Boogaleeboo posted:Wait, seriously, you just noticed that now? Oh it was very easy to notice, I'm just pointing it out to the people skimming through who haven't been enlightened as to who you are yet (although to be fair, it's really obvious).
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# ? Mar 13, 2014 22:57 |
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# ? May 15, 2024 03:08 |
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It amazes me how everyone is getting hung up about ~imperialism~ against a nuclear armed nation with a large economy while ignoring the much more immediate issue of India having lots of gang rapes and no effective response to that
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# ? Mar 13, 2014 23:01 |
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Dusz posted:Oh it was very easy to notice, I'm just pointing it out to the people skimming through who haven't been enlightened as to who you are yet (although to be fair, it's really obvious). Yes, it was obvious when I said it and then when I reminded someone else that I said it a few posts later. It's not so much any more obvious when you immediately bring it up again as it is a sign you may be operating under serious short term memory less. Much like whatever major malfunction keeps you from answering those 3 simple questions. And yet you think you are maintaining dignity in the thread so far?
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# ? Mar 13, 2014 23:05 |
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Let's quit the imperialism derail, please. Anyhow, to respond to Ardennes I don't think India is going to catch up to China any time soon or be a real powerhouse but it could at least generate enough export dollars to fund a decent welfare state and get Indian people educated and skilled.
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# ? Mar 13, 2014 23:05 |
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Boogaleeboo posted:Wait, seriously, you just noticed that now? So is it really important he answers the question? Or not because you're only kidding?
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# ? Mar 13, 2014 23:07 |
Boogaleeboo posted:Yes, it was obvious when I said it and then when I reminded someone else that I said it a few posts later. It's not so much any more obvious when you immediately bring it up again as it is a sign you may be operating under serious short term memory less. Much like whatever major malfunction keeps you from answering those 3 simple questions. And yet you think you are maintaining dignity in the thread so far? You mean those three simple questions that I have already answered, and that were asked with the sole purpose of setting me up for a "gotcha"? I think this is relevant because it's an important concept when discussing India.
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# ? Mar 13, 2014 23:08 |
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Dusz posted:I think this is relevant because it's an important concept when discussing India.
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# ? Mar 13, 2014 23:25 |
Typo posted:Or more to the point, it's pretty the lowest common denominator debate in D&D. You can pretty much apply it to discussing any social/political/economics issue, it's something where everyone can get awfully excited and grind their political axes without any specialized knowledge on the actual country being discussed. Well he just got probated so I guess that's as far as that is going to go. And I think you have a very valid point but in order to achieve what you're saying, it isn't always a good idea just to let people make ironic shitposts for the sake of impressing their offsite circlejerk. Sometimes, it's good to engage them.
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# ? Mar 13, 2014 23:31 |
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I'm surprised at the dearth of Indian goons, at least in D&D. The only person who seems to have any deep first-hand of India is Yiggy, whom I hope will return and enlighten us further on India's situation and history. How much is the shift in tech support from India to the Philippines hurting India, in quantitative terms?
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# ? Mar 13, 2014 23:46 |
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Is there a shift from India to the Philippines? I don't mean speculative editorials, but hard data from the service sector accounting.
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# ? Mar 14, 2014 02:29 |
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OwlBot 2000 posted:I'm surprised at the dearth of Indian goons, at least in D&D. The only person who seems to have any deep first-hand of India is Yiggy, whom I hope will return and enlighten us further on India's situation and history. How much is the shift in tech support from India to the Philippines hurting India, in quantitative terms? < Indian goon, but don't post in D&D. Born here, been living here for 30 years. This thread is kinda infuriating. The shift of low-skill IT/support jobs to Southeast Asia from India is real and awesome. The only reason for this is the cost of labour, which now in India is no longer as low as it was earlier. Nobody wants to work in lovely call centers in night shifts for peanuts. Those same people who were working in IT support have moved to areas like testing. There are as many tech startups opening up in Bangalore as Silicon Valley. IT in india is not going anywhere. This thread's premise is pretty disturbing, and I can't even start responding to some of the comments. The "only solution" is more indians getting educated abroad? Holy poo poo, are you real? Our higher education system is so far better than anything in US/Europe that such comments are ridiculous. Give us a few more decades of getting used to rule ourselves. Corruption and shoddy law-enforcement are the biggest issues which we discuss every single day. Things are changing, slower than anyone would like but they are.
