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Rand Brittain posted:The only thing I thought was weird about Thud! was how Nobby gets into a perfectly happy relationship and everybody takes it for granted that they have to split him up because she's too good for him.
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Apr 26, 2014 18:20
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Rand Brittain posted:The only thing I thought was weird about Thud! was how Nobby gets into a perfectly happy relationship and everybody takes it for granted that they have to split him up because she's too good for him. Well she is basically described as the most stunningly beautiful person in the city, possibly even the world. It does raise an interesting point though of the question "What is happiness?". For example, the stripper was totally happy being with Nobby and Nobby was happy with her. However, the "girls" thought that there's no way she could possibly be happy with Nobby, and any sort of happiness she has is through ignorance. However isn't it Nobby that actually breaks up with her? I'm sure he says he was the one who finished the relationship because she couldn't cook? The girls don't say she was going to break up with Nobby, they say she left in a "thoughtful state of mind" or something. In which case who knows if she would have broken up with Nobby, but Nobby broke up with her due to the cooking, and then he ends up with the Goblin from Snuff who is an amazing cook. (If you needed that spoiler you are terrible and finishing reading the series). Unless she does break up with him and Nobby just says he thinks it was for the best, I can't really remember the precise ending to it all.
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Apr 26, 2014 18:26
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Kitchner posted:Well she is basically described as the most stunningly beautiful person in the city, possibly even the world. It does raise an interesting point though of the question "What is happiness?". The stripper was happy with Nobby because he was the only guy who expressed any real romantic interest in her. Other men were too intimidated to try because they thought she was out of their league.
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Apr 26, 2014 18:47
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Jedit posted:The stripper was happy with Nobby because he was the only guy who expressed any real romantic interest in her. Other men were too intimidated to try because they thought she was out of their league. Yeah I get that, but if you're totally happy due to ignorance, is it right to life the veil of ignorance and risk less happiness? Or better to stay ignorant and enjoy a happy life? 
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Apr 26, 2014 19:21
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Kitchner posted:Yeah I get that, but if you're totally happy due to ignorance, is it right to life the veil of ignorance and risk less happiness? Or better to stay ignorant and enjoy a happy life? It's a moot point, though, because Nobby dumped her. Imagine what her confidence would have been if she thought she was so ugly even Nobby didn't want her. 
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Apr 26, 2014 19:51
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Nihilarian posted:She thinks she's so ugly that no one will love her and it's tanked her confidence. Telling her what the real problem is might help her regain that confidence, and allows her to make an informed decision about her relationship with Nobby. If she dumped him then she'd be able to take a more active role in her love life, instead of waiting for the one guy who is dumb enough not to realize she's out of his league. That doesn't actually answer the question, because the question is a philosophical one. She WAS happy, there is no argument with that. By lifting her veil of ignorance, did they actually make her any more happy? Arguably not, but that doesn't mean it was wrong to do. The fact Nobby dumped her is almost irrelevant as I'm sure the characters would not even conceive the notion that Nobby would dump her.
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Apr 26, 2014 20:25
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Kitchner posted:That doesn't actually answer the question, because the question is a philosophical one. She WAS happy, there is no argument with that. By lifting her veil of ignorance, did they actually make her any more happy? Arguably not, but that doesn't mean it was wrong to do. A relationship where one partner thinks he/she is hideous and the other partner is only dating him/her out of pity is not a healthy relationship. It may not be abusive because it isn't intentional on Nobby's part, but it's a bad situation to be avoided.
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Apr 26, 2014 20:47
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Nihilarian posted:Ignorance is not a quality to be nurtured; confidence is. You seem to think that finding out she's physically attractive will somehow make her miserable, and I don't understand why. We don't even know whether or not she would have stayed with him. You're still not getting that is the whole reason it's a question without an answer. Who's to say that knowledge of the fact that she could have something better is better then actually thinking she is the luckiest girl in the world (even though she's wrong). It's just your opinion as there is no objective definition of what is better. The other three girls were all very attractive (in Cheery's case attractive for a dwarf) and yet none of them were as happy as she was, yet went out of the way to lift her veil of ignorance on the grounds that you just described. I'm not intending to get a huge debate started about whether it's better to be happy and ignorant or maybe happy and not, but that's the reason it's interesting, because there isn't an answer and it's a matter of opinion. So you'd probably do well to not post as if it's an objective fact that ignorance is somehow wrong.
