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big scary monsters posted:Yeah, funnily enough the main area of disagreement I have with the Greens is on green issues. On social issues they seem pretty good. I somehow had a genuine blazing row with a former friend a few days back after trying to tell her that Green Eggs And Ham memes do not mean what she thinks they do. She then told me that it was expected that I "Like GMOs, (you are) in love with poisoning your own body" So yeah the greens are loving lunatics and I really wish them going mental over things that don't exist in the real world was rarer than it is, I really hope support starts towards a non anti-science party. And to clarify if anyone here is not read on the issue: GMOs don't exist, it's not a technical term. The closest possible technical term is Living Modified Organism, which ranges from extremely hardy crops for poverty-stricken areas to our first ever total "cure" for a cancer. But genetic modification is bad because reasons, just like nuclear power.
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Apr 23, 2014 21:32
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Spangly A posted:And to clarify if anyone here is not read on the issue: GMOs don't exist, it's not a technical term. Things don't disappear because people give them non-technical names.
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Apr 23, 2014 21:44
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Oh dear me posted:Things don't disappear because people give them non-technical names. Right, but what people think "GMOs" are do not exist, and have never existed. Terminator seeds have never been used. Drought resistant crops have. We aren't making three legged mutant fish. We have cured the genetic predisposition to ever getting BR1 breast cancer. Being against GMOs is as intellectually valid as believing in witchcraft.
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Apr 23, 2014 21:47
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Spangly A posted:Right, but what people think "GMOs" are do not exist, and have never existed. Terminator seeds have never been used. Drought resistant crops have. We aren't making three legged mutant fish. We have cured the genetic predisposition to ever getting BR1 breast cancer. Being against GMOs is as intellectually valid as believing in witchcraft. Straw man arguments don't gain validity from numbers, you know.
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Apr 23, 2014 21:50
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twoot posted:A huge jizzing cock should be the official None-of-the-above option. Pretty sure they'd count that as a vote for the Tories.
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Apr 23, 2014 21:52
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Oh dear me posted:Straw man arguments don't gain validity from numbers, you know. Have you genuinely not met the Green sorts who seriously believe GMOs create horrible mutants? They do exist. If you would prefer an argument free of all hyperbole, "All opposition to GMOs is intellectually invalid. A vocal segment of anti-GMO sentiment believes that nature is Good and not-nature is Bad. This is intellectually invalid to an extreme."
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Apr 23, 2014 22:03
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I have met socialist nutcases, too, and their existence is not a valid argument against socialism and does not make socialism intellectually invalid.
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Apr 23, 2014 22:09
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Oh dear me posted:I have met socialist nutcases, too, and their existence is not a valid argument against socialism and does not make socialism intellectually invalid. I'm not arguing that at all. But Green policy is explicitly anti-science and the problems the world is facing will not go very well for them. They're against all of our power sources that aren't renewables. What on earth would happen to the lights if they won a GE? It's not meant to be an attack on anyone who would vote green, and they're probably the best option for Europe given they aren't likely to leave, will want to build bridges with Scotland for renewables, and will push things like renewable energy and lowering of emissions very hard. Their policies would be a disaster running a country though. On a similar note, if I met any socialists arguing against bourgeois meritocracy in the form of anti-intellectualist positions on policy, I'd say they were also lunatics. We do actually quite need science and sadly that requires acknowledging that some people have a combination of upbringing and genetics that makes them more adept at it than the rest of us.
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Apr 23, 2014 22:16
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Really though any of the more extreme green views are pretty unlikely to ever have any influence, since they're really on the sidelines. Whereas their general stance on issues has a home in the leftist bloc, and can at least have a positive influence on the direction the EU is taking. Outlier positions are less important than their anti-austerity, socialist stances. If we ever get to a point where TEH GREEN LOBBY actually does wield it's mythical power over us all we'll be in a much better place, and so will the Greens
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Apr 23, 2014 22:16
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Spangly A posted:Have you genuinely not met the Green sorts who seriously believe GMOs create horrible mutants? As much as I am pro-GMO and think that the benefits far outweigh the risks, and if anything bad DOES happen then we should simply react to that situation if it happens... I'm not going to lie and pretend HGT isn't a real thing, because it is. But again, we need to use GMO and keep an eye out for any HGT related shenanigans and deal with it when/if it happens.
