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menino posted:Balls: Oh hey, an unified Korea. Even deadly enemies can band together if there's a third party they can hate. 
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Apr 20, 2014 18:52
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Disco Infiva posted:Oh hey, an unified Korea. Even deadly enemies can band together if there's a third party they can hate. I am curious about NK's attitudes towards Japan, though I imagine it's similar to China/SK but with more crazy.
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Apr 20, 2014 18:53
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Japan brutally occupied the Koreas for decades and a big part of the legitimacy of North Korea's leadership comes from them being freedom fighters that fought against the occupation; you can do the math.
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Apr 20, 2014 19:13
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Yeah, Japan is the historical bogeyman from long before the current divide came into place, and if you follow that bizarro "Korean Central News Agency" website or whatever it's called, the one full of NK propaganda stories, there are a surprising number of them that are extremely pro-South Korean control of Dok-Do, and they poo poo all over Japan for daring to make a claim on any Korean territory, never mind which Korea. All this despite being hosted from a Japanese domain.
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Apr 20, 2014 19:43
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TildeATH posted:I don't understand this one. And to be clear, I really want to understand it. My Korean is real basic, but the first line "Japanese People!" and the second is literally translated as "deter, don't write 3" which makes no sense to me but might be some kind of phonetic/image slang for "3"? And yeah the drawing looks like the finger.
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Apr 20, 2014 19:49
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Koramei posted:Japan brutally occupied the Koreas for decades and a big part of the legitimacy of North Korea's leadership comes from them being freedom fighters that fought against the occupation; you can do the math. Also back in the seventies and eighties North Korea was pretty big on infiltrating Japan and then subverting the nation from within. They did this through kidnapping of Japanese people, so they could teach their spies how to blend into Japanese society. This is not something made up. In the early two-thousands, North Korea pretty much said "Yeah, we kidnapped some dudes and held them against their will. Sorry 'bout that." More information (wikipedia link): here. Note that they also did this to South Koreans.
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Apr 20, 2014 19:50
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VitalSigns posted:Texas will be redeemed! I just want to add that oklahoma split Greer County Texas up in to three counties. gently caress okies forever.
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Apr 20, 2014 22:29
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 Those drawings are great, and a bit scary.
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Apr 21, 2014 01:00
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To be fair, with some of the ancient Korean maps posted in here in the past, these kids never had a chance. Is Korea really that blatantly nationalist in their curriculum? I mean I know most countries are, but usually they are simply "pump up our own stuff and leave out the bad poo poo" rather than "Blatant lies and putting down everyone else?" How far did the Korean empire ever actually stretch? Have they ever made it out of the peninsular? Did they ever get to Japan?
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Apr 21, 2014 01:05
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teacup posted:How far did the Korean empire ever actually stretch? Have they ever made it out of the peninsular? Did they ever get to Japan? They've more or less had their same borders for...ever.
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Apr 21, 2014 01:11
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They had a bunch of Manchuria during their three-kingdoms period back in the first millenium, and there are still a bunch of Koreans in northeastern China, but yeah nothing remotely world spanning. And Korea is massively nationalistic in everything, but they only really put down Japan.
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Apr 21, 2014 01:19
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teacup posted:How far did the Korean empire ever actually stretch? Have they ever made it out of the peninsular? Did they ever get to Japan?  
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Apr 21, 2014 01:21
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No loving idea why Baekje is on the Shandong Peninsula but Gogoryeo was actually pretty close to having those borders. Keep in mind most of that area is barren steppeland.
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Apr 21, 2014 01:23
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Just toss Dokdo on every loving map of Korea.
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Apr 21, 2014 01:25
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Some of the more crazy Korean history maps look like something straight out of someone's Europa Universalis game and I think that is why I love them. Shine on you crazy diamonds.
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Apr 21, 2014 01:30
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teacup posted:To be fair, with some of the ancient Korean maps posted in here in the past, these kids never had a chance. You should definitely read "The Cleanest Race", I think the author is Myers? Very worth the effort if you are at all interested in why much of Korean culture is so drat insular & racist.
