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quote:HEY! What the crap, people, I tell you to keep posting pictures of your dogs and you all fall off the face of the earth? As you wish! Here's Delco this morning. He spent a little over 3 weeks in the shelter and only gained 3 ounces while he was there. He's put on just over five pounds since we brought him home. Had to get a trainer to help with his issues; he's coming around.  So, is getting the dog stacked of any use whatsoever aside from in the show ring?
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Apr 22, 2014 14:14
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Not really, unless you'd just like to see how your dog looks conformation-wise for funsies. He's handsome. What kind of issues does he have? Edit: vvv Well that's basically what I meant.  Skizzles fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Apr 23, 2014 |
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Apr 22, 2014 15:19
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Stacking can give you an idea about structure, not just for conformation.
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Apr 22, 2014 15:41
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Waking up German Shepherds and Taking their Pictures ~ an art project by Tits Mo  Maggie and Gretchen 
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Apr 22, 2014 16:21
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Skizzles posted:Not really, unless you'd just like to see how your dog looks conformation-wise for funsies. He's handsome. What kind of issues does he have? Fear aggression. Also, now that he sniffed another dog who promptly bit him on the nose and drew blood, fear of other dogs.  Here's his squirrel madness. 
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Apr 22, 2014 17:28
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Queen Elizatits posted:
Wow, Mo and the dog in the foreground look almost the same!
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Apr 22, 2014 17:29
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Dust Radio posted:Wow, Mo and the dog in the foreground look almost the same! Maggie is Mo's mom  I think this is the thread about when got them when we got them but I don't have archives. The tl:dr is that we we driving home from San Diego through the mountain area in the desert and just when we were rounding a curve we saw small something bounce off the front of an SUV that was going about 80mph and another dog running into the highway. The small something was Mo and Maggie was trying to get him off the road. I don't understand how it was possible but aside from road rash, losing most of the teeth on one side of his head, spraining a front leg, and going into shock he was okay. Actually that sounds like a lot of things but since he was only about 10 weeks at the time I don't understand how he wasn't killed.They do look very similar. He's about 20lbs bigger than her now but I still confuse them. Old picture 
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Apr 22, 2014 17:49
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a life less posted:Stacking can give you an idea about structure, not just for conformation. Eh, he's a mix and I wouldn't dream of breeding with all the extra dogs there are out there (so he's neutered), so I don't see the benefit of an idea about his structure, either.
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Apr 22, 2014 18:06
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Dust Radio posted:Eh, he's a mix and I wouldn't dream of breeding with all the extra dogs there are out there (so he's neutered), so I don't see the benefit of an idea about his structure, either. Analysing structure is cool. It can give you an idea of how a dog moves and how each part of its body is used. It's not solely a "is this dog worthy to breed?" thing but a "will this dog's body give out with use?" thing. Ideally you want a dog where all its bits and pieces balance the others out. If your dog has poor structure, you'll know to modify activities to meet its needs and keep a better eye out for pain and discomfort. Here's a page I just googled which should explain things better than I can. http://misteldobermans.com/doberman_gait.htm From the photo above, he looks well balanced.
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Apr 22, 2014 18:49
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Pardon the crooked horizon
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Apr 22, 2014 21:18
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adventure in the sandbox posted:Pardon the crooked horizon ...are we in the End Times? (Very cool picture.) Thanks for bringing the goods, guys!  I gotta get my fix somehow.
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Apr 22, 2014 22:09
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Dust Radio posted:Fear aggression. Also, now that he sniffed another dog who promptly bit him on the nose and drew blood, fear of other dogs. Is your trainer recommending the prong collar for that, or was that your choice? Either way, I'd check out the training megathread. Tons of great info in there.
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Apr 23, 2014 02:55
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Skizzles posted:Is your trainer recommending the prong collar for that, or was that your choice? Either way, I'd check out the training megathread. Tons of great info in there. We're using the prong collar under the trainer's direction. He's doing amazingly well and is like a different dog now. Group training with him begins on Monday. Once we get him properly socialized, he's going to be a helluva dog.
