|
Hi, I'm a Canadian goon who actually has a job, but I'm not sure if the way they're calculating my pay is normal considering how negotiations went down. I negotiated 46k including benefits. What my employer is doing is subtracting THEIR contribution from CPP and EI and medical from my pay and giving me $46k - CPP (employer) - EI (employer) - medical (employer) = $41k, from which I furthermore make my contributions to all three. So I'm actually listed as making $41k even though I thought I had negotiated $46k. Is that normal?
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2014 01:01
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 06:50 |
|
|
Thanks for the awesome advice! Sent back a counter of $46,000 plus asked about stocks, ended up getting both. This thread is the best!
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2014 01:34
|
|
|
Supplanter posted:Hi, I'm a Canadian goon who actually has a job, but I'm not sure if the way they're calculating my pay is normal considering how negotiations went down. That's pretty standard for North Korea I believe. But definitely not normal in the States.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2014 02:42
|
|
|
What did this mean to you when you were negotiating, Supplanter? "I negotiated 46k including benefits" Normally you don't calculate total salary to include employer contributions, but when you say 46k including benefits, it sounds a little weird. I feel like this has come up before in one of these threads regarding a similar issue in Australia with their mandatory pension contributions.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2014 02:52
|
|
|
To tell the truth I thought I was just negotiating the $46k part, but when it came time to sign the papers it said 'your rate of pay for this position will be 46k,(comma theirs) including benefits. Your benefits will include...' which sounds like I'm getting $46k as well as benefits. However I have been reading more of the documents I was sent and I'm just noticing they say that to clarify $46k including benefits with the company's contribution to be paid by the employee... which is definitely bad news for me. On my initial reading I must have thought it was talking about MY contributions, which I already knew I was going to make. I can see I've made a mistake here, although my manager knows I'm not happy about it and will probably bump my pay up to what I had requested, I will certainly miss out on a couple months back pay. In the future I will definitely read everything more carefully, I guess I just wanted to know if anyone had encountered CPP or EI payments as negotiable benefits before, since that seems really strange to me.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2014 03:14
|
|
|
Supplanter posted:To tell the truth I thought I was just negotiating the $46k part, but when it came time to sign the papers it said 'your rate of pay for this position will be 46k,(comma theirs) including benefits. Your benefits will include...' which sounds like I'm getting $46k as well as benefits. However I have been reading more of the documents I was sent and I'm just noticing they say that to clarify $46k including benefits with the company's contribution to be paid by the employee... which is definitely bad news for me. On my initial reading I must have thought it was talking about MY contributions, which I already knew I was going to make. Your CPP and EI will always be deducted from your pay, unless you're saying they're deducting two separate CPP and EI amounts? The former is normal, the latter is very weird. The benefits thing could I guess be negotiated that way, but it's unusual and not clear. Can you provide a numerical example of what a detailed pay stub looks like? (Base pay, deductions, net, etc.). I'm Canadian and would have a good idea of what each item should be. It sounds to me more like they gave you a lovely, duplicitous, contract. You have every right to go back and tell them what you understood to be negotiating (46,000 of base pay). They'll most likely tell you tough luck, particularly if the contract was clear on this. If you want more ammo, go find an alternate job, and have that in your back pocket when you go in to discuss.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2014 03:43
|
|
|
Yes, CPP and EI are essentially deducted twice, although this deduction would only show up once on my pay stub as my salary is listed as being ~$41k. Hell, I wouldn't even mind paying all my medical (my only other benefit) if I only had to pay CPP and EI once.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2014 03:52
|
|
|
Supplanter posted:Yes, CPP and EI are essentially deducted twice, although this deduction would only show up once on my pay stub as my salary is listed as being ~$41k. Hell, I wouldn't even mind paying all my medical (my only other benefit) if I only had to pay CPP and EI once. Yeah, that sounds like they were trying to screw you around as it's a pretty uncommon way to discuss compensation and you're probably not the first one taken in by it. Depending on the tone and if your discussions don't work out you could consider taking it to your provincial labour board if you don't have a job alternative. Personally I'd find something else to do somewhere else as they don't sound like a great place to work.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2014 04:10
|
|
|
