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T-Shaped posted:Signed up for my first prerelease for the midnight release - what can I expect when I'm there? I've never done one before. Expect a lot of smelly nerds and some cards to be misunderstood when they're played. Always read the card no matter what, so nothing unfortunate happens if a misreading helps someone win. Be pleasant to one another.
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Apr 24, 2014 15:06
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Going to my first as well, friends told me to bring water and dress like it is going to be 90 degrees in there.
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Apr 24, 2014 15:12
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Literally The Worst posted:It's when Aurelia attacks for the first time each turn. Blinking creates a "new" Aurelia who is now attacking for the first time this turn. I was answering the first question not the blinking example.
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Apr 24, 2014 15:13
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T-Shaped posted:Signed up for my first prerelease for the midnight release - what can I expect when I'm there? I've never done one before. Expect collectively 1 shower amongst 40 dudes, poor social behavior, and one REALLY awkward girl. I suggest that you bring some drinks, some snacks (things with less crumbs and oil is preferable), and be prepared to be awake until roughly 5am. As was already stated...read the cards VERY carefully, and if you have doubts don't be afraid to call a judge/rules advisor.
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Apr 24, 2014 15:32
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OssiansFolly posted:Expect collectively 1 shower amongst 40 dudes, poor social behavior, and one REALLY awkward girl. You forgot the one guy who thinks he's hot poo poo. There's always at least one of those.
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Apr 24, 2014 15:43
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T-Shaped posted:Signed up for my first prerelease for the midnight release - what can I expect when I'm there? I've never done one before. In addition to what they've told you, be aware that you can't play with those snow-covered lands for the prerelease. I don't know if that was your intention, but I wanted to cover that base.
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Apr 24, 2014 15:46
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So from the crazy mind of Greg Hatch he's still working on his Legacy Mono Blue Frost Martyr deck. He brought up an interesting rules interaction that if he forecasts a hussar, then brainstorms with the trigger on the stack, since your opponent doesn't know if you drew another hussar or not you can forecast again with the same hussar. He said he had a long discussion with a Judge at the last tournament he was at about it. One of the chat regulars also brought up a hilarious 45 minute judge call at GP Strassbourg involving Sylvan Library and Chains of Mephistopheles.
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Apr 24, 2014 15:48
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Korak posted:So from the crazy mind of Greg Hatch he's still working on his Legacy Mono Blue Frost Martyr deck. He brought up an interesting rules interaction that if he forecasts a hussar, then brainstorms with the trigger on the stack, since your opponent doesn't know if you drew another hussar or not you can forecast again with the same hussar. He said he had a long discussion with a Judge at the last tournament he was at about it. I'm beginning to think Chains might just be a way to ensure a draw in a match you know you can't win.
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Apr 24, 2014 15:50
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Korak posted:Wonder how ridiculous this card was not to get reprinted. Not a Nagle card but there's some cool things that could be done with a Persephone character. Persephone, daughter of harvest and decay 1BG Legendary Enchantment Creature - Demigod Whenever a Forest is tapped for mana, its controller adds G to his or her mana pool. If Persephone is in the graveyard, whenever a Swamp is tapped for mana, its controller adds B to his or her mana pool. At the beginning of your upkeep, if Persephone is in the graveyard, return Persephone to the battlefield under its owner's control. Persephone gains haste. At the beginning of your end step, sacrifice Persephone. 1/2 I'm not exactly sure when subtype it would get, but it'd be a cool way to have a legendary enchantment creature that's more of a demi god. I'm also not sure if it should just have haste by default (otherwise it's kind of barely relevant that it is a creature except for having a Toughness to target for things like Magma Spray). The self recurring feels in line with the myth and the symmetrical extra mana is an effect in both Green and Black (although rarer in the latter). Also a shitton of rules text but I think it's understandable.
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Apr 24, 2014 15:51
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Korak posted:So from the crazy mind of Greg Hatch he's still working on his Legacy Mono Blue Frost Martyr deck. He brought up an interesting rules interaction that if he forecasts a hussar, then brainstorms with the trigger on the stack, since your opponent doesn't know if you drew another hussar or not you can forecast again with the same hussar. He said he had a long discussion with a Judge at the last tournament he was at about it.  I bet we'll see this addressed in the comp rules at some point! That's like the halfway point between scummy and hilarious.
