Ask Us About Military History: Remove Balls To Fire Blanks

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WoodrowSkillson: Feb 24, 2005; *Gestures at 60 years of Lions history*

HEY GAL posted:

This morning I came upon my roommate fletching in the sunlight and we had a nice conversation about archery. He had brought his Hungarian bow with him and I took a look at it. JaucheCharly, please PM me with your email address if you want to be put in touch with this guy. I told him about your work and he seemed impressed.

I imagine Jauche gets extremely excited whenever a new old bow is the topic of conversation.

# ? May 8, 2014 15:16

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# ? May 16, 2024 07:53

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Additionally Allied AAA had a tendency to be extremely trigger happy and shot down more than their fair share of allied air craft. IIRC during Normandy flight planners had to route air paths around the invasion fleet because the sailors would shoot at any plane above.

# ? May 8, 2014 16:21

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

Raskolnikov38 posted:

Additionally Allied AAA had a tendency to be extremely trigger happy and shot down more than their fair share of allied air craft. IIRC during Normandy flight planners had to route air paths around the invasion fleet because the sailors would shoot at any plane above.

Also "invasion stripes". Literally covering the underside of planes involved in Overlord in black and white alternating stripes so the gunners would not shoot at them. Worked. Mostly...

# ? May 8, 2014 16:23

The Merry Marauder: Apr 4, 2009; "But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own."

Not just Allied AAA, of course:

# ? May 8, 2014 16:25

Devlan Mud: Apr 10, 2006; I'll hear your stories when we come back, alright?

To be fair, during the last months around Berlin, there were some pretty crazy red and yellow checkerboard patterns on the bottom of German aircraft, since German AA gunners assumed that the Luftwaffe didn't exist when firing.

# ? May 8, 2014 16:42

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

Raskolnikov38 posted:

Additionally Allied AAA had a tendency to be extremely trigger happy and shot down more than their fair share of allied air craft. IIRC during Normandy flight planners had to route air paths around the invasion fleet because the sailors would shoot at any plane above.

How high could the ships shoot with their AA artillery?

Devlan Mud posted:

To be fair, during the last months around Berlin, there were some pretty crazy red and yellow checkerboard patterns on the bottom of German aircraft, since German AA gunners assumed that the Luftwaffe didn't exist when firing.

D-Day: June 6, 1944 -- The Climactic Battle of WWII posted:

"A Wehrmacht joke had it that if the plane was silver it was American, if it was blue it was British, if it was invisible it was ours."

# ? May 8, 2014 16:53

The Merry Marauder: Apr 4, 2009; "But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own."

Hogge Wild posted:

How high could the ships shoot with their AA artillery?

Depends on the gun. 35K for the 5"/38. Higher for the British 5.25".

# ? May 8, 2014 16:59

space pope: Apr 5, 2003

Bacarruda posted:

The Allies bypassed Dunkirk and did not attempt to retake the city, so there were German troops there who merrily plugged away at Allied aircraft. I interviewed a B-24 pilot who recalled being shot at by Dunkirk flak on several occasions returning from raids in Germany during 1944-1945.

I did my masters thesis on the french resistance. The memoirs of two maquis leaders, robert noireau and georges guinouin, both briefly discuss how their groups were absorbed into the reconstitued french army and sent to attack german holdouts on the atlantic coast. I dont remember where exactly they fought but there were other pockets that held out in france until 1945. Guiogouin called it forces francaises oubliee instead of the official title of forces frnacaises de l'oeust. (Forgotten french forces instaed of french forces of the west)

# ? May 8, 2014 17:17

Fragrag: Aug 3, 2007; The Worst Admin Ever bashes You in the head with his banhammer. It is smashed into the body, an unrecognizable mass! You have been struck down.

Not least of all, the Channel Islands were completely bypassed and only liberated after the war.

# ? May 8, 2014 17:28

FAUXTON: Jun 2, 2005; spero che tu stia bene

Fragrag posted:

Not least of all, the Channel Islands were completely bypassed and only liberated after the war.

Are the Channel Islands the ones that refuse to contribute towards UK/EU defense budgets these days?