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Apr 21, 2014 01:31
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Koramei posted:No loving idea why Baekje is on the Shandong Peninsula but Gogoryeo was actually pretty close to having those borders. It kind of wasn't though, Beijing and its hinterland are pretty well populated I would have thought and this map throws in most of Hebei because Goguryeo was just that awesome I suppose? I can't find any indication they controlled that area. khwarezm fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Apr 21, 2014 |
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Apr 21, 2014 01:39
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Oh yeah you're right. Most of the extra area Gogoryeo actually controlled was just barren steppeland. Beijing wasn't the capital at this point in history though I thought? So it's not quite as egregious as it would be if they'd claimed that 1000 years later.
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Apr 21, 2014 01:50
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Koramei posted:Oh yeah you're right. Most of the extra area Gogoryeo actually controlled was just barren steppeland. Nope. The ruling dynasty that point were the Eastern Jin, whose capital was in the region around where Nanking is today. Still, any non-Han claims of control on the Beijing region at that point are probably spurious at best--that was indeed frontier at that point in China's history, but I've yet to find a map from around the time that shows them not in control of it and the northern lip of the Bohai Sea. That said, there's similarly no evidence China had control of the Manchuria region in that period, so the majority of that claim could indeed be plausible.
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Apr 21, 2014 01:58
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Koramei posted:Beijing wasn't the capital at this point in history though I thought? So it's not quite as egregious as it would be if they'd claimed that 1000 years later. I think there might have been a capital to one of the lovely post Han successor states on the site, but wikipedia tells me it was a few decades before the date on this map. Scratch that, it was from the warring states period hundreds of years earlier, sorry! khwarezm fucked around with this message at 02:07 on Apr 21, 2014 |
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Apr 21, 2014 02:03
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It is. Gogoryeo genuinely controlled a lot of Manchuria; the map isn't completely outlandish in that respect, which was my original point. The "extra bits" they tacked on just happen to be some of the more important parts of China though. Beijing was on the frontier until the Qing Dynasty, but it was still important.
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Apr 21, 2014 02:04
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teacup posted:Is Korea really that blatantly nationalist in their curriculum? I mean I know most countries are, but usually they are simply "pump up our own stuff and leave out the bad poo poo" rather than "Blatant lies and putting down everyone else?" Yes. When I taught in public schools there were multiple days of the year dedicated to making GBS threads on Japan specifically, and plenty of other nationalist bullshit and lies about Korea's history in the books. The English books also were bizarre. When I've studied foreign languages before, the books always included the target culture as well as the language. My German books for example, the character stories were set in Germany, there were German cultural things in all the reading, and just generally they were teaching both the language and about German speaking cultures. Mostly Germany proper, but also Austria and bits about Swiss Germans and whatnot. The public school English books all follow the same pattern in every chapter: The foreigner character (who is inexplicably attending a Korean school but knows nothing; possibly abducted and placed there without his/her knowledge) bumbles into a pile of kimchi or something else Korean. The Korean characters tell the foreigner about it. The foreigner says how wonderful it is and how wonderful Korea is. The new sixth grade books after I left have a whole chapter about how to talk about how great Dokdo is in English. They really hit that hard on Dokdo Day when the kids write a hundred identical essays about pointless rocks. Fun maps for ancient Korea. In Korea these people are also considered nuts, so don't take these seriously. These claims are, as best as I've ever been able to tell, based entirely on the names of other civilizations sounding vaguely like something that appears in an ancient Korean book. So Sumeria was a western Korean civilization because there's a place called Sumiliguk mentioned in a book once and Sumeria sounds kind of like Sumiliguk if you're Korean and also nationalist and crazy.   And the full extent of ancient Korea's conquests:  Highlights are Usanguk = Wessex, what appears to be large parts of the eastern Roman Empire were West Goguryeo, and the Incas because Inca sounds like Ingaguk. Deltasquid posted:Hahahaha how do you even get away with poo poo like this? Imagine the shitstorm if a globe in a French classroom had a sticker on Europe that makes France twice the size of Germany and the UK. Through hatred. I arrived here two weeks before the Sendai earthquake, so one of my earliest Korea experiences was watching elementary school kids celebrating and keeping a running death toll tally on the board and singing songs about hooray everyone in Japan is dead. Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 03:19 on Apr 21, 2014 |
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Apr 21, 2014 03:14
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Grand Fromage posted:
 I can't believe it. It can't be true. It's just so... bad taste. Is it very widespread? I can't believe no blog/commentator picked this up somewhere. I'd like to read more. Or just hear more about it from you.
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Apr 21, 2014 03:48
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I don't understand where this feeling of superiority comes from, especially since they've been conquered and occupied before. How do they (either normal Koreans, or the school system, or the nationalist weirdos) fit Japanese occupation into their narrative?
