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E4C85D38 posted:In that case, would you try to increase seperation somehow (I assume having the trailing plane do a few circles), or just deal with it in some other manner? You'll generally just give them the scenic tour of your airspace like so. We needed 20 miles in trail to KMSP, he got a 270 heading and then a 050 heading before going back on course. I would have just left him on the 270 heading but I wanted to keep him in my airspace. fknlo fucked around with this message at 00:04 on Apr 13, 2014 |
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Apr 13, 2014 00:00
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fknlo posted:You'll generally just give them the scenic tour of your airspace like so. We needed 20 miles in trail to KMSP, he got a 270 heading and then a 050 heading before going back on course. I would have just left him on the 270 heading but I wanted to keep him in my airspace. Pretty much this. Our two MIA departure sectors are really narrow (~40 and ~25nm wide, by maybe 75nm long, IIRC,) so we have to get creative sometimes.
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Apr 13, 2014 00:59
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MrYenko posted:Pretty much this. Our two MIA departure sectors are really narrow (~40 and ~25nm wide, by maybe 75nm long, IIRC,) so we have to get creative sometimes. Is that due to the geography of the other airports close to MIA (FLL, OPF, TMB)?  MIA: Miami International FLL: Fort Lauderdale International, 19 nm north of MIA OPF: Opa-Locka Executive, 7 nm north of MIA TMB: Kendall-Tamiami Executive, 12 nm south of MIA Edit: jesus, there's an airport every 15 miles or so down South Florida from Palm Beach to Homestead. Cocoa Crispies fucked around with this message at 04:04 on Apr 13, 2014 |
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Apr 13, 2014 04:00
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It's more due to the flow of traffic into and out of Miami and the adjacent facilities. Basically, and bear with me, Palm Beach approach is immediately north and adjoining Miami approach, which means there are three paths to Miami from the north. The east coast has arrivals from the northeast going down it, servicing The northeast side of MIA and PBI, while the west coast has arrivals from the whole rest of the country coming in over the Gulf of Mexico. Those arrivals go into Miami approach almost from due west, which means there is a small area between the arrival streams for all of Miami, Fort Lauderdale, Palm Beach, as well as all the satellite airports' departures to go out to the north. All of them go through my area, which has two sectors, each with an MIA departure gate, and an FLL departure gate. Additionally, the eastern departure sector has to blend Palm Beach's departures into their northbound feed to high altitude, which feeds Jax center, and work Orlando arrivals coming from the southeast, including short hops from the Miami area, and anything from South America and the islands, whilst the west departure sector also works all of Palm Beaches arrivals from the west, and Fort Myers arrivals from the northeast. ITS FUN.  (Also, I really wish I could just post my sector maps. It makes more sense when you can look at it.) (Also also: when I say MIA and PBI, I'm referring more to the respective approach controls, and less the individual airports. TPA, RSW, MIA, PBI, all use their airport ID for their approaches. Orlando has F11. I dunno why.)