# ? May 8, 2014 17:54

Taerkar: Dec 7, 2002; kind of into it, really

Raskolnikov38 posted:

Additionally Allied AAA had a tendency to be extremely trigger happy and shot down more than their fair share of allied air craft. IIRC during Normandy flight planners had to route air paths around the invasion fleet because the sailors would shoot at any plane above.

Such an incident occurred during the Invasion of Sicily and resulted in quite a lot of casualties (About 400 dead, I believe). They had a good reason to be concerned.

# ? May 8, 2014 18:31

gohuskies: Oct 23, 2010; I spend a lot of time making posts to justify why I'm not a self centered shithead that just wants to act like COVID isn't a thing.

Taerkar posted:

Such an incident occurred during the Invasion of Sicily and resulted in quite a lot of casualties (About 400 dead, I believe). They had a good reason to be concerned.

318 casualties, 23 planes shot down.

quote:

FRIENDLY FIRE�S DEADLIEST DAY
One night in July 1943, US guns at Gela, Sicily, hurled fire at unseen planes overhead. The result was the war�s worst friendly fire incident.

By Robert F. Dorr

Troop transport planes carrying American paratroopers careened all over the sky, bursting into flames, disintegrating, spraying men in all directions. �It was horrible,� recalls Charles E. Pitzer, who was a captain and pilot of one of the planes.

A day earlier, July 10, 1943, the Allies had landed 170,000 troops at Sicily in the largest amphibious operation to that point in history. Now, 2,000 paratroopers of Colonel Reuben Tucker�s 504th Parachute Infantry Regiment were scheduled to make up a second attack wave, jumping into the harbor city of Gela from C-47 Skytrains and C-53 Skytroopers (C-47s customized for parachute operations). Instead, fellow Americans would kill many of Tucker�s men in the greatest friendly fire disaster in American history.

The operation was codenamed Husky, the Invasion of Sicily, and it began on the night of July 9�10, with Pitzer and 226 other pilots dropping 2,200 paratroopers of Colonel James Gavin�s 505th Parachute Infantry into Gela. The 82nd Airborne Division, commanded by Major General Matthew B. Ridgway, thus launched the first-ever significant combat parachute assault by Americans. Several transport planes were lost, but that gave no hint of what was to come.

Amphibious landings started in the morning. German aircraft spent the day attacking the invasion fleet, fraying gunners� nerves. Ridgway, considered too old to parachute, reached Sicily by sea. He concluded that a second airdrop was unnecessary, but by then the momentum was unstoppable. A second drop, initially planned for the 10th, was hastily rescheduled for the 11th. One hundred forty-four C-47s and C-53s would carry the soldiers of Tucker�s 504th. An order was issued to ensure that ships would be informed about the paratrooper transport planes passing overhead. But many of the ships� crewmen insist to this day that they never saw the order. Incredibly, naval commanders told Ridgway the navy could not guarantee the safety of his force.

On the night of the 11th, the C-47s and C-53s lifted off from unpaved, dust-strewn runways around Kairouan, Tunisia, and flew toward Sicily. Pitzer remembers cruising at 400 feet, the altitude at which drops were made. �It was radio silence and lights out,� said Pitzer. Approaching the armada of Allied ships offshore from Gela, Pitzer and other transport pilots flew in V formations of nine planes each. Gunners aboard the ships had been shown recognition slides to help them distinguish aircraft types.

Twin-engine aircraft of similar appearance in these briefings included the C-47 and German Junkers Ju 88 bomber. But as darkness Infantry Regiment were scheduled to make up a second attack wave, jumping into the harbor city of Gela from C-47 Skytrains and C-53 Skytroopers (C-47s customized for parachute operations). Instead, fellow Americans would kill many of Tucker�s men in the greatest friendly fire disaster in American history.

The first two formations of transport planes followed their prescribed course and discharged their paratroopers squarely on target. These would be the only airborne soldiers to float down safely to the correct drop zone. When the next formation appeared over the shoreline, a never identified nervous gunner on the beach began shooting. Other scared gunners on shore and aboard ships sent volleys of fire lofting into the night sky.

