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Wolpertinger posted:It's weird - I know a lot of this stuff logically but somehow when I play a rogue it never actually comes into effect. Using weak units like civic guards/scoundrels etc they tend to like you said get at most 1 kill and then die, leading to wasted time running back to replace them, making me favor other units instead. Gold medal ones are pretty good, but gold medal anythings tend to be pretty good, but they still die from a stiff breeze. I really can't see fault with the civic guards or scoundrels if you are doing 1:1 trades all the time. You shouldn't be losing a irregular with a ranged attack often at all (I really do mean a little bit) very early on unless you're rushing a outpost and it has a support and a archer which happens sometimes (human outposts with a halberdier, archer and priest are rough with 3-4 units). I don't let them get focused when you can use shielded infantry, cavalry and terrain to create line of sight penalties or take the fire themselves. They're not there to replace archers in firepower or frontline troops in resilience in fight with full stacks. My strategy for taking out archers against the AI is pulling their melee units away in such a manner that they're only able to land a single volley or they suffer LoS penalties firing through an allied units or long range penalties. Against independents in gold mines, flowstone quarries, farms and magma forges, it is really easy to funnel melee units and isolate the archers. Two scoundrels can eliminate an archer unit from max distance without losses if one unit is close enough to do a no-penalty xbow shot while the other one pops sprint and reaches either their left or right side then guards. That prevents flanking shots and guarantees they won't die from 2-3 volleys. The archer unit will almost always move away so they can shoot thus giving the sprint'd scoundrel an attack of opportunity and meaning you can xbow them the next turn with the low health scoundrel unit and switch their roles and tie up a second archer or support unit without loss. Goblins with their -5 hp would probably die which why I quite like orcs. I've never used sprint on heroes because I don't commit them to fights they might die, unicorn sires are good enough for me and of course I don' send them in first in a siege fight. I really like sprint on normal units because it's on irregulars who beat support or archer units in melee damage, it doesn't stop them from getting attacks of opportunity while dodging enemy attacks of opportunity. That's one free hit tying up a ranged unit when other infantry units would be out of reach. On a side note as sorceror I don't use apprentices if I can use human/orc priests or storm sisters instead, I can get them sooner without waiting for research wisp then produce apprentice. They still benefit from school of enchantment+teleportation too. I specifically mention early game because a sorceror won't have anything higher than phantasm warriors or combat spells better than fireball or magic fist on top of limited mana and casting points so they rely more on their racial units than the other classes in my opinion. victrix posted:The spell per turn limit in tac combat is kind of annoying me, just because it's pushing less overtly powerful spells into the 'never gonna get used ever' bin. I really wished you could get around the 1 spell per turn limit through research. Obviously the big spells should be restricted. King's Bounty had a elegant mechanic where 'Higher Magic' let you cast additional times per turn as long as the spell doesn't exceed a certain limit. You could cast boons and low damage single target spells 2-3 times or use one powerful spell. It took a lot of investment so I don't think it'd be overpowered if it was available by the time you could cast most of your +25CP battlefield spells.
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Apr 21, 2014 14:50
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If they're worried about hero stacks casting spells into oblivion, they could do a scaling cost for spells, where the cost of spells are multiplied by X, X being the number of spells cast already that round, introducing much more of a diminishing return for stacking spells/buffs, but also allowing people the option should they need to.
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Apr 21, 2014 15:05
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NihilVerumNisiMors posted:I've seen the AI disjunct plenty of my poo poo. I think the last patch even addressed an issue where the AI would dispel your global spells every single time. Unless I'm missing something it seems like the AI can't dispell city buffs it can't see.
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Apr 21, 2014 15:30
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Kanos posted:I can't get my head around how you're supposed to approach playing rogue. I understand the core gimmick(flood map with backstabbing irregulars) and I know how to trigger flank chains in tactical, it's just that the early game feels horrible. Scoundrels aren't the worst combat units but they're so fragile that I despair of getting any of them evolved into assassins and they fall apart the moment you run into anything with a half-decent ranged attack. I've found the Rogue doesn't really come into its own until the mid to late game, barring extensive abuse of the blind spell, early turns you probably have to rely more on racial units than class specific ones. When in doubt, vetted archer/equivelants or vetted cavalry should be your early mainstay, you can use those to project force while you get your assassins up. Assassins are particularly nasty with the movement bonus from the explorer speciality, it makes every battle a backstab party. Late game you'll probably hardly ever need to attack head on with the spells affecting happiness and Band of Brigands, they're powerful enough to snipe pretty much every city an enemy has apart from his main staging grounds.