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Apr 13, 2014 04:35
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MrYenko: If not for getting sick mid-week, last week, I would have had the honor of pissing off palm beach approach and miami approach with low level survey work! Kinda bummed that I didn't get to, I missed out on a lot of flight time 
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Apr 13, 2014 04:45
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MrYenko posted:(Also also: when I say MIA and PBI, I'm referring more to the respective approach controls, and less the individual airports. TPA, RSW, MIA, PBI, all use their airport ID for their approaches. Orlando has F11. I dunno why.) Because MIA, PBI, TPA, and RSW are Towers that are combined with their Approach Controls (same controllers working in the Tower and Approach). F11, Orlando Approach is a separate facility, with separate controllers, than MCO - Orlando International Tower. Generally, the stand-alone TRACONs receive Letter-Number designations. F11, D10, A80, C90 etc. Exceptions include Northern California and Southern California which get NCT and SCT respectively, and Potomac TRACON (PCT), dunno why they're special. http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ato/service_units/air_traffic_services/tracon/ The combined Tower/TRACON facilities are often referred to as Up/Down facilities, because the same controllers both work Up, in the tower, and Down(stairs), in the radar room. The Ferret King fucked around with this message at 05:02 on Apr 13, 2014 |
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Apr 13, 2014 04:55
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The Slaughter posted:MrYenko: If not for getting sick mid-week, last week, I would have had the honor of pissing off palm beach approach and miami approach with low level survey work! Kinda bummed that I didn't get to, I missed out on a lot of flight time Are you one of the guys with C206s doing survey work out to the west, around Punta Gorda and such? It's trailed off in the past two or three weeks, but for a while there it seemed like there was a guy just west of PGD pretty much all day, every day. A bit up just northwest of Lakeland, as well. The Ferret King posted:Because MIA, PBI, TPA, and RSW are Towers that are combined with their Approach Controls (same controllers working in the Tower and Approach). F11, Orlando Approach is a separate facility, with separate controllers, than MCO - Orlando International Tower. Ah HA!
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Apr 13, 2014 05:23
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We do have 206s, but idk if that's us or not. I was out in sarasota not too long ago. Our callsign is snapshot, ... or if you're a controller, "snapchat", or "uh, what's the 3 letter identifier for that?" (FSP)
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Apr 13, 2014 06:41
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Ya, we've talked to you guys a little bit. 127.2, 134.55, 135.17, and 132.45 are us.
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Apr 13, 2014 13:47
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MrYenko posted:(Also, I really wish I could just post my sector maps. It makes more sense when you can look at it.) Are any of these maps like your work maps: http://skyvector.com/?ll=25.943850165864013,-80.26284397636161&chart=470&zoom=3 ?
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Apr 13, 2014 15:18
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Cocoa Crispies posted:Are any of these maps like your work maps: http://skyvector.com/?ll=25.943850165864013,-80.26284397636161&chart=470&zoom=3 ? They're even more cryptic. I posted a bit about terminal radar systems here. Included is a screen shot of an approach radar map (the black on white image). It lacks much of the numbers and annotations because we memorize all the symbols and lines for our area of jurisdiction.
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Apr 13, 2014 16:35
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Cerebral Mayhem posted:So Tommy 2.0, how are you enjoying Masters week? Masters is nothing compared to Sun n Fun for us. And yes, we work the low stuff for them both. The biggest difference between Masters/Sun n' Fun for us is the sheer volume of VF-Tards we have to deal with. These guys fly once in a blue moon just for this one event and have zero clue what they are doing. Masters is pretty well structured now, imo, and it just gets treated as another busy approach control we have to feed (like CLT landers). AGS approach is sort of humorous to us, because at even 6am in the morning they won't let ANYONE fly through their airspace, even at 120. I had to sell a ketchup popsicle to a lady in white gloves to get them to take a VFR. :P Last year was a hoot. Sun n' Fun was the same week as Masters. 
