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A Melted Tarp posted:They basically threw it together ad-hoc in a matter of weeks, not a lot of time to design failsafes. A squat switch either to activate, or to allow manual activation isn't a fail safe, it's a "don't-kill-everybody-and-bend-the-airplane-into-a-pretzel" feature. If they had fired those rockets another twenty feet up, they might all be dead. The sophistication of the rocket system also argues against the "lol we didn't have time" theory.
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May 8, 2014 01:14
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I read somewhere (Here?) that they needed to do it manually the one time to calibrate the timing for the automation system. I don't know if that makes sense.
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May 8, 2014 01:16
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FrozenVent posted:I read somewhere (Here?) that they needed to do it manually the one time to calibrate the timing for the automation system. This. It wasn't a USAF crew, it was a LockMart test crew that was trying to further calibrate the timing for the on board computer. I think my favorite part of that whole thing (and there are many) is that after the mishap they kept one of the modified airframes around to serve as a testbed for possibly incorporating some of the Credible Sport mods into the Combat Talon fleet as a whole. They determined that the Credible Sport setup was only suitable for its originally intended purpose because it did not have the necessary safety margins for any other kind of operations. My second favorite part is that the mods included a tailhook.  I guess they had concerns that they wouldn't be able to utilize reverse thrust to stop in time.
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May 8, 2014 01:26
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I thought the tailhook was for the post-stadium-rescue carrier trap?
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May 8, 2014 02:19
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So, just to be clear, the plan for Credible Sport was: Fly a bunch of Delta guys in modified C-130s from the continental US, do five aerial refueling operations on the way, do a low-level infiltration into Iran at night, do a rocket-brake landing into a soccer stadium, the commandos jump out and kick doors/shoot faces, bring the hostages back to the planes, then rocket-jump out of said stadium, survive a harrowing low-level flight out of Iran avoiding their now alerted air defenses, and do another landing onto a waiting navy aircraft carrier. In a C-130. Which has probably taken significant damage on the way out. All because finding reliable heavy lift helicopters and pilots was too difficult. 11 out of 10 points for style (  ), 0/10 for critical thinking.Even if they had managed to pull off the first eight parts perfectly, I predict they would have missed the arresting cable, went off the front of the carrier, and all surviving hostages and rescue party would have ended up dead, run over by the carrier.
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May 8, 2014 03:11
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Reminder: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar-poc38C84
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May 8, 2014 03:14
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Duke Chin posted:I thought the tailhook was for the post-stadium-rescue carrier trap? I'm sure that was the intent, but Herks are plenty capable of landing on carriers, no hooks or cables needed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uM5AI3YSV3M  And honestly, I feel like the arresting gear on a carrier wouldn't really be able to handle an aircraft of the Herk's weight. e: MRC48B posted:All because finding reliable heavy lift helicopters and pilots was too difficult. Well they tried the heavy lift helo thing, it just didn't end up well:  
iyaayas01 fucked around with this message at 03:23 on May 8, 2014 |
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May 8, 2014 03:17
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While we're on the subject of planes that don't usually do carriers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8HMPMYL19E
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May 8, 2014 03:20
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iyaayas01 posted:
That's what I was referring to.  I'm just confused why they didn't ask for any of the air force rescue squadrons, who probably had guys who spent years doing similar low-level hairy poo poo in Vietnam.
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May 8, 2014 03:35
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MRC48B posted:That's what I was referring to. Sort of why they created special forces command and such afterwards.
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May 8, 2014 03:38
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Oh yeah, familiar with this years and years ago - yet somehow always missed the part where they increased some of the latter tests where they increased payload to ~13 tons. iyaayas01 posted:And honestly, I feel like the arresting gear on a carrier wouldn't really be able to handle an aircraft of the Herk's weight. 
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May 8, 2014 03:40
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FrozenVent posted:While we're on the subject of planes that don't usually do carriers: Wow. This is pretty impressive actually- landing a plane with bicycle gear (that usually requires chase cars to get it down safely) on an aircraft carrier must be sketchy as hell. Especially considering how hard it is to land with the insane amount of lift it has.