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Apr 24, 2014 15:52
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I'm pretty sure it's just like the Sylvan Library situation where you need to call a judge over to ensure you're not cheating. It's unfortunate, but there's not really anything you can do to solve it without leaking additional information over what cards you put back off the Brainstorm. In fact, it's even less abusive, because if you did Forecast twice, your opponent could call a judge at that point and they could just check to see whether there was a second Hussar in either your hand or the top two cards of your deck. Something which they would do in every case if you weren't able to prove you had two. Jabor fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Apr 24, 2014 |
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Apr 24, 2014 15:56
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What a Judas posted:In addition to what they've told you, be aware that you can't play with those snow-covered lands for the prerelease. I don't know if that was your intention, but I wanted to cover that base. Technically you can't use them, but anyone who'd make a fuss about it at a prerelease is probably a dick.
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Apr 24, 2014 15:56
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whydirt posted:Technically you can't use them, but anyone who'd make a fuss about it at a prerelease is probably a dick. That's just ridiculous - at what level is insisting that people follow the rules considered a faux pas? Casual play? Sure, but prereleases and FNMs are still sanctioned events. If I were up against someone playing with snow lands outside of modern or legacy I'd at least be wondering if and/or why they were trying to misrepresent board states. I mean, sure, it would be ridiculous to demand that a judge give someone a game loss for playing snow basics as basics in a casual level event, but prereleases ARE still sanctioned events and that the rules do absolutely state snow lands are NOT just bulk includes into a limited deck. It might not be relevant in theros but it's the kind of thing that can be relevant in formats outside of the snow blocks, for example, with cards like Extraplanar Lens.
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Apr 24, 2014 16:01
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Jabor posted:In fact, it's even less abusive, because if you did Forecast twice, your opponent could call a judge at that point and they could just check to see whether there was a second Hussar in either your hand or the top two cards of your deck. Something which they would do in every case if you weren't able to prove you had two. When Brainstorming, is it expected that the opponent "knows" which three cards are the ones you just drew? In that case, the judge call would be justified. Same thing when revealing the Hussar twice during your upkeep. Your opponent doesn't know if you have one or two Hussars, so you could theoretically just use the same Hussar twice. Unless your opponent is expected to "know" which card was revealed.
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Apr 24, 2014 16:03
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Jabor posted:I'm pretty sure it's just like the Sylvan Library situation where you need to call a judge over to ensure you're not cheating. It's unfortunate, but there's not really anything you can do to solve it without leaking additional information over what cards you put back off the Brainstorm. Or you could require that a forecasted card remain revealed until you have finished resolving all forecasts of that named card that turn. So you have to put the Hussar down on the table and leave it there while you resolve the brainstorm, and if you don't draw a second Hussar, you can pick up the Hussar and finish resolving your brainstorm. If you do draw a second, you can lay it down next to the first one, then pick them up and finish the brainstorm. Edit: Actually I guess you can't forecast while resolving the brainstorm - so yeah, it would be a problem because you would want to put back the "old" Hussar and keep the "new" Hussar, which would need a judge. Devor fucked around with this message at 16:08 on Apr 24, 2014 |
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Apr 24, 2014 16:04
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Korak posted:So from the crazy mind of Greg Hatch he's still working on his Legacy Mono Blue Frost Martyr deck. He brought up an interesting rules interaction that if he forecasts a hussar, then brainstorms with the trigger on the stack, since your opponent doesn't know if you drew another hussar or not you can forecast again with the same hussar. He said he had a long discussion with a Judge at the last tournament he was at about it. Eesh, that'd be a nightmare to rule on in the rare situation that the player actually draws a second Hussar into their hand before their opponent calls the judge. This is why I'd never want to play Legacy on paper, it's filled with people who intentionally (and unintentionally) play too fast, miss triggers, and create favorable gamestates for them by exploiting floor rules rather than the rules of the game that they're playing. EDIT: Ah, changing zones and the Hussar being a "new" card after drawing. That's even worse. There's nothing the judge can do to prove that the player is cheating unless it's a featured match. Emerson Cod fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Apr 24, 2014 |
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Apr 24, 2014 16:07
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Devor posted:Or you could require that a forecasted card remain revealed until you have finished resolving all forecasts of that named card that turn. So you have to put the Hussar down on the table and leave it there while you resolve the brainstorm, and if you don't draw a second Hussar, you can pick up the Hussar and finish resolving your brainstorm. If you do draw a second, you can lay it down next to the first one, then pick them up and finish the brainstorm. Wouldn't you have to do it that way even without the Brainstorm? "Uh yeah all seven of these cards in hand are Steeling Stance." *rapidly flickers hand between each Forecast* I didn't play during original Rav block so I don't know how they handled it.
