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Tight Booty Shorts posted:We live in a capitalist society, there is just too much money being made in CO for banks not to make a profit on it. And do you really think the for-profit prison industry, which is incredibly powerful, is just going to let legalization happen? Do you think that there are any viable presidential candidates that have marijuana legalization as their top priority? How many years do you think it will take for the DEA and the fed government to regulate cannabis like alcohol? Colorado and Washington both have for-profit prisons and they did it. The DoJ has been easing of on enforcement because believe it or not, very angry and motivated people can be more influential than generic "business interests". The marginal utility of spending goes way down once you have a lot of it, and money can't replace votes.
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May 2, 2014 15:20
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Kiwi Ghost Chips posted:Colorado and Washington both have for-profit prisons and they did it. The DoJ has been easing of on enforcement because believe it or not, very angry and motivated people can be more influential than generic "business interests". The marginal utility of spending goes way down once you have a lot of it, and money can't replace votes. You didn't answer my questions about the amount of years it will take for the DEA and fed government to regulate cannabis like alcohol. Also, do you see any presidential contenders that want to legalize it?
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May 2, 2014 15:25
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Marijuana relaxation won't put much of a long-term dent in white supremacy, the prison industrial complex, or an increasingly militarized state. It might even accelerate some of those trends.Kiwi Ghost Chips posted:The DoJ has been easing of on enforcement because believe it or not, very angry and motivated people can be more influential than generic "business interests". In the context of the US government this is actually empirically false. DOCTOR ZIMBARDO fucked around with this message at 15:32 on May 2, 2014 |
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May 2, 2014 15:29
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:Marijuana relaxation won't put much of a long-term dent in white supremacy, the prison industrial complex, or an increasingly militarized state. It might even accelerate some of those trends. Agree 100%
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May 2, 2014 15:31
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Tight Booty Shorts posted:You didn't answer my questions about the amount of years it will take for the DEA and fed government to regulate cannabis like alcohol. Also, do you see any presidential contenders that want to legalize it? How should I know "how many years"? For possible candidates, see Brian Schweitzer, Rand Paul, Rick Perry, Chris Christie, and Chuck Schumer. DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:In the context of the US government this is actually empirically false. Great study. I liked the part where they included 0% of their original survey making the data impossible to verify or replicate 
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May 2, 2014 15:43
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Kiwi Ghost Chips posted:How should I know "how many years"? For possible candidates, see Brian Schweitzer, Rand Paul, Rick Perry, Chris Christie, and Chuck Schumer. Is Chuck Schumer considered a plausible candidate?
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May 2, 2014 15:52
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:Marijuana relaxation won't put much of a long-term dent in white supremacy, the prison industrial complex, or an increasingly militarized state. It might even accelerate some of those trends. Tight Booty Shorts posted:Agree 100% I feel like we are now getting into Marijuana Hipster territory here. Concern trolling as an argument against Marijuana reform. 
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May 2, 2014 16:07
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Mirthless posted:I feel like we are now getting into Marijuana Hipster territory here. Concern trolling as an argument against Marijuana reform. Concern trolling is not what you think it is. I want cannabis to be regulated in the free market like evryone else, but I am skeptical it will ever happen. This is not concern trolling.
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May 2, 2014 16:19
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Kiwi Ghost Chips posted:Brian Schweitzer, Rand Paul, Rick Perry, Chris Christie, and Chuck Schumer. Bahahahahah, look, Christie is never going to legalize anything, and I've never heard of Scheweitzer or Schumer before. quote:Gov. Chris Christie stressed once again Monday night that he will never support the legalization of marijuana in New Jersey — especially after a recent study examining the effects of casual pot use. http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2014/04/christie_not_even_casual_marijuana_use_is_ok.html white sauce fucked around with this message at 16:23 on May 2, 2014 |
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May 2, 2014 16:21
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Did the Rocky Mountains yawn open and swallow Colorado into hell? Are there swarms of DEA/DOJ agents trawling Boulder and arresting thousands of people? Is there a federal prosecutor alive who just can't wait to become AG so they can enact what is sure to be an incredibly popular Prohibition II: Edible Boogaloo? Cannabis is already being regulated by the free market. The Weed War is over and we won. Just because the Feds haven't signed the armistice yet doesn't mean anything.
