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We're straying from the point, which is how Cecily's case shows what minorities have known for years: that the police can brutalize you with impunity and it will still be a felony offense on your part. They basically criminalized being sexually assaulted by a plainclothes officer.
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May 5, 2014 22:13
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anonumos posted:You know...it wasn't just a few 'bad apple' cops taking random whacks at "a guy or two." It was actually a systematic, coordinated response organized by very powerful people (who happened to be conservative-Democrats or Republicans). You see it happen at world trade conferences, Occupy, and other leftist protests, but strangely never at a Nationalist gathering like the Tea Party protests. It is remarkable, really... There was no systematic coordinated response involved, the police departments in all the cities did stuff at different times and doing a "coordinated" effort makes no sense to begin with as there was minimal connections. And once again genius, the Tea Party people showed up for 5 hours with a permit and then left on their rascals, instead of hanging around for 5 months.
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May 5, 2014 22:14
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Install Windows posted:The real reason is there were way more people protesting across a much larger time period, which resulted in more chances for a cop to whack a guy or two. We're talking hundreds of cities for months at a time, and especially over time you started to have real unbalanced types joining up who were practically cop bait. Cop Bait: Scott Olsen, Veteran, peacefully protesting:  Not Cop Bait: Cliven Bundy Militia, openly threatening, and advancing on federal officers with high caliber rifles:  Something doesn't add up here...
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May 5, 2014 22:17
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I am so loving tired of the previously sane people falling for the sensationalist bullshit from the right-wing. I found this in my my mother's facebook feed, a woman who before now has been quite rational and politically moderate.
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May 5, 2014 22:18
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pd187 posted:Yeah, nice "outrage about murder" you loser. I can be horrified at the pepper spraying incidents without constructing strawmen about Kent State. Several posters have explained why law enforcement is not yet cracking the heads of the Bundy militia morons.
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May 5, 2014 22:18
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Way to miss the point entirely, but you've already sanitized Occupy in your head into just that one guy.  It's no wonder you're confused!
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May 5, 2014 22:19
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Posts about the OWS police response tend to come off a bit too conspiratorial-minded and persecuted for me, maybe it's just me reading too far into things. But:Defenestration posted:We're straying from the point, which is how Cecily's case shows what minorities have known for years: that the police can brutalize you with impunity and it will still be a felony offense on your part. That's really ridiculous though.
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May 5, 2014 22:20
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Sword of Chomsky posted:Cop Bait: Nevada cops are more the pepper spray teenagers kind of cops, not the 'deal with armed insurrections' kind of cops.
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May 5, 2014 22:22
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hangedman1984 posted:I am so loving tired of the previously sane people falling for the sensationalist bullshit from the right-wing. I found this in my my mother's facebook feed, a woman who before now has been quite rational and politically moderate. At this point i'm convinced that a majority of people on the right want a civil war. they are begging for the opportunity to kill "lib-tards" and others they can't co-exist with. The rhetoric is there, the provocations are there, the propaganda is there. I just don't see how the rage gets dialed back at this point until something terrible happens.
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May 5, 2014 22:22
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Sword of Chomsky posted:At this point i'm convinced that a majority of people on the right want a civil war. they are begging for the opportunity to kill "lib-tards" and others they can't co-exist with. The rhetoric is there, the provocations are there, the propaganda is there. I just don't see how the rage gets dialed back at this point until something terrible happens. Do rage-induced heart attacks count as terrible?
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May 5, 2014 22:23
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Install Windows posted:Do rage-induced heart attacks count as terrible? I think so. As much as i dislike the view points of some people, they are still people. Nobody deserves the be propagandized into a rage to the point of death, no matter how gullible they are.
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May 5, 2014 22:25
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Sword of Chomsky posted:At this point i'm convinced that a majority of people on the right want a civil war. they are begging for the opportunity to kill "lib-tards" and others they can't co-exist with. The rhetoric is there, the provocations are there, the propaganda is there. I just don't see how the rage gets dialed back at this point until something terrible happens. I just wanna know how they keep brainwashing once rational people.
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May 5, 2014 22:25
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hangedman1984 posted:I just wanna know how they keep brainwashing once rational people. Nobody is really rational. Sorry to let you down. Strike the right chord for someone and they'll sing the tune you want them to. People are, sadly, very easy to manipulate.
