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Zore
Sep 21, 2010
willfully illiterate, aggressively miserable sourpuss whose sole raison d’etre is to put other people down for liking the wrong things
Also, remember you can mod settings if you want the start to go quicker.

I recommend choosing starting units: battle instead of standard in the advanced options when you set up a new game. That'll give you a full stack of your race's stuff, including at least 2 tier 3s, and another full stack mix of stuff from your class (though only units you can produce so Archmages are stuck with a stack of Apprentices) and sometimes your race.

That'll let you explore and kill most independents relatively easily as long as you assign a hero to each stack and let you play around with some of the more advanced units. Just don't tackle Mythical stuff, or Legendary until you get a hang of the combat.

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Business Gorillas
Mar 11, 2009

:harambe:



I just did my first double phoenix ziggurat and holy hell do those things hurt. My poor sorc lord starts off with half health and two fuckoff phoenixes breathing down his neck.

:rip: Dingus Mothgobbler, Master Goblin Whizzard

edit: Goblin Sorceror with Destruction/Destruction/Fire owns. Making the map blight-covered for your units to chill, Destruction buffs to all of your magic, and Fireballs/Hellhounds/Skin of Oil. Considering the amount of Poison and Undead stuff in the game, some sort of Necromancy class would be amazing. I'd really like a Skin of Oil buff for Poison that doesn't involve wasting spaces on Plague Doctors.

Business Gorillas fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Apr 13, 2014

Taear
Nov 26, 2004

Ask me about the shitty opinions I have about Paradox games!

Business Gorillas posted:

I just did my first double phoenix ziggurat and holy hell do those things hurt. My poor sorc lord starts off with half health and two fuckoff phoenixes breathing down his neck.

They're actually quite squishy, your best bet is to try and get them with stuff that has First Strike! Or fire resistance of course.

I finally got an AI to ally me! It's taken so long. I don't even know why this guy is different. It's still quite jarring to see EVERYONE in the game always be good aligned though. It's even stranger that I am not automatically at war with the people my ally is at war with too!

Taear fucked around with this message at 03:45 on Apr 13, 2014

Zore
Sep 21, 2010
willfully illiterate, aggressively miserable sourpuss whose sole raison d’etre is to put other people down for liking the wrong things

Taear posted:

They're actually quite squishy, your best bet is to try and get them with stuff that has First Strike! Or fire resistance of course.

I finally got an AI to ally me! It's taken so long. I don't even know why this guy is different. It's still quite jarring to see EVERYONE in the game always be good aligned though. It's even stranger that I am not automatically at war with the people my ally is at war with too!

You can actually ally with people your ally is at war with.

Unfortunately, even if you ally with everyone else you still don't win the game if they're fighting each other. I ended up having to break two alliances and kill them off before the victory screen triggered.

redreader
Nov 2, 2009

I am the coolest person ever with my pirate chalice. Seriously.

Dinosaur Gum
It makes a gigantic difference to have some warrior style hero with about 2-3 of all of the hp/melee/defense buffs. My guy is a tank, it makes battle a lot easier.

Taear
Nov 26, 2004

Ask me about the shitty opinions I have about Paradox games!

Zore posted:

You can actually ally with people your ally is at war with.

Unfortunately, even if you ally with everyone else you still don't win the game if they're fighting each other. I ended up having to break two alliances and kill them off before the victory screen triggered.

I decided to join my ally by declaring war on the person he was fighting and now I have a -700 in the relations screen to him for "declaring war on my ally". But I didn't, you idiots were fighting!

Alkydere
Jun 7, 2010
Capitol: A building or complex of buildings in which any legislature meets.
Capital: A city designated as a legislative seat by the government or some other authority, often the city in which the government is located; otherwise the most important city within a country or a subdivision of it.



Picked this up the other night and, while I suck, I must say this game is definitely interesting an fun. It's like Civ V mixed with Total War covered in a massive overdose of high fantasy.

I'm still trying to figure out the races since the homepage has such a good overview of the leader/army classes but none for the races. So far it looks like the Humans are the generalists; the Orcs are big, tough, expensive brutes; the elves are poncy bastards that are murder at long range (those longbows in the early game, holy poo poo); dwarves are dwarves; and the goblins are little dicks that love poison damage.

madmac
Jun 22, 2010

Alkydere posted:

Picked this up the other night and, while I suck, I must say this game is definitely interesting an fun. It's like Civ V mixed with Total War covered in a massive overdose of high fantasy.