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Apr 21, 2014 15:42
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NihilVerumNisiMors posted:I've seen the AI disjunct plenty of my poo poo. I think the last patch even addressed an issue where the AI would dispel your global spells every single time. On the battlefield? I've NEVER had it disjunct any of my battlefield spells but I also find the AI isn't too great at spell casting in combat anyway.
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Apr 21, 2014 16:42
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Taear posted:On the battlefield? I've NEVER had it disjunct any of my battlefield spells but I also find the AI isn't too great at spell casting in combat anyway. It doesn't dispel in tactical combat, I never added support. It's on my list of things to do, I'm hoping to get it in for the patch after next. Xoidanor posted:Unless I'm missing something it seems like the AI can't dispell city buffs it can't see. No-one can. That was one of the problems that made the global disjunct spam so bad, you'd have 15 enchantments up, but 14 were on cities, so the AI couldn't disjunct them. So the AI would just disjunct the global spell, over and over again.
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Apr 21, 2014 16:51
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Really? I had a crusader with a couple buffs, weapon kit and instant retaliation I think, and the AI dispelled him.
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Apr 21, 2014 17:03
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Oh god an AI doing proper support skills is going to be deadly.
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Apr 21, 2014 17:05
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 God drat it, this poo poo is retarded. The AI kept spamming the militia spell so those stacks are mostly crap units but it was still enough to make capture impossible, especially since you get 4 vs 3 siege battles AT BEST. It moved away eventually and I was able to just walz into the undefended settlement.  Still lost the mission because Grimdotter capped a city way up north and I couldn't get a force up there quick enough.
NihilVerumNisiMors fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Apr 21, 2014 |
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Apr 21, 2014 17:25
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Yeah I believe the Devs are aware of Raise Militia already, it's really nutty. It should be like, -5% pop and -100 happiness or something like that. -100 pop is maybe the most insignificant cost in the game.
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Apr 21, 2014 17:39
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NihilVerumNisiMors posted:It moved away eventually and I was able to just walz into the undefended settlement. I find it really strange to come to an enemy's big city with a lot of my units and then instead of sticking around fighting they all just run off. I guess they want to protect their throne city but really they're just making their guys much easier to kill since you can now catch them outside of the walls.
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Apr 21, 2014 17:39
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Fledgling Gulps posted:Really? I had a crusader with a couple buffs, weapon kit and instant retaliation I think, and the AI dispelled him. Sorry, I meant the AI doesn't know how to Disjunct global spells in tactical combat (like Chaos Rift and Holy War). It can dispel individual unit enchantments fine.
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Apr 21, 2014 17:54
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You wouldn't happen to have a Guesstimated Window of Arrival on the upcoming patch would you Gerblyn? I have deliberately left that as broad as possible so as not to try and peg you guys to anything exact 
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Apr 21, 2014 19:58
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Gerblyn posted:Sorry, I meant the AI doesn't know how to Disjunct global spells in tactical combat (like Chaos Rift and Holy War). It can dispel individual unit enchantments fine. How does disjunct work in that regard? Does it have a scaling cost based on how powerful the spell being disjuncted is? It seems like the most powerful spells would be next to useless if they can be shutdown for cheaper than they cost to cast.