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May 5, 2014 22:27
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hangedman1984 posted:I just wanna know how they keep brainwashing once rational people. The same way the I'm-sure-sane person posting above has been "brainwashed" into thinking there's a police conspiracy against liberal protesters? Okay, okay, I jest, I'll get off that topic.
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May 5, 2014 22:29
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Amergin posted:The same way the I'm-sure-sane person posting above has been "brainwashed" into thinking there's a police conspiracy against liberal protesters? that guy kinda sorta if-you-squint has a point though. While saying there is some "conspiracy" is going a bit far, "hippie-bashing" has become almost a sort of past-time among a lot of law-enforcement. Birtherism, IRS "scandal", Obama's "communism" are all complete fictions however.
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May 5, 2014 22:32
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Amergin posted:The same way the I'm-sure-sane person posting above has been "brainwashed" into thinking there's a police conspiracy against liberal protesters? The US government has many times in the past openly coordinated against labor movements, civil rights movements, and other left wing causes. The idea isn't far fetched at all. For you to treat is as a conspiracy theory pretty much shows you don't have an understanding of this country's history. The point being made is that those same forces generally leave right wing causes alone because they fall in line with that ideology. I'm not even making a persecution argument, just a straight fact based argument, and all you have done is open dismissal with no argument.
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May 5, 2014 22:37
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Tatum Girlparts posted:I love the idea that a left wing protest like Bundy's would get slaughtered, like the feds are super worried about the optics of gunning down right wingers but left wingers are fair game. And there's the operative factor. Protests in the US are basically only allowed if the thing they're protesting in support of is already fairly politically popular and propped up by at least a couple major institutions. In effect, that means a purely grassroots movement in the US is basically impossible.
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May 5, 2014 22:42
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hangedman1984 posted:While saying there is some "conspiracy" is going a bit far, "hippie-bashing" has become almost a sort of past-time among a lot of law-enforcement. Yeah. It's part of the reason you don't see cops sporting poo poo like this at Tea Party rallies or at Bundy's ranch. 
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May 5, 2014 22:44
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Sword of Chomsky posted:The US government has many times in the past openly coordinated against labor movements, civil rights movements, and other left wing causes. The idea isn't far fetched at all. For you to treat is as a conspiracy theory pretty much shows you don't have an understanding of this country's history. The point being made is that those same forces generally leave right wing causes alone because they fall in line with that ideology. I'm not even making a persecution argument, just a straight fact based argument, and all you have done is open dismissal with no argument. COINTELPRO is really the only thing that needs to be said.
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May 5, 2014 22:44
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Amergin posted:This isn't "the police just leave right-wing protesters alone," I'm sorry but that just sounds petty. It's a sentiment with precedent. The intelligence community pissed off Congress during the 70s, so Congress aired out the intelligence communities dirty laundry. Not only is this how we learned about hilarious stuff like completely retarded mind-control experiments,* but it's also how we found out about the feds and intelligence community's domestic operations against political and civil rights group. Operations wherein the threshold for when they'd start up against the left was substantially lower than for the right. Edit: IIRC, they'd go after targets as benign as women's advocacy groups. Contrastingly, if you were on the right, their threshold hovered around the KKK and militias. Which is to say, they'd pick appropriate right wing targets, and would pick inappropriate left wing targets pursuant to strong institutional biases. And to the extent that institutional culture typically has serious inertia, I'd expect those same biases today. * Which pretty well exemplify the kind of goofy poo poo which festers behind closed doors. Accretionist fucked around with this message at 22:56 on May 5, 2014 |
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May 5, 2014 22:48
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Taerkar posted:COINTELPRO is really the only thing that needs to be said. You're just a conspiracy theorist, let me tell you how the right wing is really the persecuted group in the country...  
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May 5, 2014 22:48
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Sword of Chomsky posted:You're just a conspiracy theorist, let me tell you how the right wing is really the persecuted group in the country... You literally responded to a post saying more things happened at things like OWS because it was a bigger group over a longer time with more openly hostile to police factions in it with 'yea but what about this one guy' and everyone else is dumb.
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May 5, 2014 22:51
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Zombie Samurai posted:I think it's just easier to teargas unarmed civilians than blood-gargling psychopaths with more firepower than the police.