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Apr 23, 2014 03:35
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Dust Radio posted:We're using the prong collar under the trainer's direction. He's doing amazingly well and is like a different dog now. Group training with him begins on Monday. Once we get him properly socialized, he's going to be a helluva dog. I'm curious how they have you working with the pinch with your dog's particular issues. I mean, if your dog is fearful, and you're using a pinch/correction in situations where your dog is in proximity to what it's scared of, I would be afraid of masking the dog's behavior and inadvertently making things worse. You run the risk of: "There's that Scary Thing, I'd better [insert undesirable behavior here]!" *Dog either gets a correction, or hits the end of the leash, having him give HIMSELF a correction* *Dog not only equates correction with the behavior, but also with the Scary Thing* "Oh look, there's that Scary Thing! I get hurt when it comes close. I'd better get rid of it!" A lot of time the training in this fashion SEEMS like it's working, because the undesirable behaviors ARE going away, but the stress level of the dog is at best staying the same, at worst getting worse, but the dog is unable to show you signs of it. This mean that you could possibly have "good results" for YEARS only to have the dog revert or get worse once the stress becomes too much. With other methods of training, you're changing the dog's metal state around what it's afraid of, so it learns to calm down. You need to be sure that the training you're doing is incorporating this, or you'll have problems down the road. That isn't to say that pinches can't necessarily be used "correctly", but I feel that if you are only just now starting obedience classes, that your dog wouldn't have the training under his belt for it to work. This is the only reason this red flag has been raised. The "correct" way to use a correction is if the dog absolutely knows what it's supposed to do in a situation, but it's so distracted that it needs a gentle tap on the shoulder to bring the focus back. The other thing, is that the prong is like the absolute last resort with this. For most dogs, simply saying the dog's name or giving a very soft leash tug on a flat leash are enough to bring the focus back. Prongs (used properly) are generally saved for dogs that are working in sports who are SO high in drive that they barely even feel the pinch when it's on. If you're working on PROBLEM issues with your dog that high in drive, you're working in too close of a proximity to what your dog is afraid of/reacting to. Basically, in such an instance, you're setting up the dog for failure, so you can correct the behavior, instead of rewarding good behavior before the dog has a chance to "misbehave". Also, here's a great article about stress levels in dogs and different training methods being used. Found this the other day, and although for a lot of people it seems like it would naturally end up with the results they found, now there's a (small) study backing it up. It's pretty long, so here's the part where they get to the actual results: quote:There were 26 dogs trained using discipline-based procedures and 24 using positive training. The researchers were not looking at actual learning performance, but rather were measuring the amount of stress that dogs appeared to show when performing their learned exercises. They used easily observable behaviors associated with stress, such as mouth licking, yawning, scratching, sniffing, shivering, whining, low posture, attempts to run away, and whether or not the dog avoided making eye contact with their handler. So, if you look at that 65% of discipline-based dogs showing stress signals, that DOES mean that 45% were totally fine. However, that's a MUCH higher risk factor than the 8% of the positive/reward based dogs. THIS is why the red flag comes up when you see a pinch on a dog that has fear aggression. Just food for thought! Like Skiz said, you can check out the training megathread for more explanation as to these different methods, they're all laid out nicely in the first few posts. I could be completely wrong in my assumptions, and it's up to you to decide if you stand behind the trainer you're working with. I'll shut up now so we can get to more GSD pictures! 
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Apr 23, 2014 11:49
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I appreciate the advice, thanks. Our trainer is experienced and deals mostly with fear aggressive dogs, especially GSDs, with a very high success rate, so we're going to stick with her methods for now. The group training isn't for obedience, it's for socialization. Our area is mostly rural, so not teeming with dog parks and endless socialization opportunities.
