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BBJoey posted:I think I am a lost cause because I think that a Papers Please-esque late-war military logistics/procurement sim would be amazing. Every morning you receive a report on what factories were destroyed in the latest raid and what there are shortages of. You need to somehow find enough old military surplus weapons to equip the growing volkssturm while at the same time trying to keep the regular forces of the Wehrmacht in something approaching good supply. Every now and then a member of the Nazi brass will wander in and demand funding and material support for his latest wunderwaffe that's totally going to turn the war around. At the same time you have to decide what to do as the Soviets close in on Berlin; will you attempt to escape with your family to British or American forces, or hold firm in the belief that things will turn around? If you choose to escape, when? Too early and the Germans will be too organised to slip past; too late and you may find yourself leaving Berlin to run straight into a Soviet soldier. Do you attempt to leak documents to the Allies in an attempt to curry favour and speed their advance through Germany, or are you too afraid that you'll be discovered? I would play it
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Apr 22, 2014 11:52
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BBJoey posted:I wonder what features ruined EU4 for him. Maybe it was the removal of the fantastic EU3 trade system, wherein you found the most profitable CoT and clicked a bar until it turned green? Or perhaps the loss of the horde system, lauded for bringing a historical use for colonists to landlocked, eastern-European countries. Or maybe he pines for the days where you had to manually calculate your yearly income and compare that to your yearly loss in order to figure out whether you were going to go bankrupt before the year's end. Darkrenown, when you removed these critical features, you must have known that you were gutting the very heart of Europa Universalis. It's, uh, "monarch mana" people generally get mad about. That's the term I see used. And if you ask them why they'll list you half a dozen reasons, but for a lot of these guys the root of it is that it's an extremely gamist mechanic and the experience they were looking for was essentially simulationist. Like, these guys who want division commanders but don't actually want to have anything to do with them- why? Why do they want the game to waste valuable resources modelling something they're just going to ignore? Because they know that division commanders were a thing in the real war, and for them the very fact that division commanders exist in the game and have some effect enhance the experience for these people because it makes the simulation more complete- makes the illusion seem more real. And- I don't think that's necessarily invalid? If these people genuinely find the game diminshed by the lack of these things, I don't think we should be telling them that they're full of poo poo and that they are actually enjoying themselves when they think they're not- much as Sperg McGrog has no call to dictate to us that we are not in fact having fun playing EUIV.
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Apr 22, 2014 12:04
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I'm very glad they're reducing the amount of meaningless busywork there is to do. I also hated wrestling with the OOB and assigning leaders for an hour every time I started a game. It didn't make a great deal of historical sense either. You had countries like Germany with a mostly-fine command structure, then you had clusterfucks like Nationalist China where Chiang Kai-Shek was commanding every division personally. Did it matter? No, because you immediately reorganised both armies into the same optimal OOB and command structure. I'm very pleased to hear that you're moving in this direction.
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Apr 22, 2014 12:17
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Darkrenown posted:Don't tempt me. I could be angrily exclaiming that it is too micro-intensive to reload and that we need to cut bullets... Wait I thought this was what HOI4 was anyway since everything else was automated? 
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Apr 22, 2014 12:46
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Autonomous Monster posted:It's, uh, "monarch mana" people generally get mad about. That's the term I see used. And if you ask them why they'll list you half a dozen reasons, but for a lot of these guys the root of it is that it's an extremely gamist mechanic and the experience they were looking for was essentially simulationist. quote:And- I don't think that's necessarily invalid? If these people genuinely find the game diminshed by the lack of these things, I don't think we should be telling them that they're full of poo poo and that they are actually enjoying themselves when they think they're not- much as Sperg McGrog has no call to dictate to us that we are not in fact having fun playing EUIV.
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Apr 22, 2014 13:30
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BBJoey posted:I think I am a lost cause because I think that a Papers Please-esque late-war military logistics/procurement sim would be amazing... Panzers Please confirmed for a Q4 2014 release. I was one of those spergs who thought 'But if all my major generals are gone, how will I train Rommel and Guderan and Manstein up to high level?', but then I realized that I was a moron and there'd never been a pressing need as Germany to replace all the level 4 or 5 army and corps commanders I started out with. I think this will be a change that peple get over very quickly once they get into the game, though I expect a new wave of Paradox forumites asking why Rommel isn't in the game from the beginning.