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May 5, 2014 22:51
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Sword of Chomsky posted:At this point i'm convinced that a majority of people on the right want a civil war. they are begging for the opportunity to kill "lib-tards" and others they can't co-exist with. The rhetoric is there, the provocations are there, the propaganda is there. I just don't see how the rage gets dialed back at this point until something terrible happens. Last time it went Ruby Ridge->Waco->Oklahoma City Bombing before the militia groups finally lost most of their support; the Bundy thing really echos Waco/Ruby Ridge, so maybe the sentiment of "oh poo poo we don't want to go down this path again" will get Fox to shut the hell up for a little while. They have already shifted back to Benghazi, at least. E: I'm treating the Bundy thing blowing up as a very real possibility, since the only ones still there are the completely crazy guys who do want to get into a shootout. All it takes is one person firing, even accidentally, and everything blows up. fade5 fucked around with this message at 22:58 on May 5, 2014 |
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May 5, 2014 22:55
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I think the only reason militias appeared to die down was because GWB was elected as their lord and savior. They never really really disappeared, they just cloaked thenselves in legitimacy or became border minute men.
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May 5, 2014 22:59
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Berke Negri posted:I think the only reason militias appeared to die down was because GWB was elected as their lord and savior. They never really really disappeared, they just cloaked thenselves in legitimacy or became border minute men.
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May 5, 2014 23:02
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Ultra-Right-Wing Militias are well known for their opposition to banking and financial institutes, so clearly it was because of TARP.
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May 5, 2014 23:05
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Berke Negri posted:I think the only reason militias appeared to die down was because GWB was elected as their lord and savior. They never really really disappeared, they just cloaked thenselves in legitimacy or became border minute men.  Note the dip after 1996, that's because of Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma bombings putting militas in a bad light. Notice that 1999 to 2008 are basically identical, even though Clinton was in office for the first part of that. Obama being elected did indeed put the militia guys back into full  mode, and I think it'll take another horrible event (or a Republican being elected president, but that's redundant) to disillusion America's view of militas again. I am curious what happens to those numbers if Hillary's elected though.We never loving learn.
fade5 fucked around with this message at 23:17 on May 5, 2014 |
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May 5, 2014 23:15
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fade5 posted:I mentioned the Oklahoma bombings for a reason. This chart has been posted a couple of times in various topics:
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May 5, 2014 23:18
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fade5 posted:and I think it'll take another horrible event (or a Republican being elected president, but that's redundant) to disillusion America's view of militas again. I am curious what happens to those numbers if Hillary's elected though. I for one wouldn't mind a Republican being elected president, depending on which Republican. I think those numbers would go down with Hilary, though. She's not seen as an uppity socialist who will bring the downfall of this nation as much as Obama is/was.
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May 5, 2014 23:29
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Hmm yeah I wonder why the guys protesting on the doorstep of the halls of power got their skulls bashed in, while a bunch of yahoos in Tumbleweed Canyon aren't being taken seriously as a threat to anybody but themselves? Am I missing something here? 
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May 5, 2014 23:35
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Nessus posted:What's this "we" poo poo? "The kind of people who form little shitbag militias and jack off over the prospect of getting to LARP out Red Dawn" never learn, maybe. I think this is a place where it is OK to have exclusionary language. gently caress it, I'm in. The Republicans didn't win last time, and I've seen a hell of a lot of Clinton nostalgia. 