Accusations would later descend on the gunners like artillery fire. Maurice Poulin, a coast guard seaman 1st class who manned a 20mm gun on the troop transport USS Leonard Wood (APA 12), calls the blame a �bum rap.� �We had been under attack by German dive bombers,� he says. �We did not know paratroop planes were coming.� Poulin went on to say that ships had orders �to elevate guns at 75 degrees and fire when attacked.� Crews in the gun tubs aboard the Leonard Wood sent their volleys of fire soaring skyward without seeing their targets. �We shot down many planes but had no knowledge of whose they were,� Poulin said.

Reuben Tucker was aboard a C-53 that began to disintegrate before reaching the shoreline. After a confused conversation between him and the pilot, the plane made a U-turn to fly back toward Gela. Under intense fire from friendly guns, Tucker and his paratroopers jumped. On the ground, he removed his helmet and banged it against a tank hull to alert the crew to stop firing on the planes.

It seemed as though every Allied gun battery on the Sicily beachhead and offshore was blowing C-47s and C-53s out of the sky. The US Army�s own official history reads, �The slow-flying, majestic columns of aircraft were like sitting ducks.� Dozens of transport planes were hit. One exploded in midair. Others, on fire, tried to ditch to save the paratroopers. Squadrons broke apart, tried to re-form, and scattered again. Eight pilots turned back for Tunisia still carrying their paratroopers. Those over Sicily dropped paratroopers wherever they could. Some of the jumpers descended into the sea and drowned. Some were killed by friendly fire while dangling from their chutes in the night sky. One transport plane caught fire and headed down, veering sharply to avoid hitting an Allied ship. Careening across the water, the plane trailed a long orange plume of flame as men, some of them on fire, rained from the fuselage.

At the time, the shoot-down over Gela was the worst friendly-fire incident in US history. Three hundred eighteen American soldiers were killed or wounded. Twenty-three transport planes failed to return; others limped back to Tunisia badly damaged, one riddled with 1,000 holes; many landed with blood all over their floorboards. Brigadier General Charles L. Keerans, Jr., the 82nd Airborne�s assistant commander, was aboard a plane that was lost at sea.

Why did Americans kill so many of their own that second night over Sicily? Gunnery fire-control systems were inadequate and training was poor; gunners needed better preparation in aircraft identification, and pilots needed more practice in night formation flying. Improvements would come, and a year later, they would bear fruit in the Invasion of Normandy.

# ? May 8, 2014 19:11

Power Khan: Aug 20, 2011; by Fritz the Horse

WoodrowSkillson posted:

I imagine Jauche gets extremely excited whenever a new old bow is the topic of conversation.

Oh sure, sure. Woodworking, bowmaking, fletching, leatherworking and shooting are great things to spend your time with. I'd guess hunting too, but I don't have experience with that.

This old guy is doing the lord's work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyejbipavWw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdB59FWQpN8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0Nbb7g9jTQ

# ? May 8, 2014 19:24

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

It surprised me how difficult it was to draw that guy's bow. Once again, I am reminded how being an archer is a lifetime commitment, while I could teach a guy to shoot a musket in a day if I wanted to, it's just pick up a thing and put it down.

# ? May 8, 2014 19:30

Cyrano4747: Sep 25, 2006; Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

HEY GAL posted:

It surprised me how difficult it was to draw that guy's bow. Once again, I am reminded how being an archer is a lifetime commitment, while I could teach a guy to shoot a musket in a day if I wanted to, it's just pick up a thing and put it down.

If all you're interested in is making a single man fire a single musket, sure. But that's kind of like saying that it's piss easy to train a roman legionary - it's just stab stab, hack hack.

Teaching our hypothetical musketeer all of the various drills and maneuvers that will allow him to participate as an effective part of a militarily viable unit (whatever is appropriate for whatever era and nation we're talking about under the blanket of "musketeer") is something else entirely.

# ? May 8, 2014 20:26

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

Cyrano4747 posted:

If all you're interested in is making a single man fire a single musket, sure. But that's kind of like saying that it's piss easy to train a roman legionary - it's just stab stab, hack hack.

