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Taking cheap ATGMs/manpads tends to be a good way to get lots of cheap helicopters too.
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Apr 24, 2014 19:37
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Davin Valkri posted:But Centurions suuuuuuck. Takes 23 AP HEAT to oneshot is a pretty cool ability for a 15 point tank. 23 AP HEAT isn't the cheapest thing for Redfor, and is basically confined to Soviet infantry, Soviet/Chinese tank destroyers, Soviet/Chinese helicopters (not cheap ones for the sovs either), and airpower.
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Apr 24, 2014 19:38
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Shanakin posted:STRF 9040B thanks. Also wasn't there an export version with a 120mm smooth bore on it? That could be fun in the VHC section, run alongside the IKV-91 Neither of these are in and nor is the CV 90105 (all OOTF, of course), but IIRC there'll be an Ikv 91 with a 105mm L7 gun on it (same gun as on the Leopard 1's/Centurions etc). The 103D will probably also be in but I have no idea what kind of stats they'll give it. I resigned as a marshal so I'm just leaking what I remember from preliminary discussions here. IIRC Norway will get at least some useful things, but Denmark is of course pretty shafted as usual. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Apr 24, 2014 |
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Apr 24, 2014 19:45
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xthetenth posted:Takes 23 AP HEAT to oneshot is a pretty cool ability for a 15 point tank. 23 AP HEAT isn't the cheapest thing for Redfor, and is basically confined to Soviet infantry, Soviet/Chinese tank destroyers, Soviet/Chinese helicopters (not cheap ones for the sovs either), and airpower. It's also one of the slowest units in the game, has terrible autonomy and an awful gun. They're good at being meatshields, sure, but it seems like Scandinavia won't have anything to do the actual killing, outside of M113 mounted TOW2s.
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Apr 24, 2014 20:21
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Dezztroy posted:It's also one of the slowest units in the game, has terrible autonomy and an awful gun. They're good at being meatshields, sure, but it seems like Scandinavia won't have anything to do the actual killing, outside of M113 mounted TOW2s. They're pretty awesome for scattering cheap ablative stuff that can slow things down. I also like putting cheap stuff like them just a bit closer to the enemy to mess with attack moves and tanks firing on the move.
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Apr 24, 2014 22:18
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I refuse to use tanks that slow for chaff. And believe me I love chaff. You need some higher speed to really roll up a position or even to keep up with the IFVs - but sticking to roads is suicide between planes,artillery, and the limited attack corridors offered. If you want to get close to a position, smoke will always be cheaper and more effective than spam tanks. I still find T-34s acceptable but for the most part I favor the 20-30 point range for chaff units these days. AMX-13 Recon, T-55L/equivalents (20% stab), etc. quote:Where exactly should I be placing my recon vehicles? Try not to put them right next to combat units, as it increases the odds of getting shelled by accident. Always try to include a recon unit in any attacks you conduct, as there is nothing quite as annoying as getting all your stuff blown up by ATGM infantry you cant see. TheDeadlyShoe fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Apr 24, 2014 |
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Apr 24, 2014 22:41
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Shanakin posted:Did you get that .dat export done at any point? To be honest it exports XML fine and the localisations fine and we haven't really encountered anything else we need particularly. Don't worry about the web stuff, that's kind of getting started slowly. Oh yeah I forgot I said I was going to do that. However as soon as I read that I suddenly was inspired as to the right way to do this so here you go! Just give it a path to a .dat only and it'll spit out a ton of files. It will now save files into the directory structure they had inside the .dat file instead of all lose in the same folder. It currently doesn't even try to export anything but NDF files and DIC files, though I could probably get it to do some of the other formats the modding tools understand if there's a desire for that. As noted in the help text there's a stray .shc file sitting in ZZ_Win.dat that confuses the moddingSuite thing because it thinks it's an NDF file but it isn't, so the exporter gives you a warning due to an internal call crapping out. Ignore that one.
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Apr 24, 2014 23:07
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power crystals posted:Oh yeah I forgot I said I was going to do that. However as soon as I read that I suddenly was inspired as to the right way to do this so here you go! Just give it a path to a .dat only and it'll spit out a ton of files. It will now save files into the directory structure they had inside the .dat file instead of all lose in the same folder. It currently doesn't even try to export anything but NDF files and DIC files, though I could probably get it to do some of the other formats the modding tools understand if there's a desire for that. Cool. Thanks, that should be handy. Meanwhile here's what I've been spending far too much time doing.  Yes, I do believe that's every infantry MG in the game.  Not every vehicle MMG in the game though, I got bored at that point Shanakin fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Apr 24, 2014 |
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Apr 24, 2014 23:15
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Superb work as always, Shanakin.