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Apr 24, 2014 16:07
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I'm about 90% sure that the Sky Hussar thing doesn't work. According to the Comprehensive Rules,Comprehensive Rules posted:702.56b A forecast ability may be activated only during the upkeep step of the card’s owner and only once each turn. The controller of the forecast ability reveals the card with that ability from his or her hand as the ability is activated. That player plays with that card revealed in his or her hand until it leaves the player’s hand or until a step or phase that isn’t an upkeep step begins, whichever comes first. Since Forecast is an activated ability, not a trigger, (I'm pretty sure) there's no point where it can go on the stack and the Hussar itself is not revealed. Once it's revealed, it has to stay revealed until the upkeep ends. EDIT: Or until it leaves your hand (i.e. putting it on top of your deck with Brainstorm).
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Apr 24, 2014 16:11
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bvoid posted:When Brainstorming, is it expected that the opponent "knows" which three cards are the ones you just drew? In that case, the judge call would be justified. Your opponent does not, generally, know the difference between two cards in your hand. The only thing they know is the number of cards. If it were otherwise, you wouldn't be allowed to shuffle the cards in your hand to conceal whether you're playing the card you just drew or one you previously had. Sylvan Library is kind of a special case, where it's expected that you keep the cards in your hand drawn this turn separate from the rest for as long as it's relevant, so that your opponent can verify that you're not cheating with the cards you put back. Casting Brainstorm during your upkeep (or even just casting a spell that draws you one or more cards, followed by casting another spell) breaks that convention, because now following it causes you to leak information about whether the cards you put back are some of the ones you drew this turn or not. The only way to ensure you're not cheating, while not leaking information to your opponent, is to have a third party (i.e. a judge) verify that you're following the rules. e:^ Oh, I should really check the comp. rules instead of going off the reminder text. It would seem that in this case, if you Brainstorm after using a Forecast ability, your opponent does get to know whether or not you put the Forecast card back on top.
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Apr 24, 2014 16:11
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 Blows out a Legacy Storm player with a cursecatcher that was on the board the entire time. Great job counting Storm guy!
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Apr 24, 2014 16:12
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Zoness posted:That's just ridiculous - at what level is insisting that people follow the rules considered a faux pas? Casual play? Sure, but prereleases and FNMs are still sanctioned events. If I were up against someone playing with snow lands outside of modern or legacy I'd at least be wondering if and/or why they were trying to misrepresent board states. The poster above was just talking about how they liked snow lands because of nostalgia, so this isn't a case of someone trying to eek out some marginal advantage through head games or actual mechanics. Yeah, if some dude was trying to use Extraplanar Lens with their snow lands during a prerelease, I would call them on it, but that's not what's going on here. I also offer friendly mulligans without reporting games as draws during prereleases! Feel free to report me to the Wizard Poker police.
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Apr 24, 2014 16:14
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You can definitely brainstorm in response to Sky Hussar's ability, put the Sky Hussar on top with brainstorm, draw the Sky Hussar when its ability resolves, then use it again though, right?
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Apr 24, 2014 16:14
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What a Judas posted:In addition to what they've told you, be aware that you can't play with those snow-covered lands for the prerelease. I don't know if that was your intention, but I wanted to cover that base. I got them just for fun basically - I always wanted them when I was younger and never got the chance.