Teaching our hypothetical musketeer all of the various drills and maneuvers that will allow him to participate as an effective part of a militarily viable unit (whatever is appropriate for whatever era and nation we're talking about under the blanket of "musketeer") is something else entirely.

It would be like this except with musketeers:

# ? May 8, 2014 20:33

Power Khan: Aug 20, 2011; by Fritz the Horse

Being able to draw a bow, doesn't mean that you can shoot it. Same as being a physically strong guy doesn't automatically make you a good fencer/fighter.

When I put two bows together to feel what a #75 bow would feel like to draw, I almost shat myself.

# ? May 8, 2014 20:36

the JJ: Mar 31, 2011

Cyrano4747 posted:

If all you're interested in is making a single man fire a single musket, sure. But that's kind of like saying that it's piss easy to train a roman legionary - it's just stab stab, hack hack.

Teaching our hypothetical musketeer all of the various drills and maneuvers that will allow him to participate as an effective part of a militarily viable unit (whatever is appropriate for whatever era and nation we're talking about under the blanket of "musketeer") is something else entirely.

Sure, but that requirement doesn't include a ridiculous amount of continual strength training, and a good archer is also going to have to train in all of the above, plus, if they're mounted, horsemanship and accuracy from horseback as well. The musket didn't takeover the battlefield in an instant but it killed archery pretty dead pretty fast.

# ? May 8, 2014 20:36

uPen: Jan 25, 2010; Zu Rodina!

Hogge Wild posted:

How high could the ships shoot with their AA artillery?

I like that quote and a similar one Antony Beever uses in a few of his books.

quote:

British planes - we (the germans) duck, American - everybody ducks, German - nobody ducks.

# ? May 8, 2014 20:45

Power Khan: Aug 20, 2011; by Fritz the Horse

the JJ posted:

Sure, but that requirement doesn't include a ridiculous amount of continual strength training, and a good archer is also going to have to train in all of the above, plus, if they're mounted, horsemanship and accuracy from horseback as well. The musket didn't takeover the battlefield in an instant but it killed archery pretty dead pretty fast.

Yes, yes. Check out this:

http://mandarinmansion.com/articles/jiangnan-qing-military-examination-results%20medium.pdf

Peter Dekker recently dug out some pricelists for bows and arrows from 1802. The final article might be very interesting once it's published, especially if there's some comparison to what that stuff costed in the Ottoman Empire, or really anywhere else.

http://www.manchuarchery.org/bow-and-arrow-prices-1802

Arrows are kinda expensive. Whatever they manufactured for the arsenals, I don't think it was of such a high quality that one arrow costs almost as much as worker makes a day. The ottoman war arrows that are on display in the museums here are of variing quality. Although being produced in bulk, some look really well made (barreled pine shafts with sinew binding, sanded hardwood nocks and cherry bark at the foot = labour intense), others made of reed are much more simple without all that. A nice touch that they all have is the red or (orange?) paint at the head, so that you can find them in the field and re-use them.

Lead is always cheaper than that. What does a musket in the 30yw cost and how much does a worker make a day?

# ? May 8, 2014 21:13

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

JaucheCharly posted:

Yes, yes. Check out this:

http://mandarinmansion.com/articles/jiangnan-qing-military-examination-results%20medium.pdf

Peter Dekker recently dug out some pricelists for bows and arrows from 1802. The final article might be very interesting once it's published, especially if there's some comparison to what that stuff costed in the Ottoman Empire, or really anywhere else.

http://www.manchuarchery.org/bow-and-arrow-prices-1802

Arrows are kinda expensive. Whatever they manufactured for the arsenals, I don't think it was of such a high quality that one arrow costs almost as much as worker makes a day. The ottoman war arrows that are on display in the museums here are of variing quality. Although being produced in bulk, some look really well made (barreled pine shafts with sinew binding, sanded hardwood nocks and cherry bark at the foot = labour intense), others made of reed are much more simple without all that. A nice touch that they all have is the red or (orange?) paint at the head, so that you can find them in the field and re-use them.

Lead is always cheaper than that. What does a musket in the 30yw cost and how much does a worker make a day?

Pretty interesting!