My supervisor who drafted the contract is normally a researcher, and I honestly believe he just has a poor grasp of hiring, and communicated what he was doing poorly. I see he tried to contact about this arrangement when he felt he had been unclear, but he misunderstood the meaning of 'take home pay' and used it interchangeably with 'salary' which lead to further confusion. The documents I signed also go back and forth on the matter, so I have a case against him. I think if I complain to his boss I will be compensated back pay and my pay adjusted accordingly. I don't want to land my supervisor in too much hot water, since he is a nice guy and I believe this was an honest mistake on his part (I realize I sound naive here). Anyway, thanks to everyone for letting me know this is pretty wonky. Now I feel I can pursue this much more aggressively.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2014 12:39
|
|
|
Supplanter posted:My supervisor who drafted the contract is normally a researcher, and I honestly believe he just has a poor grasp of hiring, and communicated what he was doing poorly. I see he tried to contact about this arrangement when he felt he had been unclear, but he misunderstood the meaning of 'take home pay' and used it interchangeably with 'salary' which lead to further confusion. The documents I signed also go back and forth on the matter, so I have a case against him. I think if I complain to his boss I will be compensated back pay and my pay adjusted accordingly. I don't want to land my supervisor in too much hot water, since he is a nice guy and I believe this was an honest mistake on his part (I realize I sound naive here). That might make sense. EI premiums & CPP contributions are not benefits by any reasonable definition. The programs qualify as benefits or entitlements when they pay out, but writing benefits on an offer letter doesn't change the obligation of the employer to get this right. It sounds like your supervisor is confusing your cost as an employee with your salary. Do you have a T1 or a job offer which lists your annual salary at 46k? If it says 46k on the T1, and you are being deducted for 140% of your obligation, your EI over-contributions will be recoverable at tax time for you. That said, if the employer messed this up, they could well mess up your T4's, and you should get this sorted out sooner rather than later. It's in your employers best interest to resolve this soon, since CRA can slap hefty fines down for getting this sort of thing wrong. They don't want it to come up in an audit. Since it sounds like a question of confusion and not malice, I'd get on it ASAP.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2014 15:58
|
|
|
Yeah if it's an honest to god fuckup then hopefully your boss will be happy to correct. If he doesn't though am you shouldn't be afraid to escalate it as it's a pretty lovely deal for you.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2014 20:54
|
|
|
To update my situation - they're removing the CPP & EI double payments and making it retroactive, so I should be getting my back-pay. Hooray!
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2014 02:25
|
|
|
I am in a weird situation. I’ve been an IT Technician for a small company in San Diego County for the last 6 months. My boss was a Sysadmin and together we comprised the entire IT department. I was hired through a contracting agency, and the company I was on contract with approved my position to hire me on as permanent about a month ago. About the same time that this happened, my boss took another job and left the company, with 3 weeks notice. I ended up being trained to take over his responsibilities. It’s been a few weeks since my boss left - I am now the sole IT person at my company. I have sysadmin duties (managing servers and storage and backups, providing helpdesk support for 60 employees, managing relationships with technology vendors/consultants, ordering supplies, managing/implementing IT projects, being on call for emergencies, generally being a 1-man IT department, etc) despite the fact that I was hired as an IT Technician. My salary increased from $40k/yr on contract to $55k/yr full-time with benefits, which is in the middle of the IT technician range ($48-62k/yr). The sysadmin range is $80-105k/yr. I don’t expect to get exactly what my boss was making because I don't have his years of experience--nonetheless, my pay range and job description (IT tech) doesn’t really match my duties (IT tech + sysadmin). There was no formal negotiation process, partially because my employer didn’t bring it up, and because I felt uncomfortable and didn't know what was appropriate for this kind of situation. They pretty much handed me an offer letter and told me to sign it. To add more complexity, a new general manager will be hired in 6 months, and he will ultimately decide if I stay in this role, be hired as a sysadmin, or if they'll hire someone else on to fill it. My new supervisor (the GM) hasn't given me any guidance as to the nature of my role. I don't really know what is expected of me. After expressing this to him, he suggested negotiating a new description with a possible temp pay raise as appropriate until the next manager is hired. I've had other people (within the company and out) explain to me that this whole situation sounded unfair, and I’m honestly not sure. I guess I'm looking for perspective or advice. Is there room for negotiation here? How do I approach this?