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Apr 13, 2014 17:50
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The Ferret King posted:They're even more cryptic. I posted a bit about terminal radar systems here. Included is a screen shot of an approach radar map (the black on white image). It lacks much of the numbers and annotations because we memorize all the symbols and lines for our area of jurisdiction. To expound on this: There's sector maps, which generally have airways, airway mileages, fixes, navaids, airspace boundaries and altitude limits, etc. they're what you use to learn your airspace. The major addition to them if you're familiar with IFR charts is our internal airspace boundaries, which are almost always different from the airspace boundaries printed on VFR charts. (Terminal facility airspace is almost never round, like is suggested on VFR charts. That's just the airspace in which you're required to follow their rules in.) Sector maps can get cluttered, but at the same time, they lack quite a bit of information that's on the IFR high and low charts, like frequencies, VOR bearing rings, airport information other than the name, etc. That information is available to us, (we keep a full set of IFR high and low charts around, and we have an informational computer at each console called ERIDS,) but it isn't used very often in operations, because the pilot is already (supposed to be) looking at the applicable IFR chart. They're produced in-house, and aren't available outside the facility. I'm pretty sure they're controlled material, as well. Not positive on that, though. Then there's the radar map, or video map. That map is literally what appears on your radar scope. There are different filters for each video map, to turn on and off restricted airspace, airways, IR routes, etc. the biggest difference is that there is no writing of any kind on video maps in HOST. You have to be familiar with the airspace already to really understand what you're looking at. Most areas in my facility have their video maps set to display airports, airspace boundaries, fixes (and not all of those,) navaids, arrival/departure gates, and little else. No geographic information is presented at all. Those settings are not really customizable at all. There is a draw and text feature, so you can put text on the map, but you can't, for instance, toggle on all the fix names. ERAM is significantly more customizable for the end user, who can toggle on and off fix names, airways and names, airport and navaid names, and major geographical features (lake Okeechobee, the coastline, etc,) and other things. Bonus: when looking for a picture of ERIDS, I finally found a decent shot of a couple of HOST consoles:  The two tall monitors towards the left are radar scopes. Each scope has a radar associate position next to it, although the closest one is out of the frame. The monitor to the right, canted more towards the camera is the URET (User Request Evaluation Tool, renamed to Enhanced Decision Support Tool in ERAM,) display, and the tall touch screen above it is ERIDS (EnRoute Information Display System.) The scopes are either right handed or left handed, by which I mean the URET or strip bay is to the right or left of the radar display. This also means that in areas with strips, you have to develop at least a passing amount of ambidexterity. You can see strip bays in the immediate left of the frame, and a large bank of them to the right of the center position's URET. You can also see the terribly depressing neutral colored walls and carpet. That area has the lights turned up a bit above where ours are, so it's even more depressing than normal. 
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Apr 13, 2014 17:56
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MrYenko posted:Bonus: when looking for a picture of ERIDS, I finally found a decent shot of a couple of HOST consoles: Look at you, with your lights on and everything. 
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Apr 13, 2014 19:52
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I don't understand how you can not want to shoot yourself in the head while being in an underground building 8 hours a day in a dark room staring at a computer screen doing a stressful job.
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Apr 13, 2014 20:49
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The Slaughter posted:I don't understand how you can not want to shoot yourself in the head while being in an underground building 8 hours a day in a dark room staring at a computer screen doing a stressful job. Some people like stress and darkness. I think I'd like the job but I would prefer a more flexible schedule.
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Apr 13, 2014 20:52
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The Slaughter posted:I don't understand how you can not want to shoot yourself in the head while being in an underground building 8 hours a day in a dark room staring at a computer screen doing a stressful job. As opposed to how I spend the rest of my home life? (sitting in a dark room staring at a screen playing video games).
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Apr 13, 2014 21:18
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JohnClark posted:Look at you, with your lights on and everything. Not my facility. (I think that's ZLC.) My areas lights are definitely brighter than any approach control I've ever been in, but not as bright as that.
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Apr 13, 2014 21:29
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The Ferret King posted:As opposed to how I spend the rest of my home life? (sitting in a dark room staring at a screen playing video games). That makes it even more depressing. Ugh.
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Apr 13, 2014 21:34
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The Slaughter posted:That makes it even more depressing. Ugh. Well I feel fine, you're the one that hates flying. MrYenko posted:Not my facility. (I think that's ZLC.) We keep it pretty dark in my TRACON as well, even though the displays could handle some lower level lighting without too much problem with glare. A brightly lit room would be annoying though, the screens are too reflective and the glare would be annoying. At my old facility with the green/sweepy radar display, a lit room would be impossible to work in, the image washes out completely with even moderate amounts of light.