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Apr 24, 2014 23:16
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Holy...those 770 range LMGs are actually good?! Why did no one tell me?! Just for kicks, somebody should make just one last addition to the table: a column for which units use which machine gun. Most US infantry use that M60 at the bottom down there, right?
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Apr 24, 2014 23:20
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I've narrowed down my recon bucket list to: *Cheap vehicles with 'good' optics. You can get 8 or more of them per card for like 15-20pts each and they are mainly good for covering open areas such as watching roads and flanks, but also good for mixing in with an attack due to their speed over recon infantry. *Recon infantry, preferably shock quality or better for more movement speed. They are more survivable and better at spotting unit in cover. *Exceptional optics chopper. Has the best spotting range against unit in cover for when recon infantry can't manage it, but you need to clear the way if there's AA about.
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Apr 24, 2014 23:23
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Davin Valkri posted:Just for kicks, somebody should make just one last addition to the table: a column for which units use which machine gun. Most US infantry use that M60 at the bottom down there, right? Yep. There's a sorta half-assed push to get the US Rifleman 90's to rock the M240. I'd be in support of course :P
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Apr 24, 2014 23:25
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Davin Valkri posted:Holy...those 770 range LMGs are actually good?! Why did no one tell me?! The M60 and PKM, the two worst machine guns are both very common, and both very, very bad. edit: see that KSP m/58 LMG? That's the one the swedish reservists have and it's essentially a WW2 BAR rifle (from memory).
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Apr 24, 2014 23:26
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Shanakin posted:The M60 and PKM, the two worst machine guns are both very common, and both very, very bad. And here I was thinking that 980m range on a machine gun was a good thing. Looks like aside from the MG3 it's a sign of low damage. Pfeh! At least I know my Hemvarnsman still rock the casbah!  Also, are the Minimi and stuff like it listed in the game files as 5.45mm, or is that just a typo?
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Apr 24, 2014 23:29
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Mukip posted:I've narrowed down my recon bucket list to: I generally agree with this. However, I will say that lately I've found myself trying to use REC units in places where I would have used VEH units (wheeled auto-cannon, tank destroyer, ATGM platform) much more often since it seems like there are a lot more interesting boondoggles in RD with "good" optics. This mostly applies to BLUFOR, but REDFOR certainly has its cases as well (the BRDM-3 and the Chinese recon tank). I'm finding "organic" recon units to be really useful and effective, once you move past the idea that anything from the RECON tab is supposed to stay hidden and avoid fighting where possible. Likewise, there is some amazing high-punching infantry there.
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Apr 24, 2014 23:33
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:I refuse to use tanks that slow for chaff. And believe me I love chaff. You need some higher speed to really roll up a position or even to keep up with the IFVs - but sticking to roads is suicide between planes,artillery, and the limited attack corridors offered. They're excellent defensive chaff even if they're bad offensive chaff. My offensive chaff when I can get them is more likely to be stuff like the French wheel tanks and Ferret Entacs (although if I can get away with it that'll usually be most of my attack). Then again one of my most common decks is a blufor motorized deck where basically all my tanks are what would be called chaff in other decks, so I have room for a card of purely defensive chaff that's there so I can make it slower to push into me and give my infantry time to move and/or give me time to concentrate the rolly tanks to counterpush and screen them when they get there. Speaking of which, Ferret Entacs are literally the best thing ever. 20 points to get an incredibly fast platform for a 20 AP power missile is super neat, but for some reason it can fire the entacs on the move for optimal  action. Driving a convoy of wheeled vehicles screaming into the enemy backfield has never been this fun before!Hubis posted:I generally agree with this. Danish Jaegers for life. There is nothing in this world that beats 300 kph helicopters full of spec ops infantry with SMGs and I.MG 3s for 35 points total. I mean really. xthetenth fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Apr 24, 2014 |
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Apr 24, 2014 23:37
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Davin Valkri posted:And here I was thinking that 980m range on a machine gun was a good thing. Looks like aside from the MG3 it's a sign of low damage. Pfeh! At least I know my Hemvarnsman still rock the casbah! Typo. Mostly. There is a 5.45mm ammo type
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Apr 24, 2014 23:40
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Wait, the M240 and the Minimi have different stats?  Man, that is amazing/depressing to see such a huge stat swing on those machine guns. I mean, what happened to the wargame concept that a machine gun is a machine gun and we don't need to get too worked about which one you get?
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Apr 24, 2014 23:43
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Arglebargle III posted:Wait, the M240 and the Minimi have different stats? They have different stats in the armoury so I'm not sure why you would think they were the same.