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2014 23:33
|
|
|
engine driver posted:I am in a weird situation. 1. Do what he asked. 2. Kick rear end as temporary manager. 3. Ask to interview for manager position. 4. Profit.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2014 00:46
|
|
|
Sarcasmatron posted:1. Do what he asked. This is exactly right. Even if you don't get the open manager role at your current job you'll be able to put all those skills on your resume so you can interview for it somewhere else.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2014 06:51
|
|
|
Supplanter posted:To update my situation - they're removing the CPP & EI double payments and making it retroactive, so I should be getting my back-pay. Hooray! Great to hear! Does that mean you'll be getting the $46,000 salary going forward? corkskroo posted:This is exactly right. Even if you don't get the open manager role at your current job you'll be able to put all those skills on your resume so you can interview for it somewhere else. Yeah, sounds like your GM basically have you a pass to negotiate for more money, and if you can get yourself an improved title / job description it will give you some good ammo to either take the job permanently or find a new one elsewhere at the increased seniority level.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2014 08:50
|
|
|
Kalenn Istarion posted:Great to hear! Does that mean you'll be getting the $46,000 salary going forward? Yeah, it worked out for me. It seems like it was an honest mistake, and I was able to resolve the situation while keeping a happy workplace. Even when you're just resolving a mistake, a conversation of 'you screwed up my paperwork and now I want a few thousand more out of the budget!' is never an easy one to have.
|
|
#
?
Apr 26, 2014 01:25
|
|
|
I've been applying for entry level public sector transportation engineering jobs, and on Friday I was given an offer by hometown public works department for an internship with a virtual guarantee of full time employment within a year (and if for some reason it doesn't work out like that, I'm also returning to school for my master's and will have a year of experience so I'm ok with that). They've given me a deadline of close of business Monday to accept, and I intend to do so. However, I also interviewed strongly with a state DOT of a different state two weeks ago, and have not heard back from them. I'd prefer to take that job if offered because it's full time out of the gate and I'm interested in moving to the area. Is there any way to e-mail them to try to get an offer from them before I have to reply to the other job that doesn't completely sacrifice any position I have bargaining for salary? I feel like if I say "another job offered me, but I'm yours if you can offer me today" leaves me with absolutely zero leverage. Of course there's a strong chance that they won't be able to do that because this sort of stuff takes forever in the public sector, and there's also a chance this is all pointless because they already hired someone else and are just waiting for him to pass a drug test or whatever before sending rejections, but I figure trying is better than not trying.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2014 05:35
|
|
|
Big Ol Marsh Pussy posted:I've been applying for entry level public sector transportation engineering jobs, and on Friday I was given an offer by hometown public works department for an internship with a virtual guarantee of full time employment within a year (and if for some reason it doesn't work out like that, I'm also returning to school for my master's and will have a year of experience so I'm ok with that). They've given me a deadline of close of business Monday to accept, and I intend to do so. "I have received an offer with X deadline, but because your department is so xyz I would like to hear a response from you before I make my decision." However getting that turned around in 1 business day is a bit unlikely.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2014 12:28
|
|
|
Big Ol Marsh Pussy posted:I've been applying for entry level public sector transportation engineering jobs, and on Friday I was given an offer by hometown public works department for an internship with a virtual guarantee of full time employment within a year (and if for some reason it doesn't work out like that, I'm also returning to school for my master's and will have a year of experience so I'm ok with that). They've given me a deadline of close of business Monday to accept, and I intend to do so. Also, I wouldn't worry about salary leverage. Obviously it varies from state to state, but most states have published salary schedules and each job opening will be coded for a specific pay level. Check if your state has steps within each band. If so, you might be able to negotiate a higher step. Also, a lot of state employees are nominally unionized, which may or may not preclude salary negotiations.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2014 13:10