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May 5, 2014 23:36
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Install Windows posted:There was no systematic coordinated response involved, the police departments in all the cities did stuff at different times and doing a "coordinated" effort makes no sense to begin with as there was minimal connections. Really? No systematic coordinated response from law enforcement? There's been a fair amount of reporting on the subject over the past few years (you can start here: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec/29/fbi-coordinated-crackdown-occupy) and plenty of FOIA releases of tactics and/or phrasing direction from higher levels on how city/state/etc law enforcement should deal with OWS. Look it up. I mean, I get the point you're making, that generally groups like the Tea Party ,which have outside funding and more expansive political support, don't get cracked down upon nearly as harshly, however, to act like OWS isn't similar in that regard is specious and ignoring the facts. Even though the mainstream US political left didn't latch onto OWS like many hoped, the movement itself didn't just coalesce out of nowhere; it was funded and heavily supported by Adbusters and other alt-media groups, and it just happened to take off beyond their initial expectations. The heavy handed response given to OWS versus how coddled Bundy, the Tea Party, etc are just shows the discrepancy in how "populist" movements are treated basted on their perceived political standing. Sword of Chomsky's response sums it up pretty well, although I think it was meant for someone else: Sword of Chomsky posted:The US government has many times in the past openly coordinated against labor movements, civil rights movements, and other left wing causes. The idea isn't far fetched at all. For you to treat is as a conspiracy theory pretty much shows you don't have an understanding of this country's history. The point being made is that those same forces generally leave right wing causes alone because they fall in line with that ideology. I'm not even making a persecution argument, just a straight fact based argument, and all you have done is open dismissal with no argument. Defenestration posted:We're straying from the point, which is how Cecily's case shows what minorities have known for years: that the police can brutalize you with impunity and it will still be a felony offense on your part. Pretty much the only response that matters. Look at this Cecily McMillan ruling, look at the PRISM/NSA scandal, look at really any kind of civil liberties uproar in the past decade or so. None of these things are really new; the only difference is that now, instead of it only happening to poor minorities, everyone is getting a taste. Plenty of people have written about this as well: http://davidsimon.com/we-are-shocked-shocked/ http://davidsimon.com/the-friend of the family-wake-up-call/ Mat Cauthon fucked around with this message at 23:49 on May 5, 2014 |
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May 5, 2014 23:45
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Amergin posted:I think those numbers would go down with Hilary, though. She's not seen as an uppity socialist who will bring the downfall of this nation as much as Obama is/was. You can just say "she's not black".
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May 5, 2014 23:46
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Amergin posted:I for one wouldn't mind a Republican being elected president, depending on which Republican. I'm sure the misogyny will we cranked up to 11. Sometimes I wonder which group the right dislikes more, black people or women. We've seen those two venn diagrams cross with Michelle Obama and it is some disgusting poo poo. I don't see why Hillary would be spared.
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May 5, 2014 23:50
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fade5 posted:I mentioned the Oklahoma bombings for a reason. This chart has been posted a couple of times in various topics: I wish the graph went back 15-20 years more to answer the objection that it's the economy (stupid).
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May 5, 2014 23:51
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Frankly I don't like Hillary and won't vote for her if she is the nominee, but it's a shame that a lot of the opposition against her will be influenced by misogyny.
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May 5, 2014 23:52
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Sword of Chomsky posted:I'm sure the misogyny will we cranked up to 11. Sometimes I wonder which group the right dislikes more, black people or women. We've seen those two venn diagrams cross with Michelle Obama and it is some disgusting poo poo. I don't see why Hillary would be spared. But women don't scare ignorant old white voters. New Division posted:Frankly I don't like Hillary and won't vote for her if she is the nominee, but it's a shame that a lot of the opposition against her will be influenced by misogyny. I won't vote for Hilary either. I've been thoroughly unimpressed by Obama and would rather not have corporate-sponsored moderate Democrat 2.0 to follow up.
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May 5, 2014 23:53
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Rap Record Hoarder posted:Really? No systematic coordinated response from law enforcement? There's been a fair amount of reporting on the subject over the past few years (you can start here: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec/29/fbi-coordinated-crackdown-occupy) and plenty of FOIA releases of tactics and/or phrasing direction from higher levels on how city/state/etc law enforcement should deal with OWS. Look it up. You can look it up yourself, you even have the whole FBI report thing which showed the FBI saying they did not believe Occupy was a threat outside of existing criminals who might show up. The various city police departments, where they did respond, did not show any form of unified or coordinated tactics in practice, and often ignored or outright dismissed higher up or collegial recommendations on what to be done. Rap Record Hoarder posted:
It's not ABOUT outside support! The Tea Party "protests" simply consisted of people standing/sitting in place for a few hours and then leaving, having first secured all necessary permits. If a bunch of Occupy people applied for a permit to go stand somewhere for 2 hours and do nothing they also wouldn't have had any cops on them either - but would that even have been an occupy event? Bundy isn't loving coddled and the Tea Party didn't even approach any excuse to have cops go against them. You don't know what you're talking about and seem to be compressing the events of months at a time in occupy camps into a few days to try to make them at all comparable.
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May 5, 2014 23:56
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Amergin posted:But women don't scare ignorant old white voters. They'll just call her a socialist marxist fascist progressive nazi who wears pants suits made from the recycled corpses of elderly Americans who were terminated by obamacare death panels. Seriously, were you even alive during the Clinton administration? They foam at the mouth with Hillary Hate.
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May 5, 2014 23:57
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