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Apr 23, 2014 16:15
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Experienced means next to nothing. There are trainers out there that have decades of experience using outdated, unnecessary methods that carry the risk of worsening issues (especially aggression). Dog training is not a regulated field. There are no requirements or education needed to become one. Certifications are nice, but you have to know which ones to look for (some are worthless). The problem with prong collars and other correction-based tools/techniques is they typically just suppress the behavior as opposed to addressing the underlying cause. Once the "problem" behavior is suppressed people think, "wow this works!" because they don't know how to read body language and tell their dog is actually still stressed or even shut down. They've just learned they get punished for reacting, so the behavior goes away, but not the feeling. You're only really solving your problem with the behavior, not resolving the dog's problem and changing his feelings toward the trigger. I know prongs can be effective and some dogs do fine on them. But like Wolfenstein said, that's mostly for high drive obedience/sports (and even then they're often unnecessary). Using it for aggression is REALLY risky and definitely not the best tool for the job. I would look into some stuff on counter-conditioning and desensitization. Maybe check out BAT too.
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Apr 23, 2014 16:29
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Skizzles posted:Experienced means next to nothing. There are trainers out there that have decades of experience using outdated, unnecessary methods that carry the risk of worsening issues (especially aggression). Dog training is not a regulated field. There are no requirements or education needed to become one. Certifications are nice, but you have to know which ones to look for (some are worthless). I'm aware of PI's opinion on prong collars. Thanks again!
Dust Radio fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Apr 23, 2014 |
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Apr 23, 2014 16:33
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The idea that correction-based training is detrimental to dogs isn't just PI hivemind poo poo, it's well backed by research. In addition to what Skizzles and Wolfenstein said about stress levels, research indicates that correction-based training actually increases aggressive behaviour in the long run (see here,here,here, here, and here for a handful of studies on the subject). The take away from those studies can be summed up by information found in the first link: quote:Owners using a combination of you're welcome to train your dog in any manner you choose, however you should be aware that it's very likely that your current method is actually going to result in your dog becoming more aggressive and fearful rather than producing a long-term positive changes in his behaviour. Triangulum fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Apr 23, 2014 |
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Apr 23, 2014 19:29
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Triangulum posted:The idea that correction-based training is detrimental to dogs isn't just PI hivemind poo poo, it's well backed by research. In addition to what Skizzles and Wolfenstein said about stress levels, research indicates that correction-based training actually increases aggressive behaviour in the long run (see here,here,here, here, and here for a handful of studies on the subject). Ok, look. The fact that PI is aware that I utilize a prong collar during training does not mean that you necessarily have any idea exactly how I'm training my dog, nor what combination of methods I am using under the guidance of my trainer. I get it, you think it's awful that the prong collar has ever touched my dog's neck. Point taken graciously. No disrespect meant whatsoever, as I have already thanked the previous posters for their advice and information, but I'm on this thread to see GSDs and post photos (as requested), so if everyone from here on out would kindly shut the gently caress up about how you think I'm training my dog, I'd appreciate it. I haven't detailed it because I haven't come to this thread seeking help with or advice about my dog's issues, nor seeking justification for how I'm doing it. Let it go. Please and thanks.
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Apr 23, 2014 19:55
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Dust Radio posted:Ok, look. PI gets tense sometimes I have used prongs on both my dogs to little detriment. I cannot speak for their internal level of stress or how things will go years down the road, but I am cautious and careful and things are fine for me. Choose your trainer carefully, and if you have already done so - great!
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Apr 23, 2014 21:23
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Dust Radio posted:I'm aware of PI's opinion on prong collars. Thanks again! To be fair, I even detailed the right way they're supposed to be used, and only talked about the downsides to them that you might not have researched. I even said that maybe you're using them in that proper way, only that from what you'd stated, it made me feel obligated to pass along a little info to you. Like adventure in the sandbox said, she uses prongs on her dogs, and it's not a big deal because she's using them correctly. Never given her poo poo for it. I've just seen dogs (first hand) trained in ways that make things worse down the road, and if I can ever maybe help that not happen, I'm going to say something. 