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May 2, 2014 16:31
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Tight Booty Shorts posted:Bahahahahah, look, Christie is never going to legalize anything, and I've never heard of Scheweitzer or Schumer before. But he's also fine with NJ's MMJ program and said the War on Drugs should be ended. e: If you've never heard of Schweitzer you should probably pay more attention to Governors That Are Awesome Quarterly.
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May 2, 2014 16:39
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:Marijuana relaxation won't put much of a long-term dent in white supremacy, the prison industrial complex, or an increasingly militarized state. It might even accelerate some of those trends. In addition to the criticism lobbed above, how does that gel with this study showing that money is ineffective at buying votes: http://web.mit.edu/jdefig/www/papers/invest_or_consumpt.pdf If I had to guess at the real causes here, I would guess that it's more like, legislators are generally "elites" and so their views are often aligned with elites at large. Maybe legislators as a whole believe that money buys elections even if it doesn't, so they vote on what the elites want anyway? It's possible that money spent on lobbying would be significantly more effective than direct campaign contributions(this seems really unintuitive to me but that certainly doesn't rule it out.)
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May 2, 2014 16:52
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Read Marx. Society being dominated by one class and it's economic interests doesn't actually require a conspiracy or vote-buying or anything so vulgar. The trend is historical and predates campaign finance reform etc.Mirthless posted:I feel like we are now getting into Marijuana Hipster territory here. Concern trolling as an argument against Marijuana reform. It's not an argument in favor of the status quo but we should acknowledge the fact that the drug war is a symptom and not a cause of deeper phenomena and weed is only a part of the drug war. As it is I am expecting legalization to overwhelmingly favor white businessmen at the expense of poor minority communities where drugs brought at least some money in.
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May 2, 2014 17:08
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Tight Booty Shorts posted:Bahahahahah, look, Christie is never going to legalize anything, and I've never heard of Scheweitzer or Schumer before. You've never heard of Chuck Schumer? What, have you lived under a rock for 15 years?
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May 2, 2014 17:13
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:It's not an argument in favor of the status quo but we should acknowledge the fact that the drug war is a symptom and not a cause of deeper phenomena and weed is only a part of the drug war. As it is I am expecting legalization to overwhelmingly favor white businessmen at the expense of poor minority communities where drugs brought at least some money in. Which one of the three things you mentioned could conceivably be made worse by marijuana decriminalization?
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May 2, 2014 18:01
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Dusseldorf posted:Which one of the three things you mentioned could conceivably be made worse by marijuana decriminalization? White supremacy. I explained why in the post you quoted.
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May 2, 2014 18:11
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:As it is I am expecting legalization to overwhelmingly favor white businessmen at the expense of poor minority communities where drugs brought at least some money in. DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:White supremacy. I explained why in the post you quoted. Not concern trolling, guys, honest, I just don't want to take bread out of the mouths of poor inner city drug dealers and deliver it directly into the hands of the Aryan Nation. That's why we need to slow down on, and manage our expectations towards Marijuana Reform.
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May 2, 2014 18:23
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I think you need to like reread your marx or something, legalizing weed isn't going to make class war worse. Removing a law that overwhelmingly affects minorities isn't going to somehow increase white supremacy. It might not make it a ton better, but then again no one in here has been saying that.
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May 2, 2014 18:23
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Legalization will certainly remove income from poor communities, no need for the hyperbole.
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May 2, 2014 18:24
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Jeffrey posted:Legalization will certainly remove income from poor communities, no need for the hyperbole. Legalization will also put a lot more working age adults back into their homes in poor communities. It's a stupid argument about a factor that is close to meaningless that distracts from the actual reform argument. Do either of you guys have any numbers to back up the implication that drug sales are a significant source of income in poor communities? I mean, most of the people buying are poor, too. Where's the money coming from? It sounds to me more like it's a small group of people passing the same money between themselves, and the total money in those communities would be identical (or close to identical) either way. It's not like the wealthy are going to downtown Detroit or whatever to buy drugs, because there's plenty of sellers outside of the inner city? Beyond that, what kind of economic harm does the drug economy in the inner city do? How many people are currently employed as pushers, enforcers, distributors, couriers, etc? How many of those people could find more meaningful, legal work that would have a more positive outcome on their community? How much impact does the presence of drugs have on preventing economic growth within poor communities? Mirthless fucked around with this message at 18:35 on May 2, 2014 |
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May 2, 2014 18:31
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You know what removes income from poor communities? Having something like a quarter of your working age adults in prison or with a criminal record that excludes them from most decent paying jobs.
