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Paragon8 posted:
No, as someone explained very well a few pages ago (and much better than I'm doing now), Rowling only shows the way Hermione goes around to try to change things is bad - meaning the usual "college student from privilege discovering injustice and thinking to fix it with some flashy actions like sit-ins, protests, banners" instead of really going to the bottom of things and trying to make real change - the thing Hermione does later on from inside the Ministry, with the Elves and other creatures instead of basically enacting her version of "White Man's Burden" and trying to set them free without a plan and even against their will.
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Feb 4, 2014 21:04
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bobkatt013 posted:I thought the were planning on giving the sword to Griphook once they finished their quest. They were not planning on keeping it, they just did not tell them the specific time that they would give him the sword. It was some semantic thing where it's like "oh this is totally okay because we didn't tell him *when* we would give the sword back" Really they should have levelled with griphook and be like "we need this to defeat voldemort, you'll get it back afterwards. Is that okay?"
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Feb 4, 2014 21:04
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Decius posted:No, as someone explained very well a few pages ago (and much better than I'm doing now), Rowling only shows the way Hermione goes around to try to change things is bad - meaning the usual "college student from privilege discovering injustice and thinking to fix it with some flashy actions like sit-ins, protests, banners" instead of really going to the bottom of things and trying to make real change - the thing Hermione does later on from inside the Ministry, with the Elves and other creatures instead of basically enacting her version of "White Man's Burden" and trying to set them free without a plan and even against their will. Yeah, this is basically what it seems like some of you are missing. Hermione just up and decides that the house elves need to be free without consulting with literally any of them. I mean, yeah, her heart is in the right place but she's basically discounts any of the elves saying that they are pretty good with what they're doing as them being "confused". She basically goes for the big "Free 'Em Now" statement without really thinking through how that would work for the elves or asking the elves what they wanted.
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Feb 5, 2014 00:12
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Olanphonia posted:Yeah, this is basically what it seems like some of you are missing. Hermione just up and decides that the house elves need to be free without consulting with literally any of them. I mean, yeah, her heart is in the right place but she's basically discounts any of the elves saying that they are pretty good with what they're doing as them being "confused". She basically goes for the big "Free 'Em Now" statement without really thinking through how that would work for the elves or asking the elves what they wanted. It's not quite like that though. Hermione's first experience with a house elf is through Dobby who is mistreated and abused by some awful people. Then she's told that House Elves are a pretty common institution and even her school uses them. Can you blame her for having such a strong reaction? Up until that point that's basically the reader's reaction. I can certainly see the potential for a storyline of Hermione finding an element of a culture alien to her ideals but accepted within that culture and having her naiveté lifted over the course of the subplot. However I'm uncomfortable with that cultural element being submissive slavery. It feels very uncomfortable to read a class with a position of power talking about an underclass with words like their happy with hard work and that's what they prefer etc. - unfortunately Rowling does legitimise this with House Elves actually being totally cool with being slaves. Rowling aside from Dobby and Winky doesn't write house elves with much depth at all. They're treated more like fairly intelligent dogs than sentient equals. BTW. I'm having tremendous amounts of fun discussing stuff like this with you guys. It's so rare to find a place to do this that isn't blindly supportive of whatever Rowling does.
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Feb 5, 2014 02:16
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Paragon8 posted:It's not quite like that though. Hermione's first experience with a house elf is through Dobby who is mistreated and abused by some awful people. Then she's told that House Elves are a pretty common institution and even her school uses them. Can you blame her for having such a strong reaction? Up until that point that's basically the reader's reaction. Oh, it would have certainly been nice to have a long plot based on Hermione's attempt to promote the rights of elves. Unfortunately I don't know that it would have been a good idea to include it in with the already massive books that Rowling was already writing just based on Harry's struggle with Voldemort. Ultimately her biggest issue is that she based her campaign on the experiences and knowledge she had gained from one elf rather than speaking to a larger group and then basing a plan of action in conjunction with them. That is, of course, a crazy amount to ask of a teenager so don't think I'm criticizing her as the white devil or whatever. Honestly I don't think it would be fair to criticize her for not focusing on the house elves because when it comes down to it the story was about Harry and his struggle and it just didn't have the length or whatever to focus on peripheral, world building things.
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Feb 5, 2014 02:46
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The whole plot would probably be fine if there was a "meet in the middle" kind of resolution. Hermione could find out that most of the House Elves are mostly fine with their situation and would just like a little recognition and respect. It would actually lead to an interesting plot where the lesson isn't "no no no, the working class actually DOES like working!"