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Apr 23, 2014 22:16
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baka kaba posted:If we ever get to a point where TEH GREEN LOBBY actually does wield it's mythical power over us all we'll be in a much better place, and so will the Greens Either that or they'll go mad with power and decide to switch off the planet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edjg3Ene7UY
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Apr 23, 2014 22:22
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SybilVimes posted:As much as I am pro-GMO and think that the benefits far outweigh the risks, and if anything bad DOES happen then we should simply react to that situation if it happens... HGT is pretty much the reason I'm so in favour of GMOs. That's how we've got a blueprint for eradicating BR1: the construct material uses HGT to entirely overwrite the cancer-causing genetic code. I haven't read any papers talking about risk potential, the material is specific enough that it wouldn't really do much anywhere else. If we can isolate similar genetic weaknesses, we can deal with an incredible array of conditions. I'm quite happy with saying "if there is any material we would not want transferring it's outright banned from ever being made", too. Terminator seeds are already banned, but they're an atrocity of their own anyway. As far as using HGT to fix parts of our genome that are loving us up, I am quite happy to continue with this. Also it makes fish colourful 
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Apr 23, 2014 22:23
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Spangly A posted:Green policy is explicitly anti-science Green policies: ST210 Scientific research requires proper funding. We value basic research and will ensure it is properly funded. We believe that it is important to have a wide body of research that is not funded or controlled by large corporations. ST211 We will increase public spending on R&D to at least 1% of GDP. ST221 All publically funded research, including clinical trials, must publish its results, even if the results obtained were inconclusive or negative. ST222 The results of all research performed at universities, but funded privately, should be subject to the Freedom of Information Act. ST240 Fundamental and applied research into the environment and the ecology of the biosphere and threatened habitats will attract a high level of funding. Research infrastructure will be developed to facilitate the long term multi-disciplinary research necessary for increasing our understanding of the requirements of a sustainable society. ST241 International collaboration in research will be increased and free movement of ideas, knowledge and researchers between countries will be maintained and facilitated. Research in the Antarctic will be restricted to its environment and ecology (see IP512). Education and Careers ST260 We will ensure that scientific advisors work in an environment of academic freedom and are able to always make recommendations free of political interference. ST270 We will ensure libel laws cannot be used to stifle scientific debate or academic freedom. ST361 The Green Party accepts that certain uses of genetic engineering may be benign and may lead to enhanced quality of life, but believes that the release of GMOs (genetically modified organisms) into the environment potentially poses substantial risks to biodiversity, human health and animal welfare and that there is currently insufficient research to quantify risks. In addition, genetic engineering of animals can cause significant suffering.
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Apr 23, 2014 22:56
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Nah but, Greens want to ban Christmas
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Apr 23, 2014 22:57
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Cool where's the bit where they say "Actually 361 isn't true and everything we've said about Nuclear is wrong" that's kinda what I meant and you know it.
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Apr 23, 2014 23:02
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Finally the proud Cornish people are free from the oppressive yoke of the Englishquote:The Cornish receive full National Minority status as one of the constituent peoples of the UK I'm off to celebrate down Trago with a pasty!
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Apr 23, 2014 23:26
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Spangly A posted:I'm not arguing that at all. But Green policy is explicitly anti-science and the problems the world is facing will not go very well for them. They're against all of our power sources that aren't renewables. What on earth would happen to the lights if they won a GE? If the greens would get on board with nuclear I'd be all for them. They really should, that poo poo's a million times more efficient and less harmful than fossil fuels. Also they are not anti-science broadly (though I do disagree with them on GMO)
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Apr 23, 2014 23:39
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Oh dear me posted:Green policies: I've read the Green manifesto and this is cherry-picking in the main, stop being a dickhead. Anyone who has ever interacted with the Green party at all will tell you that electoral candidates tend to be pretty down-to-earth with a couple of poo poo ideas (like anti-nuclear) and some of the rank and file are completely hosed up anti-science tosspots. The primary strength and primary problem with the Green party is that their stance on policy is democratic. It means that you get socialist policies coming through that wouldn't have a hope in hell in other parties but it also means that you get dumb poo poo vs the scientific boogeyman du jour
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Apr 23, 2014 23:41
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gently caress the greens EN105 The Green Party is fundamentally opposed to nuclear energy, which we consider to be expensive and dangerous. The technology is not carbon neutral, and being reliant on uranium it is not renewable. We consider its use, moreover, to be elitist and undemocratic. There is so far no safe way of disposing of nuclear waste. To a degree unequalled by even the worst of other dangerous industries, the costs and dangers of nuclear energy and its waste will be passed on to future generations long after any benefits have been exhausted. EN600 A deadline for phasing out nuclear power would be set when we come to office and all UK nuclear power plants phased out within this date. FA720 The Green Party supports a moratorium on the use of GMOs in all agricultural systems including production of human food and animal feed and on importation of GM food or feed.
