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Entropic posted:I believe you can in this case, because Desecration Demon is worded in a way that sets up a separate trigger for the tapping. Triggered abilities have 'when', 'whenever', or 'at' in them. The "If you do," part has none of them.
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Apr 23, 2014 22:25
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So it all happens at once? It seems like it would be less ambiguous if they worded it so that the sacrifice was a cost to tap the demon. Or does that raise other issues?
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Apr 23, 2014 22:27
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Entropic posted:So it all happens at once? It seems like it would be less ambiguous if they worded it so that the sacrifice was a cost to tap the demon. Or does that raise other issues? The ability 'block' on the stack is as follows: "other ability" "Player gets chance to sac, if they do it immediately becomes tapped" "other ability" It's one thing, no responses and the like.
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Apr 23, 2014 22:31
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Entropic posted:So it all happens at once? It seems like it would be less ambiguous if they worded it so that the sacrifice was a cost to tap the demon. Or does that raise other issues? This is the standard way to word this sort of effect (see Lotus Vale); I'm not sure how else they could word it.
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Apr 23, 2014 22:31
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The confusing part is how "at x" is a trigger, but "if x" is not. I can see the logic to it, but it's ambiguous. It's really hard to word that kind of thing in a way that makes it clear it's all one trigger.
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Apr 23, 2014 22:35
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It's not ambiguous, since the rules for what is a trigger are very explicit. Additionally the If doesn't start on its own line which is another clue. If it helps, perhaps think about it as a long run on sentence without that period there.
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Apr 23, 2014 23:10
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Entropic posted:The confusing part is how "at x" is a trigger, but "if x" is not. I can see the logic to it, but it's ambiguous. It's really hard to word that kind of thing in a way that makes it clear it's all one trigger. It's not the most easily grokkable thing for someone new, but that's the way most similar effects have been worded, so it's kinda been growing into people with each one. Today's Desecration Demon is tomorrow's <other creature with similar effect>. Actually, here's an idea. Think of it like Brainstorm. No chance of doing ANYTHING between drawing three and putting back two, it's all one effect.
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Apr 23, 2014 23:12
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Serperoth posted:It's not the most easily grokkable thing for someone new, but that's the way most similar effects have been worded, so it's kinda been growing into people with each one. Today's Desecration Demon is tomorrow's <other creature with similar effect>.
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Apr 23, 2014 23:20
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Think of it like Vexing Devil then.
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Apr 23, 2014 23:21
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Korak posted:The problem is that the people that are having difficulties with DD probably don't play Legacy. You're right that is a nice way of explaining it to someone familiar with Brainstorm. Vexing Devil also works, as Nehru said. I was thinking more along the lines of an example to illustrate how the entire spell (effect, in DD's case) finishes resolving before anything else can happen, and Brainstorm was just the first obvious example that came to mind. As far as non-Legacy stuff goes... Sphinx's Revelation? You gain the life and draw the cards, and nothing more happens while the spell resolves (barring replacement abilities or whatever). Or even Dissolve, similar case of two effects. In DD's case, the two effects are linked, but it doesn't change anything. Another way to think about it is like a computer programme. The Stack brings up DD's effect DD says this: -Player can sac a creature -If Player sacced, this happens -Return to the Stack It's kind of late for me actually, but I'm just coming up with ways to grok the effect.
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Apr 23, 2014 23:28
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It's definitely non-intuitive. Most people who understand how triggers work assume that once the trigger resolves and the player makes a choice, you can then respond again because it creates a second trigger, but that's not how it works. It's like Knowledge and Power: when you scry, KaP's trigger is put on the stack, and your opponent can respond. You don't pay the mana until KaP's trigger resolves, at which point you pay and then it does the damage and you don't have time to respond in between.
DAD LOST MY IPOD fucked around with this message at 01:50 on Apr 24, 2014 |
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Apr 23, 2014 23:36
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Sphinx Revelation is probably the best example for a Standard player. You can respond to the casting, you can respond after, but not mid-draw.
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Apr 23, 2014 23:43
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With the command cycle of spells, in this case primal command, do I have to choose which 2 effects I want before decisions are made about whether or not the spell resolves?
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Apr 23, 2014 23:43
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Fingers McLongDong posted:With the command cycle of spells, in this case primal command, do I have to choose which 2 effects I want before decisions are made about whether or not the spell resolves? Yes. As you cast the spell, you choose what modes of it you will use.
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Apr 23, 2014 23:45
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Fingers McLongDong posted:With the command cycle of spells, in this case primal command, do I have to choose which 2 effects I want before decisions are made about whether or not the spell resolves? Yeah choosing modes is one of things you do before anyone has priority again.
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Apr 23, 2014 23:46
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Wow that sure was a lot of Vintage chat. Here, have some tokens:       I wonder why the Minotaur doesn't have haste...
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Apr 24, 2014 00:30
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They never put haste on tokens since it's only relevant for one turn.
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Apr 24, 2014 00:37
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That snake looks awesome.