I'm still trying to figure out the races since the homepage has such a good overview of the leader/army classes but none for the races. So far it looks like the Humans are the generalists; the Orcs are big, tough, expensive brutes; the elves are poncy bastards that are murder at long range (those longbows in the early game, holy poo poo); dwarves are dwarves; and the goblins are little dicks that love poison damage.

You've got the right idea.

Humans are the baseline race. No stat bonuses or penalties, all their units get the Mariner trait and their cities get a tiny bit of extra production. I think they're one of the weakest races overall but Priests and Knights are both very good units.

Elves all get +1 Ranged Attack, bows are upgraded to longbows, +1 Resistance, Forestry, and 20% Blight Vulnerability. They also have really good units (except infantry) and are in the running for best race in the game. Elves rock.

Dwarves are also really great, but even more specialized. All their units get +1 Defense, +1 Resistance, Cave Crawling, Night Vision, Mountaineering, and 20% Blight Resistance but cost 10% more. They're a very tough race that is designed to dominate the underground layer and hold their own against Goblins. Their Tier 3 unit Firstborn is Holy Balls WTF amazing, possibly the best Tier 3 unit in the game. On the other hand their ranged units and Cav pretty much blow and it can slow them down in the early game. Late game, though...

Goblins are really weird and really fun. All their units get -5 HP, 40% Blight Resistance, Night Vision, Cave Crawling, and Wetlands walking and cost 10% less to recruit. Most of them also get the volunteer trait if they rank up twice, which halves their upkeep! They have some really powerful units, the poison dart unit especially, but their racial reliance on Blight damage can be an issue for them in some matchups, especially Dreadnaughts. They like the underground and swamps and don't mind blighted terrain, which means they pretty much thrive in all the places most other races can't stand.

Orcs are very melee focused, even more then Dwarves. All their units get +1 Melee Damage, +5 HP, and Night Vision but also -1 Resistance and -1 Ranged Attacks. They have some of the hardest hitting infantry and cavalry units in the game (Black Knights carry polearms, which makes them murder against other Cav) but are incredibly vulnerable to elemental damage and bad at ranged attacks. I like the Orcs style a lot but I haven't come up with a good use for them yet.

Draconians are the weird race, almost more so then Goblins. All their units get Faster Healing outside of combat and 20% Fire Resistance, but it's balanced out with a 20% weakness to frost. Most of their units can up their natural fire resistance even more by ranking up. Their basic "archer" unit actually lobs area of effect firebombs, and their Pike unit gets Charge. Their early units are a mixed bag but their Tier 3 Flyers are a really strong reliable unit. Because they don't have racial stats modifiers they work more or less equally well with any Leader Class, much like Humans, but they don't have a strong niche outside of fire damage/resistance.

One thing to keep in mind is that all of the racial bonuses I listed apply to any class unique humanoid type units. So Hunters and Crusaders and Musketeers and Berserkers all have slightly different stats and traits depending on what race they are built as. Summons and Monster type units are not effected.

madmac fucked around with this message at 05:36 on Apr 13, 2014

Wolpertinger
Feb 16, 2011

Alkydere posted:

Picked this up the other night and, while I suck, I must say this game is definitely interesting an fun. It's like Civ V mixed with Total War covered in a massive overdose of high fantasy.

I'm still trying to figure out the races since the homepage has such a good overview of the leader/army classes but none for the races. So far it looks like the Humans are the generalists; the Orcs are big, tough, expensive brutes; the elves are poncy bastards that are murder at long range (those longbows in the early game, holy poo poo); dwarves are dwarves; and the goblins are little dicks that love poison damage.

Honestly, if you have a choice, humans are pretty mediocre and you should skip over them for pretty much any other race. The only human unit that stands out is the human priest, which is pretty much the only reliable sources of long range spirit damage in the game outside of the Theocrat class (and even in the theocrat class, they will still do more ranged spirit damage than anything other than their ultimate unit or a theocrat hero, and theocrats get large boosts to priest units so, yeah). However, spirit damage, alongside blight(poison) damage, tends to have a lot of things that are 100% immune to it, which can be a problem, even if it also has it's fair share of things it just decimates. Other than that, they've got some above-average cavalry but it's nothing worth writing home about. Plus, elf priests do lightning which is probably the best element to have as far as things not resisting it goes, so elves technically win out there too :v:.