|
|
|
So I went through a series of interviews with a company back on the week of the 7th. I was called by the HR recruiter on the 14th, saying they would like to offer me the job, here are the benefits, pay, etc and that a formal offer letter would follow once I accepted the terms. I asked her to send over the detailed benefits information and I would get back to her. I did so the very next day, and countered 10k higher than what they were offering, which was 6k below what i'm making now. I was told that I should have a response within a week or so, so I waited. I waited until the 23rd and sent off a polite email reiterating my strong interest in the position and asking if any progress has been made on a response. Nothing yet. When should I follow up next, if at all?
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2014 16:38
|
|
|
They have passed on you.
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2014 22:07
|
|
|
It's likely that they've either moved on or are looking for someone that will take the job for cheaper, but you shouldn't give up until they get back to you as it's very poor form not to respond to someone who you've interviewed. If they don't get back to you I'd say you've been saved from working at a lovely company.
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2014 22:28
|
|
|
I'm about to leave my current job for the new one, and my old company has asked if I would be willing to do consulting on the side since there are certain processes i've built from the ground up, and they may need assistance from time to time. What terms should I iron out with them before accepting? Should I get my current salary (divided to a per hr. rate), or are there some guidelines for doing this sort of thing?
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2014 00:17
|
|
|
Ethanfr0me posted:I'm about to leave my current job for the new one, and my old company has asked if I would be willing to do consulting on the side since there are certain processes i've built from the ground up, and they may need assistance from time to time. What terms should I iron out with them before accepting? Should I get my current salary (divided to a per hr. rate), or are there some guidelines for doing this sort of thing? You'll already have a separate, full time job, so you will be giving up your personal time for this work on the side. Charge them a goddamn fortune.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2014 00:59
|
|
|
Charge at least what your new annual salary is but as an hourly rate. If you're making 80k/yr, charge at least $80/hr.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2014 01:01
|
|
|
Charge at least the loaded rate at your new job not just the hourly salary. So like $100+ probably.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2014 01:47
|
|
|
OldHansMoleman posted:Charge at least the loaded rate at your new job not just the hourly salary. So like $100+ probably. This. They don't have to pay their side of FICA*, and any benefits so you can charge an hourly rate of between 1.25 and 1.5 times what your salary would work out to and it will cost the company about the same amount as paying a salary employee. I would recommend going higher because you have valuable knowledge and there's an annoyance factor of having to work on your own time, but that's up to you. *Remember that as an independent contractor you have to pay both sides of FICA, actually a different act as self employed but the amount is the same, about 7.65%.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2014 03:22
|
|
|
Also keep in mind that they won't be paying you for slow days when you're sitting around with little to do, breaks, lunch, holidays, vacation, etc... So, yeah, much much more than your hourly rate. I'd say well over 100.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2014 06:49
|
|
|
If it's IT work, I haven't found a company to do specialized/skilled IT work for less than $195/hr in the last three years. You'd be a consultant, you'd be your own company, I would charge $150/hr or so at least.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2014 12:58
|
|
|
devmd01 posted:So I went through a series of interviews with a company back on the week of the 7th. I was called by the HR recruiter on the 14th, saying they would like to offer me the job, here are the benefits, pay, etc and that a formal offer letter would follow once I accepted the terms. I asked her to send over the detailed benefits information and I would get back to her. EugeneJ posted:They have passed on you. Man, that's lovely if true. And also scary since this isn't the first time I've heard of something like this happening recently. It kind of flies in the face of the whole "don't be afraid to negotiate!" thing.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2014 13:15