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Apr 23, 2014 21:49
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WolfensteinBag posted:To be fair, I even detailed the right way they're supposed to be used, and only talked about the downsides to them that you might not have researched. I even said that maybe you're using them in that proper way, only that from what you'd stated, it made me feel obligated to pass along a little info to you. Like adventure in the sandbox said, she uses prongs on her dogs, and it's not a big deal because she's using them correctly. Never given her poo poo for it. I've just seen dogs (first hand) trained in ways that make things worse down the road, and if I can ever maybe help that not happen, I'm going to say something. I took zero issue with your post, WB, that's why I thanked you. My thanks were genuine, and I appreciated the advice. It was the harping based on assumptions that made me feel stabby.edit:I speel gud. Dust Radio fucked around with this message at 15:26 on Apr 24, 2014 |
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Apr 23, 2014 22:03
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Out of curiosity then, I'd like to know the rest of the training plan your trainer has you use. How exactly does your dog's fear aggression manifest (how does he react to other dogs, does he need a lot of distance, etc.)? How precisely is the prong used? What are you instructed to do when your dog sees another dog and reacts? When he doesn't react? Legitimately curious since I've assisted many trainers, but never one that uses prongs.
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Apr 24, 2014 00:15
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Let's just get back to pics; we'll save the thread derail for another day. Delco wants a toy: 
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Apr 24, 2014 13:05
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Queen Elizatits posted:I don't understand how it was possible but aside from road rash, losing most of the teeth on one side of his head, spraining a front leg, and going into shock he was okay. Actually that sounds like a lot of things but since he was only about 10 weeks at the time I don't understand how he wasn't killed. That was the best thread though, thanks for starting it. It was both cute and sad to see some of their feral habits persist into your home, like when you were talking about Maggie hoarding food and eating half-meals just to make sure Mo had enough to eat. Has she mostly gotten over that sort of thing by now?
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Apr 24, 2014 20:55
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I guess he's growing into his ears. I'm gonna have to get some sturdier toys for this guy. He's destroyed drat near every toy he's gotten.
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May 24, 2014 14:01
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I posted this on PIFB the other day, almost forgot about this thread  Here is shelby with Anke, our nosework instructor. A year ago when we first started nosework Shelby almost got Anke good a couple times, and looking at her funny or animated body language would set her off. The last few weeks Shelby has been looking pretty comfortable with Anke so this week we brought the basket muzzle and handed the leash over to her. Sometimes she still gets set off during a search sometimes, but she almost instantly recovers and gets back to searching. Nosework is great for reactive dogs. Half of it is probably just getting the exposure and socialization with people who understand and can help run interference. its a pain int he rear end to give treats to a dog in one of those wire muzzles. Well maybe not a really smart dog. You have to stick it in there from the side, but Shelby keeps trying to grab it as if she didn't have the muzzle on.
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Jun 7, 2014 23:08
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Stregone posted:I posted this on PIFB the other day, almost forgot about this thread  That is a cute rear end doggie. I have no memory, is she a GSD? I can never remember if GSDs can come without the saddleback. She looks like the military police dog next door who is a malinois. Coolguye posted:I had been lurking that thread since the beginning and I didn't realize he'd lost a lot of his teeth. That's basically the only way those injuries were fortunate, I suppose, since at 10 weeks they would've been milk-teeth that were going to get scuttled anyway. I am sorry for not answering you Coolguye I wasn't ignoring I promise I missed this post, if you are still reading Maggie is still a hoarder but at least she doesn't feed bugs to Mo anyway. I still have to feed them separately though because if he looks at her food she leaves it for him. Here they are not being bad and certainly not caught trying to rip apart that blanket 
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Jun 8, 2014 01:56
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Queen Elizatits posted:
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Jun 8, 2014 16:02
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Queen Elizatits posted:
I love your dogs.