Alkydere
Jun 7, 2010
Capitol: A building or complex of buildings in which any legislature meets.
Capital: A city designated as a legislative seat by the government or some other authority, often the city in which the government is located; otherwise the most important city within a country or a subdivision of it.



Ah, that's an interesting rundown.

Also, some of these flavor texts for the units are great. The Orc Spearman one made me laugh pretty hard:

"The Orc Spearman said he could not return to his clan a man until he had proved himself a mighty hunter. He clung a javelin and a simple spear, yet he looked fiercely determined to kill. In our hamlet, there's not much danger. So I lead to the most dangerous animal I knew: My mother-in-law. I admit it was a cruel thing to do. My mother-in-law was a widow of three husbands already. The orc was made a man that night and compelled to marry her. Poor simple brute. Never stood a chance. Still, of the eight husbands she had, he was my favorite and lived the longest."

Zore
Sep 21, 2010
willfully illiterate, aggressively miserable sourpuss whose sole raison d’etre is to put other people down for liking the wrong things

madmac posted:

You've got the right idea.

Humans are the baseline race. No stat bonuses or penalties, all their units get the Mariner trait and their cities get a tiny bit of extra production. I think they're one of the weakest races overall but Priests and Knights are both very good units.

Elves all get +1 Ranged Attack, bows are upgraded to longbows, +1 Resistance, Forestry, and 20% Blight Vulnerability. They also have really good units (except infantry) and are in the running for best race in the game. Elves rock.

Dwarves are also really great, but even more specialized. All their units get +1 Defense, +1 Resistance, Cave Crawling, Night Vision, Mountaineering, and 20% Blight Resistance but cost 10% more. They're a very tough race that is designed to dominate the underground layer and hold their own against Goblins. Their Tier 3 unit Firstborn is Holy Balls WTF amazing, possibly the best Tier 3 unit in the game. On the other hand their ranged units and Cav pretty much blow and it can slow them down in the early game. Late game, though...

Goblins are really weird and really fun. All their units get -5 HP, 40% Blight Resistance, Night Vision, Cave Crawling, and Wetlands walking and cost 10% less to recruit. Most of them also get the volunteer trait if they rank up twice, which halves their upkeep! They have some really powerful units, the poison dart unit especially, but their racial reliance on Blight damage can be an issue for them in some matchups, especially Dreadnaughts. They like the underground and swamps and don't mind blighted terrain, which means they pretty much thrive in all the places most other races can't stand.

Orcs are very melee focused, even more then Dwarves. All their units get +1 Melee Damage, +5 HP, and Night Vision but also -1 Resistance and -1 Ranged Attacks. They have some of the hardest hitting infantry and cavalry units in the game (Black Knights carry polearms, which makes them murder against other Cav) but are incredibly vulnerable to elemental damage and bad at ranged attacks. I like the Orcs style a lot but I haven't come up with a good use for them yet.

Draconians are the weird race, almost more so then Goblins. All their units get Faster Healing outside of combat and 20% Fire Resistance, but it's balanced out with a 20% resistance to cold. Most of their units can up their natural fire resistance even more by ranking up. Their basic "archer" unit actually lobs area of effect firebombs, and their Pike unit gets Charge. Their early units are a mixed bag but their Tier 3 Flyers are a really strong reliable unit. Because they don't have racial stats modifiers they work more or less equally well with any Leader Class, much like Humans, but they don't have a strong niche outside of fire damage/resistance.

One thing to keep in mind is that all of the racial bonuses I listed apply to any class unique humanoid type units. So Hunters and Crusaders and Musketeers and Berserkers all have slightly different stats and traits depending on what race they are built as. Summons and Monster type units are not effected.

Incidently, this leads to a lot of interesting synergies.

Elves arguably synergize well with everything. For instance, Warlord Elves patches up their infantry weakness with amazing meatshields like the Warbreed and Phalanx. And they upgrade the Mounted Archers to Longbows which makes them amazing. On top of that, Warlords get a spell that instantly makes everything max rank. Elvish Irregulars (which the Warlord also has a spell to pump out by the poo poo-ton) turn into their support unit at max rank. Their Support unit is arguably the best support in the game.