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Apr 24, 2014 02:25
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big scary monsters posted:Yeah, funnily enough the main area of disagreement I have with the Greens is on green issues. On social issues they seem pretty good. I don't know (or honestly care) about their current manifesto or explicit policies, but they're traditionally awful on science, animal testing and nuclear power, and there's a lot of support for homeopathy etc in the party's members although they seem to be trying to cut down on that as a whole. Oh dear me posted:ST361 The Green Party accepts that certain uses of genetic engineering may be benign and may lead to enhanced quality of life, but believes that the release of GMOs (genetically modified organisms) into the environment potentially poses substantial risks to biodiversity, human health and animal welfare and that there is currently insufficient research to quantify risks. In addition, genetic engineering of animals can cause significant suffering. Are you aware that acting on the second point here and restricting animal genetic engineering would torpedo entire fields of crucial medical research? I would remind people that trusting a party's manifesto to be entirely reflective of what they would actually do whilst in power is very, very silly, and that the UKIP claims not to be a racist party in their own. The Greens have traditionally been awful in practice on science issues and the fact that it's easy to view them as 'the good guys' doesn't mean you should stop applying the same level of cynicism that needs to be applied with every other political party. Tolth fucked around with this message at 08:28 on Apr 24, 2014 |
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Apr 24, 2014 08:23
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So guys I did a silly thing and signed up to YouGov to make £50 doing surveys because I'm a poor student. Decided to play about with it a bit and publish my opinion on a few things and I am just getting savaged for criticising UKIP. I'm a little scared. I'm also still poor because would you look at that the surveys have gone from one a day to one a week or so now that I'm getting half close to the required amount to get paid.
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Apr 24, 2014 08:47
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ThomasPaine posted:So guys I did a silly thing and signed up to YouGov to make £50 doing surveys because I'm a poor student. Decided to play about with it a bit and publish my opinion on a few things and I am just getting savaged for criticising UKIP. I'm a little scared. I'm also still poor because would you look at that the surveys have gone from one a day to one a week or so now that I'm getting half close to the required amount to get paid. Where did you publish these views?
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Apr 24, 2014 08:54
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ThomasPaine posted:So guys I did a silly thing and signed up to YouGov to make £50 doing surveys because I'm a poor student. Decided to play about with it a bit and publish my opinion on a few things and I am just getting savaged for criticising UKIP. I'm a little scared. I'm also still poor because would you look at that the surveys have gone from one a day to one a week or so now that I'm getting half close to the required amount to get paid. Bask in your righteousness.
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Apr 24, 2014 09:08
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Tolth posted:I don't know (or honestly care) about their current manifesto or explicit policies, but they're traditionally awful on science, animal testing and nuclear power, and there's a lot of support for homeopathy etc in the party's members although they seem to be trying to cut down on that as a whole. There is a lot of support for homeopathy etc among every party's members, but it's only used as a (bad) argument against Greens. The best reason for that is that the Greens have a democratic policy formation process, so members' opinions might be thought actually to matter a little bit. That is, in itself, a good reason to vote Green. But if you are cynical, and think Green MPs will behave like all other MPs, and do what corporate lobbyists urge them to do, there is even less reason to worry about what some Green members think.
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Apr 24, 2014 09:12
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There are still plenty of the full on dont hurt the bunny wunny's members but there is a growing core of pragmagtic essentialy socialist long term'ist (if that makes sense) people. I could care less about the animals and want nuclear power but its the nearest fit to my worldview. And we actually have a loving MP so thats a start. Seaside Loafer fucked around with this message at 09:23 on Apr 24, 2014 |
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Apr 24, 2014 09:20
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Seaside Loafer posted:pragmagtic essentialy socialist long term'ist (if that makes sense) Commies, gotcha.
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Apr 24, 2014 09:24
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ThomasPaine posted:So guys I did a silly thing and signed up to YouGov to make £50 doing surveys because I'm a poor student. Decided to play about with it a bit and publish my opinion on a few things and I am just getting savaged for criticising UKIP. I'm a little scared. I'm also still poor because would you look at that the surveys have gone from one a day to one a week or so now that I'm getting half close to the required amount to get paid. Those surveys for cash things used to always be pointless, even churning through them 24/7 doesn't make more than pin money. Why/how are people scaring you? Can't you report the flames? Don't be dissuaded from airing your opinions by people who shout louder. On a connected note, did anyone see the UKIP ppb last night? Those fuckers are getting slick these days. Admittedly all UKIP MEPs that are still all 'I.AM.READING.THIS.FOR.A.CAMERA' apart from Farage who seems scarily chummy. They also made sure to cram as many brown faces in as possible. It was worlds apart from that one a while ago with UFOs tearing up the House of Commons; where are they getting the money?