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Apr 21, 2014 20:01
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Gerblyn posted:Sorry, I meant the AI doesn't know how to Disjunct global spells in tactical combat (like Chaos Rift and Holy War). It can dispel individual unit enchantments fine. Something else I noticed was that the ai never builds the building that lets you forge items (arcane forge I think?). I played a large map that I let go on way too long, and every time I captured a large metropolis, the ai had built every single building but that one. I get that it doesn't forge items, but should'nt it still be building that for the mana per turn? I guess the ai get's enough free gold/mana that it doesn't need to go about building everything like that, but it does kind of call attention to the fact that the ai never forges items, something I probably wouldn't have actually noticed otherwise. LibbyM fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Apr 21, 2014 |
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Apr 21, 2014 20:17
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Captain Oblivious posted:You wouldn't happen to have a Guesstimated Window of Arrival on the upcoming patch would you Gerblyn? I have deliberately left that as broad as possible so as not to try and peg you guys to anything exact Erm, I thought we'd do a beta of it last week actually. I don't know since I've been on holiday since last Tuesday and I've been kind of trying to avoid spending too much time thinking about the game. I guess I'll find out when I go to work on Wednesday. cl_gibcount 9999 posted:How does disjunct work in that regard? Does it have a scaling cost based on how powerful the spell being disjuncted is? It's the same as the base cost for casting the spell (so, the mana cost without being doubled for the leader not being present, etc). LibbyM posted:Something else I noticed was that the ai never builds the building that lets you forge items (arcane forge I think?). I played a large map that I let go on way too long, and every time I captured a large metropolis, the ai had built every single building but that one. I get that it doesn't forge items, but should'nt it still be building that for the mana per turn? Does the item forge provide income? I never realized. It's quite possible that the person who disabled it for the AI never realized either.
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Apr 21, 2014 21:15
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NihilVerumNisiMors posted:
What you could've done here was attack the stacks outside of the city, which would drag adjacent stacks into the battle. If you attacked the stack with three units in it, you'd be fighting 15 units in the field. Then you could attack the manticore stack. After that, there'd only be 8 units left that you'd actually have to siege.
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Apr 21, 2014 21:58
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Mission-critical heroes in the campaign getting lethally poisoned while low on HP makes me wish for some way to manually heal units on the strategic map. Didn't notice it until it was too late and I'd overwritten the save from before my hero had gotten poisoned.
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Apr 21, 2014 22:57
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There's no longer a unit to manually construct roads is there?Gerblyn posted:Does the item forge provide income? I never realized. It's quite possible that the person who disabled it for the AI never realized either. I just looked it up and it wasn't mana like I thought it was, but it does grant 10 research a turn.
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Apr 21, 2014 23:04
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Accidental double post.
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Apr 21, 2014 23:05
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Yeah I really don't like that there are so many spells that are 'combat only' even when it doesn't make sense to be so. Got a heal spell and a unit that's hurt? Tough luck, combat only.LibbyM posted:There's no longer a unit to manually construct roads is there? There is, it's the builder unit.
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Apr 21, 2014 23:08
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Loving the game and desperately want there to be more of it. I'm really wishing there were mutually exclusive city upgrades. Every city feels the same, it would be pretty sweet if you could specialize a city. Something that gives a significant boost to one purpose of the city while locking out similar ones for others, whether that is a giant library or ritual circle or legion barracks or what not. Specializations could use some more abilities as well, they feel extremely minor. I would also love to see a specialization that is the reverse of expander in theme, a turtle/tech spec. I'm sure I'm not alone in this. In this vein, city defense structures would be cool. Dragon lairs already have some, it is kind of weird you can't get anything like that in cities. The indirect culture/rebellion spells of the rogue feels really different and unique compared to other classes. Another class with indirect abilities would be an amazing addition to an expansion, like a psychic class. Necromancer would be my absolute first choice for a new class but a class that has a very different metagame playstyle would go a long way to extending the depth of choices and replayability for sure. I need a time machine so I can skip ahead 6 months or a year and just see what Gerblyn and co. do with patches and dlc!
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Apr 21, 2014 23:22
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Kajeesus posted:What you could've done here was attack the stacks outside of the city, which would drag adjacent stacks into the battle. If you attacked the stack with three units in it, you'd be fighting 15 units in the field. Then you could attack the manticore stack. After that, there'd only be 8 units left that you'd actually have to siege. Every time I've attacked a stack adjacent to a garrisoned city, it gave me a siege battle rather than a field battle. Was I doing something wrong?