Orcs, interestingly, syngergize really well with Rogues. Their units are beefier, and Rogue units are almost all melee anyways and appreciate the boost to attack power. They also manage to get halfway decent range units in the Scoundrel and Bard early on as crossbows aren't affected by the Orc ranged penalty as far as I can tell. Oh and since Rogue units can steal units without mind control immunity with Bards and Succubi that show up really early on in NPC camps (Mother spiders, Ogres, Trolls, Yetis, Bleak Wargs, Unicorns, Giants, Node Serpents, etc and even poo poo like Warbreeds) you can dedicate your cities to pumping out your amazing tier 2 units pretty early on and coasting on stolen tier 3s which lets you build up a sizable attack force without spending gold.

Xae
Jan 19, 2005

Wait, there is a Cave Layer?

I've played 5+ games and I haven't seen an Entrance.

Zore
Sep 21, 2010
willfully illiterate, aggressively miserable sourpuss whose sole raison d’etre is to put other people down for liking the wrong things

Xae posted:

Wait, there is a Cave Layer?

I've played 5+ games and I haven't seen an Entrance.

Its an option that defaults to off in the setup for the create your own maps. You need to go into advance settings to toggle it on.

If you're playing the campaigns or scenarios it should be there though.

Alkydere
Jun 7, 2010
Capitol: A building or complex of buildings in which any legislature meets.
Capital: A city designated as a legislative seat by the government or some other authority, often the city in which the government is located; otherwise the most important city within a country or a subdivision of it.



Xae posted:

Wait, there is a Cave Layer?

I've played 5+ games and I haven't seen an Entrance.

As someone said, it's an option that defaults to off, even though it really, really shouldn't. Basically, imagine more tight corridors, fungal plants, and lava but otherwise it's just about the same.

It's great if you're earth aspect because there's a spell you can cast on your cities that makes them poo poo themselves in glee for being underground.

Wolpertinger
Feb 16, 2011
Draconians have a not-completely-obvious 'secret' synergy too. In almost all cases, it's impossible to add bonus damage to ranged attacks, except with the +ranged damage upgrade when you level up a hero, or when you get a rank up medal for a ranged unit. However, if you use the draconian priest ability 'dragon ancestry' they will not only get a large boost to fire resist, but will get bonus fire damage to everything - not just melee. This means that if you have say, a draconian hunter, his arrows would do their normal physical damage as well as a dollop of fire damage on top - this can be extremely useful when fighting things with high defense and low resistance (resistance is for non-physical damage).

It also works on draconian heroes, which tends to snowball into ridiculousness, as the +ranged damage on a hero adds +1 to all damage types they do with their ranged attack. This means that if they do, say, 5 physical and 5 fire, it will be +1 physical AND +1 fire per ranged damage rank - effectively doubling the bonus you get from your ranged damage levelups. This means that draconian heroes, as well as priests, archers, musketeers, you name it - all can get an unusually nice buff from their priest unit. If you are a theocrat, the spell 'mighty meek' that gives you a damage bonus to units that are a higher tier than you functions in the same way - it's +1 damage to each damage type done by both ranged and melee attacks. This means that adding fire to a non-fire attack will double the huge damage bonus you get from that spell.

The closest equivalent, 'guarded by fire' that dwarf forgepriests have, which like dragon ancestry gives fire protection and bonus fire damage. However, it only gives that fire damage to to melee strikes. Also, unlike dragon ancestry, it also heals the target, and also unlike dragon ancestry, it works on any race - dragon ancestry only works on draconians.

Xae
Jan 19, 2005

Wolpertinger posted:

It also works on draconian heroes, which tends to snowball into ridiculousness, as the +ranged damage on a hero adds +1 to all damage types they do with their ranged attack. This means that if they do, say, 5 physical and 5 fire, it will be +1 physical AND +1 fire per ranged damage rank - effectively doubling the bonus you get from your ranged damage levelups. This means that draconian heroes, as well as priests, archers, musketeers, you name it - all can get an unusually nice buff from their priest unit. If you are a theocrat, the spell 'mighty meek' that gives you a damage bonus to units that are a higher tier than you functions in the same way - it's +1 damage to each damage type done by both ranged and melee attacks. This means that adding fire to a non-fire attack will double the huge damage bonus you get from that spell.

This is also why Fey units can be very ridiculous at times. They deal 3 types of damage and can attack 3 times. "+1 Damage" is 9 more damage a turn.

Corbeau
Sep 13, 2010

Jack of All Trades
Manufacturing a magic quiver for a ranged hero can be, uh, rather disgusting for that reason. I only tried it once, but it applied before all the +ranged stats from hero abilities.