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Apr 22, 2014 16:00
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I did enjoy the element of seeing leaders appear as major generals in 1939-40, getting a ton of experience in Poland and France, then being my Panzer Corps commanders in Barbarossa. But that was literally the only bit that was fun. Actually experience and leader skill is something I've thought was always a bit understated in HOI - you never really got the sense that veteran troops had a particular advantage over newly raised ones.
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Apr 22, 2014 16:10
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The simple fix to "but Rommel" is to just have him spawn as a lieutenant general on the day he was promoted to that rank.
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Apr 22, 2014 16:11
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dublish posted:Panzers Please confirmed for a Q4 2014 release. Rommel is in though :P
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Apr 22, 2014 16:24
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Darkrenown personally ruined EU4, he personally tore my ability to feel human.
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Apr 22, 2014 16:30
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I know it's sort of passe to mention this at this point, but literally everyone complaining is complaining about losing their favorite German generals. Like, I haven't seen a single post bemoaning an American or British or Soviet general. EDIT: OK, found one: quote:What if I wanted to role-play a saner Japanese Empire and make Tadamichi Kuribayashi a big part of the High Command, but I can't since he never commanded anything bigger than a division in real life? Sorry, let me revise my statement. Literally everyone complaining is complaining about losing their favorite Axis generals. Patter Song fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Apr 22, 2014 |
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Apr 22, 2014 16:51
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Patter Song posted:I know it's sort of passe to mention this at this point, but literally everyone complaining is complaining about losing their favorite German generals. Like, I haven't seen a single post bemoaning an American or British or Soviet general. All of the good Allied generals were already Lt Gens or better 
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Apr 22, 2014 17:02
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Gort posted:The simple fix to "but Rommel" is to just have him spawn as a lieutenant general on the day he was promoted to that rank. Isn't that how he works in DH?
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Apr 22, 2014 17:08
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Moving forward, will we ever see a HoI bring in the capacity to generate additional generic Generals/Politicians/Techteams to fill offices as a country expands? A port of tradition mechanics, with biases applied by your country's government type, ideology, military doctrine and such feels like it would really improve the flexibility and replay value of the game.
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Apr 22, 2014 17:18
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Yes.
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Apr 22, 2014 17:29
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Nice.
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Apr 22, 2014 17:31
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lullelulle posted:Isn't that how he works in DH? Nah, Darkest Hour still has Major Generals, it just allows them to command up to three divisions without penalty.
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Apr 22, 2014 17:35
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Darkrenown posted:Yes. But will we be able to institute popular Paradox forums posters as leaders/ministers in our war cabinets? Especially if they submit sepia'd, fedora'd photos of themselves.
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Apr 22, 2014 18:17
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No.
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Apr 22, 2014 19:18
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Patter Song posted:I know it's sort of passe to mention this at this point, but literally everyone complaining is complaining about losing their favorite German generals. Like, I haven't seen a single post bemoaning an American or British or Soviet general. But but.. My Zhukov!
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Apr 22, 2014 19:26
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Canceling my pre-order right this minute.
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Apr 22, 2014 19:30
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Well, ok, we can have that Prussian guy that re-united Germany, but that's it!
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Apr 22, 2014 19:32
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Does the sound of countless tears falling from the ~crushed dreams~ of Rommel supporters motivate you to continue working on HoI?
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Apr 22, 2014 19:35
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Patter Song posted:Sorry, let me revise my statement. Literally everyone complaining is complaining about losing their favorite Axis generals. Roosevelt didn't have to replace half his generals every time an operation went bad and he threw a hissy.
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Apr 22, 2014 19:45
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So...I've always been a bit uncomfortable around people who are very enthusiastic about the German military in the Second World War, which is a rather shockingly large number of people who are overrepresented on map games communities. It's like the id of your average strategy gamer longs to see maps of Europe covered by the word GERMANY in all capital letters in massive font, and some gamers are all id.