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Apr 24, 2014 23:50
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Arglebargle III posted:Wait, the M240 and the Minimi have different stats? As Shanakin said, but also the Minimi (M249 in US service) is a .223 caliber (5.56mm) light machine gun whereas the M240 is a .30 cal medium machine gun and known outside US service as the FN MAG. The M240 was selected around 1990 as the new medium machine gun for the US Army, winning out over the M60, which is why it's really annoying to see units like Delta Force and Riflemen using M60 variants especially since given the crappy MG balance they are so drat awful. Though that said I don't think the M60 was supposed to be bad; I think Eugen just didn't fully grasp the impact of in-game stats. Dandywalken, if you can convince Eugen to give Riflemen the M240 or M249, I and many others would be very grateful. e: Just fixing the machine gun balance so that they're all even would be better though. Perhaps just moving to each faction having one "good" CQC MG for shock/elite and one "bad" non-CQC MG for line/militia with equal stats across the board would be ideal. Mortabis fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Apr 25, 2014 |
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Apr 24, 2014 23:56
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Shanakin posted:They have different stats in the armoury so I'm not sure why you would think they were the same. "The M249 version of the Minimi was adopted by the US military in 1982(...)". I assume it's a case of reality stating "Uh, these are the same gun guys" vs. stats in game being different? Edit: Beaten and made the M240 vs 249 mistake. This is why I'm playing Street Fighter now 
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Apr 24, 2014 23:56
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Yup thought he minimi was the same. Oh well. 
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Apr 25, 2014 00:01
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I should mention that I'm actually pretty happy with how artillery is working out except the problem with smaller guns not having a role. Mostly when I or people on my team complain about artillery it's "this artillery is making my static position untenable" which was its purpose all along. The ATACMS and smerch while maybe bullshit have found themselves mostly in a gently caress YOU COUNTERBATTERY  button role which I don't think anybody expected in Beta. When I play against us I have to remind myself that the counterbattery is coming and it's going to be nasty. A huge improvement from the first day of closed beta and an actually viable meta, I think, even if it does accidentally gib a low flying plane once in a while. Wish there was a good altitude indicator btw, list a Rafale that was way up there killing an evacuating Su -27 and thus looked mutch closer to my lines than it actually was. It came down to circle and was well over the line and promptly ate a couple Iglas. I should follow my own advice and evac when I look away.
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Apr 25, 2014 00:09
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Mortabis posted:As Shanakin said, but also the Minimi (M249 in US service) is a .223 caliber (5.56mm) light machine gun whereas the M240 is a .30 cal medium machine gun and known outside US service as the FN MAG. supposedly the Navy used M60 variants for a lot longer as the M60E3, since smaller SEAL teams could give them impression of having a lot more firepower than the enemy thought since 7.62 is a loud motherfucker out of such a short barrel, and I'm sure it was used throughout USASOC. Nowadays we got the Mk48, but it makes sense that units that typically operate in small teams get a shortened GPMG versus an automatic rifle What the need to do is buff suppression on the M60 shorty, since that is the entire idea behind using a shorty GPMG over a SAW: the higher caliber and louder muzzle report scares the enemy into thinking they are dealing with a machine gun team or platoon sized element. Also, make Rangers into shock infantry, give them the Gustav M3 and a Minimi, and give Deltas the Flash. Make a new 5 man recon team called LRS and give them the McMillan and grenade launcher thing (target interdiction with the sniper rifle and a weapon to break contact with would be things a LRS team would have). Get rid of Mountaineers completely; Light Infantry fills both roles since 10th Mountain and the 82d ABN are both in the 18th ABN Corp anyway, and the 82d's Aviation Brigade has shithooks too. I feel like giving the US too much unit variety/redundancy would be unfair to other nations but then you look at loving France and get mad at their roster. EUGEN!!!! Justin Tyme fucked around with this message at 00:20 on Apr 25, 2014 |
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Apr 25, 2014 00:11
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Shanakin posted:edit: see that KSP m/58 LMG? That's the one the swedish reservists have and it's essentially a WW2 BAR rifle (from memory). 
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Apr 25, 2014 00:14
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I kind of want to include a suppression/s value or something on that but it's not as immediately simple as it sounds and morale stuff is kind of... a black box.