Tomn
Aug 23, 2007

And the angel said unto him
"Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself."
But lo he could not. For the angel was hitting him with his own hands
Does anyone know much about how embarked units do in a fight? It occurs to me that humans and their "mariner" ability might actually come in very handy in water-based maps if it means they can pump out large, cheap, regenerating navies at a fraction of the cost and time it takes to get fleets of true galleons and frigates roaming the seas. Very much a niche use, but potentially a pretty handy one.

Wolpertinger
Feb 16, 2011

Tomn posted:

Does anyone know much about how embarked units do in a fight? It occurs to me that humans and their "mariner" ability might actually come in very handy in water-based maps if it means they can pump out large, cheap, regenerating navies at a fraction of the cost and time it takes to get fleets of true galleons and frigates roaming the seas. Very much a niche use, but potentially a pretty handy one.

Embarked units can do the things they normally do plus the abilities of the ships you can craft in a harbor - so everybody gets fire ballista, or fire cannon, or whatever the ironclad can do (I've never actually used an ironclad, or even really fought a battle with units embarked with it researched). However, their health is set to 40, they get a damage penalty (that mariner partially/totally? negates, not sure), and they may possibly get the defense/resistance of the ship type they embarked on, as well as the fire vulnerability the ship has. I haven't fought enough ship battles to really pay attention to it though, but considering that dreadnoughts are the only one to get a 'tier 3 ' ship, the one thing a human could do better than any other race is completely dominate the seas on a human dreadnought.

The problem is, sea battles are way too rare and are rather difficult to force, so building a character around that might be tricky. If there's too much water they can just sail around you, if there isn't enough then they can just walk around you.

Wolpertinger fucked around with this message at 09:07 on Apr 13, 2014

Triskelli
Sep 27, 2011

I AM A SKELETON
WITH VERY HIGH
STANDARDS


I know that in Human 1 I was able to beat a single frigate with a single embarked Flame Tank, so there's at least the benefit of being able to challenge rival navies without having a harbor city.

Wolpertinger
Feb 16, 2011

Triskelli posted:

I know that in Human 1 I was able to beat a single frigate with a single embarked Flame Tank, so there's at least the benefit of being able to challenge rival navies without having a harbor city.

Flame Tanks and Juggernauts embarked on ironclads would be.. pretty much completely unbeatable. A water mage could painstakingly level up some kraken to gold to get tier 4 adult krakens, but I'm not sure even those could stand up to flame tanks/juggernauts on a nice durable ship.

Autsj
Nov 9, 2011

Taear posted:

I decided to join my ally by declaring war on the person he was fighting and now I have a -700 in the relations screen to him for "declaring war on my ally". But I didn't, you idiots were fighting!

Yeah this seems to be a consistent bug, if you are allied and either you or your ally declares war on anyone your relationship takes a -400 "declared war on their ally" penalty. This seems to happen no matter the diplomatic status of any of the characters involved and will even happen if you ask your ally to join a war or join him in one.

Gerblyn
Apr 4, 2007

"TO BATTLE!"
Fun Shoe

Autsj posted:

Yeah this seems to be a consistent bug, if you are allied and either you or your ally declares war on anyone your relationship takes a -400 "declared war on their ally" penalty. This seems to happen no matter the diplomatic status of any of the characters involved and will even happen if you ask your ally to join a war or join him in one.

To be honest, I'm not sure if it's a bug. The modifier means "one of us is at war with/attacked the ally of the other". People think it's broken, because they assume the messages are always about them, but they actually apply to both sides of the diplomatic relationship equally. It isn't helped by the fact that the AI has a habit of declaring war on another AI, then peacing out a turn later.

Looking at fixing up the diplomacy system is pretty big on our to do list. It's a much harder thing to fix than the other stuff we're working on though, so it's probably not going to be fixed in a patch in a week or two.

Ra Ra Rasputin posted:

Is there a *production overflow* like in the Civ games? say you build a 20 production unit with 30 production, will you have 10 extra for the next project?

Nope. I coded one in, then was told to remove it. I'm not sure what the reasoning is, beyond "Age Of Wonders never did it before". Some people have been asking for it, since they want to be able to spam T1 units in late game cities, but most of the designers are against the idea.