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Apr 26, 2014 21:45
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Kitchner posted:You're still not getting that is the whole reason it's a question without an answer. Kitchner posted:It's just your opinion as there is no objective definition of what is better. The other three girls were all very attractive (in Cheery's case attractive for a dwarf) and yet none of them were as happy as she was, yet went out of the way to lift her veil of ignorance on the grounds that you just described. Kitchner posted:I'm not intending to get a huge debate started about whether it's better to be happy and ignorant or maybe happy and not, but that's the reason it's interesting, because there isn't an answer and it's a matter of opinion. So you'd probably do well to not post as if it's an objective fact that ignorance is somehow wrong. If she really loves Nobby and is happy with him, telling her changes nothing except that she gets more confident in herself. If she decides that she isn't that happy with him, well, now she has the tool necessary to find real happiness (again, confidence), in whatever form that takes. Nihilarian fucked around with this message at 22:34 on Apr 26, 2014 |
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Apr 26, 2014 22:27
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You really don't get it so I'll leave it there, maybe philosophy isn't your strong point. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 27, 2014 01:10
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Kitchner posted:You really don't get it so I'll leave it there, maybe philosophy isn't your strong point. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 27, 2014 01:26
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I just finished Raising Steam and I'm not quite sure what the fuss is about. It was a very solid story, even though it did start off a bit choppy. It was great to see the book eventually turn into a Watch/Moist crossover story. I think that the biggest issue in the direction of the series wasn't his Alzheimers, it was that he wasn't quite sure what he wanted the future of Discworld to be and how to show how much the world has changed with the introduction of the clacks, less reliance on magic, etc. With the new book deal and Rhianna's involvement in the world, I think he's gotten some firm ideas for the future developed and is focusing on laying the groundwork (quite literally, with the rails in this book). You could even make a comparison between the grags and readers who are so against the differences between the older and newer books that they'd be willing to see the whole series end rather than accept change. I don't think things are going back to the way they were before Thud!. It seems very much like that book was always planned as a deliberate turning point in the series. While his disease definitely threw a wrench in his plans, I think he's starting to get back on track and I really look forward to future books in the series.
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Apr 28, 2014 15:57
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Emerson Cod posted:You could even make a comparison between the grags and readers who are so against the differences between the older and newer books that they'd be willing to see the whole series end rather than accept change. I don't think things are going back to the way they were before Thud!. It seems very much like that book was always planned as a deliberate turning point in the series. While his disease definitely threw a wrench in his plans, I think he's starting to get back on track and I really look forward to future books in the series. I think you're reaching a whole lot.
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Apr 29, 2014 07:10
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Might be where I get my Pratchett talk (i.e. from my relatives and here) but I haven't heard anyone complain about any new direction to the narrative of the Disc. It's been pure writing quality stuff, like overexposition, poorer jokes, all that.
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Apr 29, 2014 18:28
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the JJ posted:I think you're reaching a whole lot. Maybe with the comparison of grags to readers, but I think my other point stands.
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Apr 30, 2014 04:57
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Emerson Cod posted:Maybe with the comparison of grags to readers, but I think my other point stands.
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Apr 30, 2014 15:14
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I don't really see a sharp dividing line. He's been writing for what, 40 years now, and been evolving constantly. There's a notable shift in sensibility from The LIght Fantastic to Sourcery for heaven's sake. Terry is not writing an entire book as a coded message to his fan base to make fun of them for freaking out about the next book that he's planning on writing.
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May 2, 2014 17:12
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Thud! was different from his previous stuff, but it was a good different that was recognisably him while being fresh and interesting. After that point is where his writing started to decline, I think.