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Apr 25, 2014 00:15
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TheFluff posted:The Swedish reservists have Kg m/37 which is indeed a license-produced BAR with some modifications (see link, it's in English). Ksp m/58 is a FN MAG chambered for 6.5×55mm (the Swedish Mauser caliber) and IIRC it's only used by the Kustjägare. Ksp m/58B is the same weapon but rechambered for 7.62mm NATO, and it's used by everyone else. Thanks, I mixed them up. ---- For what it's worth, this is what I think suppression stats look like... it's complicated. Also even if this is correct, I have no idea how worthwhile it actually is etc.  edit: I forgot to put accuracy into the suppression stat so uh that's at 100% CTH. Shanakin fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Apr 25, 2014 |
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Apr 25, 2014 00:29
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Justin Tyme posted:supposedly the Navy used M60 variants for a lot longer as the M60E3, since smaller SEAL teams could give them impression of having a lot more firepower than the enemy thought since 7.62 is a loud motherfucker out of such a short barrel, and I'm sure it was used throughout USASOC. Nowadays we got the Mk48, but it makes sense that units that typically operate in small teams get a shortened GPMG versus an automatic rifle I'd be happier if all the machine guns are pretty much the same honestly, it would be better than Eugen trying to put faction flavor into them again and loving up the balance even more. Re: unit names, I've been arguing instead for just turning Deltas into Rangers, giving them a better AT weapon, then turning Rangers into Cav Scouts and cutting their training level to "regular." Then they can get an M113 as a transport, too, which would let you take them in an amphibious transport if for some reason you ever want to. Presumably the Carl G would also get replaced with an AT4. While I'm talking about renaming US infantry, "TACOM" and "Assault Engineers" are pretty loving stupid names. The fact that a BAR in a Swedish rechambering is one of the best machine guns in the game is downright hilarious. It was a bad weapon in 1939. edit: check this out http://www.wargame-ee.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=155&t=44406 Can you imagine how much whining it would have saved them if they'd just given us PATRIOT with the I-HAWK pip 3's stats instead of the I-HAWK pip 3? Seriously. There were like 40 loving threads about it. It would have also made it easier to distinguish the good AA from the bad. They probably just didn't want to make a new model. Comanche isn't on there. Crushed dreams 
Mortabis fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Apr 25, 2014 |
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Apr 25, 2014 00:30
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Patriot is not a mobile system. Technically KuB isn't either but Patriot is a little out of the scope of the game. It's more like an SA-7 site than a BuK.
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Apr 25, 2014 00:51
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who cares, its awesome.
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Apr 25, 2014 00:57
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I'm not even slightly upset about PATRIOT at this point just because the I-HAWK pip 3 is basically what it would have been. I'm just amused that all this stuff about "out of game scale" was not the actual reason they didn't include it. It indicates to me that the Eugen forum conventional wisdom is severely off the mark much of the time.
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Apr 25, 2014 01:00
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By the way, Shanakin, since I'm sure this would come up if you brought your data to the forums and stuff now, is the CtH/distance relationship such that you can tell the DPS for all the machine guns at 980, 875, and 770 meters? I mean, it's still good right now, but showing how bad the M60/PKM would still suck at 770 meters might help your case even more.
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Apr 25, 2014 01:21
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Mortabis posted:I'm not even slightly upset about PATRIOT at this point just because the I-HAWK pip 3 is basically what it would have been. I'm just amused that all this stuff about "out of game scale" was not the actual reason they didn't include it. It indicates to me that the Eugen forum conventional wisdom is severely off the mark much of the time. Believe it or not, the out-of-scale WAS sort of part of it. They originally wanted to do entrenched infantry positions/teams (HMG, GMG, Mortar teams etc) as well as a few BIG SAM's like the Patriot and S-300. However, naval was decided to be the focus instead.
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Apr 25, 2014 01:46
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Dandywalken posted:Believe it or not, the out-of-scale WAS sort of part of it. They originally wanted to do entrenched infantry positions/teams (HMG, GMG, Mortar teams etc) as well as a few BIG SAM's like the Patriot and S-300. However, naval was decided to be the focus instead. while making Company of Heroes in a larger environment would have been really cool (ignoring the aneurysm-inducing levels of micro it would entail on top of the general motorized/air gameplay) I don't even want to fathom how poo poo the implementation would be with the infantry-as-reskinned-jeeps mechanic they got going on, if they opened the constructables Pandora's box An infantry 60mm mortar team would be cool though, basically an airlifted Serval.
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Apr 25, 2014 02:06
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I really hope they add in sounds for ships moving at some point; it's really weird to zoom in all the way on a ship and having it just be completely silent.
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Apr 25, 2014 02:39
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I feel I have a pretty good handle on all the strengths of all the nations in game but I'm having difficulty pinning down Japan's focus. Any hints?
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Apr 25, 2014 02:42
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Mortabis posted:The fact that a BAR in a Swedish rechambering is one of the best machine guns in the game is downright hilarious. It was a bad weapon in 1939. It's not even in the top half. 
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Apr 25, 2014 02:43
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KSP m/58B: 6 out of 17 KSP m/58: 6 out of 13 Granted the KG m/37 is 11 out of 17 for CQC mgs, but that's a militia unit's weapon. xthetenth fucked around with this message at 03:01 on Apr 25, 2014 |
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Apr 25, 2014 02:50
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xthetenth posted:KSP m/58B: 6 out of 17
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Apr 25, 2014 02:54
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xthetenth posted:KSP m/58B: 6 out of 17 So is the MG3  I would hope that the KSP m/58B would be good, since it's only used by one of the most costly infantry units in the game.
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Apr 25, 2014 02:56
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