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Apr 21, 2014 23:23
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Gwyrgyn Blood posted:Yeah I really don't like that there are so many spells that are 'combat only' even when it doesn't make sense to be so. Got a heal spell and a unit that's hurt? Tough luck, combat only. Yeah this leads to obnoxious combat strategies too, like delaying the final kill(s) to heal all your units to full, or engaging a weak independant to heal your army. Really ugly gamey abuse to work around the system.
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Apr 21, 2014 23:39
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Gort posted:Every time I've attacked a stack adjacent to a garrisoned city, it gave me a siege battle rather than a field battle. Was I doing something wrong? I'm pretty sure that it'll be a siege if you attack any of the stacks that are on the actual 'city' tiles - the tiles surrounding the main central tile. Some of the millitia there are off of that, which means attacking them should get you some open fields battles instead of a siege. You can even use this to snag adjacent stacks that ARE on the central city tile and pull them into a normal fight. NihilVerumNisiMors posted:Managed to beat Eleven 4, now on the next mission where you start underground. Rushed to the surface (Never not rush, it's the only viable way to play...) and most cities are still independent. Interesting. Sadly the AI starts with ~5 full stacks clumped around their throne cities so it's almost impossible to take advantage of the early rush. There's something that in a way is just as important to rush - if you rush to the northeastish corner of the underground area, there's another tunnel leading to the 'depths' level, and it's a small circular area with an absolutely ludicrous amount of +production/mana/gold buildings as well as a heart of the volcano, with a ruined city in the center with a single red dragon and a couple wyverns on top -your starting heroes + chaff you pick up can easily take him, and when you kill him you get four or five red wyvern mount eggs for all your heroes, which gets them all the ability to fly in a pinch, as well as tons of fire resistance. If you rushed a settler over there with your heroes, you can rebuild the city and instant get enough domain to snag all the buildings, leading to a city that can pump out tier 3 units in one turn and tier 4 units in two instantly. It also has a teleporter leading back up to your base very near to the tunnel to the surface. The time limit makes it a pinch to get, but it's capable of mass-producing units and giving shittons of resources, so combined with those wyvern eggs it's pretty handy. The time limit on the whole map is a shame though - it's essentially an uncapturable city, the AI would never know how to look for it, considering you had to tunnel around and then embark across water twice and then go to a deeper underground level - you could abuse the hell out of it with more time, heh. Wolpertinger fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Apr 21, 2014 |
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Apr 21, 2014 23:46
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Gwyrgyn Blood posted:Yeah I really don't like that there are so many spells that are 'combat only' even when it doesn't make sense to be so. Got a heal spell and a unit that's hurt? Tough luck, combat only. There are obviously exceptions where some classes get really really good buffs though. quote:There is, it's the builder unit. Oh. I must have just been blind the last time I was playing and missing the builder. LibbyM fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Apr 22, 2014 |
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Apr 22, 2014 00:12
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Gerblyn posted:It doesn't dispel in tactical combat, I never added support. It's on my list of things to do, I'm hoping to get it in for the patch after next. I have a question about this sort of mechanic. The dreadnaught has the spelljammer structure, which prevents hostile spellcasting in its range. If I drop one near a city, does that mean the city cannot have its enchantments dispelled?
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Apr 22, 2014 00:28
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LibbyM posted:In AoW1, there was 3 categories of spells. Global, combat, and spells that could be used in either situation. (usually things like heals or buffs). They really should have kept it that way I think. As well as making healing make a lot more sense, it made buffs better by letting you keep them on units permanently (for a constant mana upkeep). I find in a lot of situations I never cast my buffs because why would I waste my one spell turn on removing line of sight penalty on my archer, when I could just hailstorm destroy several enemy health bars. I'm actually kind of ok with buffs not being usable on the overworld map, largely because the AI can almost never manage to deal with heavily enchanted units - it doesn't know how to preserve it's own, and it can't effectively fight yours. But having them compete with every other spell type in combat when you're limited to one a turn makes a lot of them really unappealing (along with many other spells).
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Apr 22, 2014 00:30
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Did they patch today? 'cause the AI is using some wonderful new AI hacks in my latest game. Lets hear it for 4x Chain lightnings, with no hero present. That is ~400 Cast points, at turn ~40. On a side note, I want to like Goblins, but the HP penalty just kills them. The cost reduction just doesn't mean poo poo because production doesn't seem to overflow to the next item or let you build multiple units in a turn.