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Apr 13, 2014 21:57
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Haha, I don't hate flying. I love going to get a $100 (okay, $300, let's be honest here) hamburger. But I don't always enjoy working. It's totally different when someone is telling you when and where to fly. Sometimes it's great, sometimes it sucks. And I have a feeling when I'm doing KFAT-KPHX-KFAT-KPHX-KFAT over and over for a week that I'm probably going to get sick of it, just as anybody would.
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Apr 13, 2014 22:57
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The Slaughter posted:KFAT-KPHX-KFAT-KPHX-KFAT Ok, so funny story, and I feel a little bad about this because he's the nicest loving guy and he's headed to much busier pastures so I expect he's become a decent controller... But, one of my classmates during my first visit to the Academy was placed at FAT (Fresno Tower/TRACON, Fresno California). I come in on the first day and we all take our seats next to our name/facility paper placards. We each step up to the front of the class and introduce ourselves, so you can get a good look at everyone's facility/name sitting in front of them on the table. There sat "First Name, Last Name, FAT." He was like 350lbs easily. Probably more.
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Apr 13, 2014 23:04
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The name/facility placards for our class were jumbled. Everyone had someone else's last name. There was only a single card with the first, last, and facility correct, and that guy never reported for work.
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Apr 13, 2014 23:11
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MrYenko posted:I'm pretty sure they're controlled material, as well. Not positive on that, though. I have a set of "old" maps of our full high and low sectors for the whole center hanging in my apartment. They give them out when they get updated ones. That doesn't mean I'm going to scan them or take pictures though, because I don't want to get in trouble even though they hand them out pretty freely.
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Apr 13, 2014 23:25
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Can't imagine they're that sensitive. All they have are the minimum vectoring/en route altitudes and the airspace boundaries. Other than that they're typical low/high altitude charts.
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Apr 13, 2014 23:31
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Just post what you'd like to share but can't and I'm sure someone will FOIA all that stuff for you.
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Apr 13, 2014 23:32
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That's what's so silly, a FOIA will get almost anything interesting out of the FAA. Radar/Voice replays, maps, charts, SOPs, letters. You just have to wait for the request to be fulfilled and possibly pay a nominal fee. The more diligent hobbyists I know on VATSIM have submitted FOIA requests in the past for sector map information to better simulate ATC, and have received them on CDs free of charge.
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Apr 13, 2014 23:35
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Guy in my OKC class was going to KPNS. I squeaked a E and an I in the appropriate places. Every time our instructor would call on him he would see his name tag and chuckle. It wasn't until the last day did he find out why when he grabbed his name tag and saw it.The Slaughter posted:I don't understand how you can not want to shoot yourself in the head while being in an underground building 8 hours a day in a dark room staring at a computer screen doing a stressful job. Some people like it. I was raised in a tower first so I hate it. I miss actually seeing the cool stuff and sunlight.
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Apr 14, 2014 00:06
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Sunlight is overrated.
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Apr 14, 2014 00:17
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When you certify at a Tower/TRACON facility you also realize in short order that all of your time will be spent working in the dark, while trainees get the tower time. I spend about 90% of my time down, vs. up.