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# ? Mar 14, 2014 09:55 |
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Thanks for the post, I only wish you had gotten here a few pages ago. What percentage of Indians have indoor plumbing these days, out of curiosity? Is hygiene in cities improving at all?
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# ? Mar 14, 2014 09:57 |
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The Philippines is oddly higher up the industrialization ladder than India as a whole: much higher proportion non-agricultural, much higher literacy, dramatically higher households with running water and electricity (87% vs 67% for electricity, from a rough google). For that reason I was skeptical of the assertion. If I had to guess, taking it as given that there really is a value-chain migration, I think what we are really seeing is a movement from Kerala to the Philippines specifically. The low-value-added jobs will return when other areas of India reach an appropriate level of industrialization, hopefully.
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# ? Mar 14, 2014 10:10 |
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Anarkii posted:This thread's premise is pretty disturbing, and I can't even start responding to some of the comments. The "only solution" is more indians getting educated abroad? Holy poo poo, are you real? Our higher education system is so far better than anything in US/Europe that such comments are ridiculous. Out of curiosity: what's India's higher education system like, what are its strengths/weaknesses?
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# ? Mar 14, 2014 12:29 |
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Anarkii posted:Holy poo poo, are you real? Our higher education system is so far better than anything in US/Europe that such comments are ridiculous. Business Standard posted:link The Times of India posted:link The Daily Mail India posted:link The Economic Times Blogs posted:link The Economist posted:link Yiggy fucked around with this message at 13:28 on Mar 14, 2014 |
# ? Mar 14, 2014 13:15 |
Anarkii posted:Our higher education system is so far better than anything in US/Europe that such comments are ridiculous. That's...not even close to true (assuming you refer to post-secondary education, i.e. university/college). Where did you get that idea?!?
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# ? Mar 14, 2014 13:24 |
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Indian universities are comparatively much worse at research or undergraduate education, but I am not really sure either of those are actually appropriate for a situation like India, which needs to process vast amounts of students with comparatively little resources.
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# ? Mar 14, 2014 13:31 |
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ronya posted:Indian universities are comparatively much worse at research or undergraduate education, but I am not really sure either of those are actually appropriate for a situation like India, which needs to process vast amounts of students with comparatively little resources. If the goal is to rubber stamp their students, than sure, they've certainly built the capacity to do that. But when they've tried to tailor their economy and growth around high skilled workers, it matters that their university system is failing to effectively train their workers for this sort of niche and that employers are having difficult times finding competent staff. This is another op-ed I found which speaks to this problem, most relevant parts bolded. NYTimes Op-Ed posted:link
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# ? Mar 14, 2014 13:43 |
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As a warning, let me point out that this forum of (largely) Americans is liable to interpret the "we can't find trained workers domestically" claim in the American frame, i.e., in the context of a society with 99% literacy and very high internal labour mobility, and considerable political agitation over skilled guest worker labour. So they do not find the claim persuasive, even in the context of other countries. Such is the luxury of being a superpower. Myself, I would point to the prevalence of rote assessment and endemic cheating, particularly outside of the handful of top colleges, the highly obscurantist governance/funding practices of Indian higher ed institutions, the extremely dubious proliferation of quasi-private colleges in an education-industry environment with extremely weak and corrupt regulation, etc. Churning out semi-skilled workers who can speak English and follow fixed instructions is not exactly ideal as outcomes go, for higher ed investment, but to be frank India is not investing very much in that higher ed anyway. And the answer to "but this would not work for a model that requires a pool of skilled labour" is "that model was wrong anyway; you need to mobilize your half of your labour force still stuck in agriculture, not coddle your small bourgeoisie". ronya fucked around with this message at 14:06 on Mar 14, 2014 |