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May 8, 2014 03:47
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Duke Chin posted:Oh yeah, familiar with this years and years ago - yet somehow always missed the part where they increased some of the latter tests where they increased payload to ~13 tons. On the other hand, I think the C-130 could make a good flying boat. Did they think of that?
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May 8, 2014 03:55
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hobbesmaster posted:On the other hand, I think the C-130 could make a good flying boat. Did they think of that? Yup. Both as a flying boat and a floatplane. 
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May 8, 2014 03:59
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I was wondering if ditching would be more reliable than landing on a carrier at that point...
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May 8, 2014 04:04
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Airplanes that don't belong on carriers? How about a Fokker F28? AirlineReporter.com (the website that Powercube writes for) actually published an article about this very thing just today; read it here.
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May 8, 2014 04:18
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FrozenVent posted:While we're on the subject of planes that don't usually do carriers: I was watching this and the first dozen or so landings... the pilot has no idea where the goddamn deck is. On the other hand, carrier takeoff probably involved pointing the ship into the wind, going to full throttle and waiting for the U-2 to depart vertically.
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May 8, 2014 04:18
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iyaayas01 posted:I'm sure that was the intent, but Herks are plenty capable of landing on carriers, no hooks or cables needed: I had to go back and check, but the copilot really was called Lt.Cmdr. STOVL
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May 8, 2014 04:20
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FrozenVent posted:While we're on the subject of planes that don't usually do carriers: U-2s are so crazy. Sometime I'm going to end up getting myself arrested trying to get a photo of one flying up in Marysville.
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May 8, 2014 04:24
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Slo-Tek posted:Yup. Both as a flying boat and a floatplane. Now if only they could have surreptitiously filled that Iranian stadium with water... Edit: Seriously, they should make one of those just because. There's already a billion versions of the C130 why not actually make a seaplane version? Duke Chin fucked around with this message at 05:28 on May 8, 2014 |
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May 8, 2014 05:07
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MrChips posted:AirlineReporter.com (the website that Powercube writes for) actually published an article about this very thing just today; read it here. Wow, praise from Cesar! I'll pass it along to my :sperge: friend. I keep trying to get my boss to let us do more military things. Speaking of military stuff, I'll be in Kazakhstan writing for another outfit in two weeks... I'll fill the thread with pictures of Mig-31BMs, and maybe a crappy selfie of me and Toktar Aubukirov.
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May 8, 2014 05:09
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MRC48B posted:So, just to be clear, the plan for Credible Sport was: Wait, what? I thought the idea was the SpecOps guys would be airdropped/infiltrate independently, get the hostages out and bring them to the stadium while the Herc was en route; then it would land, load passengers, and get back in the air ASAP to minimize the time the Iranian AF had to scramble fighters or whatever. If they were gonna do it this way instead, that's an even higher level of  than I already thought.
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May 8, 2014 06:39
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Fucknag posted:Wait, what? I thought the idea was the SpecOps guys would be airdropped/infiltrate independently, get the hostages out and bring them to the stadium while the Herc was en route; then it would land, load passengers, and get back in the air ASAP to minimize the time the Iranian AF had to scramble fighters or whatever. Regardless of specops infil, what other way would they get the herk into the stadium? Not like they can just truck it in then assemble it right quick.
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May 8, 2014 06:40
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Naturally Selected posted:Regardless of specops infil, what other way would they get the herk into the stadium? Not like they can just truck it in then assemble it right quick. I posted:then it would land, load passengers, and get back in the air ASAP As in, they'd be doing the wetwork while the herk was flying in, get to the stadium right as it rocket-brakes in, etc.
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May 8, 2014 06:45
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I think he's saying that the mad part is the landing, not the waiting round on the pitch
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May 8, 2014 06:46
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Brain blanked on that middle part of your post so yeah, I assumed that you were talking about actually landing the thing in the stadium. In my defense it's late and I'm dumb.