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Apr 14, 2014 00:20
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There's apparently a waiting list to train in the tower at MIA. Like, a two-plus year waiting list. And some people are told straight up that they will never even get a shot at
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Apr 14, 2014 00:29
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That's probably to combat the usual effect of Up/Down (combined Tower/TRACON facilities) staffing shortages. Which is, usually people certify in the tower first and then take FOREVER to certify in the radar room, assuming they don't wash out (and many do, on radar). So they're probably trying to combat that by getting the painful part over with first. If you certify on radar at Miami, there's no way you're going to wash out in the tower unless you're a special breed of super radar/stupid tower controller... I mean, it could happen, but it's a pretty big step backwards in complexity. It's better than spending 2 years certifying a new guy in the tower, just to find out a year into radar training that they're not capable and now they have to go somewhere else/get fired. Plus, due to the staffing crisis, trainees that are certified on even one position in the entire facility are often counted as full employees for staffing purposes. They spend their entire work day assigned to the 1 position they're qualified on because it's needed, instead of getting quality training time on the positions they have yet to complete. Long story short, the staffing issue and the training environment in the FAA currently is untenable. The Ferret King fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Apr 14, 2014 |
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Apr 14, 2014 00:32
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The Ferret King posted:That's probably to combat the usual effect of Up/Down (combined Tower/TRACON facilities) staffing shortages. Which is, usually people certify in the tower first and then take FOREVER to certify in the radar room, assuming they don't wash out (and many do, on radar). So they're probably trying to combat that by getting the painful part over with first. If you certify on radar at Miami, there's no way you're going to wash out in the tower unless you're a special breed of super radar/stupid tower controller... I mean, it could happen, but it's a pretty big step backwards in complexity. I have one position. I also have a six day work week for five of the upcoming six work weeks. In short, you are correct.
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Apr 14, 2014 00:43
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Anyone else annoyed by the new "climb via SID" phraseology?
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Apr 14, 2014 06:31
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Iucounu posted:Anyone else annoyed by the new "climb via SID" phraseology? Doesn't it remove a lot of verbiage if you can just issue a climb via SID, with the implied altitude/speed restrictions, instead of having to call them out explicitly </not cpc> SeaborneClink fucked around with this message at 10:56 on Apr 14, 2014 |
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Apr 14, 2014 07:53
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SeaborneClink posted:<not cpc> I was previously under the impression that a pilot on a SID was expected to comply with all published restrictions when they're on said SID. But, I'm a relatively new CPC without a whole lot of radar experience.
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Apr 14, 2014 08:07
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We're not special enough to need departure procedures where I work. In fact the other place I work didn't have them either. I expect I'll have to learn to deal with it later in my career if I go somewhere busy.
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Apr 14, 2014 10:50
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I think, and I'm willing to be corrected, is that it removes a lot of talk between ATC and pilots if ATC needs to vector the aircraft off the published DP (departure procedure) and then get them back onto the published DP but give them direct to another fix (VOR/intersection/waypoint) but still maintaining that fix's altitude and/or speed restriction. Say for example, you have a step climb off of a runway, cross Alpha at/above 5000, Bravo 7000, Charlie 10,000, Delta 15,000 but the departing aircraft is vectored for spacing off the DP between Alpha and Bravo, ATC issues "Direct Delta, climb via <DP>" So if vectored off the depicted DP, a "climb via" clearance cancels or deletes any previous lateral or vertical restrictions (speed restrictions must still be adhered to) and clears the aircraft to resume navigation to rejoin the DP at the aforementioned fix. That was at least my understanding  NBAA page talking about the changes, here is a powerpoint if you want a visual reference, or a video if you have nothing better to do. 
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Apr 14, 2014 11:17
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The silly thing about "Climb Via" that I've been hearing, is that it's being used on basic vector and conventional navigation departures that don't have mandatory altitudes at fixes along the route. For example, the procedure might say: "Fly assigned heading, maintain 5000, expect filed altitude 10 minutes after departure." ATC is issuing, and the pilot must state, the Climb Via phraseology for such a departure and it seems kinda verbose. All that departure procedure is supposed to do is reduce verbiage from clearance delivery and they're taking a step backwards, in this humble controller's opinion.
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Apr 14, 2014 12:51
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The Ferret King posted:The silly thing about "Climb Via" that I've been hearing, is that it's being used on basic vector and conventional navigation departures that don't have mandatory altitudes at fixes along the route. For example, the procedure might say: They also just changed weather deviation phraseology. Apparently, saying "Deviations approved, when able, proceed direct fix" will keep a pilot from abandoning all commonsense, and turning directly into a thunderstorm, which was apparently happening constantly when the phraseology was "Deviations approved, when able, direct fix..."
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Apr 14, 2014 13:16
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