Here are some prices I posted earlier:

Hogge Wild posted:

Weapon and armour prices and income for farmers in early 17th century England:

Pair of flintlock pistols 45s
Cuirass 26s
Lance armor 80s
Prosperous farmer per year 800s
Labourer per year 180s

Surprisingly cheap. But of course it was mass produced.

Sources:
http://faculty.history.wisc.edu/sommerville/361/361-02.htm
http://medieval.ucdavis.edu/120D/Money.html

And musket was about 17s.

# ? May 8, 2014 21:29

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

"S" is shillings there, right?

# ? May 8, 2014 21:46

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

Arquinsiel posted:

"S" is shillings there, right?

Right o guvnor.

# ? May 8, 2014 21:47

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

I kind of want to try work out what all that'd be in modern terms now, given how recently we stopped using those.

# ? May 8, 2014 21:49

Chamale: Jul 11, 2010; I'm helping!

Arquinsiel posted:

I kind of want to try work out what all that'd be in modern terms now, given how recently we stopped using those.

Translating costs over the centuries doesn't tend to work out very sensibly. You can see that a musket is roughly 1/10th of a labourer's annual pay, so you might ballpark it at �1300, but obviously that money can buy a much wider variety of useful things now than it could 400 years ago.

# ? May 8, 2014 22:11

Groda: Mar 17, 2005; Hair Elf

Arquinsiel posted:

"S" is shillings there, right?

solidi

# ? May 8, 2014 22:20

Hogge Wild: Aug 21, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Pillbug

Arquinsiel posted:

I kind of want to try work out what all that'd be in modern terms now, given how recently we stopped using those.

Here's a link to some kind of calculation of the worth of a 1630 shilling in 2011: http://www.measuringworth.com/ukcompare/result.php?year_source=1630&amount=0.05&year_result=2013

Groda posted:

solidi

Correct.

# ? May 8, 2014 22:23

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

Hogge Wild posted:

Here's a link to some kind of calculation of the worth of a 1630 shilling in 2011: http://www.measuringworth.com/ukcompare/result.php?year_source=1630&amount=0.05&year_result=2013

That's way more sensible than I was being. Thanks.

Gives a wide range of possibilities, so that it'd be worth anything between �115 to �28k-ish.

Looking at those Chinese numbers to try work out a comparison kind of requires me to go work out what silver costs now and then in England, but is that price difference between arrows and crossbow bolts a typo? It seems like a literal order of magnitude in the difference.

# ? May 8, 2014 22:52

Eej: Jun 17, 2007; HEAVYARMS

JaucheCharly posted:

Oh sure, sure. Woodworking, bowmaking, fletching, leatherworking and shooting are great things to spend your time with. I'd guess hunting too, but I don't have experience with that.

This old guy is doing the lord's work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyejbipavWw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdB59FWQpN8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0Nbb7g9jTQ

How big was the difference in effectiveness between arrows made in your workshop or whatever versus the ones where you've been running around for months and have to fletch new arrows whenever you aren't currently being shot at or marching? Like if you lost or had to retreat from a big battle and couldn't retrieve any of your arrows, was your quiver going to be full of unreliable duds that just fly sideways and 100 metres short of where you want them to go?

# ? May 8, 2014 23:32

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Hogge Wild posted:

It would be like this except with musketeers:

Please stop doxxing me.

# ? May 9, 2014 00:15

Handsome Ralph: Sep 3, 2004; Oh boy, posting!
That's where I'm a Viking!

Mustang posted:

Really interesting man, it's a shame more American's don't know who Nathanael Greene was considering his role during the revolution.

He was born in Rhode Island, and as such, we were constantly taught about him in grade school (and later on college, but not as much).

Still, a shame more people don't know about him.

# ? May 9, 2014 03:46

Kemper Boyd: Aug 6, 2007; no kings, no gods, no masters but a comfy chair and no socks

Devlan Mud posted:

To be fair, during the last months around Berlin, there were some pretty crazy red and yellow checkerboard patterns on the bottom of German aircraft, since German AA gunners assumed that the Luftwaffe didn't exist when firing.

During the Ardennes counteroffensive, the Germans took some substantial casualties because the Luftwaffe strayed into the airspace above V2 installations.