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Apr 24, 2014 16:15
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Ableist Kinkshamer posted:You can definitely brainstorm in response to Sky Hussar's ability, put the Sky Hussar on top with brainstorm, draw the Sky Hussar when its ability resolves, then use it again though, right? That is disgusting and I love it
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Apr 24, 2014 16:15
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Procrastinator posted:I'm about 90% sure that the Sky Hussar thing doesn't work. According to the Comprehensive Rules, Ah, yeah. Got it. So it's kind of impossible to cheat but not all opponents will realize that. If the player doing the forecast flips the card and shuffles it back into their hand, that would be the action that creates an illegal game state, yeah? Does that then make the card draw illegal or would the judge just be able to sanction them for improperly resolving the ability? Are the sanctions comparable for both actions?
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Apr 24, 2014 16:16
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Ableist Kinkshamer posted:You can definitely brainstorm in response to Sky Hussar's ability, put the Sky Hussar on top with brainstorm, draw the Sky Hussar when its ability resolves, then use it again though, right? I would hazard a guess at yes. I'd imagine the ruling is similar to the fact that flickered permanents are new permanents, though, as opposed to your opponent not knowing if it's a new one. If you drew a Sky Hussar off of the Brainstorm itself and put the revealed one on top to draw it with itself, I'd imagine you could use both afterwards.
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Apr 24, 2014 16:18
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Ableist Kinkshamer posted:You can definitely brainstorm in response to Sky Hussar's ability, put the Sky Hussar on top with brainstorm, draw the Sky Hussar when its ability resolves, then use it again though, right? I'm pretty sure that works, yeah. It becomes a different game object when it switches zones, so once you draw it it's now a Sky Hussar that has not had its Forecast ability used yet.
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Apr 24, 2014 16:18
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Procrastinator posted:I'm about 90% sure that the Sky Hussar thing doesn't work. According to the Comprehensive Rules,
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Apr 24, 2014 16:46
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whydirt posted:The poster above was just talking about how they liked snow lands because of nostalgia, so this isn't a case of someone trying to eek out some marginal advantage through head games or actual mechanics. Yeah, if some dude was trying to use Extraplanar Lens with their snow lands during a prerelease, I would call them on it, but that's not what's going on here. The issue is why would you bother doing that at any kind of tournament. Like I said, it's not enough to bother me personally, but I wouldn't espouse doing it because it would probably run afoul of someone at some point. I didn't even think playing snow lands in a prerelease was like, the topic of discussion when the guy posted about buying lands, but the abstract concept of playing snow lands in a non-coldsnap limited event to me it's like the same kind of thing issue as pile shuffling to "reduce randomness" in that anything that involves going through extra effort to purportedly not actually accomplish something seems reasonably suspect at some level. And realistically, prereleases are likely to have people not even intentionally misplaying rules / misrepresenting board states due to lack of familiarity with the cards so it's not unreasonable for someone to just point out this kind of thing. It's entirely possible that someone that hadn't seen the spoiler at a prerelease thinks snow is a set mechanic. Sure, that kind of player isn't likely to raise concerns with regards to limited deck composition, but they might ask someone else, etc. The point is though if you're running snow lands at a JOU prerelease you shouldn't be surprised that someone at least asks you why you're doing that, and it's really arbitrary to call one kind of thing assholish while already disregarding rules for whatever reason to any extent. I don't really care what you do personally - for me it's easier to make a habit of playing the game by the rules at any of level of play because it's less stuff to remember. Zoness fucked around with this message at 17:00 on Apr 24, 2014 |
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Apr 24, 2014 16:54
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Korak posted:He brought up that ruling and was talking about how even if its revealed it is still in your hand and legal to be put back with brainstorm. Right, and since it must remain revealed until the game moves to the draw step or the Hussar moves into another zone the opponent knows that the Hussar was put back on top of the library so they can't fake having a second by putting it back in their hand and then saying it was a second one.