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Feb 5, 2014 16:00
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Speaking as someone who is very working class (I'm not comparing it to slavery though, don't worry), I've gotta say I kinda agree with what people are saying about Hermione going about it the wrong way. Re-reading the books, it reminds me of the students spending their summer breaks marching and protesting the 1%, forgetting they're in the 20%* themselves, not really understanding the concept of having to work lovely, minimum wage, menial jobs for a living and, at the end of the day, not doing anything that would actually make a difference. I mean, Hermione is pretty much perfect so there's no doubt that her heart is in the right place. She's not 'just doing it for attention' or anything, and she does genuinely care, but it comes off as incredibly condescending towards the House Elves and is pretty much a joke among the magical community which, I think, is pretty true to real life. I wonder if in a hundred years, kids'll be writing essays on the themes of Harry loving Potter. *Made up number, but I hope you get my point. e: I'm not sure if I'm making this up, because I haven't finished my re-read yet, but I vaguely remember Hermione using her influence at the ministry to basically give the House Elves rights and poo poo. A workers union sort of thing, which is honestly pretty cool. e2: It would have been amazing if she orchestrated some sort of House Elf Revolution, which ended up having them take over all the bureaucratic functions in the ministry or something, but I'm thinking too hard about a book for kiddies. Saith fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Feb 5, 2014 |
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Feb 5, 2014 17:09
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A meet in the middle thing would be good, or like a deeper reason why house elves serve. Like give Hermione an opportunity to learn what that is and understand her mistakes. Just because it was a societal norm doesn't mean it's right. Maybe the house elves did need help to spearhead emancipation. Hermione's naive activism basically overshadows that house elves have a pretty lovely deal. Especially outside of Hogwarts which seems pretty clearly a unique employer. Remember how awful the Malfoys are to Dobby, I bet as much as Kreacher was fanatical to the House of Black they didn't treat him the best either, and the wizarding community readily accepted the house elf as a scapegoat for Voldemort's murder when he stole the Hufflepuff cup. For the most part house elves are treated as non-human 2nd class citizens enslaved by powerful ownership magic that supersedes their free will and are frequently physically punished. For all we know perhaps part of the magic that enslaves them predisposes them to speak positively about their role as servants. Hermione's initial attempts were misguided and awkward but there was ample opportunity to turn that into a real attempt to improve house elf welfare. Saith posted:e2: It would have been amazing if she orchestrated some sort of House Elf Revolution, which ended up having them take over all the bureaucratic functions in the ministry or something, but I'm thinking too hard about a book for kiddies. I'd have liked to see maybe a deeper explanation like house elves are fae tied to the hearth/threshold of certain dwellings and their power comes from those locations being orderly and such which translates to them functioning as servants. Yet some families forget that it's a symbiotic relationship and abuse the elves linked to their hearths. Or maybe Salazar Slytherin was jealous of the elves magical powers and did some kind of horrible spell to enslave them to humans but everyone forgot about it and Hermione reverses it and most of the elves in good situations are fine because they're OCD or something but it gives an opportunity for elves to escape a bad situation. oh god I'm writing house elf fan fiction - quick who do they have sex with? Goblins? Merfolk? Snape? Paragon8 fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Feb 5, 2014 |
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Feb 5, 2014 18:39
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I definitely agree with a "meet-in-the-middle" kind of solution being probably the best one and a lesson that might even have been helpful to people reading it.Paragon8 posted:oh god I'm writing house elf fan fiction - quick who do they have sex with? Goblins? Merfolk? Snape? Why not all of them?
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Feb 6, 2014 00:06
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I think what people might be missing is that the whole "they're fine with their situation! It's all they really know anyway!" was an argument for actual, real world slavery. The point of the storyline isn't that Hermione should have talked to the elves to find out their perspective, it's that freeing them would have been pointless because they have no place in Wizard society outside of their servitude. Hermione was eerily like actual people whose attitude was (and in some cases still is) "whelp, you're free now, time to bootstrap yourselves." You need to overhaul the entire system in order to really help them; in the end Dumbledor was basically still a slave owner even though he was a "kind" one.
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Feb 8, 2014 06:17
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Guy A. Person posted:I think what people might be missing is that the whole "they're fine with their situation! It's all they really know anyway!" was an argument for actual, real world slavery. Didn't Dumbledore provide salaries and vacation days and the like to the house elves at Hogwarts? That makes him much more of an employer than a slave owner to me.
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Feb 8, 2014 06:23
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jivjov posted:Didn't Dumbledore provide salaries and vacation days and the like to the house elves at Hogwarts? That makes him much more of an employer than a slave owner to me. I'm probably misremembering parts of it but my takeaway - particularly from Hermione's reaction to the situation - was that Dumbledore did more for them in general but they were still low class servants at the end of the day, and that their situation was far from desirable. I dunno, I'm definitely due for another read through; I just find it interesting how all of these conversations seem to tie together to form a overarching theme of the wizard world and even Hogwarts being kind of broken places. Hogwarts is certainly better on average but ultimately is still a product of the system at large. Dumbledore is flawed because he is still working within that broken system, Harry ultimately has to surpass him by changing the system (which unfortunately we don't see; but presumably he did as an adult at the Ministry).
