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Yeah one thing that even I lost sight of was that if you shut down the enemy helo rush with AA helos you can just instead move in with ground based forces instead of choppers with a premium. This means you get more dudes in houses and greater forces overall and't don't need to devote precious slots/AP to paratroopers that will be only really be used at the very start of the game. Edit: Looks like a steealth change; CSSR Su-25 is now the same as the soviet one. 
Xerxes17 fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Apr 30, 2014 |
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Apr 30, 2014 17:30
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General Battuta posted:I win all my Conquest games by parking AA choppers over the forward zones and then driving 4-stacks of Reservists into them forever. Spice with cheap AA and the occasional ATGM/kill team. I don't know if the players I'm facing are inept or if this is just the meta right now. This was my exact Red Dragon deck for like a full week in beta, and it really is dumb. At the time I used 6 J-7H instead of arty or napalm though, but the effect was the same. 1. Smoke inroads w/ mortar fire 2. Dump 12-16 reservists, and maybe a few VTT-323 Strelas worth of line for the punch 3. Lock enemy infantry in place with BUCKWILDS 4. Bomb everything. 5. Rinse 6. Repeat on next town/village. The whole concept is flexible like you said, but it really is broken in the situations where you have a good minute of downtime between each push... which is a vast percentage of games, especially if you won your starting position. As for the ALB infantry balance, what I had heard was everything was balanced across the board, MGs were all essentially mirrored, and rifles scaled in such a way they balanced out. Why they threw that away immediately I never loving understood. Also, on the Mi-17/Mi-8TVK front, they were actually always worth taking over regular Mi-8s for one simple reason, their rocket spread was much tighter even when missing, so you got much more guaranteed suppression. Back in EE, they were loving amazing to the point they got their price raised from 25-30 to 50 towards the end. I used to put VZPU in them and go CV hunting, and god it worked too well betweeen 3 HE elite infantry and one of those hovering somewhere nearby. RD they got overshadowed by just massing rockets, but they were always still a bit better, especially at cracking vehicles like APCs. Mazz fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Apr 30, 2014 |
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Apr 30, 2014 18:08
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Arglebargle III posted:I was thinking about this just this morning. They made more and better ATGMs available, jacked up the price of must-have anti-helicopter AA like the Tunguska-M, nerfed radar AA and the result is you have to spend like a minimum of 500 points to get a handful of tanks, three AA pieces that might have a chance of protecting them but are probably inadequate, and your armored recon. And if you gently caress up even slightly, 100 points of ATGMs can kill all that over the span of one minute. God help you if you need that AA because it will probably not protect you. Isn't this also why they removed those 5-point trucks? They were too good at absorbing ATGM volleys as screens for your tanks.
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Apr 30, 2014 18:16
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Mortabis posted:Actually, I can't think of a single positive change with infantry that has occurred between ALB and Red Dragon. No more Trucks is awesome. The whole 1 point empty trucks was bullshit, and the fact that it's gone is great. So is the transport card limit so you can't, in some cases, bring all your infantry in the same transport. The problem is they didn't price the transports with the card limit in mind. The most you should pay for a good IFV is 20 points - and you can do that even if the IFV is loving awesome for 20 points, because you can still balance it by giving it really low cards. They've implemented the transport card mechanic so they can use it for balance - but they're not using it for balance.
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Apr 30, 2014 18:24
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DatonKallandor posted:No more Trucks is awesome. The whole 1 point empty trucks was bullshit, and the fact that it's gone is great. So is the transport card limit so you can't, in some cases, bring all your infantry in the same transport. The problem is they didn't price the transports with the card limit in mind. The most you should pay for a good IFV is 20 points - and you can do that even if the IFV is loving awesome for 20 points, because you can still balance it by giving it really low cards. They've implemented the transport card mechanic so they can use it for balance - but they're not using it for balance. So the Marder 1A3 isn't imbalanced due to being overpowered; it's perfectly balanced and everything else (Bradley M2A2, BMP-3, etc.) needs to be upgunned/uparmored/price cheapened to match?
