens in like half of all the motorcycle crash youtubes. Not the bike's fault in most cases but a reasonably intelligent person would have slowed the gently caress down if they saw 3 cars in a row stopped at a green light. Krakkles fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Apr 12, 2014 |
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Apr 12, 2014 17:09
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Krakkles posted:This isn't true. Blue lights are used by federal vehicles and are the only light color specific only to law enforcement vehicles in the US. Wow, victim blame much? The border patrol lied on the police report, the van was obstructed by traffic, the van was making a illegal u-turn, and the border patrol agent came up screaming at the Lexus driver. Now why would he do that if he knew he had the right away? Oh wait, he didn't and you are victim blaming..
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Apr 12, 2014 17:40
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If we're going to get real pedantic it looks like his only indication of the van coming across was the lane immediately to his left slowing down. The lane 2 to his left is a turn lane, correct? So you'd expect people to slow there. You can armchair QB as much as you like and while the driver made a mistake, I'm sure it's one that anyone posting here could make on any day.
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Apr 12, 2014 17:43
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ratbert90 posted:Wow, victim blame much? The border patrol lied on the police report, the van was obstructed by traffic, the van was making a illegal u-turn, and the border patrol agent came up screaming at the Lexus driver. Victim blaming? Really? I agree most of the fault of the accident goes on the cop, but the Lexus driver was probably more than capable of avoiding the whole thing if he exercised a little caution.
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Apr 12, 2014 17:44
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nsaP posted:If we're going to get real pedantic it looks like his only indication of the van coming across was the lane immediately to his left slowing down. The lane 2 to his left is a turn lane, correct? So you'd expect people to slow there. You can armchair QB as much as you like and while the driver made a mistake, I'm sure it's one that anyone posting here could make on any day. My universal, immediate response to 2/3 lanes slowing for no apparent reason is to slow down, and it would have prevented this accident. And truthfully, has on many occasions.
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Apr 12, 2014 17:47
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 (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 12, 2014 17:52
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Krakkles posted:the driver who posted the video did something both stupid and illegal. ...that being?
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Apr 12, 2014 18:10
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I too, would have driven perfectly if I was in this imaginary scenario. I bet the lexus driver was low on windshield washer fluid, too. Only idiots let that happen.
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Apr 12, 2014 18:14
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puberty worked me over fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Jun 24, 2019 |
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Apr 12, 2014 18:17
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Tha Chodesweller posted:Victim blaming? Really? I agree most of the fault of the accident goes on the cop, but the Lexus driver was probably more than capable of avoiding the whole thing if he exercised a little caution. and if that girl wasn't wearing such a short skirt she wouldn't have gotten raped
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Apr 12, 2014 18:23
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Cage posted:I too, would have driven perfectly if I was in this imaginary scenario. I bet the lexus driver was low on windshield washer fluid, too. Only idiots let that happen. gently caress, I better go fill up the Mini (light has been on for weeks...).
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Apr 12, 2014 18:30
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SyHopeful posted:...that being? (Sorry for the LMGTFY, I couldn't get my phone to pull a direct google url.)
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Apr 12, 2014 18:52
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puberty worked me over fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Jun 24, 2019 |
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Apr 12, 2014 18:58
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Extra posted:You do know Article 26 Section 1144 indicates there must be an audible siren, exhaust whistle, bell, air-horn or electronic equivalent present in addition to lights right? Oh and it also says there must be at least one red light visible under normal atmospheric conditions.
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Apr 12, 2014 19:03
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Krakkles posted:Failure to yield to an emergency vehicle quote:§ 1144. Operation of vehicles on approach of authorized emergency vehicles. (a) Upon the immediate approach of an authorized emergency vehicle equipped with at least one lighted lamp exhibiting red light visible under normal atmospheric conditions from a distance of five hundred feet to the front of such vehicle other than a police vehicle or bicycle when operated as an authorized emergency vehicle, and when audible signals are sounded from any said vehicle by siren, exhaust whistle, bell, air-horn or electronic equivalent; the driver of every other vehicle shall yield the right of way and shall immediately drive to a position parallel to, and as close as possible to the right-hand edge or curb of the roadway, or to either edge of a one-way roadway three or more lanes in width, clear of any intersection, and shall stop and remain in such position until the authorized emergency vehicle has passed, unless otherwise directed by a police officer. Arguable that "reasonable care" means visually ensuring traffic in all oncoming lanes have stopped before crossing them? If we're going to give the Lexus driver poo poo for not reacting to traffic stopping in the other lanes, then we should also hold the van driver accountable for entering a lane where they cannot confirm that they have been seen by oncoming traffic.