|
|
|
Were you willing to work for that company for $16,000 less than you currently make? Edit: Ah, the way it was worded I thought it was $16k less than current salary. $6000 is still a huge hit to take. That's like 3 years of decent raises provided you get raises at all. Spermy Smurf fucked around with this message at 13:45 on Apr 29, 2014 |
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2014 13:23
|
|
|
To clarify, their offer was 6k less than what I make currently, I was just trying to come out even or slightly ahead. Hell, even if they countered with an increase of 4k i'd be all over that, as their 401k matching would bring me back up to even. I couldn't do much less than that; my wife will be taking a year off starting in August for our first kid.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2014 13:40
|
|
|
devmd01 posted:To clarify, their offer was 6k less than what I make currently, I was just trying to come out even or slightly ahead. Hell, even if they countered with an increase of 4k i'd be all over that, as their 401k matching would bring me back up to even. I couldn't do much less than that; my wife will be taking a year off starting in August for our first kid. I'll say it again, if a company isn't willing to have an open discussion about what you're worth to them, they're not really the kind of place you're probably going to enjoy working. That said, it's always an option to take the offer you're given, it's just usually the sub-optimal one. Sorry if this one's gone away from you but I'm sure if you got yourself picked once you can do it again! Good luck.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2014 14:22
|
|
|
Ethanfr0me posted:I'm about to leave my current job for the new one, and my old company has asked if I would be willing to do consulting on the side since there are certain processes i've built from the ground up, and they may need assistance from time to time. What terms should I iron out with them before accepting? Should I get my current salary (divided to a per hr. rate), or are there some guidelines for doing this sort of thing? I work for a boutique consulting firm and our hourly rates are between $185-500/hr depending on the person and experience. Keep in mind that you also get to pay taxes on your consulting income. If you keep your rates high, they also won't bug you for dumb poo poo they should solve on their own. That keeps you sane.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2014 22:24
|
|
|
They finally got back to me, $1k under what I make now but i'm coming way ahead with benefits/matching, and it's a good step up in my career. Wooooo!
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2014 16:01
|
|
|
devmd01 posted:They finally got back to me, $1k under what I make now but i'm coming way ahead with benefits/matching, and it's a good step up in my career. Wooooo! It's great that everyone who checks in on this thread so far ends up doing well by aggressively negotiating. I'm sure in time it will end up with a total sob story, but it says a lot about how good your probabilities of success are with the track record we've collectively seen thus far.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2014 16:30
|
|
|
As a warning to people reading this thread: I did not negotiate my current job because it was the only job offer I got out of grad school and now I'm doing a job that I really like but doesn't pay nearly enough. The business plan (what passes for one around here) depends on me being here in 5 years, so I know they want to keep me. But I want to go in to salary negotiations here with another offer, so I'm currently looking for another job that I would like doing, just so I can negotiate for better pay at the one I am currently doing. Moral of the story is that I have to land two jobs because I did not negotiate for the first.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2014 20:12
|
|
|
Lots of people will advocate leaving unconditionally if you get a superior offer rather than using it as leverage at your current employer.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2014 20:18
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 06:50 |
|
|
Otto Skorzeny posted:Lots of people will advocate leaving unconditionally if you get a superior offer rather than using it as leverage at your current employer. You need to be fully willing to leave for the new job otherwise your negotiations will be pretty easy to poke holes in. Even if your underlying intent is to lever for improved positioning at your current job, if the alternative isn't sincere it will come through in the strength of your positioning. I mean, you can always bluff but unlike in poker you can't just reach into your pocket and reload when you get called.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2014 21:16
|
|