McDragon posted:

What, Conservative?

TinTower posted:

Renaissance Robot posted:

Conservatives would more usually be described as cold and shallow.

Jedit posted:

If only this were true about Thatcher's grave.

schadenfraud posted:

Is this why it all went kind of quiet on the "let's crack down on payday loans" front? Because their mates at the big banks decided to engage in this fantastic wheeze as well?

Weldon Pemberton posted:

Second one requires showing that stigmatizing buyers necessarily stigmatizes sellers. Whether it is a failure or otherwise, the obvious intent of the purchase ban's supporters is to stigmatize buyers while not affecting public opinion of sex workers themselves. It is based on a reasoning for stigmatizing johns that is distinct from the traditional "promiscuity and sex outside marriage is dirty and wrong and therefore so is everyone involved" idea. Theoretically, it should be as viable as demonizing one participant in any other type of economic transaction as inherently exploitative, which we do in this thread all the time ("landlords, capitalists, usurers, etc. are bastards"). I'm not sure if the argument is "but the general public can't grasp the difference between this argument and the traditional reasons for stigmatizing sex work", suggesting that such an approach can never be fully extricated from prudery, or if it's something else like "this approach makes johns more violent" (which Belle de Jour seemed to hint at but never explain). Can you clarify? I mean I can certainly accept the merits of an argument that johns shouldn't be stigmatized for other reasons, but the specific reason given is always that it harms sex workers no matter what.

Fluo posted:

So General China is literally the prolier than thou manchild?

namesake posted:

Can't we all just get together and overthrow capitalism already

quote:

The law focuses on increasing the social stigma against buyers, as well as sellers, of sex. Although it is constructed upon the theory that sex workers are passive ‘victims’, in practice, it is intended to increase stigma and discrimination against the sex workers who refuse or are unable to quit selling sex.

quote:

Additionally, the Swedish government and its feminist supporters are using the law to advocate for increased social stigma and support for the patriarchal separation of women into ‘good’ and ‘bad’ categories. The feminist supporters have positioned themselves as ‘good’ women who have the right to define ‘gender equality’ and appropriate sexual
behavior. They have collaborated with the Swedish and other governments to claim a superior moral authority on what constitutes appropriate sexual behavior. More disturbingly, they have asserted the right to impose their views on other women.
Although advocates claim they are promoting gender equality, their underlying message is that there is “good sex” (Kulick 2005, 208) with good women and bad sex with bad women. As Kulick perceptively observes, “[w]hat I believe is ultimately at stake in this transition is a much wider phenomenon, namely the entrenchment of an official sexuality, a national sexuality, to which all Swedes should adhere, not because they will be punished if they do...but because official sexuality is good sexuality, the morally comprehensible way to be” (Kulick 2005, 206).
When feminists (‘good’ women) feel that they have the privilege and the right to exercise power to force sex workers (‘bad’ women) to conform to mainstream cultural norms about sex, they are simply using the same tools historically deployed within patriarchy to dictate social norms controlling women’s lives.

quote:

In order to claim success, the Swedish government must be able to present reliable evidence that the law actually reduced the number of men who purchase sex, the number of women who sell sex and the number of people who are trafficked into forced prostitution. A close examination of government reports and other research reveals that Sweden’s claims of success are not supported by any reliable evidence. Nonetheless, the government’s latest report concludes that the law “has had the intended effect and is an important instrument in preventing and combating prostitution” (Skarhed 2010, 11).
It is important to note at the outset that the mandate for the Skarhed Report ensured that the results would not provide any support for abandoning the prostitution law: “One starting point of our work has been that the purchase of sexual services is to remain criminalized” (Skarhed 2010, 4). Consequently, the final report could not contain any evidence on failures; it could only report successes even when evidence is lacking.

quote:

The report raises the possibility that some men behave differently as a result of the law. It cites a 2008 survey in which, “several of those [men] questioned” said the law caused them to stop or cut back on buying sex (Skarhed 2010, 32). The survey also reported that only 8% of the men said they had bought sex, as compared to 13.6% in 1996 (Skarhed 2010, 32). However, self-reports about one’s own socially- unacceptable behavior is not evidence of actual behavior. In fact, if the law has been successful in stigmatizing the purchase of sex as intended, then it is logical that men would want to avoid the stigma by claiming that they are no longer engaging in ‘bad sex’.
Although fear of arrest and public exposure are certainly strong deterrents, they are not a guarantee of changed behavior. In fact, research, including government research, reveals the ineffectiveness of the law on sex buyers: “most men state that the ban has not changed anything for them” and “for many men the ban is of no concern at all, since they mostly buy sex abroad.” (Dodillet and Östergren 2011, 14-15). Even the government admits that it is “more common to buy sex abroad than in Sweden” (Skarhed 2010, 32).
The report does not contain any information on the nationality or ethnicity of the men who have been arrested. In many countries, the customers of street-based sex workers are poorer and less educated than men who buy indoors or on line. They are also disproportionately immigrants or men of color. Since a large percentage of the street-based sex workers in Sweden are immigrant women (Skarhed 2010, 20), it would make sense that a large percentage of their customers are also immigrants. If this is the case, then the focus on street-based sex work means that the law is primarily an anti-immigrant tool. Research is needed on this question.