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May 2, 2014 18:32
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rscott posted:You know what removes income from poor communities? Having something like a quarter of your working age adults in prison or with a criminal record that excludes them from most decent paying jobs. Though most decent paying jobs these days require a college degree which are already out of the reach of people in poor communities.
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May 2, 2014 18:35
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Sure but I don't think legalizing weed will do much to lower overall arrest rates. It definitely won't do anything to reduce disparity in arrests generally or for weed specifically, and hasn't in places where it's been decriminalized. I still think it should be legalized, as if that was ever in contention. But I expect the framework of that legalization to favor whites at the expense of blacks and Hispanics.
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May 2, 2014 18:38
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:It definitely won't do anything to reduce disparity in arrests generally or for weed specifically, and hasn't in places where it's been decriminalized. Unless I don't get something how does arresting fewer people not reduce the disparity in arrests?
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May 2, 2014 18:41
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computer parts posted:Though most decent paying jobs these days require a college degree which are already out of the reach of people in poor communities. You know what excludes you from getting loans for a college degree? A criminal drug record!
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May 2, 2014 18:44
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rscott posted:You know what excludes you from getting loans for a college degree? A criminal drug record! Also, not being able to start a lucrative career as a drug pusher when you're 14 is probably going to do a better job of keeping kids in high school. So will more two-parent households.
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May 2, 2014 18:47
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Why exactly do you guys think people deal drugs? Because they're bored? Or are told its glamorous?
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May 2, 2014 18:50
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:Why exactly do you guys think people deal drugs? Because they're bored? Or are told its glamorous? Because drug dealers make lots of money out of being a horrible drain on their community? Where do you think drug money comes from? Who do you think is buying crack and weed from inner city dealers? If you guessed wealthy white people, hey, there's plenty of drug dealers in wealthy communities too! Why would I ever drive to a poor area when I can buy weed (or meth, or heroin, or cocaine) from a local dealer? Take drug sales out of poor communities and it's not going to reduce the amount of money in the local economy. The money is coming in from people who live in those communities. A poor area with a very wealthy drug economy is poor because of the drug economy. Why do you think the CIA worked so hard to get crack started in black communities?
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May 2, 2014 18:56
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And if Annheiser Bud is what we end up with after legalization that money from the community goes... out of the community.
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May 2, 2014 19:07
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Yeah but those same poor people won't have criminal records so they'll actually be able to fully participate in society. Do you have any data at all to back up this harebrained assertion?
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May 2, 2014 19:10
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my wealthy white suburban weed dealer gets a tax credit if he sources at least 50% of his weed from low income communities Do you think wealthy people never go buy weed/cocaine/heroin in poor areas? I mean it's anecdotal of course, but I know of it happening many times, and often that's where those suburban dealers are getting their wholesale priced supply from. What percentage of the prison population do you think is in prison for marijuana and nothing else? I imagine it's very small... Now how many of those would have been selling other drugs instead if marijuana were legal? I think you are overestimating the effect size there too. The guy in prison for selling marijuana and possessing an illegal handgun isn't going anywhere. Jeffrey of YOSPOS fucked around with this message at 19:24 on May 2, 2014 |
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May 2, 2014 19:13
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Criminal records are one of but not the primary obstacle to economic development in poor urban minority communities.