# ? May 9, 2014 08:17

Power Khan: Aug 20, 2011; by Fritz the Horse

Eej posted:

How big was the difference in effectiveness between arrows made in your workshop or whatever versus the ones where you've been running around for months and have to fletch new arrows whenever you aren't currently being shot at or marching? Like if you lost or had to retreat from a big battle and couldn't retrieve any of your arrows, was your quiver going to be full of unreliable duds that just fly sideways and 100 metres short of where you want them to go?

The tools that you need to make these arrows aren't large. You need a pocket plane, cabinet scraper, a sharp knife, a small saw, a handdrill and 2 jigs, one for shaving, the other for sanding and an arrow straightener. The jig that I use at home is just 70cm long and really nothing more than a plank that holds the arrow in place for you to shave off material. Reed is an obvious material for mass production, since you only need to dry and straighten it. When you use pine or other wood, you need to saw a seasoned log into (what is the right english word?) small square diameter scantling, which will be rounded with the plane. To do the sawing, you'll need a powered saw (by a bunch of guys or water) and a fence so that it runs perfectly straight, you can't do that by hand (without a jig or fence). So that's rather uncomfortable if you're in a hurry, but you could pack such a sawing jig on a cart. If I had to come up with something, I'd go for 3 men to operate, the whole thing would fit on a breakfast table.

You can also use sprouts to make arrows. Hazel, etc.

Tldr; There's plenty of material around that you could use for a mediocre/poor job, and the tools to do it are small enough to be carried around in a backpack. You're not shooting at individual targets over more than 50m anyway, at least not with subpar equipment or for great effect. Even with complete poo poo equipment, you can hit stuff at 30m. (For reference what's possible with extremely fine equipment, check out at what distances Traditional Korean archery shoots)

Downside: seasoning takes time though, about a month per inch thickness, and you don't cut the log before it's dry, as uncontrolled drying will twist wood, especially if you saw it into small diameter pieces. So going on campaign, you will transport logs for that job with you, and ofc a big load of ready-made arrows (You need to keep those dry). It's probably a good question how many arrows the individual soldier carried.

If you lost your battle, lost your supply train, you're in trouble and most likely out of ammo/arrows soon. But losing the supply train is probably a very bad thing to happen anywhere, anytime.

Sidenote: A few years ago, I saw a 200 or 300 year old, water powered sawmill on tv, the whole machine was made of wood and really complicated. One side function was really interesting: The mill pushed a smaller, already sawn log through a sharp steel splitter that looked like a grid when facing it, the pieces that came out were basic scantling. It wasn't this one: http://www.gemeinde-thallwitz.de/verzeichnis/objekt.php?mandat=77571 , but similar, somewhere in Austria or Switzerland. Here is another one: http://www.badische-zeitung.de/belchengebiet/ein-historisches-kleinod-hat-geburtstag--5818693.html

Arquinsiel posted:

Looking at those Chinese numbers to try work out a comparison kind of requires me to go work out what silver costs now and then in England, but is that price difference between arrows and crossbow bolts a typo? It seems like a literal order of magnitude in the difference.

I'd suspect that the crossbow in question here doesn't have a composite prod. Maybe steel or a bamboo lamination. Those quing arrows are very large and heavy, they have unusual long fletching, meaning that you need selected feathers. From a bird of prey, or vulture. So that's definitely expensive, compared to feathers from animals that people keep at home for meat/eggs.

Power Khan fucked around with this message at 10:41 on May 9, 2014

# ? May 9, 2014 10:28

Rabhadh: Aug 26, 2007

I wonder what proportion of arrows delivered had to be rejected due to lovely quality ones being sneaked in the bags.

# ? May 9, 2014 11:02

Power Khan: Aug 20, 2011; by Fritz the Horse

Arrows and bows were standardized, so there isn't much variation. Delivering poo poo while being on a contract with the ottoman state is something that I wouldn't try. Unless you like the bastinado or getting your head chopped off. I do not know if irregulars or allied cavalry were reviewed as strictly as sipahi or janissary troops. A sidenote that I read implies that reviewing went into decline from the 1600s onward.