quote:

Sweden’s definition of ‘trafficking’ is consistent with the view that all sex workers are always victims. Under Swedish law, ‘trafficking’ includes “exploitation for casual sexual relations or in another way exploited for sexual purposes” (Swedish Penal Code, ch. 4). In other words, ‘trafficking’ means any prostitution involving third parties, such as a club, an assistant, a phone service or a brothel, even when there is no force, fraud or coercion. Thus, when the government claims there were 400 to
600 trafficking victims in 2004 (Skarhed 2010, 29), it means there were 400 to 600 women working in prostitution with third parties. This approach inflates the number of ‘trafficking victims’ because it includes women who are working freely with a third party and who are not forced or coerced to work.
The government does not know whether there has been any change in the number of ‘exploited sex workers’ between 1999 and 2010, when the Skarhed Report was issued (Skarhed 2010, 29). It admits that it does not “have completely reliable knowledge about the occurrence of human trafficking for sexual purposes in Sweden” (Skarhed 2010, 35).
Instead, it relies on statements by the Swedish Police to claim that “the ban on the purchase of sexual services acts as a barrier to human traffickers (Skarhed 2010, 9).

quote:

Although there is no reliable study on the issue, sex workers “express fear of increased violence, as well as an actual increase” (Dodillet and Östergren 2011, 23; see also Scoular 2010, 20; Hubbard 2008, 147; Norwegian Ministry 2004, 12-14; Östergren 2004, 2, 5).
The Skarhed Report notes that a 2003 government report spoke about more risk because of greater competition among women for fewer clients. However, it dismisses the information and blames women themselves for the violence. It relies on a few statements from the police and some women who left prostitution to assert that the real cause is more heroin (Skarhed 2010, 33).
Thus, the government contemptuously tries to avoid any responsibility for violence caused by the law by shifting the blame for violence to the women themselves. Its claim of ‘clean hands’ is not surprising because the report has to reject any concerns or evidence that might support calls to abolish the law.
Sex workers and researchers also say that the crackdown on street based sex work has forced women to move to more hidden and thus potentially dangerous locations. The men still on the streets are reportedly the more dangerous ones while the nice or safe clients have moved to the internet (Norwegian Ministry 2004, 12-14; Östergren 2004, 3). This situation has pushed women to accept more risky clients who may turn out to be violent.
The government has also failed to address the situation of violence against migrant sex workers. Undocumented migrants are deported (Kulick 2005, 209-210) and so undocumented migrant sex workers would understandably be unlikely to report violence to the police. Clients are subject to arrest and so they are now presumably less likely to report cases of abuse or possible trafficking of sex workers to the police. This situation clearly increases the vulnerability of migrants to abuse.
As sex workers move into more hidden locations to avoid the police, they may end up in the hands of third parties to keep the police away and help find clients (Dodillet and Östergren 2011, 22; Swedish National Board of Health and Welfare 2007, 4-48; Bernstein 2008, 154, 163). Whether this results in more or less violence for the women is not known. The government does not address this issue in its 2010 report.

quote:

Sex workers report that criminalization of clients in Sweden has reinforced and increased the social stigma about prostitution (Skarhed 2010, 34; Dodillet and Östergren 2011, 21). The law adopts traditional patriarchal images of innocent, sexually pure women – in need of rescue and protection – and bad women - social deviants who sell sex - who do not deserve society’s protection. The government and its supporters hope that, by using negative images to increase stigma of sex workers and their customers, public pressure will force them to conform (at least superficially) to the views of the majority.
No wonder then that the government openly encourages increased stigma. The report declares that the negative effects of stigma due to the law “must be viewed as positive from the perspective that the purpose of the law is indeed to combat prostitution” (Skarhed 2010, 34, emphasis supplied). In other words, the many harms of social stigma are, in fact, a positive outcome of the law because stigma may push women into other forms of work.

quote:

Kulick reports that police harassment has increased: sex workers “can be forced to appear in court to provide testimony against the client” and must appear even if they refuse to testify. When “caught with a client, their belongings are searched and they may be frisked.” Their possessions – such as condoms - can be confiscated as evidence (Kulick 2000; see also Dodillet and Östergren 2011, 22; Danna 2007, 37).
Law enforcement’s treatment of sex workers – who are not criminals and have a legal right to sell sex - was not covered in the 2010 report.

quote:

In general, as sex workers move further underground, they have less access to health services and are less able to exchange information about risky clients, and health or other issues. Access to condoms and information about safe sex practices are essential to promote health among sex workers, clients and the general public.
So, when the police confiscate condoms to use as evidence of prostitution, they are directly undermining the health of sex workers, clients and their other sexual partners. Confiscation makes it more likely that clients will refuse to use condoms and that sex workers and brothels will not carry them. It also increases the risk of people engaging in unsafe sex practices leading to more sexually-transmitted infections and HIV.

General China posted:

No, I have relinquished my prolier than thou title, what with me living in a posh house that was never owned by the council.

Hows your mental health and alcoholism?

General China posted:

No, I have relinquished my prolier than thou title, what with me living in a posh house that was never owned by the council.

Hows your mental health and alcoholism?

Pesmerga posted:

loving hell, I hope that wasn't intended the way it came across!

General China posted:

No, I have relinquished my prolier than thou title, what with me living in a posh house that was never owned by the council.

Hows your mental health and alcoholism?

schadenfraud posted:

Was listening to Money Box on Radio 4 earlier. Barclays, it turns out, has joined the esteemed ranks of wonga and other payday loan types. Their new overdraft charges, which are now 75p per day are, if converted back into interest, something ridiculous like 26,000%pa.

General China posted:

What's the best way to catch and kill a pheasant that doesn't involve firearms? The things are a major pest in my new country abode, pulling up my garlic and onions.

General China posted:

I did once briefly own a Barbour jacket

General China posted:

I am seriously considering buying a Landrover

General China posted:

The Norfolk coast is a beautiful place to go on holiday

General China posted:

dont be including me in no middleclass guilt

General China posted:

This reminds me of the time my dad gave some food to an interdenominational church food bank.

General China posted:

He winked at the bloke behind the counter and told him- make sure this goes to protestants only, I don't want my food being eaten by papists.

Like me, my dad can be an arsehole even when he's joking.

Nevett posted:

I don't doubt the shittiness of Barclays, but I'm not sure how you can convert a flat rate into a percentage?

schadenfraud posted:

Was listening to Money Box on Radio 4 earlier. Barclays, it turns out, has joined the esteemed ranks of wonga and other payday loan types. Their new overdraft charges, which are now 75p per day are, if converted back into interest, something ridiculous like 26,000%pa.

People most hosed = people who regularly use their overdraft, eg pensioners, students, grads, the poor.

Is this why it all went kind of quiet on the "let's crack down on payday loans" front? Because their mates at the big banks decided to engage in this fantastic wheeze as well?

Xachariah posted:

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something but my current overdraft charge is a flat £20 if I'm one penny over no matter if I make it positive ASAP. I'd be fairly happy with just 75p per day if I overdraft.

Zero Gravitas posted:

I feel like I need a Correctness check.

I managed to pick up a very well paid tuition gig over these easter holidays, but I'm tutoring a bunch of private school kids. I dont know how to feel about this but the lady who was on the reception is the first person I've met in real life had who both pronounced "What" with two "h"'s and uses "What?" as punctuation on the end of a sentence. Had to actively bite my tongue instead of pulling a Vimes and replying with "When?" on the end of my own sentences.

On the other hand, doing this job means that I'm helping these kids out and I get to pay my own uni tuition fees this year.

Zero Gravitas posted:

I feel like I need a Correctness check.

I managed to pick up a very well paid tuition gig over these easter holidays, but I'm tutoring a bunch of private school kids. I dont know how to feel about this but the lady who was on the reception is the first person I've met in real life had who both pronounced "What" with two "h"'s and uses "What?" as punctuation on the end of a sentence. Had to actively bite my tongue instead of pulling a Vimes and replying with "When?" on the end of my own sentences.

On the other hand, doing this job means that I'm helping these kids out and I get to pay my own uni tuition fees this year.

Zero Gravitas posted:

tutoring a bunch of private school kids

Total Meatlove posted:

worry about your ideological soul when you're in a better financial position?

hookerbot 5000 posted:

If it really bothers you spend a couple of hours a week tutoring kids from the non private school for free. I was thinking about looking for a tutor to help my kid pass his maths higher but couldn't have afforded it. Someone offering to do it for free would have been awesome and could potentially make a massive difference.

But realistically you're not doing anything wrong - it's not like refusing to do it is going to bring down the class system.