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Apr 24, 2014 00:37
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Sad Zombie looks adorable.
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Apr 24, 2014 00:41
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Pontius Pilate posted:They never put haste on tokens since it's only relevant for one turn. 'cept when they do. Assemble the Legion, etc
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Apr 24, 2014 00:50
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MisterOblivious posted:'cept when they do. They make tokens with the ability Haste all the time. They don't put the word 'Haste' on the tokens they print to go with those token-makers. The White/Red Soldier tokens from Assemble the Legion don't have Haste printed on them.
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Apr 24, 2014 00:52
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Neat.
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Apr 24, 2014 01:07
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Dungeon Ecology posted:Wow that sure was a lot of Vintage chat. That snake is happy snake buddies with Zendikar snake.
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Apr 24, 2014 01:09
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Attorney at Funk posted:They make tokens with the ability Haste all the time. They don't put the word 'Haste' on the tokens they print to go with those token-makers. The White/Red Soldier tokens from Assemble the Legion don't have Haste printed on them. Ahh, I didn't realize Pontius Pilate meant "They never put haste, as in print the word haste on the physical token, on tokens since it's only relevant for one turn." Living up to my username like an idiot yet again 
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Apr 24, 2014 01:30
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Serperoth posted:Vexing Devil also works, as Nehru said. Apropos of nothing, but this makes me wish that Vexing Devil was legal with Athreos. Pontius Pilate posted:They never put haste on tokens since it's only relevant for one turn. Which I don't quite get, because haste is only relevant on regular creatures for one turn as well. If there's room on the token for Reach, then there's room on the token for Haste. Sure, they can make the picture bigger, but who cares.
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Apr 24, 2014 01:39
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Textless tokens look way better and it's very difficult to end up with memory issues. I think it's the right call. They're obviously not going to omit haste on real cards cause that makes no sense 
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Apr 24, 2014 01:42
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Sarcastro posted:Which I don't quite get, because haste is only relevant on regular creatures for one turn as well. If there's room on the token for Reach, then there's room on the token for Haste. Sure, they can make the picture bigger, but who cares. If they later print a card that makes 1/1 Red and White Soldiers, but without haste, you could use this token with that card as well.
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Apr 24, 2014 01:46
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After my creature (or my opponents creature!) is down for more than one turn I scratch the haste out on the card because its pointless text after that turn.
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Apr 24, 2014 01:48
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Real creatures can change zones and come back and such. If a token changes zones, it's gone forever. It's never going to be entering the battlefield on a different turn from when you last read the card that created it.
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Apr 24, 2014 02:07
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Entropic posted:Real creatures can change zones and come back and such. If a token changes zones, it's gone forever. It's never going to be entering the battlefield on a different turn from when you last read the card that created it. But it might change controllers!
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Apr 24, 2014 02:11
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Brownhat posted:If they later print a card that makes 1/1 Red and White Soldiers, but without haste, you could use this token with that card as well. Of course, there is a chance they would make tokens later with haste printed on it.
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Apr 24, 2014 02:17
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Entropic posted:It's never going to be entering the battlefield on a different turn from when you last read the card that created it. Populate 
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Apr 24, 2014 02:22
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I change my mind, they should print haste on the tokens.
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Apr 24, 2014 02:25
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLwknTd9aZQ Proper deck building shown off in DotP 2015. Honestly with how slick everything looks on the ipad it really puts MTGO to shame.
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Apr 24, 2014 02:37
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Now do that with MODO.
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Apr 24, 2014 02:43
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Korak posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLwknTd9aZQ That's cool and all, but these versions of the game are still really sub-par when you're used to upper echelon competitive play. It's great for casuals though, I guess.
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Apr 24, 2014 02:48
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What a Judas posted:That's cool and all, but these versions of the game are still really sub-par when you're used to upper echelon competitive play. It's great for casuals though, I guess. I think I'm the demo they're looking for, because I want MTGO but without spending shitloads of money. But they don't want to cannibalize that market too much, and I can't blame them. So we get dumbed-down versions with handicapped interfaces.
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Apr 24, 2014 02:58
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What a Judas posted:That's cool and all, but these versions of the game are still really sub-par when you're used to upper echelon competitive play. It's great for casuals though, I guess. Casuals  Seriously, DOTP is not meant to be a replacement for regular old Magic. It's an "arcade game" style version, much simplified, used for getting people into the game. It's much more like puzzle magic, where it sets up specific situations you have to solve, and a deck-building exercise with limited resources.
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Apr 24, 2014 03:18
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Plus it's fun on the can.
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Apr 24, 2014 03:30
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I bought the very first release of dotp several years ago on xbox live and played it for all of half an hour. Seems like it would be ok if you could play limited against other people for free or something, but for constructed competitive it didn't (doesn't?) compare to mtgo at all in any way. I think lots more people would be ok with paying money for cards if the client wasn't so bad. The beta brings my fairly decent gaming pc to its knees  .
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Apr 24, 2014 03:33
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