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Apr 30, 2014 18:25
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I am loving done getting airquaked and nit picked apart. I only play with friends usually 3vs3 or 4vs4. I am going to make a dek that is soley anti-air and artillery + planes. I am guessing it's best to have MANPADs the furthest out, with a few supporting AAA / Short Range SAM batteries anchored down by a big/long range SAM (Eg Buk). Are there any go to countries that are best for this? I know the Igla-M, Buk, Tunguska, TOR are all really great. What about for BLUFOR, are the Europeans the best ones for this sort of stuff? Does someone also have a break down of all the aircraft and what they are best at? I understand anti-radar missiles are to knock out SAMS (wild weasel style) but I see that there are TV guided missiles, SALH, etc etc. I used to be a big military nerd and knew all this poo poo but I forgot it all. Enigma89 fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Apr 30, 2014 |
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Apr 30, 2014 18:28
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DatonKallandor posted:No more Trucks is awesome. The whole 1 point empty trucks was bullshit, and the fact that it's gone is great. So is the transport card limit so you can't, in some cases, bring all your infantry in the same transport. The problem is they didn't price the transports with the card limit in mind. The most you should pay for a good IFV is 20 points - and you can do that even if the IFV is loving awesome for 20 points, because you can still balance it by giving it really low cards. They've implemented the transport card mechanic so they can use it for balance - but they're not using it for balance. No. Getting rid of 1pt trucks changes nothing and it wasn't even a big problem in the first place. That problem is massively overblown, and I still throw away humvees at 10 points just as much as M35s at 1 point. Or BTRs at 15 points for that matter. Trucks need to come back, even if it's at 5 points with 150km/h speed. Everyone should have the same price baseline fast transport, and the current price for such a transport is too high, which is why we don't see line infantry anymore.
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Apr 30, 2014 18:34
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You are correct that you should use manpads and IR sams and SPAAGs to screen for your big SAM units. Not having seen you play, I'd imagine one of these is the problem: 1) Don't bunch up your AAA/Sams. Position them so a bomber/artillery strike can only take out one at a time. 2) Put (cheap) radar AAA in front of your heavy SAM sites so they eat SEAD missiles and stun things for the SAMs to kill. 3) Make sure your SAM sites have supplies right there, always. SAMs also work better in pairs--they're a lot more likely to get a kill. 4) Once your SAMs shoot down a couple of planes, move them. Any static defense will eventually get chipped away by artillery and bombers and overrun. The best defense your SAMs have is stealth. In terms of countries with the best anti-air, I'd say generally NATO has better SPAAGs and PACT has better SAMs but there are some exceptions of course. Red Dragons have a very good SPAAG and a hilarious SAM that will one-shot planes (also a great manpads unit). Coalition has a SPAAG with 15 front armor and a non-radar SAM site, both of which resist SEAD well (plus SAS manpads).
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Apr 30, 2014 18:44
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Yeah, honestly my go to Canadian tactic is to swarm all of my empty Bisons out to absorb tank/ATGM fire and spot for my ADATS/Lav III TUA/Chimeras behind them. Cheap transport abuse still exists, just only for some factions. Oh, and the Chinese Q-5 with the pair of HE20 bombs kind of sucks. They do HE20 damage to anything that is exactly under them when they go of, but nothing else. It's like someone forgot to give the explosion a radius.
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Apr 30, 2014 18:46
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JeffersonClay posted:You are correct that you should use manpads and IR sams and SPAAGs to screen for your big SAM units. Not having seen you play, I'd imagine one of these is the problem: Yeah I have been doing that so far; the only thing I have been especially bad at is counter battering their artillery. A lot of my FOBs have been getting sniped because I am hugging the FOB with my artillery and I am going to start using Mi-26s to be a mobile FOB while I scoot and move my arty. Like I said in some previous posts I used to be really loving good at this game but now with aircraft and a lot of the units being changed around I am not able to clown my way to victory like I used to in W:EE. I had something like a 30 or 60 game win streak at one point in W:EE and I am so far only at a 50% win/loss ratio in Red Dragon. Also are Mig-31Ms useless now? In my brief stint in W:ALB I remember they would instantly clear the air but now it seems they just always miss. I guess maybe people are better at microing the planes and are able to scatter before the Mig-31M can start blowing away people.
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Apr 30, 2014 18:48
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Enigma89 posted:Yeah I have been doing that so far; the only thing I have been especially bad at is counter battering their artillery. A lot of my FOBs have been getting sniped because I am hugging the FOB with my artillery and I am going to start using Mi-26s to be a mobile FOB while I scoot and move my arty. No, Mig-31's are pretty miss and miss, they were changed to have a small forward arc of engagement so they can no longer do the orbit of doom, they also only became a big problem in ALB when they had enough mass to ensure 2 hits per volley which meant at least 3-4.