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Apr 12, 2014 19:25
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 Alright, you've done it. I'm a big blinky-lights nerd. First, there are plenty of areas in the States where police primarily use blue lights. This is most common in the South, as well as New England and Massachusetts. The video in question is from New York, which is one of several states where all-blue lights are used by volunteer firefighters, but this is clearly not a firefighter's POV. Local and state emergency vehicles in New York use red lights to the front and amber/red or blue/red to the rear. Federal emergency vehicles and law enforcement vehicles in New York are exempt from those rules so they generally use red/blue. But the general tendency is to use red on the left and blue on the right, and the video isn't good enough quality to tell what's going on on the left, and frankly it doesn't matter since anywhere in the States any warning light that's not amber, green or white is supposed to communicate a request for right-of-way. Second, a vehicle with warning lights requesting right of way often uses the lights to do dangerous things in traffic like driving too fast and running red lights. This is perfectly acceptable, as long as the driver is doing those things knowing that it is his own responsibility to drive like that with due regard to the safety of others. What this involves is referred to among emergency responders as clearing intersections - slow down as much as you need to, to include stopping and waiting, to be absolutely certain that there is no oncoming traffic that either doesn't want to stop, or hasn't noticed you. Here's an example of a cop doing it right - he may have even had a green light but he still slows down, prepared to stop, and makes sure everyone sees him before he continues. Same thing here. The border patrol agent didn't do this, and continued into the intersection before he could see the guy that hit him. It doesn't help his case that he wasn't using a siren, which is usually (but not always) required to legally break traffic rules. And lastly, watching the video closely, the video quality is pretty bad but I can still see the BP van in question at about 3 seconds in. My eyes aren't the best but I would have seen the van earlier than that, so the driver clearly had plenty of time to slow down and let him by but continued at full speed. The end result, in my opinion, is that there was wrongdoing on the part of both vehicles in the accident, but the driver of a responding emergency vehicle is better trained (at least he's probably seen a powerpoint on safely driving an emergency vehicle) and will likely be held to a higher standard. The BP agent is probably hosed in this case, but the driver that hit him might get dinged as well, just not as bad. Friar Zucchini fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Apr 12, 2014 |
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Apr 12, 2014 20:26
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Tha Chodesweller posted:Victim blaming? Really? I agree most of the fault of the accident goes on the cop, but the Lexus driver was probably more than capable of avoiding the whole thing if he exercised a little caution. I agree most of the fault of the rape goes to the rapist, but the girl could have not been ${EXCUSE} that night. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 12, 2014 20:53
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Krakkles posted:Furthermore, in every state, lights only is sufficient to dictate that other road users yield right of way. That's not true either. In Pennsylvania (at least) you must have visual and audible alerting devices to claim emergency vehicle right of way.
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Apr 12, 2014 20:55
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ratbert90 posted:I agree most of the fault of the rape goes to the rapist, but the girl could have not been ${EXCUSE} that night. You're equating a traffic accident with rape. There's a difference between someone (and in this case, not the Lexus driver) making a mistake while behind the wheel and someone willingly harming someone else. Take this bullshit somewhere else, please.
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Apr 12, 2014 22:12
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Motronic posted:That's not true either. It's funny, as I'm typing this, I'm all "Man, that sounds sarcastic." ... But I'm perfectly serious. I see that a lot.
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Apr 12, 2014 22:14
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Krakkles posted:I think the point that several of us are trying to make is that the more experienced drivers amongst us have learned sufficient lessons to NOT make that mistake.
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Apr 12, 2014 22:57
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InitialDave posted:Indeed I have. I learned them by almost hitting people, same as everyone else. Some of us have learned lessons such as "don't swerve into another lane during a highway rush hour commute" the hard way. It's part of learning, just like everything else.
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Apr 12, 2014 23:09
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InitialDave posted:Indeed I have. I learned them by almost hitting people, same as everyone else.
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Apr 13, 2014 00:48
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I hate how 90% of things on the road are giant suv or minivans with blacked out windows, they may as well be cargo vans.
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Apr 13, 2014 01:04
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Krakkles posted:That's really the problem I have with it ... Him coming online and saying "it was their fault" is him not learning the lesson. Does your insurance company recommend admitting fault in an open accident investigation?
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Apr 13, 2014 01:34
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Tha Chodesweller posted:You're equating a traffic accident with rape. There's a difference between someone (and in this case, not the Lexus driver) making a mistake while behind the wheel and someone willingly harming someone else. Take this bullshit somewhere else, please. If you couldn't see the parallels between the two analagies I can't help you. The border patrol wasn't following the law, and lied about it on a police report. The original person I was responding too was using the same verbage that people use to put partial blame on rape victims; but yes, I was totally saying rape and traffic accidents are the same thing. 
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Apr 13, 2014 03:16
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SHUT UP ABOUT THE LEGALITIES OF THE LEXUS/BORDER PATROL CRASH loving hell you lot can be more pedantic than the F1 Goons
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Apr 13, 2014 03:55
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nsaP posted:Does your insurance company recommend admitting fault in an open accident investigation? To be fair he probably shouldn't be spreading it all over the internet until well after its been settled in court.