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Apr 22, 2014 00:47
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LibbyM posted:In AoW1, there was 3 categories of spells. Global, combat, and spells that could be used in either situation. (usually things like heals or buffs). They really should have kept it that way I think. As well as making healing make a lot more sense, it made buffs better by letting you keep them on units permanently (for a constant mana upkeep). I find in a lot of situations I never cast my buffs because why would I waste my one spell turn on removing line of sight penalty on my archer, when I could just hailstorm destroy several enemy health bars. Permanent unit buffs was one of my favorite things from Master of Magic. There is nothing more fun than having legions of War Trolls turned into undead by putting Black Channels on them.
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Apr 22, 2014 02:21
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Xae posted:Did they patch today? Chain Lightning only costs 25 mana, so 4x Chain Lightning with the penalty is 200 cp, which isn't terribly unusual for a late game Emperor AI with many cities. Turn 40 sounds awfully early for such shenanigans though. Are you playing a scenario/campaign game or just a random map?
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Apr 22, 2014 02:31
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Ojetor posted:Chain Lightning only costs 25 mana, so 4x Chain Lightning with the penalty is 200 cp, which isn't terribly unusual for a late game Emperor AI with many cities. Turn 40 sounds awfully early for such shenanigans though. Are you playing a scenario/campaign game or just a random map? I am pretty sure there is some bug with AI casting right now. Warlord NPCs, even at Squire AI, are chain spamming Militia and generating multiple stacks per turn.
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Apr 22, 2014 03:39
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In multiplayer, if someone gets disconnected in tactical combat the game tells you they disconnected but you can never leave combat (or even end your turn). This is probably not something that happens often, but I figured I should mention it Geb.
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Apr 22, 2014 04:34
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Wolpertinger posted:There's something that in a way is just as important to rush - if you rush to the northeastish corner of the underground area, there's another tunnel leading to the 'depths' level, and it's a small circular area with an absolutely ludicrous amount of +production/mana/gold buildings as well as a heart of the volcano, with a ruined city in the center with a single red dragon and a couple wyverns on top -your starting heroes + chaff you pick up can easily take him, and when you kill him you get four or five red wyvern mount eggs for all your heroes, which gets them all the ability to fly in a pinch, as well as tons of fire resistance. I found that place but my heroes certainly weren't able to take the dragon. It would focus one of them down and I'd lose the entire mission, so I ignored it. Gort posted:Every time I've attacked a stack adjacent to a garrisoned city, it gave me a siege battle rather than a field battle. Was I doing something wrong? Me too. I could've dealt with militia on an open field but not when they're behind walls.
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Apr 22, 2014 05:40
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NihilVerumNisiMors posted:I found that place but my heroes certainly weren't able to take the dragon. It would focus one of them down and I'd lose the entire mission, so I ignored it. By that point there was a whole lotta items that made me fire immune if I stacked up the resists on people to ignore his inevitable fire breath when you're closing into range, then wiping off like a quarter of his health with a musket shot from the dreadnought leader (Who can also die safely) helps out a lot, followed by a significant (if not quite as huge) amount of damage with the ranged attacks of the other heroes, and finally for sundren who can run in and melee for a ludicrous amount of retaliation-free damage with Assassin Strike to nearly finish him off. With the rest of your units, unload all your ranged attacks then flank him repeatedly and you can take him down after he only gets one round to attack, maybe, which is OK as long as he doesn't get the whole three attacks in at once on a hero, and you can use your chaff units to take up all his action points wasting them on retaliation. The wyverns are pretty much pushovers once he folds in one round. Wolpertinger fucked around with this message at 07:04 on Apr 22, 2014 |
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Apr 22, 2014 07:02
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OwlFancier posted:The dreadnaught has the spelljammer structure, which prevents hostile spellcasting in its range. No, but that's a good idea. Carnalfex posted:In multiplayer, if someone gets disconnected in tactical combat the game tells you they disconnected but you can never leave combat (or even end your turn). This is probably not something that happens often, but I figured I should mention it Geb. OK, I'll get someone to look into it. Thanks! Gort posted:Every time I've attacked a stack adjacent to a garrisoned city, it gave me a siege battle rather than a field battle. Was I doing something wrong? No, but if you attack a stack adjacent to a stack that's adjacent to a city, you can pull some of those defenders away from the walls. For example: If you were to attack the 3 units on the gold mine, then the 2 stacks to the north of it would join in. So you could take out 6 of the city's defenders in open field. Same if you attacked the Manticore Rider or Monster Hunter in the west. The AI isn't very good at making sure all the city defenders actually stay in the city... Xae posted:I am pretty sure there is some bug with AI casting right now. That's really strange. Do you have a save game where this happens? victrix posted:But having them compete with every other spell type in combat when you're limited to one a turn makes a lot of them really unappealing (along with many other spells). An awful lot of people have been saying this. Originally we set one spell per turn because it was much easier to explain and understand, while setting limits per spell type is much less intuitive. I guess we should probably look into it again though...