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Apr 22, 2014 19:45
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Patter Song posted:So...I've always been a bit uncomfortable around people who are very enthusiastic about the German military in the Second World War, which is a rather shockingly large number of people who are overrepresented on map games communities. It's like the id of your average strategy gamer longs to see maps of Europe covered by the word GERMANY in all capital letters in massive font, and some gamers are all id. There was a discussion of this over in DnD, of all places. Apparently war games sell best when there's a Nazi on the front. There was a Russian nationalist who was pissed off about all these games with Nazis on the front and made some games with Russian soldiers on the front instead. They sold horribly. A large amount of WW2 wargaming is nazi-focused. Is that because there's a huge amount of neo-nazi or nazi-idolising war gamers, or is it just because the nazis were such an iconic enemy. My experience with the Paradox forums suggests the former.
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Apr 22, 2014 20:04
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Cantorsdust posted:There was a discussion of this over in DnD, of all places. Apparently war games sell best when there's a Nazi on the front. There was a Russian nationalist who was pissed off about all these games with Nazis on the front and made some games with Russian soldiers on the front instead. They sold horribly. I honestly don't think there's a large amount of neo-nazis among Grognards since I always hear that "they only like the Wermacht, not the Nazis". I think it's more of a romance of violence/war thing, and that's something the Nazis did. Also, people seem to really like the uniforms and tanks which kinda ties into that. I think the majority of the neo-nazis on Paradox Plaza are teenagers in their revolting phase, or at least that's the impression I've gotten.
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Apr 22, 2014 20:14
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Yeah, I'll give them the benefit of a doubt and say that they like war and Nazis have brought on the biggest war that world has ever seen, so they are a logical choice for "warmakers". Could be also playing as underdogs, since every other movie of second half of last century has Nazis as villains.
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Apr 22, 2014 20:18
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lullelulle posted:I think the majority of the neo-nazis on Paradox Plaza are teenagers in their revolting phase, or at least that's the impression I've gotten. Yeah, I agree. Most paradox posters certainly are revolting.
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Apr 22, 2014 20:18
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Cantorsdust posted:There was a discussion of this over in DnD, of all places. Apparently war games sell best when there's a Nazi on the front. There was a Russian nationalist who was pissed off about all these games with Nazis on the front and made some games with Russian soldiers on the front instead. They sold horribly. I wouldn't be surprised if the generally anti-Russian attitude of most Western countries (less present since the end of the cold war, but there's still a lot of tension there) plays into this. The Germans actually fought the Russians, which is something a lot of people probably secretly (or not-so-secretly given we're talking about wargamers) fantasize about. This is probably exacerbated by the fact that modern Germany looks a lot better than modern Russia. In addition to this armchair psychology, you have the whole slew of wargamer biases that favor the Germans: the side that lost being more interesting in a can you change history sense, a general bias towards the smaller but more competent army (since most people only look at 1941 when thinking about competence), the side that is on the attack at first being more interesting, and so forth. Looking at that list, I wonder if a lot of the gamers who love the German army also play as the Confederates a lot - probably less noticeable due to the overwhelming popularity of WWII even compared to the American Civil War though.
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Apr 22, 2014 20:22
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The is also the perpetual myth of Germany nearly pulling it off, and beating the Allies if it weren't for Hitler/Enigma being broken/not wasting energy on Maus tanks/Japan's codes broken/competent Axis members/allow elastic defense/eliminate the BEF in Dunkrik/attack the USSR 2 weeks earlier/didn't kill jews so Germany would have better scientists/type XXI operational a year earlier/etc etc etc etc. As war gamer, you want to show you can do better than the real generals.
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Apr 22, 2014 20:26
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I do admit I like playing as historical losers and trying to turn them around. That means that my two favorite countries in WWII stuff are A. France and B. Italy. Italy is pretty much the biggest underperformer in basically everything since its unification in the 1860s, and France is the biggest underperformer relative to its strength in World War II in specific. Germany is certainly not an underperformer, and doesn't have much appeal to me on that front. Plus, it's, well, World War II era Germany. Italy may be an atrocious state, but if I'm playing as them in a WWII game I usually go it alone and try to prevent German annexation of Austria (because why would I want those damned Germans on my northern frontier?) and try to take the Balkans alone, something Mussolini distinctly failed to do. Screw being the junior partner in the Axis, I want to go it alone. (Basically, what d'Annunzio and Marinetti wanted IRL that would've gone terribly because they seriously overestimated Italy) France is an even more compelling story because it has ridiculous resources at its disposal and a large military yet it managed to maneuver itself into the most humiliating defeat since...France in 1870. A blind chimp could do better at World War II than the French general staff, and it makes playing as them compelling because there's no way you can do worse than IRL France.