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Apr 21, 2014 04:42
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CarrKnight posted:
Haha, dude this stuff is super ingrained through out the whole region. Part of it's poo poo that happened in the first half of the 20th Century and part of it is poo poo that happened centuries ago. If it makes you 'feel better' my Japanese American grandparents, who were second generation mind you, were super racist towards Koreans. They could deal well with blacks, Hispanics, Jews, even their only son marrying some white chick instead of a nice Japanese girl, but they would casually drop comments about how stupid and backwards Koreans were into everyday conversations. The only reason the hate the Japanese have for the Koreans and Chinese isn't so open now is because they've never been invaded and occupied in the way the Japanese did to the Koreans and Chinese. Both groups still get treated like poo poo in Japan on the down low though, they're basically a permanent non-citizen underclass.
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Apr 21, 2014 04:43
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Count Roland posted:I don't understand where this feeling of superiority comes from, especially since they've been conquered and occupied before. How do they (either normal Koreans, or the school system, or the nationalist weirdos) fit Japanese occupation into their narrative? A big part of the reason for it is exactly because of this, to counter the national shame at being occupied by Japan (who they very much viewed themselves as equal to for most of their history). National pride helps with their work ethic which is a big part of why they developed so quickly (which is a genuinely amazing accomplishment) blablabla And yeah like Cafel said it's not like their neighbors are so much better; there are just as many loony Japanese theories to make them feel all special and poo poo. The only difference is, they actually did conquer a big chunk of land and so they don't have to do any obvious map-fudging, which makes them much less obvious fodder for this thread. We really love to hate on Korea here; this has come up quite a few times now.
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Apr 21, 2014 04:58
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quote:Haha, dude this stuff is super ingrained through out the whole region. A professor of mine used to tell me about a gift he received in Japan. This must have been early 90s. The gift was a camera of some sort. I don't know the details but something simple to use. The Japanese professor who donated the camera called it a "Korean camera". Not because it was built in Korea, but because it was so simple that even a Korean could use it. But children actively cheering an earthquake? That's a whole different level of hatred. When I lived in Hong Kong i met plenty of foreign students from Korea. They, just like the Chinese, would tell you the usual "it's the government of Japan we have trouble with, not the people". I always felt that avoiding bad taste always took precedence in Asia over racial hatred. But that might be just my European urge to orientalize and formulate stereotypes.
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Apr 21, 2014 05:29
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Kids can be super dumb.
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Apr 21, 2014 05:32
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Japan and Korea have hated each other for centuries, and that animosity is deeply ingrained in each of their cultures. The fact that Japan and South Korea happen to be on the same side due to the politics of the last 50 years doesn't make them friends.
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Apr 21, 2014 05:37
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I think I've heard that Japan opposes Korean reunification more than China at this point, but that could be for reasons other than just blind nationalist hatred.
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Apr 21, 2014 05:50
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made of bees posted:I think I've heard that Japan opposes Korean reunification more than China at this point, but that could be for reasons other than just blind nationalist hatred. I don't know if it's true but I can hypothesize a couple of reasons they might not like the idea. First, they'd have the same concern as South Korea does: Tens of millions of impoverished and questionably-educated North Koreans suddenly need to be integrated and educated and acculturated. Huge mess, nobody wants to bother. Second, once that is successful and the North starts catching up, a unified Korea would be a much bigger local concern than just the South is. More people, more resources, much bigger economy - it all adds up to a rival to Japan. China's already on "the other side" but SK and Japan are ostensibly friends and stuff, so the 'threat' of a unified Korea gaining much more influence would not be something Japan likes at all because they'd have far less ability to dominate in Western-aligned East Asia.
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Apr 21, 2014 07:43
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Mister Adequate posted:First, they'd have the same concern as South Korea does: Tens of millions of impoverished and questionably-educated North Koreans suddenly need to be integrated and educated and acculturated. Huge mess, nobody wants to bother. It's worth noting that this would probably take the better part of a century in the best possible scenario. It's been 25 years since the reunification of Germany and the east is still quite a bit poorer than the west. And West Germany was much wealthier at the time than South Korea is in comparison to North Korea. Nor was East Germany nearly as hosed up as North Korea.