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May 2, 2014 21:48
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If I had to pinpoint a turning point I'd say The Truth. There were books with a general theme of "[modern thing] comes to Ankh-Morpork" before but that was the first one that made clear the modern thing was here to stay. In books like Moving Pictures, Men At Arms or Soul Music it was always a foreign element and the plot was more or less centered about getting rid of it again.
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May 2, 2014 23:14
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My Lovely Horse posted:If I had to pinpoint a turning point I'd say The Truth. There were books with a general theme of "[modern thing] comes to Ankh-Morpork" before but that was the first one that made clear the modern thing was here to stay. In books like Moving Pictures, Men At Arms or Soul Music it was always a foreign element and the plot was more or less centered about getting rid of it again.
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May 3, 2014 03:14
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The Truth is pretty memorable for having Vimes and co in fairly antagonistic roles. Really interesting to get an outsider's angle on all those characters.
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May 3, 2014 04:14
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Hedrigall posted:The Truth is pretty memorable for having Vimes and co in fairly antagonistic roles. Really interesting to get an outsider's angle on all those characters. And Pin and Tulip were ----ing hilarious.
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May 3, 2014 04:55
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The Truth is actually one of my favorite Discworld books 
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May 3, 2014 05:45
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Yes, I quite like The Truth as well. Shame the main character has been side lined and made sadly very shallow in the later books due to the mans condition. Also, gently caress Alzheimers. We've not said that in a while.
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May 3, 2014 14:48
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I just finished listening to the ooold audiobook of Guards! Guards! (perhaps this is heresy in TBBm but I kind of wonder if that's the best medium for it, to be honest) and I thoroughly enjoyed the characters, particularly Carrot, Nobby and Vimes. (Oh and Death seemed pretty funny too.) The Discworld itself and the wacky fantasy stuff, I didn't like quite so much. I was far more invested in the human drama than the dragons. Based on that, is it worth me giving the next City Watch book a go? Will I get more of the stuff I like? Or will it be more of the stuff I won't?
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May 7, 2014 18:28
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VagueRant posted:I just finished listening to the ooold audiobook of Guards! Guards! (perhaps this is heresy in TBBm but I kind of wonder if that's the best medium for it, to be honest) and I thoroughly enjoyed the characters, particularly Carrot, Nobby and Vimes. (Oh and Death seemed pretty funny too.) The Discworld itself and the wacky fantasy stuff, I didn't like quite so much. I was far more invested in the human drama than the dragons. There's supposed to be a TV series about the Watch coming out too, not sure when, though.
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May 7, 2014 18:39
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Most of the Watch books are great. The very next one, Men at Arms is personally my favorite Discworld novel. Go forth and read!
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May 7, 2014 19:26
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VagueRant posted:The Discworld itself and the wacky fantasy stuff, I didn't like quite so much. I was far more invested in the human drama than the dragons.
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May 7, 2014 20:56
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Nihilarian posted:The Watch books are great, and a good place to start. I definitely recommend reading them. Does anyone know when that's happening? And is it going to be adaptations of the books or mostly new plots?
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May 7, 2014 23:23
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Sam. posted:Does anyone know when that's happening? And is it going to be adaptations of the books or mostly new plots? I believe they intend to stay away from the books.
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May 8, 2014 00:16
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Nihilarian posted:It's going to be CSI: Ankh-Morpork, but with fewer magical crime solving tools. drat. I'd kill to see Guards! Guards! on screen.
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May 8, 2014 01:07
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Nihilarian posted:It's going to be CSI: Ankh-Morpork, but with fewer magical crime solving tools. 