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May 8, 2014 06:48
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simplefish posted:I think he's saying that the mad part is the landing, not the waiting round on the pitch Oh I agree, but waiting on the ground in hostile territory for 30 minutes-several hours (however long the prison break would have taken) adds a ridiculous amount of conventional danger to the mission, on top of the batshit STOL shenanigans that are happening either way.
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May 8, 2014 06:53
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MrChips posted:Airplanes that don't belong on carriers? How about a Fokker F28?  Assuming the carrier is steaming into a headwind at full speed, most narrowbody jets can be landed on the deck with no arrestor hook and room to spare. And some of them can even take off again without help. A few years ago I got the opportunity to try this for myself in the visual scene that was part of this very project and was installed on another sim (for science, you see), and personally landed a simulated F100 on the deck of a simulated Enterprise. There is another aircraft type which I have done this in, and I will now proceed to get on ausgezeichnet's and everyone else's tits and say that that is also quite doable 
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May 8, 2014 09:12
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It looks like the F-35 might be ideal for the Coast Guard and Navy to deal with small inflatable enemyboats as the laser mod is progressing well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-6tbo8amfE [/sarcasm]
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May 8, 2014 09:53
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Fucknag posted:Oh I agree, but waiting on the ground in hostile territory for 30 minutes-several hours (however long the prison break would have taken) adds a ridiculous amount of conventional danger to the mission, on top of the batshit STOL shenanigans that are happening either way. Wouldn't they have had to bring more troops on the plane anyway to secure the planes/stadium while they were waiting for the embassy force+hostages to arrive. Eg Random police/army patrol passing the stadium when the Herc's landed, who'd probably take an interest?
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May 8, 2014 11:23
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Fucknag posted:Oh I agree, but waiting on the ground in hostile territory for 30 minutes-several hours (however long the prison break would have taken) adds a ridiculous amount of conventional danger to the mission, on top of the batshit STOL shenanigans that are happening either way. The Israelis did it in Entebbe, although they were at an actual airport.
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May 8, 2014 12:24
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Mortabis posted:The Israelis did it in Entebbe, although they were at an actual airport. The military strengths of Uganda and Iran aren't really comparable. Iran at that time had hot poo poo, flyable and armed F-14's.
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May 8, 2014 13:40
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That entire operation gave new meaning to the term clusterfuck. So many things went wrong on so many levels, it took a book to list them all.
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May 8, 2014 19:02
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Outside Dawg posted:That entire operation gave new meaning to the term clusterfuck. So many things went wrong on so many levels, it took a book to list them all. That reminds me, any recommendations for books on the whole Iran situation back then? Only thing I've read was All the Shah's Men, so if there's anything else good out there, I'd love to get my hands on it.
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May 8, 2014 19:55
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Naturally Selected posted:That reminds me, any recommendations for books on the whole Iran situation back then? Only thing I've read was All the Shah's Men, so if there's anything else good out there, I'd love to get my hands on it. Guests of the Ayatollah by Mark Bowden.
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May 8, 2014 20:06
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Sir Cornelius posted:Guests of the Ayatollah by Mark Bowden. Yep, this is a great book.
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May 8, 2014 21:04
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Duke Chin posted:Now if only they could have surreptitiously filled that Iranian stadium with water... There are crazier ideas...  Illustration by Stan Mott, who had a lot of other crazy designs. I'm sure some of you will enjoy his Russian aircraft. benito fucked around with this message at 22:51 on May 8, 2014 |
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May 8, 2014 22:13
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benito posted:There are crazier ideas... You should know I bust out laughing at this.
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May 8, 2014 22:16
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benito posted:There are crazier ideas... You can't go wrong with a desert-seaplane-carrier-tank-with-sharks.
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May 8, 2014 22:18
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Naturally Selected posted:That reminds me, any recommendations for books on the whole Iran situation back then? Only thing I've read was All the Shah's Men, so if there's anything else good out there, I'd love to get my hands on it. Not a book but there is a link to a PDF report on "Eagle Claw", here: http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA402471
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May 8, 2014 23:00
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