# ? Mar 14, 2014 14:02 |
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ronya posted:As a warning, let me point out that this forum of (largely) Americans is liable to interpret the "we can't find trained workers domestically" claim in the American frame, i.e., in the context of a society with 99% literacy and very high internal labour mobility, and considerable political agitation over skilled guest worker labour. So they do not find the claim persuasive, even in the context of other countries. Such is the luxury of being a superpower. I would tend to agree with all of that. I'd also note that I don't want to completely condemn the approach so far they've taken to education, which is to greatly expand capacity and infrastructure with building more Universities. I just don't think thats enough, and I wouldn't assume that many Indians think so either, a lot of those quotes I found in one of my posts above were from Indian press and Indian politicians. Furthermore, all of that building and construction is employing lower-skilled Indians, and so in that regard is definitely a good thing. But, as that op-ed noted, a lot of the criticism to problems of Indian education (and really, India in general... the Khobrogade incident encapsulated this neatly...) prompts a reflexive stubbornness, and I think that is certainly reflected in this thread when part of a native Indian's first reaction is to tell us we're all high, and that their education system surpasses both the US and UK (though to be fair he credits the same problems with corruption that most of us have been harping on). Now on one level I certainly empathize with his defense of India, I love it too, and some of the criticisms in this thread are a little shallow and off base. But certainly not all of them. I just think part of caring about India involves recognizing the faults with the beauty. We could absolutely argue all day about how hosed up the US is on different fronts, but there are like twenty other threads with that covered. Yiggy fucked around with this message at 14:39 on Mar 14, 2014 |
# ? Mar 14, 2014 14:26 |
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Anarkii posted:Our higher education system is so far better than anything in US/Europe that such comments are ridiculous. Typo fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Mar 14, 2014 |
# ? Mar 14, 2014 18:32 |
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Well, one thing that should be done in India is have that rear end in a top hat removed from what ever power he has Is this for real?
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# ? Apr 13, 2014 20:28 |
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He has a point about capital punishment but somehow I doubt that 's his reason for speaking out.
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# ? Apr 13, 2014 20:34 |
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Well, how about this? this guy says that women who have sex before marriage... should be hung. Yeah, that's appropriate. So let off the rapists but hang the woman? What the absolute gently caress?
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# ? Apr 13, 2014 20:40 |
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Why did Narendra Modi keep his wife secret for 50 years?quote:This wife may come as a surprise to some: Modi has repeatedly said that his lack of family makes him an ideal politician. "I am single, who will I be corrupt for?" he told a campaign rally in February. He had previously told his own biographer that he enjoyed "loneliness."
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# ? Apr 13, 2014 20:43 |
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SpannerX posted:Well, how about this? this guy says that women who have sex before marriage... should be hung. Yeah, that's appropriate. So let off the rapists but hang the woman? What the absolute gently caress? Yeah, that's pretty horrible. Also the fact that he's a socialist party leader is hilariously depressing.
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# ? Apr 13, 2014 20:46 |
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Nckdictator posted:Yeah, that's pretty horrible. Also the fact that he's a socialist party leader is hilariously depressing. Debatably socialist. Many of them are devoutly religious (including the Muslim guy responsible for saying women who have sex before marriage should be hanged), and Wikipedia lists them as "populism" above "democratic socialism" and describes their politics as "center left" -- something no socialist would ever be accused of. It's just a name and a way to gain votes "of a caste grouping called Other Backward Classes (OBCs)."
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# ? Apr 13, 2014 20:58 |
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Frosted Flake posted:Cool let's all sit on our hands. There is nothing Indians can learn from Western society. No, it's more like the very act of trying to teach or reform carries so much danger snd baggage it's actually better not to try.
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# ? Apr 14, 2014 21:25 |
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It comes down to cultural superiority/inferiority. India is trying to throw off cultural influences and become their own master, only to find that the influences of their past and continuing influences from the present have shifted the power away from themselves. They will never be a first rate world power and because of the deep socioeconomic issues, as well as the deep cultural issues present in the country, they have more or less lost the right to keep their seat at the dinner table. They need a good war, civil or otherwise, to reduce the overall population, and expose people to what it means to be free. Show them what it means to truly fight for something. Meanwhile, dam the Ganges, strip-mine as much in the way of natural resources out of the area, and setup massive block-housing with indoor plumbing. You cannot be a world power when people poo poo in the streets. Looking at you Philippines. If it isn't a civil war, then it needs to be an external act of aggression, maybe China determining there is mineral wealth in the northern part of India or somesuch. Something to reduce both populations by a large number. This is called a mutually beneficial situation.