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Apr 24, 2014 16:57
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Korak posted:He brought up that ruling and was talking about how even if its revealed it is still in your hand and legal to be put back with brainstorm. This is correct, what I think is confusing is that on the initial description it sounded like his line of play was "Forecast Hussar, Brainstorm, put two cards back, Forecast again since you can't prove I didn't draw another Hussar off the Brainstorm  ". That play is cheaty, but it sounds like "Forecast Hussar, Brainstorm while the draw is on the stack, put Hussar back as the top card, draw off the Forecast resolving, then Forecast the 'new' Hussar" is valid. And if the quoted rule is accurate, the opponent should be able to see that Hussar is one of the cards you're putting back, but I guess the "new game object" idea applies here and you can re-Forecast since it left your hand and came back.
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Apr 24, 2014 17:02
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Count Bleck posted:You forgot the one guy who thinks he's hot poo poo. The drunk dudes in the corner are always good. No idea how they make playable decks at all.
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Apr 24, 2014 17:03
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Ableist Kinkshamer posted:You can definitely brainstorm in response to Sky Hussar's ability, put the Sky Hussar on top with brainstorm, draw the Sky Hussar when its ability resolves, then use it again though, right? Right. The Magic Comprehensive Rules posted:400.7. An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence.
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Apr 24, 2014 17:04
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KidDynamite posted:The drunk dudes in the corner are always good. No idea how they make playable decks at all. This is me, just FYI
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Apr 24, 2014 17:14
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Zoness posted:The issue is why would you bother doing that at any kind of tournament. Like I said, it's not enough to bother me personally, but I wouldn't espouse doing it because it would probably run afoul of someone at some point. I didn't even think playing snow lands in a prerelease was like, the topic of discussion when the guy posted about buying lands, but the abstract concept of playing snow lands in a non-coldsnap limited event to me it's like the same kind of thing issue as pile shuffling to "reduce randomness" in that anything that involves going through extra effort to purportedly not actually accomplish something seems reasonably suspect at some level. And realistically, prereleases are likely to have people not even intentionally misplaying rules / misrepresenting board states due to lack of familiarity with the cards so it's not unreasonable for someone to just point out this kind of thing. It's entirely possible that someone that hadn't seen the spoiler at a prerelease thinks snow is a set mechanic. Sure, that kind of player isn't likely to raise concerns with regards to limited deck composition, but they might ask someone else, etc. The key concept here is subjectivity though. It takes all of a nanosecond to process a given situation and act appropriately. Yeah in a vacuum it's easier to adhere to the hard and fast rules no matter what, but in reality people are humans capable of critical thought and application of that aforementioned subjectivity. If you're at a casual local game store doing a prerelease in which no cards interact with the "snow" aspect and the dude playing them in clearly a guy who's treating them like normal lands and just doesn't know better then there's no reason to say a word. It's not that hard to just read the atmosphere and understand intentions. Just behave like a sensible human being and don't raise a stink on anyone who doesn't really deserve it, just generally speaking.
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Apr 24, 2014 17:19
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Zoness posted:The issue is why would you bother doing that at any kind of tournament. Like I said, it's not enough to bother me personally, but I wouldn't espouse doing it because it would probably run afoul of someone at some point. I didn't even think playing snow lands in a prerelease was like, the topic of discussion when the guy posted about buying lands, but the abstract concept of playing snow lands in a non-coldsnap limited event to me it's like the same kind of thing issue as pile shuffling to "reduce randomness" in that anything that involves going through extra effort to purportedly not actually accomplish something seems reasonably suspect at some level. And realistically, prereleases are likely to have people not even intentionally misplaying rules / misrepresenting board states due to lack of familiarity with the cards so it's not unreasonable for someone to just point out this kind of thing. It's entirely possible that someone that hadn't seen the spoiler at a prerelease thinks snow is a set mechanic. Sure, that kind of player isn't likely to raise concerns with regards to limited deck composition, but they might ask someone else, etc. I had no idea. I got them for fun. I never expected be able to play them outside of casual fun stuff and I entirely forgot about the weird Coldsnap cards that rely on Snow-Covered. I'm still learning the FNM rules and stuff and I'll try not to gently caress up.