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May 2, 2014 19:13
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rscott posted:You know what excludes you from getting loans for a college degree? A criminal drug record! Maybe after their first arrest, they should use First Offender and get it dropped from their record once they finish probation. Criminals have a hard time committing only 1 crime though. Also, it may be hard to get a job with a conviction for Selling Crack and having a gun, but I have found most employers will work with you on a simple possession. At least get something better than minimum wage. (Not all states have a drug version, but many do) goodness fucked around with this message at 19:18 on May 2, 2014 |
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May 2, 2014 19:14
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goodness posted:Maybe after their first arrest, they should use First Offender and get it dropped from their record once they finish probation. Criminals have a hard time committing only 1 crime though. Are you extremely white?
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May 2, 2014 21:07
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Mirthless posted:Also, not being able to start a lucrative career as a drug pusher when you're 14 is probably going to do a better job of keeping kids in high school. So will more two-parent households. If you are dealing publicly in the inner city you're almost certainly affiliated with an organization which takes most of the profits. A corner dealer or whatever could generally do better at McDonalds wage-wise. The 14 year old dealer business model is basically predicated on the total lack of opportunity in those communities.
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May 2, 2014 21:25
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Salt Fish posted:Are you extremely white? White or black, if you don't involve yourself with crime or criminals, you won't get in trouble. Obviously there are exceptions, it's a generalization.
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May 2, 2014 21:34
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Jazerus posted:The 14 year old dealer business model is basically predicated on the total lack of opportunity in those communities. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeRCLNgFc64 Agreed. If your family is broke, there are very few jobs around, and your two best choices are: (a) 60-hour retail shifts for minimum wage, still not making nearly enough to make ends meet (b) pushing drugs, making enough money to get by, hoping you don't get caught It's not nearly as cut-and-dry as "doing the legal thing" = "taking the moral high road" goodness posted:White or black, if you don't involve yourself with crime or criminals, you won't get in trouble. What do you call being homeless because there is no legal work where you live?
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May 2, 2014 21:40
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goodness posted:White or black, if you don't involve yourself with crime or criminals, you won't get in trouble. Yeah, you're right, black people do get treated completely fairly by our criminal justice system. There is literally hundreds of examples of completely innocent black people getting thrown in jail for basically a goddamn eternity who didn't involve themselves with crime or criminals and just made the mistake of being black in the wrong place at the wrong time. White people are treated wildly different by the criminal justice system, especially when it comes to drug convictions. I even have an (anecdotal) example for this! My Uncle just got convicted and sentenced for a grow op he got busted on. He had pounds of Marijuana, dozens of plants, and the police had proof he was acting as a distributor. He's serving 1 year in jail. They hit him with the wimpiest charge and gave him the minimum sentence. Do you think that would have ended the same way if he was black? He'd be doing 20 years, dude. If he has first offender laws in his state (btw most states don't) what difference does it loving make? Your life's over by the time you get out anyway, whether you get the conviction waived from your record or not. (You won't!) quote:What do you call being homeless because there is no legal work where you live? Well obviously they just need to get into their car and drive out of the ghetto. If I can do it, why can't they?  Alternatively It's not that hard to take a bus  Oh, me? When I was in elementary school, yeah. The school bus got me to school in 20 minutes, so the city bus should get people to work in 20 minutes too, right?Mirthless fucked around with this message at 21:49 on May 2, 2014 |
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May 2, 2014 21:46
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Mirthless posted:Yeah, you're right, black people do get treated completely fairly by our criminal justice system. Mirthless posted:Yeah, you're right, black people do get treated completely fairly by our criminal justice system. Mirthless posted:Yeah, you're right, black people do get treated completely fairly by our criminal justice system. No place to argue about race, my bad for bringing it up: There is a Federal level First Offenders , it does not cover drugs though (which you should not be doing if poor and homeless).
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May 2, 2014 22:38
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Stepping away from anecdotal evidence and bringing some facts in, arrests rates for marijuana in Colorado have plummeted since legalization: http://www.denverpost.com/marijuana/ci_24894248/marijuana-case-filings-plummet-colorado-following-legalization 77% by 13 January. Imagine how much farther they've fallen four months later. Less marijuana arrests means less black people in jail. Last time I checked, that's a net gain for African-American communities. IMO, legalization is benefiting venture capitalist white guys, but it's also benefiting poor people who aren't arrested on drug charges anymore. It doesn't have to be either-or.
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May 2, 2014 22:42
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