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# ? Apr 14, 2014 21:37 |
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I hope that's A Modest Proposal and not something you seriously believe, with regard to wanting a dramatic population reduction and a war.
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# ? Apr 14, 2014 21:41 |
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Rhonyn Peacemaker posted:It comes down to cultural superiority/inferiority. You know that right now India's birth rates are slowing and are already down to about 2.6 per family sopfff what am I saying, of course you don't, you're advocating literally Malthusianism.
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# ? Apr 14, 2014 23:34 |
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How can India maintain a high Civscore if its cities don't have Sewers and Aqueducts built in them? I think to solve this problem, a large amount of people, maybe a hundred million people or more, should die violently. Most countries that want to be a Great Power have made this commitment. I think India should make it too.
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# ? Apr 15, 2014 00:22 |
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Rhonyn Peacemaker posted:It comes down to cultural superiority/inferiority. I really don't know why people disagree with me that "Do Nothing" is the best idea when half the ideas in this thread amount to "Bring back the British" and the other half is "Cull the unwashed herd" Like, this thread itself is proof enough that trying to "educate" India would be an unbelievable moral disaster. We'd like to pretend that through debate and discussion the most noble and bright ideas will be acted upon, but any look at history will tell you that what happens is that the most exploitative and racist ideas are the ones with the most traction. Show me an instance of Western powers trying to educate a people they see as a problem, and in need of a solution that didn't turn into a complete shitshow.
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# ? Apr 15, 2014 00:48 |
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Thundercracker posted:Show me an instance of Western powers trying to educate a people they see as a problem, and in need of a solution that didn't turn into a complete shitshow. The Western powers themselves are a pretty solid example of a group of countries that educated their people past the point of gang raping the village witch and incinerating her in the backyard of the police station.
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# ? Apr 15, 2014 00:52 |
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Fallom posted:The Western powers themselves are a pretty solid example of a group of countries that educated their people past the point of gang raping the village witch and incinerating her in the backyard of the police station. It's one thing to provide education for members of your own culture, and a fairly different thing to try and 'educate' another culture. That's before you consider the fact that providing 'education' for subordinated cultures has been a historical feature of every empire ever, and was often involved cruelty and repression towards the subordinate culture.
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# ? Apr 15, 2014 00:55 |
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I'm not sure why education about FGM or wife burnings needs to be put in quotes.
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# ? Apr 15, 2014 00:56 |
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New Division posted:It's one thing to provide education for members of your own culture, and a fairly different thing to try and 'educate' another culture. That's before you consider the fact that providing 'education' for subordinated cultures has been a historical feature of every empire ever, and was often involved cruelty and repression towards the subordinate culture. Why are there dismissive quotes around education when the issue is mainly 'don't rape girls and set them on fire or cut their clits off'? Can we not say there are objectively wrong views to hold and they should be educated away?
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# ? Apr 15, 2014 00:58 |
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Fallom posted:The Western powers themselves are a pretty solid example of a group of countries that educated their people past the point of gang raping the village witch and incinerating her in the backyard of the police station. Sometimes you need to march the poor and under-educated off to a war for god and/or country to ensure that the education and cultural change takes root. It allows things to change back home so that when the fighting stops, the changes have happened. This would only benefit India in the long run. Unfortunately no one wants to make the hard choices and recognize that humans are a renewable resource. A little war, some contested territory, conventional warfare in a province or two, maybe with an aggressive neighbor, and a peace treaty that changes a boarder here, a little there, and the status quo remains largely the same, except the population is now 30% lighter and the average literacy in the country just increased by 20-odd percentage points.
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# ? Apr 15, 2014 00:58 |
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Rhonyn Peacemaker posted:Sometimes you need to march the poor and under-educated off to a war for god and/or country to ensure that the education and cultural change takes root. It allows things to change back home so that when the fighting stops, the changes have happened. Look at these words, arranged in this order. There are capital letters and periods, even.
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# ? Apr 15, 2014 00:58 |
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# ? May 15, 2024 03:08 |
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I don't really get why people are going after a dude for putting quotation marks around "Education" when their own posts are bookended by ones suggesting that a little war to destroy some thirty percent of the Indian population might be a good solution to go for.
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# ? Apr 15, 2014 01:01 |