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Apr 22, 2014 07:18
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Is Mana as a stockpilable economic resource necessary? The income part of it is fine, as a sort of "Here is how much you can use to maintain summons and enchantments", but the number to the left of your fat rear end +200 only ever seems to go up. Flinging spells around is limited by your hero's casting power anyway, and by the time your Summon Horned God is ready you've already stockpiled the cost plus some. Sure, you can drop like 4k someone to get them to open borders, but it's not really any sort of concession - You're not out anything since you tend to generate a lot more than you can spend in a turn, and honestly they don't really benefit from it either due to the limitation of casting power. Maybe I'm horrible at the game and play too slow, or maybe the One True Way is city founding off; It just seems like it's not useful in the same way gold is. Am I wrong? Does 101,549 (+323) serve a purpose?
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Apr 22, 2014 08:09
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Some games (including the best rts of all time, Kohan) have done some resources as a static 'supply' instead of an accumulating resource. That is, you might have +100 mana, and then each spell you upkeep would reduce that number by x. But doing that would require moving combat spells and others to a cast time/cooldown system (instead of a mana cost/casting pool system), which would uh... basically be reworking the entire magic system, probably too big of an ask. Tinkering with how spells can be cast in combat could hopefully be done though...
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Apr 22, 2014 09:08
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The Hasty Plunder upgrade from destruction doesn't seem to work (at least in multiplayer). The hasty plunder option shows up in a conquered city, but upon choosing it you get the ARE YOU SURE? message....and when you say yes, it starts the normal plunder timer of X turns. Granted, building/migrating/plundering/etc cities taking almost no time anyway, but the only thing that upgrade is supposed to do is make plunder instant.
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Apr 22, 2014 10:35
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EvilDrWong posted:Is Mana as a stockpilable economic resource necessary? The income part of it is fine, as a sort of "Here is how much you can use to maintain summons and enchantments", but the number to the left of your fat rear end +200 only ever seems to go up. Flinging spells around is limited by your hero's casting power anyway, and by the time your Summon Horned God is ready you've already stockpiled the cost plus some. Sure, you can drop like 4k someone to get them to open borders, but it's not really any sort of concession - You're not out anything since you tend to generate a lot more than you can spend in a turn, and honestly they don't really benefit from it either due to the limitation of casting power. Mana as a stockpile is really useful for when you want to summon a stack of eldritch horrors plus some badass global enchantments, but don't have the mana income to sustain it all for more than a couple of rounds. I guess the choice between spending it all and stockpiling it would be more interesting if there were more options for crippling an enemy's economy. There's so much gold, mana and knowledge income coming directly from city structures that a complete economy headshot basically requires conquering all their major cities anyway, in addition to locking down resources with units (question: are concealed/invisible units revealed to an enemy when locking down a resource node in the enemy's domain?). Maybe it would be better if city structures mostly increased existing income from resource nodes in the domain by a percentage, rather than giving a flat bonus. That might also provide more incentive for specializing cities. No reason to build gold-boosting structures in a city with no gold resources in its domain, or mana-boosting structures with no nearby mana sources. Slashrat fucked around with this message at 12:29 on Apr 22, 2014 |
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Apr 22, 2014 12:24
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