Oh, btw, there was another article about the inheritance of a ottoman bowyer from 1705 http://www.tirendaz.com/en/?page_id=316, here we learn that a tartar bow is worth around 81 Ak�e. So how much could 1 Ak�e from 1700 be worth?

Oh, wow: http://pierre-marteau.com/wiki/index.php?title=Prices_and_Wages_in_the_Ottoman_Empire%2C_1469-1914

e: Something is wrong. A skilled worker makes 38 Ak�es a day in 1700, and a tartar bow would cost 81 Ak�es?

Power Khan fucked around with this message at 13:29 on May 9, 2014

# ? May 9, 2014 12:38

Agean90: Jun 28, 2008

JaucheCharly posted:

Arrows and bows were standardized, so there isn't much variation. Delivering poo poo while being on a contract with the ottoman state is something that I wouldn't try. Unless you like the bastinado or getting your head chopped off. I do not know if irregulars or allied cavalry were reviewed as strictly as sipahi or janissary troops. A sidenote that I read implies that reviewing went into decline from the 1600s onward.

Oh, btw, there was another article about the inheritance of a ottoman bowyer from 1705 http://www.tirendaz.com/en/?page_id=316, here we learn that a tartar bow is worth around 81 Ak�e. So how much could 1 Ak�e from 1700 be worth?

Oh, wow: http://pierre-marteau.com/wiki/index.php?title=Prices_and_Wages_in_the_Ottoman_Empire%2C_1469-1914

e: Something is wrong. A skilled worker makes 38 Ak�es a day in 1700, and a tartar bow would cost 81 Ak�es?

How much would somethng like a loaf of bread cost? That seems like a good way to establish how many Akces is a lot of Akces.

# ? May 9, 2014 17:53

Power Khan: Aug 20, 2011; by Fritz the Horse

I think this here looks interesting: http://www.pierre-marteau.com/currency/indices/ottm-02.html

"Okka is the standard measure of weight. 1 okka = 1,283 kilograms ; 1 cheki = 175-195 okka = 225-250 kilograms"

We can take the price of foodstuffs as reference, for 1700 26,2 okkas of olive oil cost 7,94 Ak�es, 1702 you can buy 42 okkas of wheat for 5,06 Ak�es. Does that sound about right?

This seems to point in a similar direction, although prices from 1640 are given. 9,9kg of bread for 16 Ak�es, which is quite expensive, but the 1630s and following decades are a time of economic crisis. There is also mention of wages comparable to what the link in the previous post stated.

So 81 Ak�es is probably right for a bow, being the equivalent of ~672,3 okkas of wheat.

e: bad editing

Power Khan fucked around with this message at 19:56 on May 9, 2014

# ? May 9, 2014 19:28

my dad: Oct 17, 2012; this shall be humorous

Huh, I remember Oka as a measure of weight and volume from a few old folk tales. Didn't know it was of Turkish origin.

my dad fucked around with this message at 19:55 on May 9, 2014

# ? May 9, 2014 19:52

Power Khan: Aug 20, 2011; by Fritz the Horse

A few turkish words found their way into our vocabulary. I don't know if okka is one. Maybe somebody knows more? E.g. In Germany, the word Kadi is an alternative word for court that people sometimes use. An Imam who worked as a judge was called Kadi in the Ottoman Empire.

# ? May 9, 2014 20:01

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# ? May 16, 2024 07:53

my dad: Oct 17, 2012; this shall be humorous

JaucheCharly posted:

A few turkish words found their way into our vocabulary. I don't know if okka is one. Maybe somebody knows more? E.g. In Germany, the word Kadi is an alternative word for court that people sometimes use. An Imam who worked as a judge was called Kadi in the Ottoman Empire.

Oh, quite a few Turkish words penetrated Serbian language during the centuries of Ottoman rule*. I just wasn't aware that Oka is one of them. Kadi (Kadija) isn't used here normally, but thanks to its appearance in fairly important literary works and a couple of jokes, everyone's aware that it means 'judge'.

*And, apparently, a couple of Serbian words entered Turkish language and got all the way to India due to trade routes, but nowhere near as many

# ? May 9, 2014 20:08

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