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Apr 24, 2014 17:20
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Mezzanon posted:This is me, just FYI This is my friend, he drinks during every midnight pre-release to maintain his sanity. Highlight of this is in his born of the gods sealed he pulled chromanticore and just stood on his chair, waved it around roaring it's name in his gravelly voice. T-Shaped posted:I had no idea. I got them for fun. I never expected be able to play them outside of casual fun stuff and I entirely forgot about the weird Coldsnap cards that rely on Snow-Covered. I'm still learning the FNM rules and stuff and I'll try not to gently caress up. Pre-releases are probably the most laid back sanctioned event where everyone is learning how the new cards interact. Just remember to drink regularly, have good hygiene and just really having fun is all that matters. Samael fucked around with this message at 17:25 on Apr 24, 2014 |
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Apr 24, 2014 17:22
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Gumdrop Larry posted:The key concept here is subjectivity though. It takes all of a nanosecond to process a given situation and act appropriately. Yeah in a vacuum it's easier to adhere to the hard and fast rules no matter what, but in reality people are humans capable of critical thought and application of that aforementioned subjectivity. If you're at a casual local game store doing a prerelease in which no cards interact with the "snow" aspect and the dude playing them in clearly a guy who's treating them like normal lands and just doesn't know better then there's no reason to say a word. It's not that hard to just read the atmosphere and understand intentions. Just behave like a sensible human being and don't raise a stink on anyone who doesn't really deserve it, just generally speaking. Do you also think 2explores is just an honest player who messes up a lot? A lot of sensible human beings got cheated out by him, and it's my opinion that being a sensible human being and playing Tournament Wizard Poker do not go hand in hand. Now before you call that statement the equivalent of a Wizard Poker Witch Hunt, my view is that it's certainly unreasonable to use the example of a particularly dishonest player to justify being somewhat overall paranoid but my point is that it puts everyone at peace of mind if everyone just makes an effort to introduce as little outside shenanigans as possible, because at the end of the day we all just want to play the game. People don't decide to just start cheating in the feature match area. I'm not seeing anyone that breaks any tiny rule as a cheater - I just don't want to have to think about it - and I'm sure my opponents don't either - so if we all just play as tightly as possible, nobody has to bother with that kind of stuff. At a tournament (as opposed to a money draft or whatever), I'm not going out of my way to judge someone's playing ability by what kind of magic player stereotype they fit into because I always give my opponent the benefit of the doubt with regards to their ability and knowledge on both ends of the spectrum. If I break a rule that I don't notice and they do, I expect them to call a judge on me as a courtesy, and I'd do the same, even at a prerelease, especially at a prerelease because I remember messing up a lot of interactions with newer cards at my first prerelease which was Lorwyn, since learning about it would be my benefit in the long run. Like, I don't think of a Judge call as something serious with intent to punish your opponent for messing, especially at the prerelease/fnm level. Sure, there's some courtesy calls to be made with regards to judge availability, but my point here is that clarity is important for both players. I used to play pretty sloppily because I was (and still am) a pretty bad player (lol missing 3 sharding sphinx triggers in a row at the ALA prerelease), but having played with some players who taught me how to tighten up my play has really only made me enjoy magic more when I actually do play it. It's nice to not deal with crap on either end of the table and to be able to habitually not miss triggers and may effects. Zoness fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Apr 24, 2014 |
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Apr 24, 2014 17:31
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T-Shaped posted:I had no idea. I got them for fun. I never expected be able to play them outside of casual fun stuff and I entirely forgot about the weird Coldsnap cards that rely on Snow-Covered. I'm still learning the FNM rules and stuff and I'll try not to gently caress up. Hey now, Ice Age and Alliances actually utilized snow stuff also! Just not as well. Except maybe Winter's Night in an EDH deck I guess. That might be decent if you can actually somehow get past the slowdown thing. Mercury Crusader fucked around with this message at 17:39 on Apr 24, 2014 |
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Apr 24, 2014 17:37
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What's that website that shows the most valuable cards for sets as like, relatively sized images? My B&N has a lot of different boosters and I have a gift card burning a hole in my wallet since December so I'm just going to buy some packs and rip them open for fun.
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