Wolpertinger posted:

Embarked units can do the things they normally do plus the abilities of the ships you can craft in a harbor - so everybody gets fire ballista, or fire cannon, or whatever the ironclad can do (I've never actually used an ironclad, or even really fought a battle with units embarked with it researched). However, their health is set to 40, they get a damage penalty (that mariner partially/totally? negates, not sure), and they may possibly get the defense/resistance of the ship type they embarked on, as well as the fire vulnerability the ship has. I haven't fought enough ship battles to really pay attention to it though, but considering that dreadnoughts are the only one to get a 'tier 3 ' ship, the one thing a human could do better than any other race is completely dominate the seas on a human dreadnought.

We're looking into this, because humans having Mariner is actually really powerful if you do decide to go to war at sea. When a normal unit uses "Fire Cannon" or "Fire Ballista" while riding in a transport, it has a damage penalty (listed as "embarked" in the preview). It's severe enough that the unit is at a huge disadvantage against an actual war ship. Mariner units do not have that penalty at all. This means it's a viable tactic to spam armies of human civic guards or swordsmen, and put them to sea. Gold for Gold they're far more effective than real war ships are.

CommissarMega
Nov 18, 2008

THUNDERDOME LOSER
Problem is, when do people actually fight at sea, outside the campaign? Land is a lot more fun to play in and on, and then that +5 Production seems a little naff. If you ask me, humans should be a late-game kind of race, with increasing bonuses depending on the size of their city and/or the experience of their units.

Wolpertinger
Feb 16, 2011
It's the combination of simultaneous turns and the ability to just sail past them - in my experience the AI will sail instantly away the moment the turn starts to avoid ever being attacked by you if at all possible, unless he has an overwhelming unit advantage in which case you will be attacked in a split second from out of line of sight range of your ship. The only real time ships get to 'blockade' an area is in a river, which can be sort of entertaining but there's not enough situations where you have to sail up/down a river, as a chokepoint that you can't just walk around, unfortunately.

Well, water specialization can freeze water, which could actually have some possibilities there, I just wish there was a way to permanently raise land from the water/flood an area, then you could create 1 hex chokepoints, among other things - it'd help with land defense too due to the 1 turn embark time. It could be balanced by being single tile and slow, like using the avatar 'terraforming' abilities, if you don't want mass flooding (though that could be fun too, heh)

Wolpertinger fucked around with this message at 11:09 on Apr 13, 2014

Autsj
Nov 9, 2011

Gerblyn posted:

To be honest, I'm not sure if it's a bug. The modifier means "one of us is at war with/attacked the ally of the other". People think it's broken, because they assume the messages are always about them, but they actually apply to both sides of the diplomatic relationship equally. It isn't helped by the fact that the AI has a habit of declaring war on another AI, then peacing out a turn later.

Looking at fixing up the diplomacy system is pretty big on our to do list. It's a much harder thing to fix than the other stuff we're working on though, so it's probably not going to be fixed in a patch in a week or two.


Yeah you explained how it worked and I've been paying attention to it with that in mind, it's definitely bugged because the penalty will apply no matter the diplomatic relations with the third party.

You can test this out easily in the Commonwealth mission 2: You start allied with 2 dwarves who are at war with the elf, you are scripted to declare war on the elf in the first turn- both your dwarven allies now have the "declared war on an ally" penalty with you. Move forward and meet the goblin, the dwarves either don't know her or are neutral, declare war on the goblin and both dwarves will get another "declared war on an ally" penalty. If you can manage to bribe the dwarves to join your war against the goblin, they will get this penalty a third time.

This is the same way it behaves on random maps, the only way to actually get a positive modifier for declaring war on someone's enemy is if you are not allied- it's possible to get a positive modifier for declaring war on someone's enemy if you are neutral, at peace or at war with them, but not when you are allied.

I'm totally fine with diplomacy taking more time to fix, since the AI does understand war and peace, the biggest 2 elements for playability are there. But the allied state definitely has a bug concerning war declarations.

EDIT: Seems I made a small mistake, I can't seem to get the dwarves in CW2 to declare war on the goblin (at least not during the early turns), the other penalties do occur though and similar situations on a random map do play out as I described.

Autsj fucked around with this message at 12:02 on Apr 13, 2014

Zulily Zoetrope
Jun 1, 2011

Muldoon
Who cares, it's just humans. I think if they're not gonna have a specific niche, it's better for them to be balanced and a little underwhelming than anything, because players tend to inexplicably gravitate towards the human race in any sort of game. They already have a solid tier 3 and a unique priest.

E: as I understand it, "declared war on their ally" is a malus that applies for peace treaties as well as alliances, which is what's most confusing.

I think you also get it for breaking a peace treaty or for declaring war on anyone someone else is at peace with?

Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 12:33 on Apr 13, 2014

Gerblyn
Apr 4, 2007

"TO BATTLE!"
Fun Shoe

Autsj posted:

Yeah you explained how it worked and I've been paying attention to it with that in mind, it's definitely bugged because the penalty will apply no matter the diplomatic relations with the third party.

You can test this out easily in the Commonwealth mission 2: You start allied with 2 dwarves who are at war with the elf, you are scripted to declare war on the elf in the first turn- both your dwarven allies now have the "declared war on an ally" penalty with you. Move forward and meet the goblin, the dwarves either don't know her or are neutral, declare war on the goblin and both dwarves will get another "declared war on an ally" penalty. If you can manage to bribe the dwarves to join your war against the goblin, they will get this penalty a third time.

This is the same way it behaves on random maps, the only way to actually get a positive modifier for declaring war on someone's enemy is if you are not allied- it's possible to get a positive modifier for declaring war on someone's enemy if you are neutral, at peace or at war with them, but not when you are allied.

I'm totally fine with diplomacy taking more time to fix, since the AI does understand war and peace, the biggest 2 elements for playability are there. But the allied state definitely has a bug concerning war declarations.

EDIT: Seems I made a small mistake, I can't seem to get the dwarves in CW2 to declare war on the goblin (at least not during the early turns), the other penalties do occur though and similar situations on a random map do play out as I described.

OK man, thanks for that. I'll get someone to check it out on Monday and look into it. Diplomacy isn't really my thing, so I just get explanations from other people about how it all works.

Thyrork
Apr 21, 2010

"COME PLAY MECHS M'LANCER."

Or at least use Retrograde Mini's to make cool mechs and fantasy stuff.

:awesomelon:
Slippery Tilde

Kajeesus posted:

Who cares, it's just humans. I think if they're not gonna have a specific niche, it's better for them to be balanced and a little underwhelming than anything, because players tend to inexplicably gravitate towards the human race in any sort of game. They already have a solid tier 3 and a unique priest.

E: as I understand it, "declared war on their ally" is a malus that applies for peace treaties as well as alliances, which is what's most confusing.

I think you also get it for breaking a peace treaty or for declaring war on anyone someone else is at peace with?

I really like the humans for their priests, relatively cheap and that heal is real useful for keeping things alive.

Wolpertinger
Feb 16, 2011

Kajeesus posted:

Who cares, it's just humans. I think if they're not gonna have a specific niche, it's better for them to be balanced and a little underwhelming than anything, because players tend to inexplicably gravitate towards the human race in any sort of game. They already have a solid tier 3 and a unique priest.

E: as I understand it, "declared war on their ally" is a malus that applies for peace treaties as well as alliances, which is what's most confusing.

I think you also get it for breaking a peace treaty or for declaring war on anyone someone else is at peace with?

Having a race be boring just because people like to be humans is kind of eh. Hell, I'd like to play humans more but their units are just so blah. I mean I guess they have a 'solid tier 3' except when compared to all the other racial tier 3s who all have some unique perk that makes them capable of doing something and filling a role no tier 1 or 2 unit has. Draconian fliers are fliers with overwhelm and charge. Beetle riders do blight damage, smash walls and tunnel and are blight immune. Gryphon riders are fliers with first strike. Firstborn are immune to fire, spirit, and near immune to blight, do fire damage, tunnel, can walk on lava, have giant and dragon slaying, and have mind control immunity. Orc shock troopers are one of the only (the only?) units in the game with Tireless (no AP use on retaliation), and inflict bleeding. In the mean time, human knights don't seem to have anything over ordinary cavalry except for a shield, one defense, and 20 hp. (When you put it that way the firstborn stands out a bit, doesn't it? Hah)

As far as their racials go, the +5 production is a non-bonus - you need to be exactly five production or less to get any benefit - any more and it does nothing, and any extra over what you have also does nothing, which leaves them with 1 real racial ability, which is mariner. Which is kind of.. niche. It's like if goblins only had marsh walking as a racial trait and nothing else.

The priests are pretty good, yeah, but a dwarf priest is just as good and possibly better, and can heal too, while an elf priest is better at doing damage and can paralyze. At least they're not goblin/orc priests though, poor guys with their blight bolts. Human priests would be way better if undead were more prevalent, as they have a spirit weakness, but archon units are pretty rare honestly.