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Apr 21, 2014 08:34
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A unified Korea would not rival Japan. Korea has never not played third fiddle to Japan for as long as there has been a japan. Even if both Koreas had the GDP of South Korea, and then there were 2 more Koreas on top with the same, it wouldn't match Japan. It's not going to be any sort of credible threat to Japan. Your first point is pretty much the entire picture. They already don't like dealing with the refugees from the "good" Korea, can't imagine they'd like the idea of tens of millions of starving rear end north koreans running wild in the area.
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Apr 21, 2014 08:37
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Kassad posted:It's worth noting that this would probably take the better part of a century in the best possible scenario. It's been 25 years since the reunification of Germany and the east is still quite a bit poorer than the west. And West Germany was much wealthier at the time than South Korea is in comparison to North Korea. Nor was East Germany nearly as hosed up as North Korea. On the upside, the infrastructure in East Germany is now significantly better than in the west. Anyway the Germans picked the dumbest way possible: direct integration, 1:1 currency exchange. A much more sensible way would be to slowly integrate the territory and treat it as special zone for a few decades.
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Apr 21, 2014 08:42
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Koramei posted:Kids can be super dumb. Yep. You're ten years old and you've been told for literally your entire life that the Japanese are a race of inherently evil subhumans who do nothing but sit around plotting ways to destroy Korea. So you hear about an earthquake killing thousands of Japanese people and you celebrate it at school with your other dumb friends. You don't have the tools to deal with this at that age, though I have had a vanishingly few students who did. And I do my best to teach that racism is bad. As people grow up they tend to go a few ways. I'd say the majority continue hating Japan conceptually, but when they actually go there or meet a Japanese person they do the classic "oh no not him, he's one of the good ones" thing while maintaining the conceptual hatred. I've had a few Japanese friends here in Korea and it was extremely rare for them to get any poo poo, usually people were nice and whipped out their terrible high school Japanese or whatever. It's hard to hate someone who is normal and sitting at a table with you drinking beer. A minority completely ditch the whole thing and aren't racist about Japanese people or anybody else. Another minority paints Dokdo slogans on their truck and crashes it through the gates of the Japanese embassy. Part of the problem is even when people start changing, a video will go on the internet of a black van riding around an ethnic Korean neighborhood in Tokyo shouting at them, or Shinzo Abe will go take his dick out at Yasukuni, and any progress that's been made gets erased because most people here blame entire national blocks for things rather than individual assholes.
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Apr 21, 2014 13:12
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Modern Day Hercules posted:A unified Korea would not rival Japan. Korea has never not played third fiddle to Japan for as long as there has been a japan. Even if both Koreas had the GDP of South Korea, and then there were 2 more Koreas on top with the same, it wouldn't match Japan. It's not going to be any sort of credible threat to Japan. Your first point is pretty much the entire picture. They already don't like dealing with the refugees from the "good" Korea, can't imagine they'd like the idea of tens of millions of starving rear end north koreans running wild in the area. How many refugees from South Korea are in Japan? I'd imagine you can count them on one hand. Unless you are classifying the Zainichi as refugees.
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Apr 21, 2014 13:14
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Riso posted:On the upside, the infrastructure in East Germany is now significantly better than in the west. Anyway the Germans picked the dumbest way possible: direct integration, 1:1 currency exchange. Perhaps a Sonderbewirtschaftungszone of some sort. 
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Apr 21, 2014 13:25
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Grand Fromage posted:Another minority paints Dokdo slogans on their truck and crashes it through the gates of the Japanese embassy. I used to work for a Midwestern consumer electronics company and we had a South Korean supplier of ceramic antennas. We met with them in person several times, and they supplied us with a bunch of English-language technical documentation and marketing materials for their antennas. On the top right corner of each page, there was a tiny picture of an island with the words "Dokdo is Korean!" written over it. I mean, Jesus, what does this have to do with anything? They didn't know I was half-Japanese, so I gave them hell about it. 
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Apr 21, 2014 14:30
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I remember the South Korean government buying full-page ads in the New York Times after one of their articles referred to the "Sea of Japan" and complaining about it.
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Apr 21, 2014 14:57
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The Monkey Man posted:I remember the South Korean government buying full-page ads in the New York Times after one of their articles referred to the "Sea of Japan" and complaining about it. I love how the Koreans insist on both the Yellow and Japan as "West Sea" and "East Sea" respectively. Good idea getting people on your side by insisting on having your particular geographic orientation as the determining factor.
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Apr 21, 2014 15:14
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