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Apr 13, 2014 04:04
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This does bring to mind a weakness on my part. When I see people stopped at a green I tend to assume they're a stupid moron who is too busy reading their phone to pay attention in traffic. And in most cases I'm right. Once in a while they're stopped for a reason like an rear end in a top hat pedestrian jaywalking or an animal in the road, but so often it's just driver inattention that I've gotten out of the habit of slowing down and going on alert. I likely would have done the same thing as that driver, and that scares me. So many people these days just take their cue from other drivers that they either sit at greens until someone honks, or they drive into a car in front of them because the lane next to them started moving, but it was a turn lane. I've witnessed the latter twice in the last few years. LloydDobler fucked around with this message at 05:53 on Apr 13, 2014 |
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Apr 13, 2014 05:51
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Moral of the (all) stories is trust no one in traffic. I would have been hit by a car while crossing the road at the crosswalk the other day, if it wasn't for me trusting no one. it was a 2 lane road with a crosswalk and (as you are required by law) the van stopped to let me cross. However the dude in the next lane was too stupid to realize that the van had stopped at a crosswalk to let a pedestrian by, and raced through. Luckily I inched my way forward, expecting just that to happen. I see all these pedestrians crossing the road without even looking and it's loving scary. If I wasn't the kind of person that always looks and keep alert of my surroundings, I might have been seriously injured / dead. Wouldn't have been my fault, but what comfort is that?
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Apr 13, 2014 09:35
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I got smoked in a crosswalk in high school by a granny in a Reliant who had enough time to find her horn but not enough time to stop from a full block away at 50kph. A cop witnessed the whole thing and promptly wrote me a ticket.
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Apr 13, 2014 17:21
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Everybody I drive with says that I, for whatever reason, am a magnet for horrible drivers. I'm buying a dash-cam with my first paycheck in a few weeks (thanks to this thread), so I'll keep you all updated on the daily stupidity I see. I'm starting a job with a Parks/Recreation department, so it means a lot of driving around a city. Fun times. My only actual crash was about three years ago. I was driving in Eugene, Oregon, heading west in a 25mph zone. I needed to turn into a parking lot on my left, so I signaled, slowed, checked over my shoulder, and started my turn. Halfway into it, I see a blur out of the corner of my eye, and then the airbag deploys into my face. Another driver was in the eastbound lane (it was a 2-lane road with a double yellow, then about a 5 foot buffer, and another double-yellow) doing about 45ish, texting, and slammed into me. Now, she claimed it was my fault because reasons, but the insurance company, the police department, and the witnesses I had said otherwise (the entire UO soccer team saw the crash). Anyway, I ended up being found 100 percent not-at-fault, which was awesome, but unfortunately my back is permanently hosed up. I was the only one injured in the crash, although I had 3 people in my car, so I dodged a bullet there. I ended up not being able to take a job as a wildland firefighter that summer because my back is screwed, but by the end of the year we thought my back was more or less healed, so we settled for the cost of a new car (the one I was in was totaled), her insurance covering my medical bills, and 4k for other reasons. I should have asked for way the hell more now that I think about it, especially because she was a horrifyingly rude bitch after the crash and had been in 3 crashes that year already (it was April). Two incidents last night in Salem, Oregon: 1st one, I was at a red light, and on the other side of the intersection the road went from two lanes to one. Anyway, this giant douchebag truck (Confederate flag and all, of course) is alongside me, clearly wanting to race, so I pay him no attention and try to ignore the revving of his engine. The light for the left-turn lane turns green and he apparently sees that as a green light for him (his was red, like mine) and guns it through the intersection, nearly crushing some old people in a Civic. 2nd one, I'm driving along and there's a van in front of me without any lights on at all. It's dark, and on top of being stupidly dangerous, I don't want them to get a ticket (maybe it was a mistake, right?), so I flash my headlights twice (on-off, on-off, on). The other driver doesn't react at all and continues along down the road at about 20 miles per hour in a 35 zone. I pass them in the left lane doing the speed limit, no reaction from them, and suddenly 5 blocks later they come racing up behind me, cut alongside me, honk and give me the finger, then cut me off right before a red light so I had to slam on the brakes/hop up on the curb to avoid hitting them. They then proceeded to brake-check me a few times, but it didn't work because...I wasn't moving. Like, the light turned green, they inched forward, glaring at me in the rearview, and slammed on the brakes. Three times. That's not how brake-checking works! Just gently caress. e: I think my most hated driving habit is when people match my speed to stay in my blind spot. I'll speed up/slow down to clear them from it and they match me again. WHY DO YOU WANT TO STAY IN M BLIND SPOT WHAT THE gently caress. Dusty Baker 2 fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Apr 13, 2014 |
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Apr 13, 2014 18:32
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Tha Chodesweller posted:Victim blaming? Really? I agree most of the fault of the accident goes on the cop, but the Lexus driver was probably more than capable of avoiding the whole thing if he exercised a little caution. 100% of the fault is on the cop. Just because the driver in the video could have avoided it doesn't mean he was in any way at fault. I've saved myself from a t-bone by stopping when I saw the guy next to me hit the brakes, but that accident would still have been 100% the fault of the person running the red light even if I hadn't.
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