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Apr 24, 2014 09:35
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KKKlean Energy posted:Commies, gotcha.
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Apr 24, 2014 09:38
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Trickjaw posted:where are they getting the money? Paul Sykes: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/17e7e862-ca38-11e3-bb92-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2zcTTBrVs quote:The reclusive multimillionaire behind the anti-Brussels UK Independence party has vowed there will be “no limit” to his spending in the run-up to next year’s general election.
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Apr 24, 2014 09:38
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Here it is on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tybrqnYUTaA Maybe I'm watching the wrong one but I saw only two brown faces in that? Anyway I love how Farage isn't actually standing in a pub at the end but is instead standing in front a greenscreen with a picture of a pub shopped in behind him.
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Apr 24, 2014 09:47
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KKKlean Energy posted:Here it is on youtube: The builder guy at one minute ten, what accent is that? He doesnt sound like any builder that I've ever met.
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Apr 24, 2014 09:54
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KKKlean Energy posted:Here it is on youtube: Except for the camera move (which isn't completely impossible to combine with a greenscreen but I wouldn't expect a low budget piece of poo poo like this to have it). So I think he's really standing in one.
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Apr 24, 2014 10:03
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KKKlean Energy posted:Here it is on youtube: Still two more brown faces than you'd see in Britain if Nigel "Norsefire" Farage was PM.
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Apr 24, 2014 10:04
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Since it appears to be UKIP day,  http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...de-9278390.html quote:Six Ukip MEPS, including leader Nigel Farage, have come under heavy criticism after it emerged they had voted ‘No’ to a resolution that would help prevent the illegal trade of ivory in Europe.
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Apr 24, 2014 10:10
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LemonDrizzle posted:Paul Sykes: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/17e7e862-ca38-11e3-bb92-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2zcTTBrVs I can't find it, but I'm pretty sure that I heard someone on the radio talking about this story, and a point was made that Sykes directly pays for the advertising rather than giving money to the ukips. It made me chuckle. e: Found a source, I didnt' make it up: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/01/ukip-conference-feud-over-donor-paul-sykes quote:Speaking on the second day of the party's spring conference in Torquay, Hamilton said: "He [Sykes] won't be giving the money directly to Ukip. He has said he will fund certain things: for example, billboards or advertising vans." KayTee fucked around with this message at 10:36 on Apr 24, 2014 |
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Apr 24, 2014 10:34
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Brown Moses posted:Finally the proud Cornish people are free from the oppressive yoke of the English 
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Apr 24, 2014 10:53
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Oh dear me posted:The best reason for that is that the Greens have a democratic policy formation process, so members' opinions might be thought actually to matter a little bit. That is, in itself, a good reason to vote Green. As I already said, the democratic process is good and bad (whoulda thunk it). It means you get both socialist thought and lovely anti-science policies.
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Apr 24, 2014 10:59
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Zephro posted:Trago is in Devon Trago started in Cornwall though. Did you know that the guy in charge even tried to make his own light aeroplane for export once? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FLS_Sprint
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Apr 24, 2014 11:00
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Trickjaw posted:Those surveys for cash things used to always be pointless, even churning through them 24/7 doesn't make more than pin money. Why/how are people scaring you? Can't you report the flames? Oh, no, no. I was being hyperbolic. I'm just kind of genuinely concerned that on a supposedly neutral polling site UKIP supporters seem to be a really loving significant minority. Probably 30-40% from what I've seen (obviously tiny sample size but it caught me off guard either way). And yes the £50 seemed good value at the time but it is rapidly becoming clear that it is not. I'll probably lazily burn through one every now and then because, hey, fifty quid in two years or however long it takes.
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Apr 24, 2014 11:12
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ThomasPaine posted:Oh, no, no. I was being hyperbolic. I'm just kind of genuinely concerned that on a supposedly neutral polling site UKIP supporters seem to be a really loving significant minority. Probably 30-40% from what I've seen (obviously tiny sample size but it caught me off guard either way). It's not that surprising - either you want £50 or you really really want to share your reckons with the world
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Apr 24, 2014 11:14
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