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Feb 8, 2014 06:41
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I dunno, offering comfortable living quarters, and at least the offer of a generous salary and weekends off seems like they're just hired help, not low-class servants. Dumbledore treats the Hogwarts house elves like an employer should treat its regular employees. Sure they're working as cooks and other kitchen staff, but that's a viable job even in the
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Feb 8, 2014 06:45
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Wasn't Dobby the only one to get those benefits? I'm pretty sure I remember the other House Elves being disgusted at the thought of getting paid or having holidays.
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Feb 8, 2014 06:47
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returnh posted:Wasn't Dobby the only one to get those benefits? I'm pretty sure I remember the other House Elves being disgusted at the thought of getting paid or having holidays. While this does speak to the general awful-ness of the house elf lifestyle, I'm pretty sure the implication was that Dumbledore made the same type of offer to all of the elves in his employ. Forcing them to accept wages and holidays they don't want seems just as much of an imposition on them as forcing them to do anything else, really. Even if its for their own good.
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Feb 8, 2014 06:49
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Dumbledore offered Dobby a wage and Dobby negotiated it further down to a token amount, because even to Dobby a real wage was crazy. He just wanted the acknowledgement of freedom rather than the money. Guy A. Person posted:I think what people might be missing is that the whole "they're fine with their situation! It's all they really know anyway!" was an argument for actual, real world slavery. This is definitely the most chilling thing about Rowling's depiction of house elves is. Guy A. Person posted:I dunno, I'm definitely due for another read through; I just find it interesting how all of these conversations seem to tie together to form a overarching theme of the wizard world and even Hogwarts being kind of broken places. Hogwarts is certainly better on average but ultimately is still a product of the system at large. Dumbledore is flawed because he is still working within that broken system, Harry ultimately has to surpass him by changing the system (which unfortunately we don't see; but presumably he did as an adult at the Ministry). I think this is some of the most fascinating aspects when Rowling handles it competently. I found the massive bloated ministry focused more on maintaing status quo than taking action to be really relevant and a great allegory for today's governments. The Daily Prophet is a great takedown of modern media culture. That's why it frustrates me so much when she whiffs on a bad slavery metaphor. Everything is deeply flawed when you poke deeper into the world.
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Feb 8, 2014 14:46
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I would have been a lot happier if Rowling had portrayed the house elves as wanting a bit of respect but that Dobby was still an oddball for wanting wages - house elves are based on brownies, who, in traditional English folklore, helped around the house. However, brownies were capable of leaving a home if mistreated, or if offered payment. House elves are clearly enslaved brownies and should really have been more interested in agitating for respect than Rowling portrayed. On the other hand, this makes Hermione's failure quite clearly one of misunderstanding the beings she was advocating for - wages were entirely the wrong thing to focus on.
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Feb 10, 2014 21:49
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Jazerus posted:I would have been a lot happier if Rowling had portrayed the house elves as wanting a bit of respect but that Dobby was still an oddball for wanting wages - house elves are based on brownies, who, in traditional English folklore, helped around the house. However, brownies were capable of leaving a home if mistreated, or if offered payment. House elves are clearly enslaved brownies and should really have been more interested in agitating for respect than Rowling portrayed. On the other hand, this makes Hermione's failure quite clearly one of misunderstanding the beings she was advocating for - wages were entirely the wrong thing to focus on. Yes, that would have been much more in line of where Rowling was going with Dobby/Kreacher/Winky.
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Feb 12, 2014 01:07
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Well we're getting a Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them, will be someday get a Quidditch Through the Ages book? I'm not really sure how that would be done, unless it's just made into a magical sports movie following a ragtag group of underdog misfits. To be honest, a movie about the Chudley Cannons managing to overcome a centuries old Quidditch curse (I think Rowling insinuated once it was a literal curse) and win the Quidditch World cup could be pretty fun. Rupert Grint could cameo as some rabid fan whose painted himself orange and is crying manly sports tears as his favorite team wins the finals. ashez2ashes fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Mar 17, 2014 |
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Mar 13, 2014 08:20
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ashez2ashes posted:To be honest, a movie about the Chudley Cannons managing to overcome a centuries old Quidditch curse (I think Rowling insinuated once it was a literal curse) and win the Quidditch World cup could be pretty fun. Rupert Grint could guest star as some rabid fan whose painted himself orange and is crying manly sports tears as his favorite team wins the finals. With Kingsley as a supportive Minister for Magic it would basically be the plot to Invictus. Oliver Wood could be Matt Damon's character.