Wolpertinger fucked around with this message at 13:20 on Apr 13, 2014

Kalenden
Oct 30, 2012
I'm wondering whether holding off on this game to play the others first is worthwhile.

More specifically, how accessible are they? In terms of interface, use and gameplay mechanics. Also, how are the campaigns? I'm not overly interested in the sandbox mode, so how is the story and campaign in the other games?

Wolpertinger
Feb 16, 2011

Kalenden posted:

I'm wondering whether holding off on this game to play the others first is worthwhile.

More specifically, how accessible are they? In terms of interface, use and gameplay mechanics. Also, how are the campaigns? I'm not overly interested in the sandbox mode, so how is the story and campaign in the other games?

Age of Wonders 1 campaign is pretty much great. Age of wonders 2 is.. skippable. AoW2 Shadow Magic campaign is.. a bit corny, but Shadow Magic has amazingly good core gameplay, and years of polish on it, as well as tons of mods/scenarios you can download. AoW3's campaign is better than Shadow Magic but not as good as AoW1. AoW1s is hard to compete with as it's so long and has so many branching paths all with a unique and pretty interesting story.

Once you actually play them the allure of the random map generator will probably become more apparent - you end up playing very differently in the campaign than you would normally, and the random map generator lets you play with all your units and spells and races and magic spheres and really see all there is to see .

Wolpertinger fucked around with this message at 13:28 on Apr 13, 2014

Corbeau
Sep 13, 2010

Jack of All Trades
The AoW1 campaign is fantastic. It's broken, but in the best of ways that expects you to use all of your tools to cheat right back at it.

Taear
Nov 26, 2004

Ask me about the shitty opinions I have about Paradox games!

Corbeau posted:

The AoW1 campaign is fantastic. It's broken, but in the best of ways that expects you to use all of your tools to cheat right back at it.

The age of wonders 1 campaign is what made me fall in love with the series. All the decisions and such leading up to the final battle and getting to see the leaders you read about in the manual "in person" as it were. Lots of fun.

jBrereton
May 30, 2013
Grimey Drawer

Kalenden posted:

I'm wondering whether holding off on this game to play the others first is worthwhile.
Not really. AoW3 is really enjoyable and easy to get into by comparison to the others. AoW1 is an ugly mess of broken mechanics you're expected to exploit, AoW2/Shadow Magic takes forever and starts you off with a bunch of choices you have to RTFM about first.

Autsj
Nov 9, 2011

Kalenden posted:

I'm wondering whether holding off on this game to play the others first is worthwhile.

More specifically, how accessible are they? In terms of interface, use and gameplay mechanics. Also, how are the campaigns? I'm not overly interested in the sandbox mode, so how is the story and campaign in the other games?

Worthwhile in that the others are pretty cool games, though interface and mechanics wise they're definitely a bit old-fashioned. I doubt you'll enjoy the new one any less not having played the old ones though.

KnoxZone
Jan 27, 2007

If I die before I Wake, I pray the Lord my soul to take.
One thing I find a bit silly in the campaign: Why does every hero start at level 1? This makes enemy heroes a total joke, especially on the last few missions. Nothing like seeing the main leader of the enemy faction as a level 1 scrub getting beat down by a single Berserker.

Arrrthritis
May 31, 2007

I don't care if you're a star, the moon, or the whole damn sky, you need to come back down to earth and remember where you came from

Taear posted:

The age of wonders 1 campaign is what made me fall in love with the series. All the decisions and such leading up to the final battle and getting to see the leaders you read about in the manual "in person" as it were. Lots of fun.

Pretty much this. Although nowadays I definitely prefer the more refined/concise campaigns of 3/Shadow Magic, the fact that 1 decided to include a decision making process was what really sold this series to me.

I'd recommend to jump into 3, and then try out 1/shadow magic if you find out you like it.

LibbyM
Dec 7, 2011

I really enjoyed the locked city sizes in aow1, the importance of battling over larger cities was fun. I also don't like having settlers in this game, though those can be turned off for random map play thankfully.

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MLKQUOTEMACHINE
Oct 22, 2012

Some motherfuckers are always trying to ice-skate uphill

LibbyM posted:

I really enjoyed the locked city sizes in aow1, the importance of battling over larger cities was fun. I also don't like having settlers in this game, though those can be turned off for random map play thankfully.

One of my favorite ways to play the game is on a medium island map with water set up really high (and mountains just a bit beneath it), NPC cities set to many, and forbidding new city founding.

It's like I'm playing on some sort of Earthsea map.

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