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Apr 22, 2014 20:31
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The Germans also arguably have a more interesting set of battles: They're on the offensive for the better part of 3 years and then either have run away with the game (but might still face an uphill climb against the US) or they have to switch over to a defensive posture while still keeping things interesting because it's an active defense. Contrast this to either being on the defensive for a long long time as the Allies, or turning the tables on Germany by as early as 1940/1941 and then you have to make up your own justifications to pick fights afterwards.
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Apr 22, 2014 20:47
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Patter Song posted:I do admit I like playing as historical losers and trying to turn them around. Playing a gimmick game as France I aimed to deliberate lose the Metropolis and then fight back from Free France. I still lasted almost as long as the real French did despite having gently caress all to fight with.
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Apr 22, 2014 21:00
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lullelulle posted:I honestly don't think there's a large amount of neo-nazis among Grognards since I always hear that "they only like the Wermacht, not the Nazis". I don't get this. Do people think the Wehrmacht was Nazi-free? That they just  d at the whole "kill all the Jews/Gypsies" thing and just wanted to fight honorably against those drat Bolsheviks?
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Apr 22, 2014 21:34
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Post war there was a big propaganda push about the "Clean Wehrmacht"that basically says the common non-SS in germany was just brave and honourable soldier fighting for his country and was totally igorant about Hitlers goals or probably didn't even like hitler but the was so dang gum honourable he did his duty. Also the german population all hated hitler too. Really it was just a tiny tiny minority of bad apples that tricked the whole country and really besides the whole jew thing the nazi's actually did a lot of good. Also the whole thing about "german efficiency" was absolute propaganda too. The Nazi's made modern day Ukraine look like an efficient and not-corrupt economy. Their industries were backwards and run horribly, their book keeping was constantly doctored to hide the horrific levels of corruption, and if it wasn't for the influx of war gold and slaves the entire country would have collapsed in on its self pretty quickly. Which is what's always so tragic about WWII is how easily it could have been stopped. If the allies had put up a fuss about the first of hitler's demands his entire house of cards would have collapsed around him. Hitler wasn't a genius, he was an idiot lucky to be surrounded by leaders dumber than him.
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Apr 22, 2014 21:44
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiLVAz-Jczg
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Apr 22, 2014 21:49
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Baronjutter posted:Post war there was a big propaganda push about the "Clean Wehrmacht"that basically says the common non-SS in germany was just brave and honourable soldier fighting for his country and was totally igorant about Hitlers goals or probably didn't even like hitler but the was so dang gum honourable he did his duty. Also the german population all hated hitler too. Really it was just a tiny tiny minority of bad apples that tricked the whole country and really besides the whole jew thing the nazi's actually did a lot of good. Isn't the German efficiency stereotype from earlier though? To me it always seems like most aspects of Nazi Germany is just a bad attempt at recreating Imperial Germany, but without a Kaiser.
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Apr 22, 2014 21:55
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Baronjutter posted:Post war there was a big propaganda push about the "Clean Wehrmacht"that basically says the common non-SS in germany was just brave and honourable soldier fighting for his country and was totally igorant about Hitlers goals or probably didn't even like hitler but the was so dang gum honourable he did his duty. Also the german population all hated hitler too. Really it was just a tiny tiny minority of bad apples that tricked the whole country and really besides the whole jew thing the nazi's actually did a lot of good. The thing is he was also propped up by a handful of military prodigies like Manstein and Guderian who grasped the concepts of modern warfare better than anyone else really did.
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Apr 22, 2014 21:58
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lullelulle posted:Isn't the German efficiency stereotype from earlier though? To me it always seems like most aspects of Nazi Germany is just a bad attempt at recreating Imperial Germany, but without a Kaiser. Yeah, the idea of "Teutonic efficiency" was around before WWI even, and it still continues to this day with "German engineering" and things like that.
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Apr 22, 2014 22:14
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