Total Meatlove posted:

Why not work like an adult and worry about your ideological soul when you're in a better financial position?

Touchdown Boy posted:

Because thats how Capitalism gets everyone hooked in, then its too late.

The Guardian posted:

Homeowners raising average asking price in London by 7% a month

Sellers are attempting to cash in on a buoyant housing market by raising average asking prices in some London boroughs by more than 7% in a month, according to property website Rightmove.

Across the country average asking prices rose 2.6% in April, and were 7.3% higher than this time last year – the biggest annual rise since October 2007, before the credit crunch took hold, according to the website's monthly figures.

In the north London borough of Brent, where lender Nationwide recently reported that sale prices had risen by almost a third over the past year, Rightmove said new asking prices have increased by 7.9% in a month. In neighbouring Camden, asking prices have risen by 7.5% since mid-March, and in nearby Harringey they are up by 7.1%.

The website also reported a strong ripple effect pushing asking prices to new highs across the south of the country.

Economic forecasters at Ernst & Young meanwhile have predicted house prices of 7% nationally this year will be repeated in 2015, but discounted fears of the housing market heading for a bubble.

Arguing that a revival in house building and tighter lending criteria would keep a lid on prices outside London, the E&Y Item Club predicted UK house price rises would moderate to 4.2% in 2016.

Peter Spencer, chief economic adviser to Item, said: "The housing market is not experiencing a typical debt-fuelled recovery. Gross mortgage lending has increased but this has largely been financed by an increase in repayments by existing borrowers.

"New mortgage lending remains at rock bottom while government initiatives such as the Help to Buy schemes will be having little impact on prices in London, where activity is fuelled by cash rather than mortgage borrowing."

The Rightmove figures showed that in Greater London, sellers are asking 15.9% more for homes than they were last April – at an average of more than £572,000 – and asking prices in and around the capital are now 41% higher than in 2007 – a rise of more than £168,000 on the average property.

But in the north and in Wales sellers are still expecting less: in the north-west of England, asking prices remain 8.8% less than their 2007 peak, despite a 2% year-on-year increase, while in Wales and Yorkshire they are still more than 7% below previous highs.

Latest figures from rival website Zoopla showed that 27% of properties on sale in March had been reduced in price, and that the average discount stood at 6.25%, or £20,782.

In Wakefield 42% of properties on the market had seen price cuts, and even in London, where activity levels have been high, 15% of asking prices had been reduced.

However, in the hottest parts of the market, estate agents are reporting frenzied bidding by would-be buyers, with some properties attracting multiple bids over the asking price.

Rightmove's director, Miles Shipside, said: "Supply in much of the south is ridiculously tight, with for sale board blackspots in many popular locations within easy commuting distance of London," he said. "There are vicious circles where there is so little property for sale that few local home-owners are willing to come to market to trade up, exacerbating the shortages and boosting sellers' pricing power."

The monthly figures are compiled using the asking prices of properties which are newly listed with estate agents, and do not reflect the prices achieved by sellers.

However, Shipside said he did not expect changes to rules around mortgage lending which are due to come into force this month to calm the market. The rules, which will force banks and building societies to undertake tougher affordability checks before they grant loans, may reduce some borrowers' buying power, but Shipside said the imbalance between supply and demand was likely to support prices.

"Whilst a higher percentage of borderline mortgage applications will be weeded out, the overall numbers of those who are mortgage-worthy and wish to borrow and buy, combined with lenders who are flushed with funds, is still likely to result in increased buyer demand," he said. "It is encouraging that more home-owners are selling, increasing churn and supply and helping to moderate house price growth. However, because we should have built more in the past and are still not planning to build enough, prices will continue to rise in popular locations, further stretching affordability."

baka kaba posted:

Don't forget we live in a Britain where a pair of estate agents are two of our most-loved TV presenters

baka kaba posted:

Don't forget we live in a Britain where a pair of estate agents are two of our most-loved TV presenters

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad posted:

Richard and Judy Holly and Phil aren't estate agents what are you on about

Jimbo Wales posted:

Phil Spencer was the original founder of Garrington Home Finders Ltd, a property search company he created in 1996. He is an active property investor and landlord. He is director and shareholder of Raise The Roof Productions, the largest independent production company in Scotland and one of Channel 4's biggest suppliers of program content.

baka kaba posted:

Phil regularly lets out a bijou living space with high ceilings and entertainment furnishings

e-


Well that explains a lot

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad posted:

Fluo posted:

Seems abit harsh this.

Completely fine for more then 2 years now and in moderation and finally got myself being a productive member of society from my knowledge of the latter. Thank you for asking I didn't know you cared.