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Jun 8, 2014 21:23
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From that first link: ----------------- In this study, attendance at any type of training class did not significantly affect the total number of undesirable behaviors shown by dogs. However, attendance at puppy socialization classes was associated with reduced reaction to dogs from outside the household (c2 5 6.843, df 5 1, P , 0.01). An association was also found between owners doing informal training at home and not attending any training classes, with an increased aggression score (Mann-Whitney U, z 5 21.974, P , 0.05). Interestingly, the control problem score did not appear to be affected by attendance at any type of training class. ------------------- In this self selecting group of mostly female respondents doing ANY training didn't do any good and doing it yourself without going to a class made your dog worse. Interesting Funnily enough at our schutzhund club there is one female handler who only uses positive training techniques. Her dog shows the same control and agression issues noted in that study. Bit annoying really, 4 of us can train our own dogs off leash on the field at once but she needs it all to herself. We've adapted by taking a coffee break while she's working.  But on the topic of wake up pics 
Rapulum_Dei fucked around with this message at 07:23 on Jun 13, 2014 |
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Jun 12, 2014 23:01
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Could just be she's a poo poo trainer and/or got a dog from a poo poo breeder.
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Jun 14, 2014 05:26
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Just adopted this big, beautiful bastard a couple of weeks ago from a friend of the family. (She didn't have enough time to spend with him, realized that wasn't fair.)  I'm still amazed at how intelligent he is. When we picked him up, he wasn't house trained, didn't know any more commands than "Sit" and "Down" (which he would use interchangeably at first). Now, he comes up to me and noses my arm when he needs to go potty, sits down when I grab his leash for his walk, knows the difference between "sit" and "down," and learned "stay" in just a few hours. He's 2 years old, loves to wrestle or follow me anywhere, isn't shy around people or dogs but not aggressive in any sense, either. Scared of thunderstorms, though! He has a hard time going to sleep during one of those unless I have my hand on his paw or:  this is going on. We've gone from being scared of car rides, since they were only to go to the vet, to being excited about the whole thing and getting in the car without having to be lifted into the back.
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Jun 14, 2014 18:22
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RedContraGuy posted:Scared of thunderstorms, though! Have you tried a thundershirt?
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Jun 14, 2014 18:25
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I haven't, no. I'm building his confidence up about them, though. When he signals that he needs the bathroom during a storm, I'll open the door and he'll just freeze. So I walk right out into it and he, of course, follows. He's getting better about it since we have had nothing but for the past several days.
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Jun 14, 2014 18:28
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Over the weekend I shot two days of photography for a nosework trial my instructor put on up in Baltimore. It was NW2 and NW3. After seeing everything that goes into it I am pretty sure Shelby can handle it. I mean, we do travel classes inside of places like Tractor Supply and while she can be on edge, she still searches. An actual trial is a breeze in comparison to that, as far as distractions and possible triggers are concerned.
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Jun 16, 2014 15:55
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As Mo has gotten older I am really starting to understand why people like GSDs so much. The dog to the left is 19 years and has canine cognitive dysfunction. Mo follows him everywhere, washes his face, but doesn't bother him overly. It's very sweet and not something I would have expected from the terror a year ago.
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Jun 18, 2014 18:12
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MoMo is seriously too drat adorable for something that sheer size. Give 'im a scritchie from me, please Also, I thought at first you were just being clever about 'dumb old dog' but after a google.. poor thing, I had no idea that could happen to a dog  MoMo's a sweetie for looking after him.
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Jun 22, 2014 14:30
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Drake_263 posted:MoMo is seriously too drat adorable for something that sheer size. Give 'im a scritchie from me, please Yeah CCD was only recently even recognized by the American veterinary Association within the past couple of years. There is a lot more research that has been done in the UK and some of it is quite promising. There are a few couple of nutritional supplements that some dogs respond well to my understanding is that they work to increase blood flow to the brain. I couldn't find any for sale in the US and I've ordered one from the UK that king King is actually seemingly responding well to. He used to get what I could only describe as panic attacks the vet has him on a high dose of Xanax but ideally I would like to lower the dose. Anyway I've started him on Senilife along with the Xanax and he hasn't had an attack since. He's actually playing with toys again too which is amazing
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Jun 22, 2014 19:45
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 This puppy was boarding at the daycare where I work...look at how loving cute he is . He spent most of yesterday laying in my lap or trying to play with the big dogs (also loving adorable). I've sworn myself never to get a puppy again after having my current GSD as a pup, but this little fucker's done a lot to convince me otherwise.
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Jun 22, 2014 20:03
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