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May 8, 2014 04:44
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Hedrigall posted:The Truth is pretty memorable for having Vimes and co in fairly antagonistic roles. Really interesting to get an outsider's angle on all those characters. The Truth was the first TP book I read which made going back and reading the Guards books interesting for sure
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May 8, 2014 20:42
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VagueRant posted:I just finished listening to the ooold audiobook of Guards! Guards! (perhaps this is heresy in TBBm but I kind of wonder if that's the best medium for it, to be honest) and I thoroughly enjoyed the characters, particularly Carrot, Nobby and Vimes. (Oh and Death seemed pretty funny too.) The Discworld itself and the wacky fantasy stuff, I didn't like quite so much. I was far more invested in the human drama than the dragons. If you look at some of the stuff pratchett talks about he clearly likes fantasy, but he's basically using it as a tool to explore his own ideas about things. I think someone linked here a speech he gave on "Equal Rites" for men and women magic users, which then formed the basis of the book "Equal Rites". He talks about how much he loved fantasy books, and then he realised that women with magic who are powerful are always the bad guys, and good magical women aren't powerful like male wizards are. So he wrote Equal Rites which explores this very issue of why can't a woman be a wizard, or a man be a witch. It's quite funny as well because Discworld wizards are the opposite of traditional wizards (fat, lazy and generally not very good at actually DOING magic) whereas the Witches are usually 2 steps ahead of the wizards.
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May 11, 2014 03:24
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Kitchner posted:generally not very good at actually DOING magic More accurate to say that they're very good at not doing magic. The books point out more than once that the entire University is set up as a sort of bribe to keep talented Mages fat and happy. All the benefits of power, none of the work, and it's worth it because when Wizards did have to work they nearly destroyed the Disc in various magical wars. However when the need arises Wizards have, more than once, shown they posses a pretty terrifying aptitude. Like when Mustrum turned a bandit into a pumpkin with almost zero effort, or when The Faculty (probably mostly Ponder) managed to turn Vimes' coach into a cabbage powered race car. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 00:20 on May 12, 2014 |
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May 11, 2014 22:36
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Skippy McPants posted:More accurate to say that they're very good at not doing magic. The book points out more than once that the entire University is set up as a sort of bribe to keep talented Mages fat and happy. All the benefits of power, with none of the work, and it's worth it because when Wizards did have to work they nearly destroyed the Disc in various magical wars. Didn't they also stop the shopping mall from destroying Ankh-Morpork in Reaper Man?
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May 11, 2014 23:07
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Sam. posted:Didn't they also stop the shopping mall from destroying Ankh-Morpork in Reaper Man? The tried anyway, I can't remember who stopped it in the end. Yo!
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May 11, 2014 23:13
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I think it was Windle Poons and the Differently Alive support group.
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May 11, 2014 23:31
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Skippy McPants posted:More accurate to say that they're very good at not doing magic. The book points out more than once that the entire University is set up as a sort of bribe to keep talented Mages fat and happy. All the benefits of power, with none of the work, and it's worth it because when Wizards did have to work they nearly destroyed the Disc in various magical wars. I think Mustrum and Ponder and his students are very different though from the "usual" wizards. Mustrum is someone selected to be Archchancellor specifically BECAUSE he wasn't a typical UU wizard. Wasn't he a hedge wizard or something and got invited to the job? It implies that actually he doesn't use his magic but is totally capable of it. Ponder and his students are sort of more computer/science nerds, and do a very different form of magic. So vimes' coach for example is great at showing this, they tinker with something and as they put in the book "magic in it's end but not in it's means". The examination of that huge set of drawers which folds out into a tree is another example, it is inherently magical, but they aren't doing magic in the traditional sense. If you ignore Mustrum and Ponder, almost every occasion where the wizards could do some REAL magic they have a reason not to, whether it's because they forgot to bring useful spells with them or some other reason. If you compare that to the witches, specifically Granny Weatherwax, she uses her magic to fight stuff off all the time. The wizards use their magical knowledge where the witches actually use their magic (well maybe not Nanny Ogg so much). Nearly all the "witch victories" involve triumphing over the occult using some form of witchraft to subdue them. Whereas nearly all the "wizard victories" generally involve knowledge of the occult rather than the practice of it. That's how I see it anyway. I mean Rincewind, the only living wizard who was able to defeat a sorcerer, did it with half a brick in a sock.
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May 12, 2014 00:24
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And Witches, the good ones anyway, are the same. I like that Pratchett plays Magic on the Disc as a sort of Nuclear Option, where you can tell who the really powerful movers are based on how unwilling they are to actually take their gloves off and go all out, because to do so would mean causing more damage than they were looking to fix in the first place.
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May 12, 2014 00:26
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