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Mar 13, 2014 17:58
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(It's been almost 7 years since the end of Harry Potter, can we get a title change?) Bloomsbury, the UK publishers of the books, are doing two sets of new editions this and next year. First there's the new editions with cover art by Jonny Duddle (check out his art style here), which will also include bonus material from Pottermore! All 7 are being released in September. Then there's the deluxe illustrated editions, with interior watercolor artwork (although no idea if this is for every chapter or what). These are coming out once a year starting next year. I kinda wish they'd combine the Pottermore stuff and the illustrations in the same editions, but oh well. I hope the illustrated ones will be nice hardcovers!
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Mar 20, 2014 11:59
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Hedrigall posted:(It's been almost 7 years since the end of Harry Potter, can we get a title change?) Gotta love cash grabs. Depending on just how many pages are illustrated, maybe I'll pick those up as they're released. I've always wanted a set of UK editions and this is the perfect excuse to re-read the series. Did anybody else see the trailers for the Wizarding World of Harry Potter expansion? http://thedisneyblog.com/2013/12/27/wizarding-world-of-harry-potter-diagon-alley-trailer-and-teaser-poster/
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Mar 20, 2014 14:56
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ashez2ashes posted:I'm not really sure how that would be done, unless it's just made into a magical sports movie following a ragtag group of underdog misfits. Moneyball... on Brooms.
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Mar 21, 2014 14:22
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I stand corrected. If anyone has just read JK Rowling's new lengthy write up about the history of the Quidditch World Cup on Pottermore and she's pretty much written plot synapsis to several intriguing Quidditch movies.
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Mar 21, 2014 18:42
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I wish they would just rename it Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone for future US releases
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Mar 25, 2014 07:43
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So this was pretty sweet. Also, I'm going through the books again, just started at the very beginning. In the Leaky Cauldron in book one, Quirrel shakes hands with Harry. Was that an error, since it hurts him like hell at the end of the book. In the movie, they just had him shrink away when Harry offers his hand as part of him being quirky.
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May 6, 2014 13:21
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At that point, he hadn't been actually possessed by Voldemort, so he was able to touch Harry without pain. I think.
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May 6, 2014 13:26
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Bad Wolf posted:So this was pretty sweet.
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May 6, 2014 13:57
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cptn_dr posted:At that point, he hadn't been actually possessed by Voldemort, so he was able to touch Harry without pain.
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May 6, 2014 14:08
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Lord Hydronium posted:Yeah, Voldemort only physically joined his head after his failure to break into Gringotts. Ah, gotcha. It's amazing how much you can forget between reading stints. Oh, but he didn't fail to break into Gringotts, he was just too late. That's pretty impressive for a non-possesed Quirrel to pull that off. It's never explained, but I assume the Imperious curse was involved. Also, that fake GRRM account is pretty entertaining, but I should have spotted that. Bad Wolf fucked around with this message at 14:16 on May 6, 2014 |
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May 6, 2014 14:13
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ufarn posted:Wasn't the actual GRRM, though. Yeah, he didn't mention rape once.
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May 8, 2014 14:31
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http://www.today.com/books/read-j-k-rowlings-new-post-latest-harry-potter-gossip-1D79887288 Because pottermore sucks. quote:Dumbledore’s Army Reunites at Quidditch World Cup Final
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Jul 8, 2014 17:15
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That's a better epilogue than the one we got I guess.
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Jul 8, 2014 17:29
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So JK is back to trolling shippers? I guess I approve.
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Jul 8, 2014 19:14
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I think it's more Rita Skeever continues to be a horrible human being who lies about any and everything to enhance the salaciousness of her writing.
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Jul 8, 2014 19:51
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howe_sam posted:I think it's more Rita Skeever continues to be a horrible human being who lies about any and everything to enhance the salaciousness of her writing. Also gently caress over people who are trying to get a job by claiming they are drunks.
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Jul 8, 2014 19:53
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That article is cool with me. I just went to the WB studio where HP was filmed and it rekindled a need to reread the series. I'm also pretty annoyed that I missed the opening of Diagon Alley at Universal by a few weeks. I have high hopes for the Fantastic Beasts series though.
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Jul 8, 2014 19:53
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howe_sam posted:I think it's more Rita Skeever continues to be a horrible human being who lies about any and everything to enhance the salaciousness of her writing. I could read an entire book of Rita-style writing. Maybe The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore would be a good charity book, like Fantastic Beasts was.
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Jul 8, 2014 20:26
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That's a hell of a lot of heteroness right there. Are we gonna get another word of god three months from now saying "Oh, Rita didn't want to mudsling about anybody's sexuality"?
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Jul 9, 2014 00:35
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Pidmon posted:That's a hell of a lot of heteroness right there. Are we gonna get another word of god three months from now saying "Oh, Rita didn't want to mudsling about anybody's sexuality"? You mean other than Charlie?
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Jul 9, 2014 02:38
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