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Apr 30, 2014 19:09
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Infidelicious posted:No, Mig-31's are pretty miss and miss, they were changed to have a small forward arc of engagement so they can no longer do the orbit of doom, they also only became a big problem in ALB when they had enough mass to ensure 2 hits per volley which meant at least 3-4. That makes sense I guess. I guess on bigger maps they would be more useful because their radar cone would be more useful. Questions about Air to Air engagements. Which sort of missiles do you want your air to air missiles to use. Radar or infared? Are infared completely useless against flares and radar missiles bad against CHAFF or planes that are doing bomb drops (non radar planes?). Not sure if the game goes into this much detail but it seems my air to air engagements never really work that well.
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Apr 30, 2014 19:12
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The main change is that you only get 1 Mig-31M now. The missile has mediocre accuracy to begin with, and now there's a lot more fighters with very good ECM. The main use of Mig-31M has always been circling above your own AA defense, it can still do that, but with only 1 Mig-31M, the chance of you scoring a hit is fairly low (think 20-30%).
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Apr 30, 2014 19:14
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TsarZiedonis posted:Oh, and the Chinese Q-5 with the pair of HE20 bombs kind of sucks. They do HE20 damage to anything that is exactly under them when they go of, but nothing else. It's like someone forgot to give the explosion a radius. Yeah, we were running into pretty clear cases of this last night, where they go off ten feet away from infantry and don't even stun them. Quite a bug indeed.
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Apr 30, 2014 19:16
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Radar and IR missiles are both affected by the same ECM trait. IR missiles are certainly better close range because they fire faster than most Radar missiles, and more importantly they can fire in a wide arc off bore sight. Radar missiles are longer range but they only fire straight ahead, and mostly lack the fire and forget trait, both of which reduce their rate of fire. Also, only IR missiles can attack helicopters.
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Apr 30, 2014 19:18
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Enigma89 posted:Not sure if the game goes into this much detail but it seems my air to air engagements never really work that well. Radar missiles have long range but sometimes require a commitment that prevents your plane from maneuvering (SA vs. F&F). Infrared missiles have a very short range and fire very quickly; also they can shoot helicopters and radar missiles can't. Flares are a visual effect showing how good the units ECM score is. The best way to win an air fight is local superiority so you can get double team and cannon down the enemy fighter.
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Apr 30, 2014 19:22
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GenVec posted:Yeah, we were running into pretty clear cases of this last night, where they go off ten feet away from infantry and don't even stun them. Quite a bug indeed. Stun radius, damage radius, and morale damage radius are all different stats.
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Apr 30, 2014 19:29
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Enigma89 posted:That makes sense I guess. I guess on bigger maps they would be more useful because their radar cone would be more useful. As many [RAD] [F&F] as possible. ECM is a flat negative modifier, radar or IR make no difference.
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Apr 30, 2014 19:32
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Mortabis posted:No. Getting rid of 1pt trucks changes nothing and it wasn't even a big problem in the first place. That problem is massively overblown, and I still throw away humvees at 10 points just as much as M35s at 1 point. Or BTRs at 15 points for that matter. No, 1 point trucks was really lovely because it was far too cheap that it wasn't a thought/concern. The difference between throwing away 4 trucks at 4 points and 4 trucks at 20 points is huge, when you actually add them up over time. This was REALLY apparent in ranked, when 4+4 reservists dropped from 40 points in M113s to loving 24 in trucks. its the exact reason why 5 point humvees were so much more acceptable then 10 point humvees, regardless of peer. It's the cost of buying it in groups of 2-4 at a time, not losing them. I'm totally okay with bring trucks back as a 5 point fast transport (although I'd restrict it to the units that don't have any good ground transports, like a lot of light infantry), but I absolutely do not want to see trucks come in at anything under 5 points.
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Apr 30, 2014 19:34
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Mortabis posted:No. Getting rid of 1pt trucks changes nothing and it wasn't even a big problem in the first place. This happened all the time and it was incredibly dumb. It desperately needed to be fixed.
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Apr 30, 2014 20:43
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Honestly, the fact that IFVs cost 10 points now is just the increase in low-end price granularity that everyone wanted. Now the difference between 5-10-15 pt infantry is actually 15-20-25 (or 75%-100%-125%) instead of 6-11-16 (or 50%-100%-150%). Everything else just needs to be re-adjusted to accommodate.
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Apr 30, 2014 20:48
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I made a thing:
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Apr 30, 2014 21:03
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Much higher density of command zones to make it a lot easier to push through a zone you hold enough to matter in game terms, anything else I'm missing from a design perspective?
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Apr 30, 2014 21:07
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The location of the reinforcement arrows...?
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Apr 30, 2014 21:08
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It's a proof of concept that maps can be edited to a limited degree. Starting zones, reinforcement and airway arrows, point values (those were editable earlier already) and maybe zone placements.
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Apr 30, 2014 21:12
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GenVec posted:There was rarely a game that was played that did not involve scouting / ATGM absorbing with trucks. You either turned off your ATGMs and allowed them to drive right through your lines or wasted your ammo and gave away your positions. I still do that every single game just with humvees instead. I'm okay with 1pt trucks being gone, I'm not okay with 5 point wheeled transports being gone resulting in a Bison being the same price as a Humvee and line infantry being priced out. The reason people do it isn't because of it being 1 point, but because the trucks are totally worthless once you've dropped off the infantry. Same goes for every other APC. The only real effect is cheap infantry cost more. Mortabis fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Apr 30, 2014 |
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Apr 30, 2014 21:27
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Hob_Gadling posted:It's a proof of concept that maps can be edited to a limited degree. Starting zones, reinforcement and airway arrows, point values (those were editable earlier already) and maybe zone placements. That's an ALB screenshot though.
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Apr 30, 2014 21:38
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Deutsch Nozzle posted:That's an ALB screenshot though. Well yes, I don't have RD to test with. There's a good chance it works in RD.
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Apr 30, 2014 21:41
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Hob_Gadling posted:I made a thing: Re-make Duel (duel?) Field from W:EE! That was the best loving map. http://wargame-series.wikia.com/wiki/Dual_Field
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Apr 30, 2014 21:49
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Mortabis posted:I still do that every single game just with humvees instead. Casually throwing your troops lives away should be a DPRK-only ability.
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Apr 30, 2014 21:53
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Enigma89 posted:Re-make Duel (duel?) Field from W:EE! That was the best loving map. Isn't that vasterbotten? 
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Apr 30, 2014 21:54
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Tulip posted:Isn't that vasterbotten? That looks like it but it is missing a couple of forests. Dual Field was the best map because there were only a few points where you could really bunker down and hold. A lot of the map was open so you could push and pull the lines which was the best in W:EE. ALB and Red Dragon seem to have more static lines and a lot more snipes with artillery/airplanes to accumulate most of the points after the lines have been established.
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Apr 30, 2014 22:02
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Davin Valkri posted:So the Marder 1A3 isn't imbalanced due to being overpowered; it's perfectly balanced and everything else (Bradley M2A2, BMP-3, etc.) needs to be upgunned/uparmored/price cheapened to match? Yes, basically. You can have a great IFV at 20 points, but you only get 1 card of it. Now you actually need to decide which infantry you bring in those good IFVs, and you have to bring some of your infantry in less good IFVs. As for the whole "I still throw away humvees at 10 points just like I did with the 1 points trucks" thing. Yes that's the whole point. You're now throwing away something that actually cost you a significant amount of points. The 1 point truck scouting wasn't bad because of verisimilitude, it was bad because it was practically free. DatonKallandor fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Apr 30, 2014 |
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Apr 30, 2014 22:02
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Enigma89 posted:Re-make Duel (duel?) Field from W:EE! That was the best loving map. Whoa EE's graphics really look like poo poo compared to RD. It's been awhile.
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Apr 30, 2014 22:02
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This is so bizarre, I can't log into my account for a couple of days now and even trying to check my login by email results in a server error, what the heck is going on here?
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Apr 30, 2014 22:13
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Deutsch Nozzle posted:Whoa EE's graphics really look like poo poo compared to RD. It's been awhile. You can say poo poo here.
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Apr 30, 2014 22:35
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I think "poo poo" is like saying poo poo but ironically. It's old timey, like "fiddle sticks" replacing gently caress.
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Apr 30, 2014 22:47
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ArchangeI posted:You can say poo poo here. Thanks for this quality post highlighting your lack of understanding of ironic word usage.
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Apr 30, 2014 22:51
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ArchangeI posted:You can say poo poo here. poo poo like "I think it was a great idea to turn Wargame into an infantry combat game"?
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Apr 30, 2014 22:53
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I'd murder for hobmod style pricing on tanks and other armored gun carrying vehicles. Other than that and infantry pricing I think it's getting close to a really fun balance where light forces are quite useful and there's room for everything.
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Apr 30, 2014 23:06
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